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Saturn ION

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  • wwhite2wwhite2 Member Posts: 535
    Pat, this forum should be divided into people who have good things to say and people who dont because anybody who posts a negative thought will always be hammered by the opposite point of view . I have had severe problems with my 99sc2 causing me to swap out engines . but if I post the problems, a saturn Knight in shiny armor will swoop down and pummell me with " well you must have caused the problem . All I can say that it isnt against the T.O.S. to post negative opinions so people keep posting and saturn super heros keep pounding us !!!!
  • afk_xafk_x Member Posts: 393
    If being a defender of truth gets me labled as a Saturn Knight than so be it.


    Speaking of facts, could you explain what caused the 2 96 Saturn S series to be shot after 70K miles? This is FAR less than the average life expectancy for any Saturn. Still, every car is a little different and its entirely possible that after 70K they were ready for the scapyard. That isn't the norm.


    Fact: Consumer reports has consistantly reccomended S series Saturns as a good used vehicle primarily (I assume) based upon their excellent track record for reliability.


    Stil, I would never call a 96 S series bulletproof.


    What does this have to do with the ION? Nothing. I can't think of a single component shared between the 7 year old S series and the ION. There may be some, I just cant imagine what they would be.

  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I didnt say that the ION and S shared components. You stated your opinion that Saturns can last 200K miles, and I related the experience of two former colleagues with your vaunted Saturns. But if we are going to get into reliability predictions- name me 5 FIRST YEAR (of model introduction or redesign) GM vehicles that achieved an "average" reliability ranking by Consumer Reports. I dare you.
    :)
    ~alpha
  • wwhite2wwhite2 Member Posts: 535
    Taken care of by a mechanic with a master's degree in Ed.- Technology Ed (Shop to all you old guys) exceeding saturns maintenance timeline using superior products (all Syn ) couldnt get more that 112K miles out of an all (99%) highway driven engine . I thought I was going to 300K with the way we were racking up miles . but it looks like I will have to rebuild or swap out engines every 100K +/- . I think it's fair to assume saturn's past is a fair indicator of it's future . How can you prove otherwise . Those who overlook the past will suffer the same consequences . Five years from now we will have good data on the ION. Then let's talk
  • afk_xafk_x Member Posts: 393
    I don't have to name 5 GM vehicles since we're talking about Saturn. I confess I am not a GM expert. I am a Saturn expert and speaking of a first year vehicle that achieved "average" or better I point to the VUE. Speaking of GM as I understand it Consumer reports will be reccomending 13 (?exact number unknown?) GM vehicles because of reliabilty and other factors.


    The ION to a certain degree already has a track reccord. The 2.2 ECOTEC is an engine that I can safely call bulletproof. Ask any Saturn tech what kind of problems they see in it. Answer? None. The 5 speed auto is a proven unit similar to that used in the VUE and Volvo S40.


    I admit there are many unproven components new to the ION like the electric power steering system, and the wireless electrical system. So we'll have to wait and see there but given Saturns track reccord it would be a logical assumption to think these type components would be long lasting as well...


    As for your 99 SC2, no one can say why it failed prematurely. I can prove easily that the average life expectancy of a twin cam 1.9 liter Saturn engine far exceeds 100K miles when properly maintained. I'm not suggesting yours was not properly maintained, merely that your one example does nothing to change the fact that the vast majority last much much longer.


    We had a receptionist who had an 99 Accord V6 that had the tranny fail at 90K miles. What does this prove? Nothing. Just a data point...


    Saturn Knight rests your honor

  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Wouldn't touch one of those guys. Rust buckets everywhere not to mention questionable warranty terms and long term reliability. I have met far too many disappointed people who own or have owned to "believe" in their cars.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    As I have said before, I think Hyundais are different cars in Canada or something. They have a great warranty program here, I have not seen a rusted Hyundai yet, and they are moving higher and higher in the American market.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Not different, but they have been selling cars longer up here. Can you say Pony? Nope, it was never sold in the US but you won't find many left up here because they are all in the scrap heap. Hey, maybe the new ones will be ok, but in climates where there is snow and ice I still see them rusting faster than anything on the road. I also know they still have lower than average reliability and owner satisfaction ratings.
  • vuefor2vuefor2 Member Posts: 490
    Boy things have been busy here this weekend.

    Hyundia is a car to stay away from in my opinion. My sister has one and it's junk. Horrible re-sale so she feel like she is stuck with it also. I would stick with a Japanese name if I hated Saturns like regfootball or others.

    As for the Ion, the car is much better than all the arm chair critics will ever know. Reading magazines and newspapers hardly gives a person the credibility to pass judgment.

    amackenzie - Do you think you will buy an Ion? We are leaning towards one after we started hearing about the egg smell problems of the Corolla.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    If there was only a choice between the Corolla and the ION, I would definitely get the ION, no question. It's roomier inside, and a nicer ride.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    When did Hyundai start selling the Pony in Canada? They used to sell the Excel here, back in 1986.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Early 80's from what I can remember. I remember the Hyundia dealer going up across the street from my high school at the time. Ponys were available at the time for about C$4995 as I recall. Looked like a bargoon until you had it for a couple of years and realized it was worse than the Ladas they sold down the street.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    The total interior volume of the ION measures only 2.7 cubic feet larger than the Corolla, and in return for the extra size, you'll pay a little at the pump:
    Even with its lauded 5 speed auto, the ION returns 24 city and 32 Hwy, whereas the Corolla returns 30 city and 39 Hwy, with its automatic.
    Yes, the ION is more powerful, but it is not necessarily quicker- certainly, one cannot compare apples to oranges, as I've only seen times published by Car and Driver for an auto ION and a manual Corolla. Even so, I'd find it hard to believe that the automatic would add 2 entire seconds to the Corolla man. 0-60 of 8.2 (The ION auto needs 10.3 to 60- both Car and Driver and Motor Trend got similar numbers). And although I havent driven the ION, I have been in one- the interior is not nearly of the same quality or execution as a similarly priced Corolla. In terms of ride, the Corolla's is plenty refined, and quiet. Finally, if you are looking to purchase a car right now, you already know about the Corolla's crashworthiness- even without side airbags, both front and rear dummies received 4 stars, and the Corolla was chosen as a Best Pick by the IIHS. If you really are too aprehensive with the Corolla because of the reported egg smell, go with the ION- it'll be a decent car, as long as thats all you expect it to be.
    ~alpha
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    The Excel that came here in 1986 started at $4995 as well. More were broken down on the side of the road than were actually on the highway! The cars were pretty bad.

    We never had the other brand you mentioned in the States, so I don't know about them...
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    vocus : Pony was worse than the Excel, believe me.

    alpha : More to speed than 0-60. Passing power is important also and I suspect the ION will really excel there. In terms of space, the ION has the biggest trunk in class as far as I know. I think the Corolla may be a touch more refined, but I have not driven back to back and that would be the only way to know for sure.
  • afk_xafk_x Member Posts: 393
    Having driven them back to back I would say the following.

    ION is more composed handling wise (part of the road test was a slalom), and felt more powerful.(Although the Corolla was no dog) Corolla has much less front leg room. ION definately has a bigger trunk by a lot, and ION has better looks IMO.

    Corolla has a REALLY nice interior (this one was an LE). Corolla will have better resale value. Corolla has better gas milage.

    By the way I can't stress enough how impressed I was with the interior. Frankly I was in awe.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Wow. That was a really unbiased opinion. Thanks! I am looking forward to actually driving the ION- its just that, like I said, first impressions havent left me too impressed. And to an earlier assertion- I certainly agree that there is more to acceleration than 0-60, and providing I have my collection of Car and Drivers around, next time I will be more thorough. Still, my opinion hasnt changed that the ION should be quicker than it is, given the advanced auto and excess cubic inches.
    ~alpha
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    the gauges on the corolla are in the right spot, too.

    the corolla's seats are higher and allow more stretched out driving position. console is way nicer, the dash and doors are lexus like.

    Ion has less rear seat room too.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    regfootball : Lexus like.. not. Good quality.. yes.

    alpha : I think the ION should be faster than it is also. My Alero with the Ecotec has better 0-60 times than ION and it's a bigger car. I'm not sure what Saturn has done wrong here.
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Member Posts: 2,228
    I seem to recall way back in the beginning of this forum, when the Ion was mere speculation, that many people doubted my thoughts that the Ion's fuel economy would be a lot worse than the S-series (they were all claiming that great fuel economy would be an advantage of the Ion). I argued with them that logic dictates a similar size car that only weighes a little less than the L-series would get similar fuel economy numbers with the same engine. I even brought the Cavalier into the discussion because it had the same engine and people still wouldn't believe me. Now, where are all those who doubted me?? I think a good "I told you so" is in order :)
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Isn't the Ecotec 2.2 brand new in the Cavalier for this year?
    ~alpha
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    As much as I appreciate your concern for my career success, you can rest assured that I've been having a great time driving my high-quality vehicles for the last 7 years, and have established a fine standard of living in the process.

    It's easy to drive 6,000 miles a month when the car you're driving is well-engineered, carefully assembled, and doesn't break. Being a Saturn fan, you might not have an appreciation for such automotive traits.

    Perhaps you'll tire of playing with plastic cars one day. "A different kind of car," indeed.

    P.S.- I don't need to drive the Ion for the simple reason that I won't be shopping for one, or any other car in its class. I was unaware that all contributors to this forum were required to have first-hand knowledge of the car in question, as opposed to just offering different opinions and views.
  • afk_xafk_x Member Posts: 393
    Post 132 is where the prophet Igtonge18 first proposes his gas milage theory.

    Post 149 is where I first discuss gas milage myself.

    Now we have the official numbers.

    ION has a drag coeficient of .349 (Not very good)

    The electric power steering adds .7 MPG to the EPA ratings. (Very good)

    The CVT in the VUE gets the same MPH as the manual, although the manual turns fairly high RPMs in its final gear. (Dunno what this will mean for the CVT coupe)
  • afk_xafk_x Member Posts: 393
    Merry X-Mas!
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    If you are well off and satisfied with your life, then why the need to come into a forum for a car that does not interest you and bash those who view as less successful? Aren't your accomplishments enough to derive pleasure?
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    I had a few choice comments for hilimer and lngtonge18 but.. it's Christmas.

    Instead I say Merry Christmas to all !
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    The ION has a drag coefficient of .349- WOW thats like a brick! What is the purpose of the engineers' not paying more attention to the aerodynamics of this car? Mainstream cars can indeed have very low coefficients- the Camry registers .28 and the Accord .29!
    ~alpha
  • afk_xafk_x Member Posts: 393
    Another reason to buy the ION

    "The noise level and ride quality realy gets on my nerve in my protoge when I drive a lot even though I don't mind it when I drive it at local."

    Thats a quote from the Mazda 6 board and several other Protege owners chime in as well.

    The ION is very quiet and smooth on the highway (in fact this is where it shines). Its very stable at speed and to get this quiet smooth ride you don't give up handling.
  • vuefor2vuefor2 Member Posts: 490
    Himiler ::: Sorry, we can't all afford cars that live up to your standards. Maybe you should stop wasting all of our time with you pointless posts.

    afk ::: Highway driving was impressive. My wife goes about 25 miles each way to work so that is important to us.
  • wwhite2wwhite2 Member Posts: 535
    Come on, if the saturn engineers wanna design a brick so what ? and your point? LOL
  • bravedavebravedave Member Posts: 100
    It seems you can now build and price your ION on Saturn's web site.

    Enjoy !
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    Having had 2 Proteges, I can tell you for a fact it's not a car for alot of highway driving. The engine is very vocal, and has to be revved because the power isn't there. Otherwise, they are pretty nice though.
  • vuefor2vuefor2 Member Posts: 490
    Where did everyone go?

    Anyone buy an Ion over the holidays? We are thinking about getting one really soon.
  • drivinisfundrivinisfun Member Posts: 372
    I have not driven the ION but the sedan looks hideous. The design is disjointed and it is plain and simply ugly.

    The weird looking steering wheel does not help matters either.

    Chevy should have gotten a better looking car to grace the Delta platform. I see the ION receiving an emergency design revision for the 2004 model year. Watch those resale values plummet down to the ground.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    The ION is ok, nothing too beautiful but I wouldn't call it hideous.

    I have only seen 1 on the road so far so I'm wondering if it's selling. That said, I have not seen one ad on TV for the car yet either so I doubt most people even know about the car.
  • drivinisfundrivinisfun Member Posts: 372
    It is a very akward looking car. See is no Aztek but it is not nice looking either. The four door simply has disjointed lines, poor proportions, huge gaps, the car looks unpleasing to the eye.

    The worst aspect about the interior is that cartoonish steering wheel.

    The coupe could be better, but I have yet to see one.

    The car is a flop and GM needs to perform plastic surgery on it and pronto.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    How can the car be a flop when it hasn't even been officially launched yet? You can never predict these things. I thought the ugly Santa Fe would be a flop and it sells real well in spite of it's looks.

    The coupe looks pretty good, much better styling.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    New financing of 0% for up to 60 months and 1.9% for 72 months. I would never want to finance a car for 6 years.
  • drivinisfundrivinisfun Member Posts: 372
    ION's are being advertaised here with 0% financing up to 72 months.

    That spells FLOP to me.
  • saturnfreak01saturnfreak01 Member Posts: 134
    drivinisfun

    Obviously, your OPINION of what YOU consider is an attractive design will differ from the thousands of consumers that will buy the ION. FACT.

    As far as the ION selling or not selling, to call it a flop, is YOUR OPINION. Saturn has not started the advertising campain, FACT.

    All of those comments, are OPINIONS. FACT
  • vuefor2vuefor2 Member Posts: 490
    Have you even driven an Ion? I highly doubt it. Your comments are most arrogant!

    The Ion is a fantastic car to drive, as good as anything out there. Just because you think it looks bad does not mean it's a flop.

    As for the financing, there is no 0 percent for 72 months. Last time I spoke with my sales guy it was 0 for 36. At best it would be 0 for 60 now as I know bigdaddy is a credible source.

    Why do you feel the need to bash this car for no reason?
  • saturnfreak01saturnfreak01 Member Posts: 134
    As your profile states, you drive/own a Mini Cooper... Lets discuss its saftey shall we , how about the 5 mile per hour bumper test where its frame is bent... Sure doesn't seem like a quality car to me.

    I suspect after the fad fades away, the mini will get old and will no longer be sold in the US like Renault's, Yugos, etc..

    That, is my opinion
  • drivinisfundrivinisfun Member Posts: 372
    So tell me then, do you think that offering 0% 72 month free financing is going to enhance the appeal and resale value of the ION?

    I am glad that you love the ION but face it, the car is dead in the water.

    Read some of the critique written here:

    www.autoextremist.com

    Once that car is officially launched, we shall see how well it will do in the charts. But contrary to your claims, the car is still ugly and many buyers skipping over it will share the same opinion.

    And don't get so worked over an Opinion. Take them for what they are worth.
  • vuefor2vuefor2 Member Posts: 490
    If there is 0% for 60 months, we may go buy one this weekend. I was kind of hoping for a better deal as we only got 3.9% on out Saturn Vue.
  • drivinisfundrivinisfun Member Posts: 372
    And you shall receive:


    MINI Cooper, "Best pick" by the Insurance Institute of Highway Safety (IIHS):


    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0222.htm


    Also the MINI has received a 4 star rating from NHTSA.


    More info at:


    www.miniusa.com


    While we are at it, let;s look at the crashworthiness of some recent Saturn products:


    Saturn VUE:


    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0212.htm


    Saturn L Series:


    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/99022.htm


    Old Saturn S series:


    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/97015.htm


    OUCH!

  • vuefor2vuefor2 Member Posts: 490
    Looks are totally subjective. Your opinion is that it is ugly. My opinion is that it's attractive.

    Your opinion is not everyone elses. Lots of cars I think are ugly sell well.

    Get it?
  • saturnfreak01saturnfreak01 Member Posts: 134
    Saturn has one of the highest owner loyalty ratings in the industry... so, if you continue to bash a car with out facts, just your OPINIONS, expect to be challanged.

    Maybe some of us should stroll over to the MINI room, and post our comments as to its quality, and value.. Somehow, I don't feel the need to bash a car I have never owned or driven.

    YET, you do... ?
  • vuefor2vuefor2 Member Posts: 490
    Saturn has GOOD and ACCEPTABLE on their two other products.

    What is the point here?
  • drivinisfundrivinisfun Member Posts: 372
    I have not driven the ION and I don't doubt the Delta platform is more competitive than the old S platform it replaces. Opel had much to do with its development and the handling should be a cut above "decent".

    The problem I have with the ION is the body shell looks. It is ugly, sorry if that hurts your feelings, but there are many people that share the same view.

    Folks, you seem to get very worked over one's opinion...take it as a grain of salt, take a deep breath and enjoy!

    It amazes me when people can't take an ounce of criticism...geez!
  • drivinisfundrivinisfun Member Posts: 372
    None of them are best picks. If Saturn is is the "Creme of la creme" how come their cars don't earn top ratings in these safety tests?

    I am a bit dissapointed about the VUE's performance, a new design from the ground up.

    These cars should be "Best Picks" all the way. If the other manufacturers can do it, why Saturn can't?
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