Saturn ION

speculative

Lets say you buy cheap gas $1.15 a gallon for 89 octain. Lets say you drive 15k miles a year (this is above the national average).
If your car gets 20mpg average it will cost you $862.50 . If your car gets 30mpg average it will cost you $575.00 (ignore consumption while ideling because you get 0 mpg no matter what the car). $862.50 - $575.00 = $287.5 a year. Now very few cars average 30mpg (maybe some civics) and very few average BELOW 20mpg, so OVER 4 years you are only loosing about less then $1250. That is a very very small difference, especially since gass milage tends to degrade more over time in cars with great gass mialage then in cars with lousy mialage (because of rings going bad). Gas mialage is really not worth much. I would gladely drive a faster small car that gets crappy gas mialage and costs 1000 less then its competator.

dindak

Jetta. is not even close to the same price as a Saturn s-series and we aren't talking about the s-series, we are talking about the ION. S-series is old stuff, we all know that. I have sat in every car you have mentioned and all the ones in the U$15K range have lots of plastic. Some are a little better than others, but since we have not sat in an ION, we can't tell how it compares from pictures. All I can say is, the dash looks fine for the price range and the customizable dash designs are pretty cool and have not even been mentioned here.

Also, apparently the roof color strips are also custom and can be changed or kept the color of the body. There was an article in the Toronto Star on the car today and ION was given high marks in general from the guy (who wrote and actually saw and sat in the car). Before prejudging a car you have only seen in pictures, perhaps you should wait and see it before you slam it.

lngtonge18

Well, I must say your way of thinking is very short-sided. First of all, cheap gas isn't that cheap right now. 89 octane where I am is $1.50/gallon (87 is $1.40). Second of all, you aren't considering all the extra gas you are using up and the extra pollution you are spewing into the air per mile. Now, I'm no greenpeace person, but the less gas you use, the longer we can continue using it at a reasonable price. It is an exhaustible natural resource you know.

The Ecotec is probably the best modern engine GM has released. I have driven the L200 and was impressed with its smoothness and generally quiet manner. The oil filter is unique and a good idea. I wasn't too impressed with its power though. While competent, it didn't have any kick to it. It felt the same to me as my mom's old 92 Accord with 180k on it, albeit the Ecotec had less pull in the higher rpms. This engine should finally erase Saturn's image of having loud, unrefined motors. I do commend Saturn on offering 3 different trannys. The use of a 5 speed auto and a CVT should mean there will be no noticeable difference in mileage ratings between the 3. All of my posts concerning mileage comparisons have been concerned with EPA readings. Some people may get better mileage, and some poorer. I realize that, but the EPA ratings are generally a good measure of normal mileage. Every car I have owned has been exactly what it was rated at, with some minor fluctuations.

speculative

Right off the bat I dont care about how much pollution it puts in the environment. Most people dont or there would be a mass run on honda insite's. Second have you ever noticed that we always have a 30+ year oil supply? 30 years ago they said we would run out in 30 years (who said? The sociaty of rome. Yes the premier environmental group of scientists was actually called that). We still have a thirty year oil supply acording to them. We have an additional 100years if we start reforming corn stalk and coal which would only add $0.40-$0.60 a gallon (according to duane chapman professor of environmental economics Cornell university). Within the next 100 years we will switch fules, but untill then the price of oil is determined by how much opec decides to pump NOT the amount we use. You see it is not true free market economics, it is a monopoly by a few big producers and some rich arab sheiks. Our gas price would go down even further if we could drill more of the useless frozen land in alaska. In addition there are a massive number of untaped oil fields in the former soviet union, which have not been taped BECAUSE it would take a small inital startup cost that the russians dont have, and we wont provide it because opec is still cheaper, but dont tell me we will run out of oil, not going to happen. PS global warming is real it just dosent matter from an economic standpoint, changes in temperture have been 1/4th of what was expected, the sea level isnt going to rise anytime soon, and finally the spread of tropical disease to higher latitudes is caused more by contamination and improper sewage then heat (or why you dont see yellow fever in florida).
While you are right gas isnt cheap everywhere I am currently in georgia and the cheapest 87 octain is $1.09 at citgo. I maintain gas mialage only costs you $1250 if you have 20mpg average (most cars do much better). When comparing economy cars gas mialage is only worth $500-$700 due to them all having better then 25mpg average.

regfootball

15k does not buy you a current up to date model these days with a full complement of what some consider necessary items these days like cruise, automatic, PW, PL, ABS, CD.

15k may buy you a said car that is heavily rebated and / or undesirable. IE these cars are usually market lemons, at the end of their run, and or have been on the market tooooooo long (CAVALIER!!!).

I highly doubt Saturn will be letting a contented Ion with automatic and CC, PW, PL, ABS out the door for 15k.

Maybe in the world of 5 speed no option cars sure. But this will not represent a large portion of sales.

A coworker just bought a Passat GL. Not much more than 17,500 with automatic and power stuff, ABS, plus keyless entry. She's been getting all sorts of complements around the office for what a sharp looking car she bought.

Proteges and Focus similarly loaded are about the same or a bit less.

I don't see GM/Saturn trying to undercut these cars.

Cause remember you can dicker on other makes but not Saturns.

On Saturn an MSRP of 20 grand = you spend 20 grand.

On other makes you can often buy the car for 10 percent off list. Plus even more off for rebates, etc.

hpulley4

So the 5-speed manual is a Getrag, made in Italy, I'm pretty sure. 5-speed auto is made in Japan, I heard it was also used in the Volvo V40 (which is actually based upon a Mitsubishi but made in Denmark). CVT is made in Hungary, and still not available in the VUE. I'm not knocking nationalities here, just showing the global nature of GM's products.

dindak

Why bring a used car into the discussion? Apples and oranges again.

Fact is base small cars including the new ION are all in the U$15K range. Lots of these base cars are sold every year, you see them on the streets everywhere. One of the secretaries in our office just bought a base Protege 5-speed with no options. It's all she could afford. Maybe you and your friends don't look at these, but lets face it people with less money and students on a budget do. Saturn prices will be competitive just like they are now. A S-series is about they same as what you would pay for any small car and the ION will be no different.

verozahl

Point about wheeling and dealing is valid. Saturn says take it or leave it.

Regfootball and Shamgun have it right. I received a GM full-line brochure in the mail a couple of days ago and opened it up to 'small cars.' UGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! The ION is desperately needed, but I won't be advising any of my several friends looking for new cars to even think about it.

regfootball

a BRAND NEW JETTA GL, not a Passat....sorry.

JETTA.

Dindak...you and I both know this Ion will bear a price of at least 17k with a typical complement of options. This is the way GM does business.

Do you want ABS? Automatic? CD? Cruise. Tally it all up on a Saturn and you've just added 2000-2500 to the "base" price. Add power windows and locks buried into some package and you have added maybe close to 3 grand on a 'base' car. And you better check to make sure the defroster is on there and the intermittent wipers too. Small cars like to make that kinda stuff optional.

The reason the S was so cheap is because it was HORRENDOUSLY DATED! Saturn has a wierd policy of no rebates so they had to cut the sticker to move any ion...er....iron.

Good business policy in the auto business means...new design + new platform = charge more than the previous model.

The Altima is a good example of this. It is similar to the Ion in that they made the car bigger and gave it a big new powertrain. They responded by jacking the price.

dindak

Hummm.. last time I checked Honda, Toyota and all the other imports also charged extra for ABS, CD, cruise, ect. Why do you think the ION will be un competitively priced??? Do you know something we don't? All other Saturns are competitively priced so why would ION be different?

Before you judge everything, wait until you see the car and see the real pricing. Speculating the worst will happen makes no sense.

logic1

One of the postives of the Delta platform is the large number of cars it will base. The ION is only the first NA car with the Delta platform. The Cavalier will have the Delta platform, as will the Sunfire if not discontinued. There is also a Chevrolet Matrix/Vibe like cross-over in planning as well. The Solstice will probably be made.

Bottom line is that GM will have more sales its amortize primary research and development costs than it had with the S-series and than what Nissan has with the Altima. I think the GM will be able to keep the ION pricing very low and still make the $700 to 1K per unit which is about as well as any of the mfgs get in this market segment.

tomcat630

"What happened to the Civic-sized car?"
The auto buying public demanded bigger vehicles and more room in their old sub compacts.

"Again, I ask, why have the extra length if it doesn't add space?" Actually it's to make a better crumple zone for safety in a crash.

Saturn makes a bigger car and get chastized. Toyotas and Hondas grow with every redesign and they are "improved". Another double standard for domestics.

dindak

I think a bigger car is nothing but a good thing as long as price or performance is not affected. The ION looks to be a very competitive car and the larger size is a big part of that. North Americans like bigger and that's what they are getting in all new compact cars.

Saw some pictures of the Sky and noticed the center gauges also. Interesting and a very nice car.

logic1

As for space, the additional size will add significant trunk space. No doubt the engine compartment will be more open and easier to access. The wheels are futher from the occupants, meaning improved ride. So there are overall benefits from the extra inches.

subzero206

wow that is an ugly steering wheel. that guage placement is kind of cool though like in the toyota echo/prius.

regfootball

lets see shall we? I bet u a Canadian dollar that it won't be possible to get a Saturn Ion with all of these essential options (which are frequently purchased by a majority of buyers....

Cruise
Defroster
ABS
Automatic
Power Windows
Power Locks
Power Mirrors
CD Player
Intermittent Wipers

for less than 17k.

A Focus ZTS with cloth seats and just ABS comes in at 17,200.

A Neon virtually the same is at 16,900.

A Mitsubishi Lancer LS with ABS comes in at 17,300.

I see no reason why Saturn won't price their MSRP right in the same area.

regfootball

if you want a stripper Ion you may be able to get one for 15 grand but that's not really a smart buy to spend so much for a stripped car when you can save a bunch and get a Kia or a Hyundai for a lot less than 15 grand if a stripper is what you really want.

lngtonge18

Sorry, you got it all wrong. Safety depends on a strong structure and weight, not length. The 4 top rated small cars in the offset impact (Lancer, Civic, Impreza, Beetle) are all under 180" long. The Beetle is a miniscule 161". How do you explain its excellent crash test scores? It's certainly not because it's a long car. Secondly, the Saturn was chastized for growing longer because it was already long to begin with. None of the new Japanese cars are longer then 178". The current S series is 178". So, why is it that everyone considers this already long compact a cramped car? Is it because it simply had poor interior packaging?? I think we have a winner (ding ding is heard off in the distance)! Making the car even longer is not the answer. Solve its packaging issues, and there would be no need to make it longer since the Lancer, Civic, and Corolla are definitely not cramped anymore and still manage to be shorter then the S series. If the Ion wants to be the longest car in its class by over 6", then I would expect it to have class leading interior space. As it stands now, all it has to answer for its almost mid-size car length is a big trunk. Woopee!! Does no one else see this? 93 cu ft of interior space is average for this class.

dindak

regfootball : I highly doubt the majority of compact cars have all those "essential options". Whatever, we shall see when the pricing is released.

subzero : I have seen more photos and the steering wheel in other colors looks a bit better. It's definitely a strange wheel though.

magnetophone

My Focus has power windows, power locks, CD, ABS, automatic, 16" alloys, and traction control and was 15,500.

speculative

You drive a focus? So when did they start importing them to Greece?

regfootball

yes, what YOU paid. what was the MSRP though? I am sure you were able to NEGOTIATE a better price than MSRP. Saturn buyers aren't allowed to do that.

and what year? If its a 2001, adjust that price by 4 or 5 % for one year of inflation.

Remember, for Saturn, MSRP=price.

For Ford, MSRP-10%-rebate=price usually. Only idiots pay anything close to sticker for Fords.

Every now and then you see ads for new TAURUSES in the low 16 range. That price, though you are missing ABS and power locks. Otherwise, you've got the essential options.

My sister bought a ZX3 with advance trac and cloth but with a sunroof for mid 15's last year. I know the sedans cost more. I believe hers stickered in the low 17 range. Great car, by the way. I'd love to take a Focus SVT out for a spin. I'll bet that car rocks. At least the gauges are in front of the steering wheel.

regfootball

I'd bet your MSRP was at least 17.

magnetophone

it was 17,100.

magnetophone

Still, there are Sentras for 15,000 fully loaded, as well as Elantras (Elantra GT's for that matter), Lancers, etc.

I think if Saturn basically charged about 1K less than other cars' stickers it would do ok.

hpulley4

The new Aerio sedan also has a 14 cubic foot trunk. Only 171" long. It is a tall subcompact so the passenger volume is about the same too. I'm not sure the height really makes it much more useful but for people who only shop on paper, it gives better numbers.

dindak

No big 10% discounts at Toyota or Honda though. I've heard even Nissan is being sticky with Sentra pricing.

jimbeaumi

Re: your Focus/Greece comment. The Focus is a European design, built in several place around the world. They don't have "our" car, we have theirs, and just build it here.

tomcat630

"Woopee!! Does no one else see this? "

Then don't buy an Ion.

Next?

magnetophone

I don't live in Greece, silly...but they do sell the Focus in Greece:

http://www.ford.gr/fo2/index.html

regfootball

at 15 k does not have ABS.

alternator

click on:

   http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2002/newyork/highlights/h04-saturn-ion.html

I cannot stomach the central dash myself!

nwng

anyone who went to the auto show sat in an ION? How are the seat material and comfort? (front & back). I sat in a 01 S series 4 dr and the back seat is literally a park bench.

teo

The steering wheel is simply grotesque!

I am not yet convinced about the center stacked instrument cluster panel.

The rest seems pretty much run of the mill. Perhaps the interior looks and feels better in person.

Still Pontiac Vibe for us. This Delta platform smells of fiasco to me. The ION pretty mediocre from those pictures and the Cavalier replacement still 2 years away. I can't believe Maximum Bob Lutz dropped the ball on this one!

Bob Lutz: Nice gestion in bringing the Holdens, but these Delta cars need work if you ever going to think that you are going to have a worthy GM response to the successful Ford Focus.

logic1

The author in the linked article brings up an interesting point on the length of the ION. The ION will be significantly taller than the S, allowing a much higher seating position. Tall short vehicles are less stable than tall long vehicles. It appears there are interior seating advantages from the additional length.

nwng:

The rear seat in the L is very comfortable. The ION is closer to L size than S size. Imagine there will be plenty of room and comfort in the rear seat.

As for your question about anyone sitting in the ION. I doubt it. Most car companies do not let consumers sit in prototypes for obvious reasons. You will have to wait for next year's auto show when regular models are available to sit in an ION.

sttropez1

When will this monstrousity be released to the public?

hpulley4

is what I heard.

dindak

teo : The Focus is successful? If lots of recalls and now an investigation by the U.S. government are deemed successful, I hope the ION is not.

alternator : Center stack is something you just get used to. It's really not a big deal.

dindak

http://www.canadiandriver.com/previews/03ion.htm

hpulley4

Car of the year awards, best small car sales numbers, etc. It seems the public doesn't mind tons of recalls year after year, now with people getting burned by the airbags, engine fires, rear wheels falling off from rusted out bearings. And these aren't just on 2000MY cars either, most affect 2001s and some even affect early 2002s. This wasn't a new vehicle by any stretch either as it was based on the Escort and had a year or two in Europe before returning to NA.

Saturn's 2000MY L-series had many bugs and got slammed for it. The Focus was even worse but the styling, handling and cheap price keep them driving off the lots. Some lessons to be learned there I guess.

300silverbulit

I was at the show on saturday. You couldn't touch the ION's. They where fenced off spinning on turntables. The saturn reps said they diddn't even have the polymer panels yet.

The sedan was basically a wallflower. It looks like a solid compact modern sedan like many others there.

The quad coupe was stealing the display though. It looked really good. It had the carbon fiber roof rails and dash treatment which looked good with the blue color.

They wouldn't give up anything on pricing. I asked about the engines and they said there will only be one trim/power level.

They gave out specs for the sedan in a small brochure.

One note from it is the engine power; 137 hp @ 5,600 rpm. and 142 ft/lbs torque @ 4,200 rpm.

So you really have to rev it to get to the power.

there are going to be 3 trim levels.

I like the copue, however at this point I think I will lease for the first time to get a base ION sedan to replace my commuter SL2. All I need is A/C, side air bags and the VTi trans and CD stereo.

Saturn pricing was very flawed for the s series. It is better with the VUE and L's.

I hope it is compettive. They where supposed to have fair no haggle prices. It may have started that way but the S series is a high priced no haggle compact. MSRP's should not be paid for most mass market cars. saturn kept MSRP prices more or close to the other brands which can be had for no haggle invoice range prices from carsdirect ect.

1badhippie

Several people have been taking Lutz to task regarding various design aspects of the Ion: "How could you let this happen!" etc...etc.

Anyone consider that it may have been too late in the design process to make major changes? He's only been on the job since September 2001, remember. Not only that, the S-series sedan and coupe haven't had a major redesign since they were introduced in 1991...12 years and counting.

What would you change? Some people don't like the front of the sedan...looks too much like the last generation Sentra. The coupe's front? Some say there are similarities to the Cavalier, and the bumper cutouts for the headlights remind some of the Acura RSX. Rear of the sedan? Altima similarities, and tail lights of coupe kinda Neon-like. Others don't like the design of the B-pillar.

And then there's the interior. OK...move the IP to the left, redesign and possibly reposition the steering wheel (another sore point), and you're probably looking at a fresh batch of crash tests to please the Feds.

I'd say that Saturn would rather receive negative feedback regarding a new design as opposed to continuing negative feedback regarding the age of the current S-series.

Are they taking a chance with a radical design for the instrument panel? You bet! Is it a polarizing design? Yep! Perhaps GM & Lutz decided to go ahead with an all-new car now, instead of delaying it for 6 months or more to redesign it simply because some folks said "I don't like it." They can get a new product on the market, hope it boosts sales, and then make running changes if needed.

The bottom line as to whether the public accepts the Ion will be the sales numbers when it hits dealerships.

Chris

dindak

From a sales point, it's been good for Ford but in North America I see sales plumiting with this investigation. Ford has so many issues with so many vehicles it's scary. Actually it's sad as I know Ford could be doing better than it is.

seminole_kev

then you should have seen all the GM vehicles that were also listed in that investigation.

hpulley4

Several Ford vehicles, but not the Focus this time, have problems with their suspension springs rusting out and breaking. This could cause a tire puncture so they had a recall. Did the recall replace the springs with new ones that wouldn't corrode on salted winter roads??? NO!!! They put a shield in there so if/when the spring breaks it doesn't give you a blow-out. You'll have to replace the springs at your own cost. I thought they would fix it properly...

Lots of manufacturers, including BMW with their SUV, are having recalls but Ford really seems to be in the news these days. As Dindak said, their sales seem to be hurting, perhaps partly for that reason.

speculative

Just picked up consumer reports today. Its surprising how poorly all american manufacturers (including my beloved corvette) rate in terms of reliability. Ford was a little worse over all then GM, Chrysler was about the same as ford. In all of them quality varied significantly car by car. So you could have 1 car good and one horrible from the same manufacturer. Saturn was OK, which is by far better then ford's as a whole, but worse then Toyota.
I like the ION. Having said that I will never need to drive one. Also whats up with the instrament gauge in the middle. Thats absurd. It forces the driver t take his or her eyes off the road much longer then a simple glance down would. Bad idea. Mini did the same thing with there tach but thankfully there speedomiter is on the stering column.

tomcat630

Of course one never sees any "Classic Corolla" car shows anywhere, so CR is just one opinion.

regfootball

"Ford has so many issues with so many vehicles it's scary."

Some recalls sure. But the LS was the first American sedan to be favorably compared to the big boys overseas, and Ford was the only US company building anything close to real driving machines from 83 on until Chrysler woke up in the late 90's. GM is just now coming out of its coma.

The product issues have worsened a bit lately for Ford, but the Explorer deal was a Firestone deal (seriously, even at 26 psi those treads should stay on there) and the other stuff certianly was not to the magnitude of a Pinto incident.

Ford's product experiences have been no different and in fact are still better than what was the norm for GM from the early eighties until about 92.

dindak

speculative : CR is a whole discussion on it's own. Lets just say there are flaws in what they report and some people might even say bias. I think CR is ok, but it's far from the best and one of many opinions out there.

I don't think the center stack is dangerous? People spend more time looking at the radio and other controls than they do checking the speed. I've driven the Echo and believe me, it's not that big a deal. BTW, I really like the Mini, I just wish it was priced a little lower.

laysmackdown

Saw it at the NY Car Show. A little Chrysler Neon in design, Toyota Echo on the inside, and GM's classic UGLY styling on the outside. Looks like GM has successfully squandered the Saturn advantage it had in the early 90's and killed the marque. Good job, GM!