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Saturn ION

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Comments

  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    You said in part:

    "I don't think the center IP is any big deal."

    It's a VERY BIG DEAL when 99% of the cars are built with the gauges right in front of you. This is GM cost cutting at it's finest. Just like the smal steering wheel of the last couple of years just to save a FEW BUCKS ON PLASTIC.


    I disagree. Saturn was trying to be innovative, like on the Echo and Scion xA and xB (I owned both an Echo and xA at different points in time). It wasn't to cost cut. If they were cost cutting they would have stuck with the same layout as on every other car on their line.
  • robert4380robert4380 Member Posts: 8
    Maybe this is just the way I drive, but I think everyone's overlooking something important with respect to center mounted gauges. Anyone who drives a manual transmission, or simply likes to keep a hand in the 12 o'clock position on the wheel, knows that it's a pain to constantly keep lifting one's wrist up to see the speedometer. Usually the tach is on the left, and the speedometer on the right, and your hand always blocks it. If you drive like a granny and always keep your hands at 10 and 2, then fine, I see your point, the gauges are right in front of you. But if you like to have one hand at the top of the wheel and the other on the shifter, you never have to take your hand off the wheel to see the gauges if they're mounted in the center. I drive an Ion manual transmission, and personally, there was almost no adjustment period involved when it came to looking at the dash. It's second nature for me to look sideways instead of down.

    A previous post mentioned that everything is designed to be looked at right in front of the driver, such as with the radio buttons on the steering wheel. They aren't put there to be looked at... You're supposed to just feel them there and use them without even looking at the wheel.

    Another post added that Toyota thought center gauges were a mistake with its Echo. Why are there spy shots out there of the new Echo (Yaris, as known overseas) with a very high tech looking center gauge cluster? If they did in fact admit it was a mistake, I wouldn't think Toyota would mess up twice. Also, to the best of my knowledge Suzuki never used center gauges. Their last goof up was with the digital dash on the Aerio, but it was in the traditional position in front of the driver.

    In conclusion, to each their own I guess. I'm sure many people who bought Ions bought them partially because maybe they like the gauges in the middle. I wouldn't buy a car if I'd be so displeased with something I have to look at every day, like a speedometer. I'd like to encourage Saturn to continue to use this dash layout in future designs (but without the jigsaw puzzle look to it).

    As an aside, my 2005 Ion has had a fair amount of warranty work done, but the service has always been excellent. I'm not terribly worried at this point because GM will be paying for anything that goes wrong with the car up until 60,000 miles.
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    What sort of warranty work has your car required? if you don't mind me asking...
  • kurtamaxxguykurtamaxxguy Member Posts: 677
    ..is they do not shine light on you, which in turn, reflects off you and onto the windshield at night. I got used to the center gauges in my Ions (now gone, both lemons) about two weeks. But one bad feature of those gauges was the decision to use black numbers on white, and backlight the black numbers. Thus, in twilight or dawn conditions, the gauges could not be read due to low contrast between numbers and gaugeback.

    CU pretty much has nailed the Ion, and Car and Driver agrees. Also remember the Ion does poorly in side impacts.

    Supposedly a rebadged Cobalt will take the place of the plastic bodied Ion after 2006.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    "Supposedly a rebadged Cobalt will take the place of the plastic bodied Ion after 2006"

    Uh.. no that's not true. A modified Opel Astra is likely what you will see ION look like.
  • manueltrans1manueltrans1 Member Posts: 136
    vanman1: Today we took a walking touring through the 'dealer's alley' in Manhattan, New York City on 11th Avenue I got to a BMW, MINI DIVISION and sat down in a Mini in the driver's seat and discovered that the MINI does not have all the gauges in the center. Directly in front of the steering colum is one of the biggest tachometers I have ever seen, well, in a tiny car. Although the speedometer and the fuel gauge are in the center of the MINI. The MINI weights a lot more than the Saturn and lists price for $20,000, starting. But it is a heavy car for its size. I sat in a Nissan Quest too, and looked inside a Scion.The Nissan Quest have the gauge in the center, but it is farther away than a Saturn Ion, and feels different. In the Scion division of Toyota, not all the Sions have gauges in the middle, some models have normal gauges. As to the Toyota Echo, it is like the Saturn, the gauges are in the middle. But still each car feels slightly different. And all feels abnormal to me. By the way I like the feeling of control exerted by a manual transmission, while moving the shifter, my right hand is not on the wheel, so there is no shielding of the center. It is when I shift with my right hand when I desire to look for the tachometer in front of the steering column, when it is not there, I get disappointed. By the way, the Saturn Redline have the same arrangement as the MINI, although the fuel gauge and the speedometer is in the center, the Tachometer is attached to the steering colum right in front of your eyes. Also from reading this board I have found out that there are individual preferences as to where the gauge is, and the center position does get some use to, especially for those of us who are encountering it for the first time. I do prefer them in the normal postion though,, specially for the tachometer. And thanks to all for your opinions.
  • robert4380robert4380 Member Posts: 8
    allfiredup,

    At 2500 miles the BCM had to be replaced and the computer reprogrammed because the Passlock security system light kept coming on.

    Around 3000 miles a daytime running light housing was replaced because it was defective. GM currently has a "campaign" on running lights because they seem to go out on almost every GM car. Just look at the large number of Silverados out there with only one light on!

    At 9000 miles I hit the big time. I had the front rotors replaced because they were already warping, I had the computer reprogrammed again because my gauges were jumping around at times, and I had a window regulator replaced because my crank up window had something snap inside. This was all done under warranty, no questions asked.

    Again, service was excellent, but I'm hoping the bugs in my car will slowly go away. In terms of power and comfort I do enjoy the car, and like I said earlier, as long as GM keeps paying the repair bill I won't mind it so much.
  • legalseclegalsec Member Posts: 31
    I can tell that you're having quite the dilemma right now! I feel you. I can't imagine what it must be like to be such a loyal Saturn customer but at the same time, be so put off by the ION. I became an admirer of the ION design after test-driving it in '03 along with 3 other college-student (~$12K) cars. The ION's design/production has been so controversial apparently that total strangers approach us in parking lots to ask us questions about the car or our satisfaction with it.

    It's definitely NOT the volkswagen ("people's car") that the S-series was, but all this forum talk about Saturn being finished for good because of the ION makes me all emotional. :cry: I hope that Saturn continues to be innovative/cheap - whichever - but to simply exist (more competition = happy consumers). I've always liked this brand because it's always tried to be "different" (even if it meant cutting costs = legit business decision). Remember the good ol' days when the S series slayed the Ford Escort and Hyundai Excel? I should mention that I have a '92 SL1 sedan (white) which is still running well.

    My '03 ION2 sedan (silver) is also running great...on highways at 65-85 mph w/ the center console burning a lovely orange-red on the black background at night. I can drive the ION2 or the SL1 and without being distracted by the center console. It did take me a couple weeks to adjust to the dark area under the steering wheel after we initially bought the car. I even have the golfcart steering wheel, which I believe is an incidental safety feature because I can't stick my arms through it and drum out songs on the dashboard while I'm singing. I'm thus forced to actually use both my hands (at 2 & 10 o'clock) to hold onto the wheel while driving.

    Happy motoring! :P
  • vintagevintage Member Posts: 5
    Has anyone experienced their door panels coming loose? I have a 2005 4dr ion that both front doors and now the left rear door have had the plastic mounting tabs break loose, so the door starts off rattling when you close it, worst case it starts flapping in the wind when you drive it. With only 1,800 kms it is at the dealer now awaiting new panels and paint, needless to say I am not impressed. I also have a 2005 Vue that is not experiencing this yet. :confuse:
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    Chuck, I know I'm coming in to this about 6 weeks later; but, Saturn used a smaller steering wheel to make it easier to enter and exit the vehicle. Since the wheel did not have to be big to not obscure the gauges, they made it small to make it easier to move around. I thought it worked wonderfully in our 2003 ION.
  • chuck1chuck1 Member Posts: 1,405
    "smaller steering wheel to make it easier to enter and exit the vehicle."

    Your 100% correct! But the bottom line is the steering wheel WAS NOT ACCEPTED by the public. It was the #1 negative item that potential buyers noticed. That is why they changed it.
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    folks made such a big deal over the wheel, but they did. We don't have the '03 ION anymore, so I guess it's a moot point for us now anyway.
  • robert4380robert4380 Member Posts: 8
    I find it funny how all of the automotive magazines, and the often inaccurate Consumer Reports, all said that they hated things on the Saturn Ion like its original small steering wheel and the placement of the gauges. Now the new Honda Civic is out and guess what? It has a smaller steering wheel, and two seperate gauge pods. It also has a digital speedometer, which was totally ridiculed when it was used in the Suzuki Aerio. Who wants to bet that just because it's Honda they won't bring up these same gripes again?
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    You never hear about it when Honda or Toyota has a huge recall or when something does not go right with them. The new Ridgeline is not selling well (because it is both ugly and expensive); but, the Honda folks on the Ridgeline thread say they like the exclusivity they get with the Ridgeline. With an Accord or a Civic, they point to the huge sales as evidence of how good the cars are. It's amazing, in my opinion.
  • bporter1bporter1 Member Posts: 229
    There is a double standard in the auto industry, it seems like Honda and Toyota can do no wrong, but GM and Ford can't do anything right. It is and has been well documented the problems that GM and Ford have, and a lot of it brought on by themselves, but they are getting better. I do not want to get off the topic.
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    I'm just curious if anyone has driven an '06 with the "Enhanced Performance Package"? Interestingly this is the same engine (and possibly other bits) as the Chevy Cobalt SS Sedan, but haven't seen or heart anything on that one yet either.
  • cdavidhesscdavidhess Member Posts: 26
    I test drove a 2006 ION 3 with 2.4 liter engine and manual transmission yesterday. I had to drive it conservatively in the test drive so I can't really compare it to my 2003 ION. I did purchase it and am picking it up tomorrow afternoon. After I've broken it in, I'll give it a good "try" and let you know my impressions..
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    Please let us have all the details! This Ion is about $2,500 less than its Cobalt stable-mate in SS (non-supercharged) mode....
  • cdavidhesscdavidhess Member Posts: 26
    Yes, I was very impressed by the price. The MSRP was a shade under $16,000. In addition the dealer offered $750 down payment assistance and 4.9% financing.
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    Congrats! Did you get a sedan or coupe?

    I recently drove a Cobalt SS Sedan with the 2.4 and manual and found it to be a great combination. I'm sure it is very similar in the ION. The biggest benefit being that the ION is a significantly better value.

    Why did you have to be conservative in the test drive? Because of the salesman?

    I've had very heated arguments with salesmen when they wouldn't allow me to test drive the way I wanted. And usually I just drove it how I wanted anyway and let their sales managers know they scolded me when we got back to the dealer. The way I look at it, you should test drive it any way you want (within reason). Particularly because you have an ION, you should have felt comfortable pushing it to see just how much difference the new engine makes.

    Just my two cents worth. I hate salesmen who try to tell me how to drive and usually do my best to tick them off. ;)

    Again, congrats and let us know all about it!
  • cdavidhesscdavidhess Member Posts: 26
    I got the sedan. My test drive was in an area with low speed limits. The main reason I didn't really get on the car was that I knew there was a good chance I was going to purchase it and I didn't want to abuse it before it was broken in.

    The salesman was quite nice. Actually, I was his very first customer and sale.
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    That makes sense. I always insist on a car with as few miles as possible for that very reason- I don't want it to have been abused on multiple test drives.

    Guess it would be out of character for a Saturn salesperson to NOT be nice, huh?
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    The other question I have, is how are the noise levels in the 2.4 Ion at cruise, and what are the RPM? I just test drove a 2.2 Cobalt with stick shift, after coming off a Fusion test drive, and I couldn't tell much difference in sound levels between 70-80 mph on the Cobalt vs. the Fusion (which says nice things about the Quiet Steel etc. in the Cobalt and makes me wonder why the much more upscale Fusion wasn't quieter). Also the RPM in the Cobalt were pretty low, and the motor was smoother than in my ZX3 Focus (which is smoother than the 2.2 Ecotec in my former Cavalier, which doesn't make sense at all unless it's better motor mounts etc.).

    I am most interested in the noise and RPM at 80, the "new 65" here in Northern California.... (I did note that the gearing is lower on the final drive on the 2.4 Cobalt than on the 2.2 Cobalt; although the dealer had the SS Cobalt, it was only in automatic so I didn't drive it.)

    Thanks (and congratulations on your "hot" sleeper car....).
  • cdavidhesscdavidhess Member Posts: 26
    The engine seems quieter to me than my 2003 ION2. The gear ratios seem to be about the same.

    In 5th at

    60 mph - 2100 rpm
    70 mph - 2500 rpm
    80 mph - 2900 rpm

    I like the sport suspension. It has a nice balance between ride and handling.

    After I get 500 miles on the car, I will put the pedal to the metal and tell everyone what we all want to know.
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    Thanks. I have no complaints at all about the engine RPM at 80 mph that you are showing for the Ion - my VW Golf was about 4000 as was my Scion xA. I don't know what my current ride, a Focus ZX3, is pulling since the deleted (!?) the tachometer off the basic "S" trim model I have.

    From reports on the 2006 Civic thread, the rpm on the Civic at 80 are mid 3's.

    What kind of tires did they give you on the stock alloy wheels? Anything decent? Any plans to swap tires? GM's performance suspensions are usually pretty good, but the tires on most factory cars don't seem that performance oriented - at least they get bad reviews at Tire Rack. I was checking the stock size at Tire Rack, and it seems like you have a lot to choose from if you ever want to change....
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    cdavidhess- just curious, what color did you get?
  • cdavidhesscdavidhess Member Posts: 26
    The tires are Hankook Optiomo 418 - P205/55/16

    The car is Berry Red.

    You can see pictures at http://theparson.net/ion.htm
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    Looks very nice indeed! Ford is starting to use Hankook tires too. I had expected to see more Kumho's before Hankooks, but it looks like the Japanese will have to watch out, the Korean tire invasion is very much underway!
  • stan_top_downstan_top_down Member Posts: 52
    I agree, David - the car looks great. Enjoy driving it for many miles in good health! I'm still puttering around town in a '92 Metro LSI convertible - it's still fun in the sun in the TX panhandle, but with a 1L engine, I don't try to beat anyone to any speed beyond 30mph!
  • charlie18charlie18 Member Posts: 1
    This question may have been posted before but I was curious if anyone can tell me why the 2005-06 Saturn ION, which I really like and want to buy, has such different IIHS crash worthiness results from the Chevy Colbalt? They are so similar in body structure I just don't get it. I was planning on buying a new Saturn in the spring but I am concerned about how it did in those crash tests. I priced both cars out on Edmunds and although the Colbalt was more, with similar equipment, it wasn't all that much more. I just would rather deal with a Saturn dealership than Chevy and I like the looks of the Saturn better as well. Any thoughts?
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    It appears that the front impact ratings are exceptional for the ION and the side impact are at least acceptable. Actually, in NHTSA side impact tests the Cobalt scored worse than the ION.

    I think the ION is better looking outside, but the Cobalt interior is more appealing. I would say the Saturn is less expensive (it is base price) but as you mentioned when comparably equipped the prices are similar. One thing to keep in mind is that the Chevrolet dealer might be open to negotiating the price, the Saturn dealer won't.

    The Saturn dealer will certainly provide a better buying experience and customer service in the future. That counts for a lot.

    Good luck!
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    The difference in crash results could be due to any of the following:

    1. Variations in testing - I've heard the IIHS tests are a little "finicky";

    2. Use of polymer bolt on panels on the Ion instead of welded sheet metal on the Cobalt;

    3. Slightly different (?) mounting points for the door reinforcements;

    4. Different door liner materials.

    As the previous poster noted, the ratings of the Ion and Cobalt are actually reversed in the NHTSA and IIHS tests.

    I wouldn't prefer one car over the other. What is clear, however, is how much benefit you get from side curtain air bags. Since Saturn won't make the deal tougher if you have to order to get side curtains, that leans me towards Saturn on that point.
  • cdavidhesscdavidhess Member Posts: 26
    I finally got my first 500 miles on the car so I could try some full throttle runs. The car is definitely fast. According to Car and Driver, the Pontiac Solstice, with the same engine and similar weight, does zero to 60 in 7.2 seconds. According to the seat of my pants, that feels about right.

    Acceleraton is not peaky but is smooth throughout the rev range. It reminds me of a Ford Contour with 2.5L V6 and manual transmission that I owned previously.
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    I looked up the Cobalt side crash test on www.safercar.gov and in June the '05 Cobalt was modified with a different trim panel, retested, and picked up an extra star. It isn't the body or the crash bars, its stuff like trim that is affecting test scores.
  • stan_top_downstan_top_down Member Posts: 52
    Congratulations on the 500 miles. Could you give us an idea of your actual gas milage? I think the EPA is 26 city, 34 highway. Do those estimates seem accurate (when you're not testing acceleration)?

    Thanks, and enjoy the new car.
  • cdavidhesscdavidhess Member Posts: 26
    In the first 587.4 miles I averaged 27.3 miles per gallon. This was mostly suburban driving. I did have my foot in it quite a bit after I hit the 500 mile mark.
  • stan_top_downstan_top_down Member Posts: 52
    I don't doubt that you did - I would, too. I realized last evening just how enemic my 1992 Geo Metro convertible is - I'd been driving my wife's '02 Taurus (12 valve) all week - I got in the Metro last night, and I wondered where all the power went. I still prefer the Metro, though, especially on a warm, sunny day!

    Please keep us posted as you get more data - the 27.3 sounds very good.

    Drive the Ion for many miles in good health.
  • cntrygurlcntrygurl Member Posts: 12
    i bought my 2005 ion quad coupe 3 in feb. of 05 ,i also got used to the center gauges fast but after taking it back to the garage for the 14th time i had to get a lemon law lawyer ,now saturn is trying to figure out what to do with this car sine i told them i have a lawyer ,what was wrong with your cars that made them lemons and did saturn buy them back from you . :lemon:
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    Try to go on a consumer law website and find out about your particular state's laws. You don't necessarily need a lawyer, but there are some hoops you have to jumpt through. Since each state's laws differ, it's hard to give generic advice.
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    Do an internet search for your state government consumer affairs office. Also do a search for lemon law and your state.

    A friend of mine bought an '04 Ford F150 when they first came out and after one year, 48 days out of service and a total of 11 repair attempts, he decided to file for lemon law protection. I did the research for him and wrote the letters to Ford. I took about six weeks, but he got a new '05 model identical to his '04 and only paid about $700 for the 16k miles on the '04.

    FYI- it helps to firm, but not nasty when dealing with the manufacturer. Af first Ford didn't want to do an exchange, but I mentioned that I'd call the local new stations if they didn't work with me. Ford (or Saturn) doesn't need any bad publicity right now.

    Good luck.
  • zombozombo Member Posts: 89
    if the 2.4 liter dual overhead cam engine in the Ion making 170 horsepower at 6200 rpm is made by Toyota? It's very similar to the 2.4 liter dual overhead cam engine in the Scion TC which makes 160 horsepower and has similar torque figures to the engine in the Ion.And GM does have a partnership with Toyota.
  • kurtamaxxxguykurtamaxxxguy Member Posts: 1,798
    The Cobalt variant of the Delta body has much worse reliability than the ION does.
    First year cars always have a lot of problems, no matter who makes them.
  • bporter1bporter1 Member Posts: 229
    The 2.4L engine is a high output variant of the Ecotec engine. The Ecotec engine has many variants, and is both supercharged and turbocharged depending on what car it is used in.
  • corvettefan427corvettefan427 Member Posts: 92
    no its not, its a 2.4 liter ecotec GM engine.
  • alan34alan34 Member Posts: 11
    I plan to order an ION 5 speed Quad Coupe with air/ power pkg and sunroof. As the car is for my son and I to drive (I also have a Chevy Impala for my wife) I was wondering if the extra cost of the "3" is worth it as the car will primarily be in the city only. Does any one find the handling that much better with the "3" over the "2". Do the 16 inch tires really improve the car over the standard 15 inch ones.

    Thks!!!
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    I test drove an ION for comparison sake when I was shopping and the most compelling reason I found for choosing a 3 over a 2 was the seat fabric. The ION 3 cloth seats look a lot better than on the ION 2. If you're not wanting a "loaded" model with sunroof, spoiler, alloys, etc. the ION 2 is a better value, though.
  • gmeerschaertgmeerschaert Member Posts: 7
    I have a 2003 Ion 3 sedan. the 16" tires make a great eal of difference in handling and breaking.
  • legalseclegalsec Member Posts: 31
    Hey,

    Long time, no see. I'm sorry to hear that you don't have your 2003 ION anymore. We bought the 1st-year models in the same year.

    My 2003 silver ION2 passed the 50K-mile mark a couple hundred miles ago. We're out of warranty, but it hasn't acted up on us yet. Knock on wood. Just regular oil changes and a couple light bulbs. The upholstery could use some shampooing. The front mud guard is half torn off. Normal wear and tear. We still enjoy driving it everywhere because of the coaxial speakers and upgraded radio/CD/cass - we listen to our music loud.

    We see more IONs on the road now, but it's taken a really long time. Gone are the days of 0% financing and low, low base prices. I have to laugh when I see Edmunds (high) ratings/reviews for this car in 2006. There was a time when they couldn't say enough bad things about it, but that tune's completely changed. I'm happy to see that actually.

    Over and over, the fact is that the ION is no luxury car. It's not Superman. The seats could be better padded. But it is a solid and a good buy for the money. I recently read in Wired that GM's not-so-little dirty secret is they're reverse-engineering the competitors' cars. This assertion keys with the fact that I've been told by others that the ION's trunk battery is a German innovation and its automatic tranny is Japanese.

    Cheers and happy 2006!

    P.S. We finally donated our 1992 Saturn SL1 sedan to charity with 250K+ miles on it. (I'll try to attach a file image of the odometer here.) We're thinking about buying another ION, but this time it'll be a used one because I happen to appreciate the designers' original design, prefer the golfcart steering wheel and don't want OnStar.

    ">http://mysite.verizon.net/hcrussell05<img src="
  • kurtamaxxxguykurtamaxxxguy Member Posts: 1,798
    Apparently in 2006 quite a bit of the Cobalt technology made it over to the ION, as well as better seats and slightly better interior trim.

    The Japanese 5-speed trans was dropped in 2006 as it never worked all that well. 2006 got refined version of 4 speed the Cobalt (and old Caliver) had.

    There are lots of IONS where I live.
  • gmeerschaertgmeerschaert Member Posts: 7
    All car companies do competitive tear-downs of their competitors cars/trucks. They have for years. It's not a secret, dirty or otherwise. The battery in the trunk is an old idea for weight balance front to rear and space savings. The Germans did not invent the idea. I believe that car racers came up with it in the 50's.
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