Saturn ION

tomcat630

Hey, it's your opinion, but let's see what buyers think. If one hates GM already, I take whatever they say with salt.

regfootball

with a polarizing design when a success is so crucial?

Suturn small car is the critical poroduct in their line. They should be offering a product that is not polarizing. Even if 50% seem enamored by it, the negative response by the other 50% gives a bad marketing image.

Why can't GM make a Civic knockoff and match it in quality and driving with a pleasant but inoffensive interior? Just ONE car in GM's stable should be this way.

I think people think highly enough of Saturn that if the cars looks weren't polarizing or wierd in ANY way, that alone would INCREASE sales.

They just want a normal car like an Accord.

afk_x

"One note from it is the engine power; 137 hp @ 5,600 rpm. and 142 ft/lbs torque @ 4,200 rpm.

So you really have to rev it to get to the power"

This is far from true. Thats where the engine develops its MAXIMUM power. 90% of the 2.2 ECOTEC power is available at 2200 RPM.

hpulley4

power is horsepower and that maximum is high. 90% of the torque is available at 2200RPM which means it has good pull around town. That said, it really does rip when you floor the automatic to merge onto the freeway, staying in gear until 6000RPM or so.

dindak

The only thing polarizing about the ION is the center mounted gauges. The car's looks are far from polarizing, but they are a little bit unique which is needed as the car will get lost in the crowd. I will say the coupe pictures look better than the sedan so far.

300silverbulit

List the "estimated" base price of the ION at $13,500 and $18,500. they also listed a 'estimated" 0-60 time of 8.5 seconds.

For a no haggle price that is kind of high. If the standard features are more like the L series that isn't such a high price. If that is similar to the current S series features they are outpricing themselves. Espicially if the buyers don't like the center guages.

The new Suzuki Aerio sedan and Corolla sedan offer alot for about $14,000.

If you wan't a car that looks like a SC. Has the ecotec engine, but no polymer. Check out the 2003 Sunfire. Motor Trend had a shot about it also. They really think it looks the SC. It looks more like a squezzed trans am. The SC's have always looked better than any Sunfire.

300silverbulit

Wasn't transmission specific. it is only there guess anyway. If true that is a acceptable time for most traffic. My L300 was tested by edmunds at 7.6 I believe. It is more than enough for what I need most of the time.

I will say that is fine for me and proably most other commuters. That is what I would wan't a bsae ION sedan with VTi trans for anyway. There should be a high performance supercharged version available though. like the ecotec in the SKY roadster. Obviously there is a market for those compacts. Will GM allow saturn to really compete against chevy and Pontiac using the same engine for the same class of car is interesting. Who will get that ecotec supercharger and first, then all will get it??

tomcat630

"Why can't GM make a Civic knockoff?" Then they would be accused of "copying", correct? And for years, they were called dull, so why keep it up? If you like a Honda, then get one and quit complaining about Saturns.

And I for one am sick of "marketing image". This make all cars look alike and have the same boring biege color.

Also, Honda's new Element SUV is certainly "polarizing". But all the H fans will fawn over it, since the name on the hood is "socially correct"

speculative

Your right it is biased. But it is much more accurate for 4 year reliability then say JD power, they consistantly give crappy ratings (they say my vette is good reliability... fool's). If there is a better test out there of reliability Id like to know.

logic1

You make a good point. There will be supercharged versions of the ecotec available. GM had to rotate the ecotec to make it and the supercharger fit in the prototype Solstice. But the Solstice supercharger would get 240 hp.

I think the ION engine compartment should be big enough to accomodate a smaller supercharger that nevertheless brings the ION up to 200 hp without rotating the engine.

If the Delta platform is a pliable as GM suggests, perhaps GM would be able to profitably build a limited edition ION coupe with the same engine configuration proposed for the Solstice.

dindak

tomcat : L-series tried to be as dull as the Camry/Accord. Most people didn't go for it as you may as well just buy the Accord rather than taking a chance. A slightly unique flavor is needed and ION has it for the most part.

speculative : I prefer JD Power.

regfootball

the ion has the same "look" as pontiacs do.

that, and a wierd interior.

that it why it won't sell like hotcakes. the Ion won't overtake the Civic or Focus any time soon.

dindak

ION looks nothing like a Pontiac.

Saturn does not have the manufacturing capacity to "overtake" the top sellers.

regfootball

was created by GM to be an import fighting division.

In order to be successful to the cause then, Saturn has to create cars that 'import intenders' will buy. The traits of the car must be favorable to those who would otherwise buy the best from Japan and elsewhere.

THAT'S THE POINT BEHIND SATURN. That, and not wanting to dicker on price.

So then, why does Saturn make cars like the Ion that basically duplicate cars like the Sunfire and Cavalier, i.e. cars that primarily appeal only to GM fans and 'American' car fans.

There is nothing about the look and design of the Ion that would attact the exact buyers the division was intended to create. It looks like another typical offshoot of Detroit, which automatically eliminates millions of small car buyers.

That's why I say Saturn should not look act or feel like Chevy's and Pontiacs...BUT IT STILL DOES. A chevy or Pontiac badge could sit right on the grille or that sta-puf steering wheel and would not at all look out of place on this Ion. Saturns have the same offbeat generic GM feel as Grand Ams and Cavaliers. The interiors have the same plastics and flimsy switchgear. The L series is somewhat of an exception, with some Euro heritage...but the Saturn team killed that when they restyled the front end of the 2003 L to look more like a typical GM face.

The Ion looks solid in the powertrain department but come-on! There is nothing here that a Protege, Civic, Corolla, RSX, Golf and Jetta buyer (the prime market players) would consider as a legitimate alternative. So by that nature the car misses the marketing mark....BECAUSE SATURN WAS CREATED TO COMPETE WITH THE 'IMPORT' CARS! SATURN WAS CREATED TO GET THE BUYERS THAT WOULD OTHERWISE BUY HONDAS TOYOTAS MAZDAS VW'S!

regfootball

they would build another plant or add a second shift.

they would have no problem doing that if the sales did take off. But they put out a package with a polarizing design which eliminates many buyers right at the word go. This limits sales.

instead, they have to run the plants at half capacity because they don't design the car to appeal to anyone besides GM fans.

Civics sell like hotcakes because in addition to being good mechanically they are a design that is widely accepted. This is the key to selling big in volume markets.

Now Saturn is not a "niche" manufacturer. Saturn competes in high volume market segments and has a goal of many more cars per dealer than even other GM divisions....Saturn is mass market...NOT NICHE....Saturn was created to be the 'peoples car' and an 'import fighter'. Saturns goal is to compete directly for sales with Civics and the like and GM handicaps the car from day one with a polarizing design which is guaranteed to limit sales while the (yes) bland Civic will continue to roll on the sales charts because its more tasteful and palatable to the masses.

dindak

You constantly jump from topic to topic with out ever answering questions posed to you.

FACT is Saturn does attract more import buyers than any other domestic brand. FACT is Saturn service, sales and quality are all extremely good (even tops).

You are shooting from the lip claiming you know how other people feel about Saturn ION before it's even come out. Most people have not even seen the car yet. You haven't seen the car yet!!

Give me a break!!!!

1badhippie

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Solstice was designed to be rear-drive to begin with. The engine was not rotated simply to make the supercharger fit; I doubt Lutz said, "Gee, I wanted a front-drive roadster, but darn it, we're going to have to make it rear drive just so that supercharger will fit."

The engine is bolted to a 6-speed manual tranny from the Camaro.

Chris

regfootball

logic1

You are correct. The Solstice was meant to be rwd from the start. Rotating the engine did create room for the supercharger.

I do not know whether the Solstice supercharger would fit in the ION.

All of the May issue buff rags have a piece on the forthcoming PT Cruise GT, which can accomodate a supercharger in a pretty small place. Perhaps GM will be able to do the same with the ION.

300silverbulit

The handout from Saturn has the SKY equipped with a supercharged 2.2 ecotec engine. Rated at 180 hp and 190 ft. lbs/torque.

Since this was printed on a brochure given out at the NY auto show. I took it as fact and not just a rumor.

They diddn't say the SKY would be built. However the engine is the same as the ION's so there must already be a supercharger ready to go. In a front drive compact car....

dindak

I really hope they build that car. It would be a blockbuster hit if priced well.

hpulley4

...effectively just a convertable ION coupe with a supercharger so I don't think it would be too hard to build it. The real question is, will Pontiac let Saturn be the first GM division to sport a production supercharged ECOTECH?

1badhippie

Let's HOPE GM will...since the Solstice is nowhere near being production ready. Plus, Pontiac has teased us with supercharged prototype engines long enough...GM management was too ignorant to actually allow production.

Maybe Lutz will finally let each division have its own performance model (or at least models that are not identical, mechanically, such as the Camaro/Firebird), instead of sharing them...at least for awhile. Any day now I await the announcement that Chevy wants a version of the recently announced GTO.

Chris

vocus

Saw it at the NYIAS. The sedan isn't too bad looking, but not too much different from the current S Series on the outside. The coupe is UGLY. I hated the lines on it, looked nasty. Especially around that quad door in the back. Ugh!

alternator

my earlier posting, here are (what I believe to be) the most detailed pictures of the 2003 Saturn ION released to date:

http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2002/newyork/highlights/h04-saturn-ion.html

dindak

The strip on the top of the car can apparently be changed or left the same color of the car. Apparently you can also change the dash colors with different face plates.

I think the sedan is pretty nice. Unfortunately I can't wait till the fall.

sttropez1

Ugly, ugly

dindak

You have probably never even seen it. Thanx for popping in.

sttropez1

Well, unless the pics don't do justice to the ION my preliminary observations tell me that this car is not a good effort design wise. It is clearly geared towards Saturn fans.

The Delta II platform appears to be a different story, however.

dindak

The VUE is the first vehicle they have made that I like. The ION looks to be the second. The SKY looks amazing.

sttropez1

But the SKY will not see production according to the latest info. The VUE is interesting (CVT transmission) but the interior is subpar. I will reserve judgement on the IOn when I get to see it in person, but that Echo interior and weird steering wheel doesn't bode too well in my mind.

vocus

CR tested a VUE for its latest issue. They hit one of those rubber traffic cones, and the cone knocked a piece of the fender out. It broke it right off. That seems very cheaply built to me.

sttropez1

The VUE feels flimsy to the touch. A problem I haven't seen in other cheaper Saturn cars.

I hope the ION is solidly built and a blast to drive. So far the looks are a big toss up.

alternator

or "Toss Up" like in Lose Your Lunch?

sttropez1

Both.

dindak

I suppose CR hates the VUE anyway. They hate anything made by GM.

Hit anything with speed and it's bound to do damage to a car.

sttropez1

"I suppose CR hates the VUE anyway. They hate anything made by GM."

Sorry I disagree.

Actually a number of GM vehicles are currently endorsed and recommended by CR.

The VUE ain't a Ford Escape or Mazda Tribute if you know exactly what I mean.

dindak

VUE is on par with Escape and CR-V over all (the class sales leaders). I like it better. Have you ever driven one??

CR does not like GM, it's well known. How many GM vehicles do they recommend vs. other publications? Answer : hardly any.

regfootball

for good reason, usually there are better choices.

magnetophone

dindak, when there are Passats and Camrys against Impalas, what would be the natural choice?

Lord, add the Altima and new Mazda 6 and you've got one outwitted automobile (two actually, the Malibu and Impala.)

CR does not have a hatred towards GM. GM fanatics just take that as an easy excuse. The truth is until recently GM cars were not worth recommending.

sttropez1

"dindak, when there are Passats and Camrys against Impalas, what would be the natural choice?

Lord, add the Altima and new Mazda 6 and you've got one outwitted automobile (two actually, the Malibu and Impala.)"

If I had the choice of the Impala vs the Passat and Camry, I still take the Impala. If I wanted it a silkier sedan with Luxury touches I'll take the Passat. The Camry just doesn't move me either way. The Impala and Passat overshadow it, even after the recent Camry redesign.

I have not seen the Mazda 6 in person, but preliminary photos indicate this car resembles a wider and bigger Protege at least in looks. I really like the Altima, but I am awaiting for its safety results. Nissans have generally rate very poorly in safety in recent years.

So I would be happy with either Impala, Passat or Altima any day of the week.

nwng

anyone here has info about other ion body styles? wagon, 5 door hatch..., or it's gonna be a chevy.

dindak

Comparing to the Chevy sedan isn't fair. At least compare a Passat/Camry to a Regal or an Intrigue. The Impala is an ok car (I think CR even recommends it), but it's much more basic transportation.

hpulley4

Maybe in 2004 MY but haven't seen any plans for one.

sttropez1

The Malibu is a lousy car. The Impala is actually the only Chevrolet car worth considering, aside from the Corvette.

dindak

Malibu is ok for the money. Nothing special for sure. Edmunds really likes it which is a shocker.

verozahl

hear hear... but it seems the Crapalier is due for a restyle, probably because even the joke that is the ION will make it look really bad.

RonaH

Will the four cylinder engine in the 2003 Ion be the same engine that is in the 4 cylinder L series now? What are the options for the engine in this new model coming out?

dindak

Yep.. the 2.2L Ecotec. You will have the option of a 5-speed automatic, a CVT or a 5-speed stick shift (likely a Getrag). Check out www.saturnfans.com. Lots of info there.

logic1

linked to some photoshop mock-ups of what the Ion may look like in hatch and wagon form. Frankly, there are some people on Edmunds who are better with photoshop.

Still, I hope the Saturn designers are following the site.

There definitely should be a ION hatch. What Saturn should really do is make a 5 door hatch to go with the sedan and the coupe instead of a two door hatch and a wagon.