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Comments
Is it? You've just described how a typical piston engine displacement might be measured (volume compressed per revolution). Why wouldn't a rotory be measured the same?
I believe SAE measures displacement as 'amount of air/fuel displaced during one single combustion cycle' multiplied by the number of combustion units (2 rotor housings/pistons)
each combustion cycle in a RENESIS burns 1.3L total, thus the measurement.
Rotary engines behave differently than a piston engine during operation, in that it fires its full displacement (1.3L) EVERY rotation at the flywheel, whereas a piston fires its full displacement every TWO rotations.
in a way, think of a rotary engine as a 4-stroke engine that operates like a 2-stroker.
Dinu
Total Weight and Corner Weights
ONLY 2908 lbs. with the Sports Package and 1/4 tank of gas!!!
that is LIGHT!!!
Even optioned, the RX8 is still ~$3K less than some of the main competition (like the 350Z). I've actually seen lesser models around here without leather for under $30K. It sounds like you want one, but want to buy below MSRP, which isn't going to happen in the near future.
But does the numbers gaffe hurt the RX-8? My answer would be no. It still is a light, very stiff rear wheel drive vehicle. It still is beautiful without being cute or impractical. And still has a unique powerplant that has plenty of hp for its weight and size.
My Miata was returned by someone after the Miata hp gaffe. I got a steep discount on a car with less than 700 miles and have loved driving it ever since. If people are going to get all worked up over 9 hp, maybe they need some more things to worry about in life.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I've been more than a little peturbed with Mazda. I think the HP rating is just a sympton of another issue...that being emmissions. I do think that the RX8 is a unique, fun to drive sports car as is. It also happens to be faster than probably 99% of any other car on the road today. If you're looking to beat every other car in the stoplight to stoplight war, the RX8 is the wrong car (as is the G35). For that, you'll need either some exotic machinery, some V8 muscle or give up the precision, refinement and high quality of the RX8 and go to the "fast and furious" crowd pleasers like the EVO or WRX. This would still be true if the car had 250HP, as was originally advertised.
The real question comes down to "what would suit me better if I give my RX8 back?"
I chose the RX8 over my 2nd choice, the G35C/350Z and G35 sedan when I originally purchased the RX8. To see if I would still make the same choice, I went back and drove the 350Z and a G35C again last night (drove them both extensively before when I first started looking for cars, originally). Don't get me wrong. Those are fine cars. But, jumping back into my RX8 after test driving the Z and G yet again, I was glad I was back in my RX8.
I've also driven the WRX and the EVO (to get the recent Mitsu $100 offer if you buy a competitor). While entertaining, I quickly scratched both those cars off my list for various reasons.
I'll drive the BMW 3 series again and the MB coupe. Being a former BMW owner, I already know what to expect. The MB, while not the performer that the RX8 is, has a certain "panache".
Right now, I'm still on the fence regarding the RX8. It looks more and more like I'll be keeping it though and taking the money/free maintenance.
I suspect that Mazda is trying to come out with one version of the RX8 to meet worldwide emmissions standards. I think they truly believed the 247HP version would do that. When they found they would have to give up some HP with a different ECU in order to meet the world-wide emmisssions specs, that's what they did. Would I prefer that they have different versions for most of North America (highest power version), CA and EURO SPEC? You bet! I expect that sometime in the next year or two, they'll have a 250+HP version that they may put into a not yet announced update of the RX7.
The frustrating part is this is just speculation and Mazda isn't talking more than to say their dynos didn't match up to independent dynos (which we've only seen a couple of). They made a strong offer to current owners with the money/maintenance deals, or the prospect of taking back 1,000 or so nearly new RX8s no questions asked.
The part that isn't speculation because of personal experience:
--the RX8 is one fast car. Is it faster than the 350Z/G35C? No, but it's pretty close...within a few tenths 0-60 and in the 1/4. It's not faster than a Vette, nor a Porsche 911, nor a Mustang V8. But, I've always felt that refinement, precision and sophistication trump HP any day.
--the RX8 has a light clutch and a delightful "snick-snick" shifter that Mazda does so well in the Miata.
--while totally subjective, the exterior/interior is beautiful where high quality pieces and careful assembly abound with drop dead gorgeous and very legible guages. If the comments and crowds that gather around my RX8 are any indication, the general public agrees with me. As an aside, the sales manager/sales people at Infiniti last night, while I was test driveng the G35 yet again, were all gawking and and asking to just sit in my RX8 as it was parked. Don't get me wrong, the G35 is a beautiful piece. It's just that I don't think the RX8 gives anything away to it.
--then there's the engine...it's very tractable in city driving and very smooth. Open it up to the 9K RPM redline though, and it scoots with plenty of authority. There are only a handful of manufacturers that can match the glorious (but different) sounds RX8 makes....that is Honda, with the S2000, BMW with their smooth 6s, Ford with the Mustang V8s and GM with the LS1 V8s.
--while giving nothing up in the handling dept, the RX8 is light on its feet and sticks like glue and is "tons of fun" in the twisty bits.
--it cruises quietly and comfortably and is just a gear ratio drop down to building tremendous speed at high velocity rates.
--for $33K, including NAV, (which is what I paid for mine) there isn't another option you can get short of a spoiler, underbody kit and a few external chrome bits. To do the same with a 350Z/G35C you have to spend about $3K more. Plus, you can get one for about $28K with all the same handling and speed without going with leather, NAV, Bose, etc.
So, what to make of all this? Well, I have until Oct 1 to make my decision. Do I want better MPG? Sure. Would I like more power? Yeah, sure...who doesn't want more power in a sports car....but currently, the RX8 is pretty damn fast. Would I like Mazda to give us more details about what's going on?...well, yeah. Truth told, I've had much more serious problems with other cars and gotten the brush off from their well regarded manufacturers.
The only reason I'm still on the fence is that Mazda has given us the option. As I write this, though, my reasons for buying the car haven't changed and the only reason I'm going through the re-evalutaion is to make sure I didn't miss anything the first time around.
With tighter emissions and the availability of 91 octane only, it really puts a hamper on performance cars like the rx8, evo and sti especially.
Maybe instead of toughening the emissions and lowering the octane...they should instead look into what is causing the majority of the pollution first.
I bet those Special Utility Vehicles would be a good place to start!
I say this without any disrespect to the RX8 whatsoever. But there is a simple dollars and cents analysis that you and all other owners should do. If Mazda is going to be potentially taking that many cars back, you can bet your last dollar it's going to affect resale values and probably will result in them having to discount the new cars sooner. My guess is that they will be selling "give back" cars at $4-5k under MSRP. Even if you love the car, why wouldn't you get 100% of what you paid back and negotiate a better deal on another new one or an even better deal on a modestly used one?
I agree that misstating horsepower doesn't affect actual performance, but it undermines the credibility of the manufacturer and will likely affect resale values. It's a double edge sword. You hardly see BMW advertising that mentions the horsepower ratings, but Nissan is replete with comparisons of their G35 coupe claiming a 55 hp advantage over the 330ci. Nevermind that actual performance is nearly identical. The Japanese manufacturers seem to live by horsepower advertising, so it is only lgoical that they are damaged by horsepower misstatements. I'm still trying to figure out where Infiniti stuck the 58 horses they claim to have put in the M45 over my former 540i 6-speed. They seem to be missing about 70.
P.S. On the other side of the coin, my neighbor's S2000 weekend car actually seems stronger than its 240 horsepower rating suggests. Apparantly Honda has figured out how to do 9,000 rpm without having CA emissions screw it up.
With consolidation of automobile manufacturers, I believe that most car companies are resisting making different versions of their cars for different country markets. For the RX8 alone, I could see one version for the Pacific Rim, one for CA, one for the rest of North America and one for Europe. By adapting the car's ECU for worldwide use, now they don't have to worry about different ECUs, testing, restatement of HP of each individual version, etc.
To me, you're weakening your biggest market (North America minus CA) in order to appease smaller markets. Makes no sense to me, but I'm not Mazda.
kideveo, I know you and I have sparred in the past, but I do think the EVO is a fine car....just not what I'm looking for.
I do think there should be some sort of a restructuring of emmissions standards for trucks, but right now trucks are the biggest market for the Big 3. Their gov't lobby is strong, too.
Back to our regularly scheduled programming!
The RX8 is still one of the hottest cars on the market currently.
Some of the enthusiast RX8 WEB sites (where most, if not all, the RX8 owners who are affected by this reside) are taking poles as to who is going to sell their RX8 back. It looks to be about 10%-15%....that figures out to be 100-200 cars...barely a "blip" on the entire RX8 market. In addition, the buybacks are only going to be offered to Mazda employees, not the general public.
The vast majority of those who plan on buying the RX8 either don't know and/or don't care about the HP restatement. The car is what it is. When you drive one, you'll understand better what kind of exhilerating experience it is. Unless, you take your car to the track, the restatement doesn't mean a "hill of beans".
Today's engines (even those found in light trucks) emit far fewer pollutants than those from even 10 years ago.
Don't fall into the trap of confusing efficieny with emissions.
1. ECU will indeed trigger a different "fuel map" after a few thousand miles, which returns the HP and MPG promised from the "get-go". This one's particularly interesting given the fact that Mazda has done this before to protect the rotary during break-in. Apparently, the power would go up as would MPG. Thought process being, until the rotary breaks-in a bit, there are concerns that emmissions MAY be an issue. Of course, I've seen other evidence that the Renesis does awfully darn well regarding emmissions right off the boat.
2. professional tuner shop on another board is actually working with Mazda Japan to open up more information and plans on publishing it.
In regards to #1, this would explain a lot of Mazda's silence on the issue....thinking, "just wait until they drive them a few thousand miles and you'll see what we did". Unfortunately, they should have known someone would try to dyno the RENESIS right from the very first cars off the boat.
I remember reading somewhere where SUV's, although able to pass CA emissions, a modern big block could still emit pollution equivalent to 4 or 5 honda civics combined. And with the quantity of SUV's populating the roads out there or anywhere these days, a good portion of the pollution can be blamed on them.
I won't argue the point that most SUVs are used in such a manner that a Honda Civic would be a perfect (an far more cost-effective) surrogate. But, assuming that the SUV is used for tasks befitting its nature (which is a wild assumption, admittedly), it's still more efficient than trying to use 4-5 Civics to accomplish that same, utility-minded task.
Once you factor in the environmental impact of building 5 Civics to try to do the work of a single SUV, the "small car good, SUV bad" argument becomes even more sketchy.
Even Mazda die-hard rotary fans aren't complaining.
I'm a dealer out of Minneapolis. Not one single customer (out of 57 informed in the last week) cares.
They're all too excited about getting money back.
That aside, if I had bought a "247hp" RX-8 and then was told it's actually "238," I wouldn't care either. The darned thing just drives so nicely!
So, I'm not saying the following to bash the RX-8...
However, I've been watching the discussions on rx8forum.com, and I have two concerns with Mazda's letter.
First, their statement that the HP is down, but the performance isn't affected. How is that even possible? If the weight and powertrain are the same, and the power is down, performance must be affected at least a bit. The only other possibility is that the pre-production models handed to the magazines were also 238 HP, in which case, Mazda should have known about this problem long ago.
I also find it interesting that the letter quotes 0-60 times in the "low 6s". C&D and R&T both report 0-60 times of 5.9 seconds.
Maybe the 238 HP RX-8s will be about half a second slower than the pre-production models 0-60. If so, I think this would be acceptable to most owners, given that they aren't buying the 8 as a drag racer -- but Mazda should be honest about it.
A more disturbing problem is that dyno runs have been showing whp in the 170-180 HP range which is more consistent (assuming a 17% powertrain loss) with an engine making about 210 HP at the crank. Is it possible that the ECU will shift over to a high-power map after a few thousand miles? Sure, but if so, Mazda should say something -- and I can't imagine any reason why they wouldn't.
My question to current owners is this: If the RX-8 turns out to make only, say, 220 HP at the crank, and 6.5 secs 0-60, will you still be satisfied?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Don't get me wrong; I think the RX-8 is still a sweet car, and I look forward to seeing them on the streets.
I just found it odd that this message board was DEAD while every other RX-8 board out there was posting at around 5 posts/ hour.
Graphicguy, actually I don't own a G35. The car I have listed as "shopping for" in my profile is generally whatever car I happen to be drooling over at the time.
Sarah, pardon me for being so jaded, but OF COURSE someone in your position is going to say, "No one cares! Yay!" You are selling the product; of course you're going to portray it in the most positive light. Check out some of the other RX8 boards out there. You'll see that, while there are not a ton, there ARE people out there who care, some of whom are quite mad about it. There were people mad about the Mustang SVT fiasco, the Miata fiasco, the Tiburon fiasco, even though some of these involved less than 10 hp. Sorry if I'm going off on you, but your statement just pushed the wrong buttons on me; I just picture one of those chipper "marketing types" trying to blow over some corporate screw-up.
Again, the RX-8 is still a great ride, and I think it would take another 10 hp loss before owners would start becoming disgruntled en masse. I'm still deathly jealous of those of you who are already behind the wheel, and I do hope, as graphicguy said, that the engine is simply engineered to recoup power after break-in.
PS: My own car, the Toyota Celica, had its own mini-fiasco though generally lesser known. The 2002 Celica GT-S is actually a smidge slower than the rest of the gen-7 GT-S celicas. The engine cutoff was just a little bit lower that year, but in a high revving engine like the GT-S, that made a noticable difference. It didn't help that 2002 was the year that most car mags decided to do sport coupe comparos. And you can bet that there were people mad about it.
Not recently, but in my past, I "modded" cars and took engines to "dyno" shops. This isn't an exact science by any means and variables are many. Results will be affected as much by the motivation, skill and expertise of the tester regarding the liklihood of the dyno's accuracy, as Mr Shiftright also pointed out.
My own tests, in real world driving, has netted low 6 second 0-60 without frying the tires nor using a hi rev clutch dump (which is how C&D got their 5.9 sec number). I've not done any 1/4 mile testing personally, but I've seen some time slips that have RX8 all over the map from low 14s to high 14s. I even saw one at 15 sec (must have been a terrible driver).
As mentioned before, Mazda has, in the past, put a "trigger" in the ECU that won't allow full HP until their engines get a few thousand miles on them also, keeping the extra port valve from opening. Some viewed this as simply a sticky valve. I think it is intentional on Mazda's part to aid during break-in and the rotary's durability.
Problem is, this is all speculation and Mazda isn't talking.
Regarding THE LETTER, most have not received theirs yet (I have). I don't know what the "cut-off" date was, but Mazda has set up a special line to call for those that receive the letter so you can ask them directly. Mazda has the vin numbers of the owners that qualify. As a matter of fact, they know you by name when you give them your vin number...I would imagine this was sent to them by the dealer after purchase.
Bottom line, if you have driven the car, you know what most of us owners are talking about in the inherent "goodness" of this car. If there's something you'd rather have other than the RX8, you have an out by giving the car back. I just went through the "re-evaluation" process and still chose the RX8. If, as someone else has pointed out, you bought the car but decided that for financial reasons/obligations you don't want the car, again, you have a no questions asked offer to give the car back.
For the rest of us, and as all the fuss dies down, we'll take free money and free maintenance and look forward to a happy relationship with the car (while only having to pay for gas and insurance to keep it on the road).
It's just difficult to believe that as long as this car has been in development and as much testing that has been done (you really ought to read the book that all of us who pre-ordered received), that Mazda missed the mark by some of the figures that have been thrown out there.
But, again, Mazda's silence just adds fuel to the fire and opens things up for some pretty wild claims. I also don't think that many of the claims are viable because my own experiences show they have no validity (like 30% drivetrain loss, or the car somehow losing 70HP).
Personally, I think there's another announcement coming from Mazda that will explain things in more detail. I just don't think we'll get it until the Oct 1 "LETTER" deadline passes.
After getting some decent instruction on the matter, however, I've come to believe that a dynomometer reading can be a total crap shoot, because the set up is sooooooo important b) the ambient conditions of testing are very important and c)the car itself can be manipulated to give different results.
Throwing all three of those variables into the mix, I have to conclude that no dyno reading is EVER definitive, but rather "relative" to what you tested previously, or "relative" to similar cars.
So if you test 200HP, that means "that car, that day, with that tester setting up the car". The car does not therefore, continually "possess" 200HP. It might or might not. It's not the same as a bathroom scale or a thermometer, which tends to give a 10 lb weight or a cup of boiling water the same reading day after day.
This isn't meant at all to apologize or discount Mazda's problem, only to offer my experiences when I wanted to learn more about these interesting dyno machines.
PS: I also learned that very often (not always, but often), horsepower "gains" registered on the dyno were in fact not gains but rather horsepower transferred to a different part of the power band---again, a gain of sorts, but a relative one, not an absolute one.
When I was "modding" muscle machines, the only reason I was in a dyno shop was to manipulate "bragging rights" with my other tuner friends. It was more like..."hey guys, look what I was able to get out of this small block chevy" than to get some real world power number.
As a side note, I wouldn't even know where to begin in trying to "tune" a modern computer controlled engine these days.
"In the old days" it was relatively simple....port and polish it, "free flow" exhaust it, "hot" cam it, put a big carburator on it and "voila"...allegedly more power.
Try to do that today and you don't know how the computer is really going to react to those mods. Super or turbo charge it? How long do you think it'll be before it melts? NOS? Please....first shot and "kablooey".
The big question seems to be "Is the motor capable of making advertised horsepower?"
The answer is yes.
Paul Yaw
Yaw Power Products
www.yawpower.com
Rotarynews.com has obtained copies of actual timeslips of the test cars Mazda used for testing the car's performance during the 238hp incident.
most of the cars maintained a consistent time of mid to high 14's.
so yes, the car IS as fast as it is advertised ;-)
it is very, VERY rare for a car company to actually release internal test data for public viewing, so enjoy!
As far as I'm concerned, case closed.
So, it looks like 0-60 in low to mid 6s (that's what I got on mine) and 1/4s right around that 14.5 sec range...right where we all expected.
You're right......CASE CLOSED!
so if the ECU had to be reprogrammed at the port due to emissions as some people are saying wouldnt reprogramming itself after break in affect emmissions? also do you have any links to your ECU fuel mapping finds? thanks
"My Miata was returned by someone after the Miata hp gaffe. I got a steep discount on a car with less than 700 miles and have loved driving it ever since. If people are going to get all worked up over 9 hp, maybe they need some more things to worry about in life."
I agree that returning the car if you got a decent deal on it to start with and are still fully satisfied with is probably not worth the hassle. However, from purely a financial perspective, I believe that anyone that paid full MSRP or above now has an opportunity to trade it in and pick up a brand new one at better price come November. In most regions, that's a good time to buy a sports car. Whether the savings are worth the hassle or loss of a $500 debit card and free service is up to the individual.
For comparison, I bought a brand new M5 after the original purchaser defaulted on a custom ordered car(non-standard color combination and other minor items). Although the $7,500 discount I got was partly because the dealer is a friend, in order to retain the defaulting buyer's deposit ($7,500), they had to show reasonable effort to sell the car at a higher price. A full weekend advertisement in several newspapers did not produce a boni-fide buyer. At the same time Ebay had "listings" of $10,000+ over MSRP. Real world pricing vs. market hype are two different things. I suspect that the hp debacle has taken a little of the hype out of Mazda's sails.
It may have been an ECU reflash (as some evidence suggests regarding the port campaign) or it could just as well have been a hardware piece that was installed. Some of the cars have more than one port campaign sticker for different, but still unknown, reworks. I only have one. But, all the early pre-orders have them. With Mazda being quiet about the port campaign, no one really knows except Mazda.
Initial tests reveal that the RENESIS is running very "clean" right off the showroom floor, but out of the chute, it is also running rich, maybe due to the extra port valve not opening up and not completely burning the fuel. Could it be that Mazda is being overly cautious for durability reasons to not having it make full power? Who knows? But, if it's already running clean, then it stands to reason that after a few thousand miles the trigger in the ECU is tripped and the extra port valve opens up, thus providing more power (and maybe more emmissions), but still within emmissions spec (Mazda hopes). If it's already running very clean, after break-in the engine should run even cleaner as the fuel is leaned out and optimized by the ECU without going over the emmissions regs. Remember, Mazda wants this to hit EURO SPEC 4 emmissions regs (most stringent in the world) in '05-'06.
This is the part that I believe Mazda really doesn't know until they have 1,000s of cars in the market with 1,000s of miles on them. Who knows, maybe Mazda plans a TSB after they have more cars out there with more real world miles on them to reflash the ECU manually after they're confident what's coming out of the tailpipe will meet all worldwide emmisssions specs? It's cheaper to just have a trigger embedded in the ECU for this, though.
Lots of places to get information, but I'm not allowed to post them here. Just do a Google search for RX8...you'll find them.
Here is what one person got when they had to have their car tested for emmisions:
Hydrocarbons (HC):
Standard: 220.00 ppm
RX-8 Results: 1.00 ppm
Carbon Monoxide (CO):
Standard: 1.20%
RX-8 Results: 0.01%
Standard= all OBDII certified cars (no trucks) tested.
From this one car with this one test, it looks like the RX8 is very clean. I see no mention of it being a ULEV certified car, though. That to me would be a selling point for Mazda. So maybe they really aren't sure if this is the norm or the exception.
I don't really care about the horsepower issue. However, I am curious as to why the RX8 matches up very close to the 240hp, 153 ft-lb, 2,800 lb curb weight, 9,000 rpm redline of the S2000 and yet appears to be a notch or two behind in performance. Road tests of the S2000 are all over the place, but generally average 0-60 in 5.4-5.6; 1/4 mile in 14.1-14.2. I discount Motor Trend's 0-60 in 5.2; 1/4 mile in 13.8 as an "outlier".
I've been lectured before on how many variables go into real world performance. But I would have thought the RX8 would have been closer to the S2000. I myself probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference and admit buying the S2000 more for it's top down fun and handling characteristics than raw acceleration ability. Just curious.
I would expect the two cars to be so close in the real world that driver capabilities and/or desire to thrash their car would be more of a difference than any paper stats.
Honda S2000
Gear Type 6 Speed Manual
Final Drive 4.10:1
1st Gear Ratio 3.13:1
2nd Gear Ratio 2.05:1
3rd Gear Ratio 1.48:1
4th Gear Ratio 1.16:1
5th Gear Ratio 0.97:1
6th Gear Ratio 0.81:1
Mazda RX-8
Gear Type 6 Speed Manual
Final Drive 4.44:1
1st Gear Ratio 3.76:1
2nd Gear Ratio 2.27:1
3rd Gear Ratio 1.65:1
4th Gear Ratio 1.19:1
5th Gear Ratio 1.00:1
6th Gear Ratio 0.84:1
thoughts?
I suspect that the RX-8 has at least 30-50lbs of sound deadening that the S2000 doesn't have either. In comparison, all things considered, the S2000's 2800lb weight starts to look somewhat porky given its dimunitive size, versus the quite a bit larger but not much heavier RX-8.