Mazda RX-8

qbrozen

pretty generous of them if you ask me.

graphicguy

I agree. Obviously, I took the money and free maintenance.

gee35coupe

On some clean used RX8's pretty soon.

carliker

I posted most of my buyback option experience in another RX-8 discussion.

Edster444 - Have you heard from the third party Mazda is using to take care of this? I got a call from a place called Impartial Services Group which is handling the buyback program shortly after I sent my letter back certified. They told me the amount to be refunded, and at first, it was short. They missed the licensing fee refund ($425.75). Small miss, huh? And it's awfully difficult to get a hold of these third party reps too...though they do eventually get back to you when you leave voice mails. I would recommend using e-mail as well. They respond better that way. Interest on your loan is not covered so you will lose a few bucks (but the time period of owning the car for free offsets that amount). Plus, GAP insurance (or other insurance) is not refundable. The dealership slid that one in even though I didn't need it. Next time, I'll be more careful.

The whole principal amount that you have paid and the amount you should get back from that has left me puzzled. I'm going to contact the bank to see how that works. Don't even try to have the third party explain this. They are clearly just working on the money Mazda needs to refund. I received an e-mail with the documents I needed to sign and fax to the third party agent. I did that and received another confirmation e-mail. Someone from your dealership will call you and work the details in returning the vehicle. That is when you receive your check. This is also when you can take a swing at someone for your frustration. Just kidding!
 
Habitat1 - You are completely right about the Honda S2000. If you are able to deal with the two seater, it is the ultimate choice to make. Also, I like the way Honda distributed the car with class....without turning out so many vehicles at a time. It remains an exclusive car (which is unheard of for the reasonable cost of the car). The Mazda RX-8 distribution seems to be turning into how a domestic car would be sold. Heavy rebates and the car just came out. What's with this inventory these dealerships have? This was NOT the car to get at MSRP (if there ever is one). I admit making a mistake, and thank goodness, I can walk away from this.

Graphic Guy - You seem to have a very good attitude about your purchase and that is great! My poor experience with the RX-8 isn't intended to dampen your positive one. I was just as excited about this vehicle back in March and up to the time I received it. You seem to have a good relationship with your dealership and that is a rarity with Mazda. Mazda dealerships are typically filled with high turnover vulture sales people that will sooner forget about you after a sell. There is such an obvious difference between a Mazda dealership and a BMW/Infiniti/Mercedes. I'm not saying all of the latter dealerships are great, but through my experience (having a Z3 before the RX-8), I was treated with more respect and class at a BMW dealership...where it didn't matter if you had a $35K car or an $85K car. You felt exclusive. At the Mazda dealership, I felt like I was an ant among many. BTW, when I called to cancel my unwanted GAP insurance, the finance people at the Mazda dealership told me that it wasn't necessary for me to call them more than once. Geez, I was only calling again to make sure you received the signed letter you told me to fax. Rude people!

Bottom line - Mazda can't seem to be honest with anything and feel that they can gain market share by keeping people in the dark. I was very positive about Mazda like graphicguy at one time, but I'm sick of this crap! I just want to know what I'm buying. How can you do research when everything the magazines have is based on false information? The HP numbers may just be numbers, but to me, it tells a whole different story. Bad management! If they could be wrong about this, they could be wrong about how often you need to change the oil or anything else. And by that time, you would be stuck with this car (and probably upside down due to the deappreciation of this vehicle). With that said, I'm more than glad to return it.

Gbfrozen - If I can get over this bad car buying experience, I might get the new S2000 in November. The displacement will be increased to 2.2 liters and torque will be more. Interior changes will have a greater fit while the exterior is planning to be changed mildly. The Revs won't go up as high, but it will be converted into more of a comfortable, daily driver. The lack of torque is the only thing that kept me away before. This may be the perfect car now. An increase of HP might be left for the following year if not added in the 2004 model. Since it's the wintertime, dealers should be willing to deal! Sorry for this extremely long message!

qbrozen

I just wanted to make a couple of comments. First, what rebates are you talking about? There are no rebates on the car currently. If you are referring to discounts at particular dealership, that is different and is not a "rebate."

You are trying to compare luxury dealerships with a mostly economy-car manufacturer. Your particular dealer sounds worse than usual, but I don't think any Mazda (or chevy, ford, chrysler, toyota, honda, etc, etc) dealer is going to give you the service that a top luxo brand does. I can tell you there is a world of difference between my Honda dealer and my Volvo dealer. But I accept that as the way it is. And just as they deal with me differently, I have to deal with them differently.

And, finally, you say Mazda can't be honest about anything? Uh.... they openly confessed to inflated HP numbers and are making good on it. I can't think of how they can be more honest than that.

Hopefully your S2000 will be a better choice for you and you enjoy your new car. Hopefully you will find a decent Honda dealer. Personally, I've found they are pretty tough to come by.

mazdafun

I think they're being very forthright and generous. Say compared to Toyota and their denial of issues with engine sludge (though they finally implemented a "customer satisfaction" campaign after they started getting a lot of bad publicity from owners of affected vehicles, but still didn't admit to any fault in engine design, which they changed after the complaints started coming in). Hyundai finally got caught this past year for overstating HP for a few years on ALL their vehicles. I didn't hear too much complaining about that, and they didn't offer any compensation either if I recall correctly (someone else can check...I'll admit to being too lazy to follow this up). And there are serious concerns about Nissan's output claims for the Altima, Maxima and 350Z.

Dealer experience varies greatly, and can vary amongst the various departments. I have the luxury of 3-5 Mazda dealerships near me, 3 of which have decent sales groups. The service departments are OK (one got rough for a few years, but has improved the past couple years...still nothing compared to the Saturn service dept which my wife took her SL2 to), but their title departments aren't up to snuff. You'd think they'd want to complete their sales, but I've rarely seen such incompetence in filling out routine paperwork. Sheesh.

graphicguy

Lots of information...some of it misinformation.

Currently, there's about a 2% rate of those who are retruning their cars according to Mazda. They have about 3,000 total RX8s that are affected. That means that they will buy back about 60 cars...not that many. The "buy back" cars WILL NOT GO INTO THE USED MARKET. They will be made available only to Mazda employees.

I asked Terry (rroyce) over at the "Real World Trade-In Value" thread here at Edmunds what effect this would have on the RX8 resale. He's a hi line used car dealer that buys/sells cars. If any of you have ever ventured over to that thread, you'll know how good Terry really is with these types of assessments. He's been "dead on accurate" on my used car values twice. In short, he's very good. He said that he had only seen a few used RX8s at auction and that they were going at or near MSRP. He also said that used RX7s, that were in decent shape, with 100K miles go for the top end of used market (in his words, "they get ALL the money"). While he did say that no one can predict new cars future values 36 months down the road, he said not to worry about resale on the RX8. I take his word as gospel when it comes to these types of questions. Folks, these cars hold their value well.

Regarding rebates on the RX8, simply, there aren't any. The vast majority that are being sold are at MSRP. They are in short supply in much of the country. Most dealers are selling all they can get their hands on. There have been sporadic reports here and there, that there are "tons" of them available at this or that dealer, but when you try to confirm, all of a sudden, those cars don't exist.

brozen...while I'm trully sorry about the problems you're having, it sounds like most of it can be attributed to your particular dealership. I sincerely hope things work out to your satisfaction.

On the other hand, I was treated better at MY MAZDA DEALER than I was at the Infiniti dealer when I was still looking at a G35. I've owned two BMWs (3 Series) and have seen no difference between the way I was treated by BMW to the way I'm treated by my Mazda dealership. Matter of fact, I've probably been treated a little better by Mazda. Everyone at the dealership and everyone at Mazda RX8 Customer Service have been great.

I'm hearing some disatisfaction from some folks, but when push comes to shove, it's difficult to "unwind" a car deal. The variables are many and charges and rules with various banks, in different locales, with different tax rates and rules are difficult to figure once you take all the variables into account. But, I do believe that Mazda is trying very hard to do just that.

I really am quite pleased the way this thing has played out between Mazda, the dealers and the way I've been treated.

carliker

Gbfrozen - I made a mistake, I meant discounts...not rebates! And if the Mazda dealership I went to couldn't be worse enough, a post in one of the RX-8 discussion boards told of getting an RX-8 at the same dealership I got mine (same version too) for $1600.00 lower than MSRP. I paid MSRP just two months ago. They ARE discounting these cars (and I'm in Indianapolis - Midwest). I could see a few hundred dollars off, but $1600.00? The car has just been out for two months! I'm sure there will be rebates soon as well.

There is absolutely no reason why econo cars couldn't maintain a dealership like those luxury cars do. The economy car manufacturers are trying so hard to compete performance wise with the luxury brands, why don't they also try to compete customer service wise (or at the dealership).

Graphic Guy - Be weary of the numbers Mazda gives you about vehicle return. I'm not sure where you get those numbers. They look similar to those given by a Mazda spokersperson in a news release. I question those. You must have a super Mazda dealership where you are.

Mazdafun - I bought a Mazda. I don't care about other manufacturers and whether they would have been more honest or not. Don't give Mazda any honesty points for letting us know about the HP, though, since people were already questioning it. And as you might recall, there were independent dyno tests questioning the Miata which basically forced Mazda to say something. You are right when you said they could be like Hyundai and not do anything. However, look what you are comparing it to. Hyundai autos are trash cans with wheels and I don't have to tell you about their quality control. When I bought a Mazda RX-8, I thought I was getting something special. Hence, pay MSRP. I was wrong. This is the car that was suppose to "revolutionize" the car market and bring Mazda back up from the doldrums. I heard the same thing about the Altima and Maxima which you shared, but those weren't supposedly groundbreaking vehicles and no one pre-ordered or paid MSRP for those cars. I haven't heard any questioning of the 350ZX, however.

qbrozen

i have no problems. Don't think you meant to address that to me, did you?

graphicguy

Believe me, if I thought I could get an RX8 for $1,600 off or maybe even $1,000 off, I would have seriously considered sending mine back and bought a new one. Please, don't believe everything you read on the internet. I've got 3 other good friends trying to buy RX8s right now. One is in Orlando, one is on the West Coast and another in New Orleans. As soon as I hear some "tidbit" of information regarding some big stockpile of RX8s or some discount I read about on the net, I call the places (if named) so my friends may be able to find one. Conversation usually goes like this:

me: I hear you've got xx numbers of RX8s in these colors. Can you tell me about them?

dealer: where'd you hear that?
me: internet

dealer (usually laughing): Oh...you're the 3rd call today regarding what someone said on the internet. we don't have any now, but should be getting some in next month. I can take an order if you're interested?

me: what about the pictures of some on your back lot I saw on the net?

dealer: son, we got our last allotment in and whatever you saw as far as pictures are concerned would be the deliveries for orders. these allotments come in bunches and it takes us a while to prep all of them for delivery. so, we store them on our back lot until we can contact the people who ordered them and before we get them into service for delivery.

me: What are you selling them for?

dealer: all our cars are ordered at MSRP. We don't mark up the cars like others do. we might cut you a deal on a yellow one that's a "stripper" with an automatic, though. You interested.

me: no, but thanks for your time.

Moral of the story, most of those reports on the internet of some spectacular deal are just that...stories. If there's one thing I've learned in 25 years of buying cars, people mostly lie about what they paid, particularly somewhere as annonymous as the net. Everyone likes to fashion themselves as a "shrewd" negotiator.

My take on all of this? Glad you asked. You've got one side that wants bo buy and RX8 but wants some huge discount to do it. Can't get it at their dealer, so lets post all over the net that there are discounts to be had....an, oh by the way, I saw 100 of them in stock at ABC Mazda dealership, so they must not be selling well.

2nd take is there are those that bought competing cars, have seen all the accolades about the RX8 and have decided to add a little FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) about the car, its price, RX8s are slow sellers, etc. to make their purchase look better.

carliker, I do hope this turns out OK for you, but really, you are beginning to sound like you're some sort of conspiracy theorist.

brozen...sorry, no none of this is directed towards you.

gee35coupe

or Thornton in Atlanta. I'm sure you'll get a discount.

rorr

Yeah.....I heard they're all marked at $1600 under MSRP right there on the windshield.

And for a limited time, every buyer gets a really nifty coffee mug and keychain...

gee35coupe

But I have seen several RX8's out on the front waiting for buyers. Along with a lot of dusty Mazda6's. Last time I was there I couldn't find a single Mazda6 with 5 speed and sunroof combo.

graphicguy

Just did contact them....MSRP selling price. Sales guy did say he had that yellow stripped model in an automatic for $25,700 (that's list price, folks).

timadams

A couple of comments:

I don't have a crystal ball regarding sales or prices into the future, but I have to offer a counter-argument to Habitat's analysis of Mazda having trouble selling 12,000 RX8's a year compared to Honda selling far fewer S2000's. I think there is a much bigger market for a 4-seater hardtop sports car like the RX8 than a 2-seater convertible sports car like the S2000. Unless you want to buy one as a third car, a convertible 2-seater is impracticle for many people. More than 2 people...forget about it. Winter...let's take the sedan. Golf clubs...don't fit unless you put them in the passenger seat. The RX8 can still be used in all of those situations, at least if you believe the pictures I've seen with golf clubs in the trunk (I'd have to try it myself to be sure).

Having the back seats with the clever back doors opens up the RX8 to an entire new market segment...those who need rear seating on occassion. I will seriously consider an RX8 for my next car, but I won't consider a 2-seater.

Note I am not slamming the S2000 or 350Z in any way - they are both great cars - but my take is that Mazda has created something that will appeal to many people who won't buy a 2-seater. My main concern with the RX8 is depreciation. Will RX8's resale value drop as fast as other Mazdas, or will it hold its value better? Nobody will know for a couple of years, but the S2000 likely holds the edge in depreciation.

dtran2149

I am considering both the manual w/ GT package listing at $31.1k and the manual w/ Sport package listing at $28.3k. What has been the experience of the group on whether the extra $$ is worth it primarily for the leather seats, moonroof, and power seats? Are you able to adjust only 4 ways with the manual seats?

graphicguy

My GT package is definietly worth it. Don't forget, you also get the fine BOSE stereo.

graphicguy

Don't forget that Mazda has already sold 6,000 of these units and the car has only been out two months.

Honda's not stupid. The market for 2-door coupes is tiny. They knew that and made a concious decision not to make many S2000s.

carliker

That $1600.00 discount was posted by someone in one of the RX-8 discussions. They made a mention of buying one in Indianapolis (where I bought mine). Yes, they could be full of it, but their word is just as good as anyone else's here until proven otherwise. You can call the Tom Wood Mazda dealership in Indianapolis to find out. The discount just wouldn't surprise me.

Graphic, I have no reason to throw out conspiracies about this car. I ordered this in March and was a strong supporter of this vehicle. I wanted nothing more than to be happy about this purchase. You are beginning to sound like one who is denial. Remember, you still have a few days left for the buyback!

audia8q

graphicguy is correct about the buyback cars not going to the used car market. They will be used for promo's, mazda employee purchases, testing, etc...

Also...I spoke to mazda yesterday and they have 28 people who have signed the buyback forms. Mazda also informed me that 30-35% of those will be buying a different RX-8...ie different options, color. We have delivered 12 RX-8's and we have not had any takers on the buyback offer...
But, we did sell one to a guy who purchased one at another dealer and he turned it in and purcahsed one in a different color and with navigation from us....loved the car but decided he wanted velocity red and more options.

carlike...remember, one of the worlds biggest lies is what somebody claims they paid for a car. Do you know anyone who bragged about paying MSRP or more??? hahaha I'm not calling anyone a liar but I've been in the biz a long time and see it everyday!!

carliker

Being a Mazda salesperson, it doesn't surprise me you'd come up with those results. Can we have anyone that is a little less bias? Do you actually expect a Mazda spokesperson to comment accurately on the amount of buybacks? It's funny because I read in an Autoweek.com article a few days after the letter came out that a Mazda spokesperson said 31 people had decided to return their cars. Yeah, it's only 3 people, but why the discrepancy if you just spoke with a Mazda rep today? I'm not calling anyone a liar but I've been in business for a long time and see it everyday!!!

rorr

31 people 'deciding' to return the cars and 28 people who actually signed the buyback forms doesn't sound like a discrepancy to me. Perhaps 3 people simply changed their minds?

r2s2

>That $1600.00 discount was posted by someone in one of the RX-8 discussions. They made a mention of buying one in Indianapolis (where I bought mine).<

That poster said SPECIFICALLY that he did NOT buy his car where you said you bought yours. Why are you saying he did? Hmmm. I think we know why you're here, don't we, "carliker." And pretty soon now we won't play with you under this name, either.

graphicguy

It sounds like your biggest "beef" is paying MSRP for your car. It also sounds like you'd be happy if you had received a $1,600 discount.

Well, if you take advantage of the Mazda $500 and free maintenance, you'd more than make up for that $1,600. So why not take advantage of the money/free maintenance deal?

I'm thrilled with my car. I did consider giving it back. Drove all the competitors. I was always glad to get back into the driver's seat of my RX8. I've already told Mazda that I was taking advantage of the money/maintenance.

carliker

R2D2 - I posted that before the poster you mention said Westfield specifically. He said Indianapolis in an earlier post (if you cared to check). There is only one Mazda dealership in Indianapolis (Westfield is a suburb of Indy). I also ASKED him if it was Tom Wood Mazda right after that post. Hence, he replied. Knowing it's another dealer doesn't change the fact he still got a $1600.00 discount off of an RX-8 in my area....unless you think he lied. I could have very well got my car there. My point stays the same. The dealership he bought his RX-8 at was charging $1000.00 over MSRP during the pre-order time. I can imagine that some of those buyers aren't too happy. BTW, R2, are you part of the edmunds.com discussion committee? I didn't know you were able to decide who "plays" here. Didn't you hear about the undisclosed sum I'm getting from edmunds to keep the discussions going? Where did you even come from? And lastly, please tell me why I'm here since you seem to know. I send my deepest apologies though if you are a salesperson at Tom Wood Mazda...and you got your feeling hurt.

Rorr - 31? 28? Who knows? All I know is the Autoweek.com article said 31 decided to get the buyback option. I don't know if I've been counted yet! I just find it funny when Mazda sales guys come on here and debate. Even if there were less than 10 people giving back the vehicle, it would not change my plans.

carliker

I'm still not certain if all dealerships will provide free maintenance for four times a year or twice a year like Mazda states in the auto book. Does anyone know for sure? That would determine if it's worth $1100.00 or not.

"It also sounds like you'd be happy if you had received a $1,600 discount."

Duh!

r2s2

Why are you here? Why, to bash Mazda, of course.

rx8zoomster

"There's gonna be a deal...On some clean used RX8's pretty soon"

The cars that will be bought back will not be sold to the general public. They will be offered to Mazda employees.

As for the topic, keep or buyback. I'm taking the cash & scheduled maintenance. I love the car, and it has been performing flawlessly. No problems with performance lag, oil light problems, and I'm averaging 18 MPG in city (right in line with EPA rating).

gee35coupe

the car ha only been out for 2 months. They are trying to sell 25,000 of them acording to a previous link. There should not be inventory on the lots. Time will tell but I bet there will be some discounting in the near future. I mean they held the line on Mazda6's for a while too.

habitat1

timadams: For the record, the S2000 comfortably holds my golf clubs, large duffle bag and various other odds and ends in the trunk. I carried my golf clubs around when I was shopping and the S2000 was the easiest fit, compared to the Boxster Z3/Z4, SLK, etc.; the latter of which can't accomodate anything with the top down. I have even gotten a second set in a travel bag in the trunk. That said, I agree that the RX-8 is more practical car - the S2000 is indeed a third car in our two driver household.

Regarding market potential of the RX-8 vs. the S2000, as I see it, the S2000 didn't have to "expand" the market for two seat roadsters. What it seems to have done successfully is steal market share from the $35-$45k+ Z3/Z4, the $45k-$60k Boxster/S, the $40k-55k+ SLK230/320/32, the Auti TT cabriolet and a few others. And, with the exception of the Boxster S, its better performing than all of the more expensive European alternatives. I am sure there are even a few S2000 owners that graduated from Miata's that, fully equiped only cost about $8k less.

For the record, I still haven't driven the RX8 but I like it in principal. The idea that Mazda would do something different than produce just another lost in the crowd econobox or coupe is to be applauded. And, frankly, I think they should be applauded much more than Nissan for it's lame efforts to reincarnate the spirit of the 240Z with a car that weighs 300 lbs more than my 1995 Maxima and uses the same low rpm engine that makes it's rounds through almost every model in the Infiniti/Nissan lineup. The 350Z may be a very good mass market car, but a true to the 240Z mission fun to drive sports car it's not.

My issue of market potential for the RX8 remains, however. Added practicality or not, the RX8 is still a bit of a specialty car in a fairly crowded field of coupes. It may be the most innovative of the group, but innovative doesn't translate into high volume sales, given the conservative nature of the car buying public. And the RX-8 probably won't pull down market share from the high end European rivals the way the S2000 has. Example, I bought the $32k S2000 over the $58k Boxster S without giving up much in performance. But I don't expect too many $50k M3 coupe buyers to get swayed to the $31k RX8.

If I were Mazda, I might lower my sales targets a bit.

rroyce10

...... Good post, you make some great points here ..

        Personally, I think the RX8 will do fine .. everyone wants a sport coupe of some type or another, but what holds them back is the storage, the Saturday shopping, the "no place to go" with the briefcase deal, dry cleaning, golf clubs and it ends up being the 3rd vehicle. But with the suicide doors, 3/1/2 seats and some easier storage this could prove to be a winner ..

          As far as the "buy backs" are concerned, some are legit concerns and some aren't .. the same as the any new vehicle that hit's the market, TT, S2000, etc, I hear a noise, the vehicle was misrepresented, etc, etc .. the reality is, some folks put an order in on a vehicle, then check their economic situation later, it happens aaall the time, they just don't post it .l.o.l.

        The "buy back" vehicles are being sold just like any other vehicles, they sell them for a small discount, run them through the auctions for other dealers, etc .. Right now, the RX's are pulling ultra strong $$ at the block, the base ones are doing around $25ish and the loaded up ones are doing around $32/$33ish, which is about MSRP, kinda reminds me of the early Miata days, most of the buyers are like the Lexus, "Toy Store" types ..

         As far as big discounts are concerned, maybe, maybe not - I'm a little more inclined to think not, I read alot of the posts on different topics and it's always funny to read how dealers are selling CL55's for $500 over invoice, Murano's for a $1,000 loss and Audi Cabriolets for $100 over cost .l.o.l... sometimes, I think there is a little bit of a credibility barrier going on .. .. but then again, I don't get out much. What they might be worth in 12/20 months is anyones guess ..

                       Terry.

mazdafun

Claimed: 287HP 278lb-ft

Dyno: 229.5HP 213.3lb-ft

From here: http://dynoperformance.com/

Click on "search" and click your way to Nissan 350Z and "all years". This is for a stock 350Z.

Still a heck of a sports car, but the dyno results are pretty shy of claimed output. I think Nissan's been playing the overstated output game for a while and they haven't had their toes put to the flames for it enough.

graphicguy

Terry....thanks for the "words of wisdom". Hope ya don't mind....I've been "using your name in vain" in this thread.

As always, thanks for the input. Some
"chicken little hysteria" going around.

Just as an FYI...Mazda has come out and said that they will offer the buybacks only to Mazda employees. Doubt you'll see any of these "buybacks" at the auctions or used markets unless the Mazda employees decide to sell them there.

carliker...truth is, you've got your $1,600 discount + if you take the Mazda offer of $500 and free maintenance (which has been conservatively valued at $1,500-$2,000).

If you don't like your current dealer, which it sounds like you don't, then go to another dealer and ask them what their service schedule will be for the "free service" offer.

Mine has said they'll follow the "severe use" schedule. The service manager has also said that Mazda isn't going to give him any pushback if I come in asking for free service/parts for wear items like windshield wipers or brake pads.

carliker

Yeah, I think the difference in our dealerships is a big reason why we disagree on some of these issues. If the service department at your dealership is going to use the stict policy for maintenance, then I agree about the money you will save. Actually, the service department at my dealership seemed to be very courteous...though I will have to check on what their policy is about which schedule maintenance they will follow. I wish you luck.

Mazdafun - That is interesting about the 350ZX. Yet, it is just one dyno test with one 350ZX. Still, it may be a reason for concern since Nissan has had a history (Altima, Maxima) in overstating HP output. I don't know if I'd feel comfortable buying a Nissan. At least Mazda admits when they have overstated.

r2 - I may be criticizing Mazda, but not bashing them. I'm not saying their cars are junk. I still think the RX-8 is a great car. I just decided to take the buyback option.

gee35coupe - They are only making 12,000 in the U.S. this year. 30K next year. Whether there are inventory in the lots or dealers pre-selling what they have on order, I just don't like the impression. I still haven't seen another one on the road where I live. However, I don't see that lasting very long.

graphicguy

In all seriousness, good luck no matter what your decision or which direction your next car purchase takes you.

qbrozen

um... correct me if I'm wrong, but you're comparing the published HP numbers from Nissan (which, like all manufacturers, is measure at the crank) vs. the numbers obtained at the rear wheels on a dyno, right? Those numbers won't match on ANY car.

habitat1

I don't mean to challenge your credibiity, but what dealer on what planet gave you those service cost figures?

I checked into this for my S2000 and subsequently as I look to replace my sedan, since some competitive models offer free maintenance, others do not. For my S2000, regularly scheduled maintenance over the first 50,000 miles will run roughly $600 ($175 for 15k & 45k and $250 for 30k). Even adding 7,500 mile service intervals 4 more of those at $75 each would only take the figure up to $900. I have not included the cost of Mobil 1 for the oil changes - which costs me an extra $25 to buy and hand the dealer, but I get a $10 credit back for the dino-oil, so it nets to only $15. Service costs provided by Sheehy Honda, Alexandria VA.

The value of Mercedes or BMW regularly scheduled maintenance is even less, since they do not perform it until the service lights illuminate. Want an oil change before 12-15k miles and you will have pay for it yourself.

Anyone who thinks that regularly scheduled maintenance for 4 years and 50,000 miles is worth anywhere near $1,500 to $2,000 needs to check their math. If you drive 12,000+ miles per year, you probably don't need the 7,500 miles services other than an oil change. If you drive less, you won't get to 50,000 miles before the 4 year clock is up.

The free maintenance is worth something for sure. But my actual analysis of a Honda S2000 would indicate about 1/3 of your "conservative" estimate. If Mazda's cost three times what Honda's do to maintain, they've got a bigger problem than a horsepower restatement.

carliker

Very well put!

rroyce10

..... Naah, don't mind a bit, actually my g/f does it all the time .. ;-)

         Actually a finite few of these have already run through as MSO vehicles at the auctions in FL ..

                       Terry.

mazdafun

Especially for an MT-equipped vehicle. A 20% (57.5HP) loss in HP and a 23% (64.7lb-ft) loss in torque? That's more along the lines of an AT-equipped car!

Regardless of rating, the 350Z still achieves very good acceleration and feel, which is really what matters most. And yes, dynos can be set up to move results one way or the other. I'm sure there are several other posted results that vary, but this one is done by a fairly neutral party.

The point I'm making is I think Nissan has been overstating the outputs of their engines for several years and very little noise has been made about it, compared to the flames Mazda has been getting. Even Hyundai got off lightly, though most folks don't really buy them for high power (though they were touting the engine in their Elantra as the most powerful in its class for a little while...only a few months before they got nailed for inflating their estimates).

Click on the "details" button next to any test. You'll get the full results, including their estimates of output at the flywheel (including an estimated drivetrain loss, which they post). The 350Z's estimated output at the flywheel is 273HP v. 287HP. Hmm. Still 14HP (-4.9%) missing? Compared to 9HP for the RX-8 (-3.5%)? Where's the uproar?

But aside from that, the engine in the 350Z is still nice. Lots of torque. Nice flat torque curve. Nissan just needs to be taken to task for inflating their numbers.

qbrozen

fair enough.
just making sure we're looking at the right numbers.

carliker

Those are interesting numbers you have on the 350ZX. I don't know why there isn't an uproar about that. What does it take until a car manufacturer is liable for misquoting HP/torque like Nissan has? Obviously, Mazda felt they should do something...whether it had to do with brand reputation or legal matters. I wonder how long Nissan will get away with this before it soils there reputation.

carliker

graphicguy

Here are the service costs as stated directly from my dealer and the ones they will do for free with Mazda's money/free maintenance option (4 years/50,000 miles):

-oil change every 5K miles is $25/ea. 10X$25=$250
-tire rotation every 5K miles is $20/ea 10X$20=$200
-1 air filter replacement @ 35K miles = $15
-1 tune up at 35K miles = $169
-brake fluid line flush and fluid replacement every 30K miles at $59/ea
-1 transmision oil replacement every 30K miles at $59/ea = $118
-1 differential oil replacement every 30K miles at $49/ea = $98
-1 cabin air filter replacement every 25K miles at $20 ea. = $40

Numerous adjustments, inspections at various intervals = $100

That looks like $1,000 to me for maintenance from my dealer. Add in the $500 that Mazda is giving and you're at the $1,500 total dollars that I'm getting in the form of a debit card and free service.

Note: This is the service that my dealer said they would do for free. They also said they would charge Mazda for any wear items like brake pads and wipers that aren't even in the maintenance menu in the Mazda owners manual.

You can debate the maintenance figures my dealer charges, you may be able to find the maintenance cheaper or you can say you'd do the maintenance yourself. I'm using the sheet from my dealer regarding what they would have charged me if I didn't opt for the free maintenance plan. My dealer also said they would do the 50K miles maintenance and charge it back to Mazda as long as I got the car to them before the 48 months or 50K miles had been exceeded.

timadams

habitat, good point about the S2000 appealing to buyers who cross-shop more expensive roadsters. If I were in that market, I'm pretty sure I'd do what you've done and buy the S2000 and pocket the rest. Honda's reputation for reliability, miminal depreciation and building fantastic engines and manual transmissions is a prime reason for the success of the S2000.

I guess where we differ is how we view the RX8, which is not surprising given that it's a new and clever concept. I see it as appealing to those who are shopping 2-seater sports cars AND those who are shopping 4-seater sports sedans. But mostly it creates a new market for those who WANT a sports car but need extra seating every once in awhile...and not pretend extra seating like in a lot of 2+2 cars where there is zero leg room, zero headroom and you have to be a contortionist to get in the back. Your view is that creating a new concept makes it risky to sell a lot of units. My view is that Mazda has recognized a viable niche and will sell more units because of that. What number per year is reasonable? I don't know, but I'd guess that 12k a year is easy, but 30k units a year will probably be hard.

I guess I have to offer up a big admission that I may not know what the heck I am talking about in praising the back seats: I say all of this without ever having sat in an RX8. Is or is not the back seat useable for passengers? Just kids, or adults? Small adults or 6-footers? (My local dealer said they had gotten zero RX8s in so far when I visited to look at the Mazda6 last month, and they had none to look at. I'll have to stop in and see if they have any now.)

graphicguy

Regarding the back seat....first, it's way easier to enter/exit the back seat with the suicide doors compared to a regulay 2-door coupe.

There are indentations in the back of the front seats for rear seat passengers so their knees don't hit the front seats. While there's room for a 6 footer (like myself) to fit comfortably back there (in addition to having cup holders and a storage area between the back seats), the windows are tiny and only "flip" out. You might not want to take a 6 hour trip while seated in the back, but to go to the golf course, out to dinner with another couple, take a short 2 hour trip, it's fine in the 2nd row.

I fit 5 bags of groceries, plus a Sam's Club sized package of paper towels (16 pack) in the trunk just last night.

Of course, I always sit at the controls in "first class" when I'm in the car.

mazdafun

I don't fit. I'm 6' but more torso than average, so my head gets squashed down. An average 6-footer will fit, especially if someone short-legged like me sits in front of them.

Access is fairly easy. Not as easy as with a full door, but way easier than w/o the "freestyle" door.

However, the visibility out is limited and can feel claustrophobic. Some might find it cozy. Some might just get carsick.

graphicguy

While I don't think it's acceptable to "fudge" the HP numbers, it seems to be a common practice to quote "best possible HP" from the manufacturers. In fairness to the different car makers, there's as many different ways to "tilt" the dyno numbers to get what you want as there are colors in the rainbow.

One of my previous cars was a 300M...a fine car for what it was supposed to do, but it sure didn't feel like a 250HP car according to my "butt dyno". That certainly didn't make my enjoyment of the car any less.

But, taking any car, as a whole, the HP numbers are really such a small part of measuring the performance of the vehicle, that it's not that big of an issue. Performance can be affected by so many things...weight, gear ratios, tires, suspension (all the HP in the world isn't going to do you a bit of good if you can't put it to the pavement correctly), tranny, etc. Plus, their's the dynamic feel of the cars....something that the RX8 offers up in spades. All these things go into the performance of the car and ultimately, your enjoyment of it.

I had heard of the Nissan HP discrepancy a while, ago. I didn't mention it as I know that some of the crowd owning the G35 and 350Z would end up here. I like those cars and woudln't do anything that would be construed as disrespect to their rides. There's also some "talk" that the Nissan 3.5 V6 as used in the Maxima, Infiniti FX, 350Z, Altima have actually no differences and that the weight of the cars and gearing are the only reasons that different performance parameters are noted.

That's why I have high regard for Mazda. They could have said "HP numbers are within the acceptable range". Instead, they stepped to the plate and made strong offers to the initial purchasers for what amounts to little more than numbers on paper...certianly nothing that will affect its real world driving dynamics.

Bottom line, if you like the RX8, your decision should be an easy one. We've already heard from an expert that resale, more than likely won't be affected. You may be angry because you feel you paid too much, but I'm an early adopter and expected to pay MSRP for the RX8 (I was the first person I knew who bought an HD TV...I always buy the fastest CPU when buying a computer). Will there be some discounting from MSRP on the RX8? Yes, eventually, but I don't think we're quite there yet, regardless of the "supposed" deals that are being posted on the net. Maybe next year you'll be able to get $500, $750, maybe even $1,000 off an RX8. For right now, the talk of alleged "deals" and huge stockpiles of RX8s are all noise, however.

In the meantime, instead of waiting for some super deal that may or may not happen, I'm enjoying my RX8.

qbrozen

just wanted to point out (before people jump all over you, graphicguy) that you'd only get one tranny fluid replacement and one diff. fluid replacement in the 50K miles.

STILL, its over $900, so no need to split hairs. $1400+ is WAY better than Mazda telling the owners to "stick it".

superbone

I just wanted to let everybody know that the buy back process is going very smoothly for me so far. I'm really impressed with Mazda's offer and the way they've handled themselves.

I just signed the agreement detailing the money specifics. The only money I'm out is the interest on the loan to date. $286 isn't too bad for a 2 month rental on a brand new car.

Anyway, wanted to impart the details to everybody. For the record, I love the car. I just can't justify the MPG for my 100 mile daily commute. Viva Mazda!