Timing belt replacement
Hi all
I'm a first timer - so give me a break. I was advised by my Honda dealer that I need to have the timing belt replaced - even though it hasn't broke. I have 125K miles. Can't I wait until it breaks? They advised it will cost $750. Called other places and was told could wait until it broke and the price was much cheaper $450.
I also had them check the noisy muffler at the local repair shop - there is a hole in the pipe before the muffler. They want to replace the entire thing including the muffler (even though it doesn't look bad) - Cost $450. I thought it would be about $100.
Sometimes it's hard to know what the truth is - can any of you experts help?
What's the real story?
MD
I'm a first timer - so give me a break. I was advised by my Honda dealer that I need to have the timing belt replaced - even though it hasn't broke. I have 125K miles. Can't I wait until it breaks? They advised it will cost $750. Called other places and was told could wait until it broke and the price was much cheaper $450.
I also had them check the noisy muffler at the local repair shop - there is a hole in the pipe before the muffler. They want to replace the entire thing including the muffler (even though it doesn't look bad) - Cost $450. I thought it would be about $100.
Sometimes it's hard to know what the truth is - can any of you experts help?
What's the real story?
MD
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Your message will probably get referred to the 'Honda Accord Problems Part2' board. You should check that board out. There are usually a couple of mechanics that post there regularly and I am sure they could give you more qualified information.
Just to be clear here, I am no expert, but I have owned Hondas for the past 15 years. So take my advice with a grain of salt.
But my .02, since you asked, is get that Timing belt fixed pronto! I believe 94 Accords have a recommended timing belt change at 90k. If the belt breaks before you change it, you are at risk for some serious damage. I had a college roommate who waited to change the belt and his broke. It cost him nearly $1000.
I think the price the dealer quoted you for the replacement was a 'tad' high. Was he maybe including a 120k service with that? Usually, changing just the timing belt (and including the new water pump which is normally changed at the same time) has run me about $400.
I remember my Hondas also encountered exhaust problems when they were getting 7-8 years old. I believe the exhaust has four pieces. Three pipes and then the muffler. I would think you could just replace the bad pipe and muffler but it wouldn't surprise me if all pieces were getting bad. I would get a second opinion. My experience was that just the muffler itself would be about $100.
Check out that other board, and good luck.
It's a smart thing to replace the water pump and the other belts at the same time.
As far as your muffler...well, if it's the original, it's probably on it's last legs. Probably smart to just replace it since the exhaust system will have to come apart in order to change the pipe.
The muffler price is a bit high also. Don't go to one of the franchise muffler places. Was told about how they have a guy with Popeye sized biceps that takes a huge set of channel lock pliers and squeezes all your pipes and if he can crush one-he gets a bonus. Well took a friend's Mazda to get a muffler replaced at a franchise muffler place and lo and behold-up comes this dude with the channel locks-told him to FO with his toy.
A resonable price for tbelt and all drive belts replacements would be $400 and maybe $225 for the muffler. Call around.
When everything is apart, the pump is RIGHT THERE!
No additional labor to change it and if the dumb thing fails a month later the whole thing has to come apart again!
125,000 miles is a long time for a water pump.
If it were my car I would change it just for the peace of mind. They aren't that expensive.
Still, if you're on a tight budget you could take the gamble.
The guys who know about Hondas are easy to determine.They will explain in more detail then you want to hear about your problem.The good ones really like to work on these cars.They also know that you will be a customer as long as you own the car.Bring cash and a little tip never hurts.Taking an older Honda to the dealer will break you.I am not a Honda fan ,but I have seen these things run a long time for little money ,IF you find a good "sidejob" not "shadetree mechanic".
And that a good price would be between $250-400 (that's a lot better than $750 at the dealer)
Sounds like I also need to have the water pump and balance shaft seal all done at the same time.
Muffler system approx cost @225.
Thanks to all of you for the good advice - I knew I could count on you (I probably shouldn't drive it - except to the repair shop.)
I just have one question, lleroi - How can you tell a "sidejob" mechanic from a "shadetree" before he does the job?
And...lugwrench, he isn't really all that "lucky".
These seals really don't fail all that often. Still, it was a problem on some cars and the update should be done.
The shadetree guy might not know about that.
I've known a lot of "moonlighters". these are guys who do side jobs to make extra money.
As with anything, some of these guys are excellent and others are butchers. Your recourse if something go's wrong will be limited.
Proceed with caution.
This was never a *recall*. It was a product update. Honda didn't have to do anything but chose to on their own realizing that some cars were, indeed, affected.
I fought with Honda's customer service for 5 months to get reimbursed for the cost of a second timing belt change, since the new one got saturated with oil and was unable to be reused.
mdoneff- get the timing belt and water pump done at the same time, and count your blessings that the existing belt didn't break. When they do, the pistons normally hit the valves, and it gets pretty ugly when that happens.
Thanks for your help. I haven't found any specific discussion of this on the Acura site and hoped you might be able to help me.
http://www.gates.com/downloads/files/catalogs/tbelt.pdf
Regards to all OHC engine lovers...
So why don't car manufacturers go with timing chains? how much more can it cost them?
Oh, i have 187k miles on my car and havent changed the water pump yet. My mechanic said that i'll know when the pump will START to go bad when i see small drops of antifreeze leaking on the ground. That's plenty of warning to bring it in before you start getting puddles.
oh, where is the timing belt/pump? do they have to remove the transmission to get to it?
Damage does not always occur either. Damage CAN happen. Your neighbor was both lucky and foolish for letting it go that long.
Timing chains wear out too along with the gears and tenshioners.
I stand corrected. However that timning pulley turned without the valves hitting the pistons.
I had a '95 Ranger with SOHC 2.3L and changed the belt at 90K. Timing chains on OHV engines normally last until its time to rebuild.
What are their advantages, & how can we avoid destruction?
Belts have advantages over chains - they're usually quieter, and they're simpler to engineer. Chains last longer - most of the time (ask many Saturn owners about that; at one point, they were well-known for 40-50,000 mile chain breakage).
This is one major reasons Chrysler trannies have gotten a bad rap. They use unique transmission fluid that even some dealers don't fully understand. Never let a Jiffy-lube or place like that top off your tranny, they will destroy it.
One can always go for a pushrod engine and avoid the problem entirely.
If a manufacturer says 90,000 miles, they full expect that the belt will probably last a lot longer than that.
I mean...timing belts aren't a big deal! Just change them when you are supposted to. On Hondas built since 1997, it's 105,000 miles!
Still, the new CRVS use a chain and I understand the 2003 Accords will too.
Idler arm stopped functioning and ate belt 140,000
Tensioner Arm came loose and stripped belt at 160,000. Cam Seals leaked at the same time.
This time on another car at 120,000 I replaced the tensioner arms, water pump and seals as well as the timing belt to avoid this fiasco.
Timing belt replacement is usually not that difficult - any competent mechanic can do the job properly.
The Chrysler transaxles are another matter - there are those who would have you believe the fluid is the issue, but it is not. Yes, the wrong fluid can cause damage (and note that initially, Chrysler itself recommended Dexron). Even with the proper fluid, the units built before 2000 are still poorly engineered junk that fails despite proper maintenance.
It is also true that timing belts are better than they used to be (it was about 10-15 years ago that Hondas were well known for eating timing belts at 40-50,000 miles - often taking the engine with them). I know several people who had trouble with Accords and Civics back then.
For those of you wondering about going longer before replacing your belt, first you need to find out if your engine is interference, or non-interference. You can do this by calling your local Honda dealer. If it's a non-interference engine, you can drive it 'til the belt breaks or gets thrown and it won't do any damage to the engine. It may strand you though. If a belt breaks or gets thrown in an interference engine, it's going to do some serious damage. I'm talking bent valves, dented pistons, etc. In these types of engines, I highly recommend changing the belt at the recommended interval.
Replacing the water pump just because you have access to it is a waste of money. There's no need to replace it unless you know it's bad. It's very common for water pumps to last several hundred K miles.
The issue of DC auto trannys has come up. While their trannys may not be as good as some others, nobody builds an auto tranny that will last. My Accord has a 5 speed manual, which had the clutch replaced at 160K miles. This car now has 175K miles. How many auto trannies would I have gone through by now? Probably at least 2. I don't know why auto trannies can't be built to last as long as manuals do. The only thing that goes in manuals is the clutch.
I myself would disagree with bottgers about not changing the water pump at the same time (provided that the pump is part of the t-belt path). For short money/cheap insurance the water pump can be replaced at the same time as the timing belt (added cost? $50-maybe $100, it would cover the cost of being towed).
The longevity of water pumps has considerably lengthened, due to better seals and less corrosive antifreeze. Who would want to have to pay for the labor of replacing another timing belt with the water pump when the pump lets go and sends antifreeze all over? I've had the pump replaced with the belts, it's just a question of reliability and what day of the week the pump was made.
There's a lot of labor involved in modern cars and timing belts so after several expensive experiences I take care of things when the belt is being replaced.
One is Preventative, more or less like fleets operate, or airlines
The other is "As Needed", in response to a problem.
Of course, with fleets or airlines, the safety and economics factors dictate a course of Preventative maintenance (in other words, you replace things at certain predicted fail rates, whether they are still good or not).
With the average car owner, it depends very much on whether a high level of reliability, or long life, are important to you. If you live and drive in Alaska, you might swap out a water pump whether you need it or not. If you are a student on a budget in a big city, it might be completely unnecessary.
One post stated, timing belts have advantages ... they're quiter. No they're CHEAPER to manufacture. If belts are so great why did Corolla change to changes in 98, and now even the great Hondas are changing to chains.
If it were an older car where access is not an issue, I might not do it, but on FWD with very tight engine compartments, I don't see why you'd want to take the chance.
I rather doubt a Honda pump is engineered to go 300K, although a few might make that. Good engineers do not design some parts to outlast the rest of the car by a wide margin. This is wasteful and expensive and probably against corporate cost analysis procedures. If Honda is really doing this and charging $150 for a pump, they should make it last 200K and charge $75 for it, because the number of Hondas going to 300K are certainly less than 1%. It does the consumer no service to overbuild and charge a lot for that.
Classic example is differentials, when studies showed that differentials were the one major component in wrecking yards that were not being re-used. That is, nobody needed used ones, or at least the demand was very very low in proportion to other powertrain items. Nowadays differentials are not build so massively, and they tend to fail just about when the car is worn out.
Barring accidents, most cars are pretty much dead at 150K-175K. I think the average age of a car on the road is only about 9 years, so even 175K is optimistic.
To presume that more than a handful of these old cars will go another 2 & 1/2 times their current mileage (and it will take a car 24 years to do this) is not a reasonable presumption in my opinion.
We see very few 1978 cars on the road (24 years old) as it is, and I'd bet you that if you stopped each one, you'd be at it for months before you found even one with 300K on it.
At 1% of a best selling car (Camry, Accord, etc.), we'd have to say that 4,000 of these cars will last 24 years and make it to 300K. I'd say 1% is a reasonable guess of probability. 10% (40,000) sounds like way too many.
I haven't personally seen a car with over 300K in over 5 years, and I'm around cars, lots, auctions, appraisals, etc. quite a bit, much more than the average lad.
I once toook in an 87 civic with 356,000 miles. The body was beat and the clutch was shot but it seemed to run well.
A lot of these cars die in accidents before they get a chance to get the real high miles too.
And, I think a Honda water pump is more like 50.00.
These same people think a timing chain never causes any problems....dream on!
ISELL -- Cutrate. I stopped goint to dealers because their service was inconsistent. And, yes, they are often cheaper.