I'm sorry to hear about your daughter. May Jesus Christ bless you and your family. I think you are going a little over board with your assessment of Daimlerchrysler seat belts. Most, if not all cars that I have road in or placed our kids in the back seats, the seat belts did not lock after you stopped pulling on them. (Referring to the three point seat belt system.) What those rear seat belts did do was, upon heavy breaking, they are suppose to tighten up. I don't believe there is a way to really test these seat belts in the rear without a real world situation. As far as the front seat belts are concerned, I believe the reason they lock after they are pulled, is because of the front air bag deployment, front windshield and dash board impact. I will test our seat belts in our 01 DGC and will report back. Just out of curiosity, was your daughter sitting in her set properly with both the lap and shoulder belt secure with all slack removed? The reason why I ask, is because I can't count how many times that I see kids looking out the side or rear window, at me from the back seat when they are suppose to be belted in. :P
Unless the newer Windstars are a vast improvement over the old ones I would eliminate them and take my chances in a new Kia over that. The older Windstars (early and mid 90s) were practically a running joke. I remember doing a bit of research for a purchase about 6 years ago and the Windstar stories were practically beyond belief.
Judging from some of the comments on the newer models, transmissions are still a problem in that vehicle for many and quality is inconsistent, sometimes good sometimes not. I think there are better options out there and that a lot will depend on the dealers in your area. A good dealer (or independent mechanic is even better) can make all the difference.
But I read they have plenty of problems with reliability. So does the Dodge Caravan. My parents owned one years ago and it ate them alive. My dad won't touch a DC with a ten foot pole. I also look at the Kia Sedona, 2005, like the Mazda and Dodge, always used. The Sedona drove nicely, seems interiorwise to be on a par with Honda/Toyota but I KNOW that reliability can't be the same after Kia's years of problems. I hear that Dodge and Kia have really improved but can't say for sure. "
My input:
2004 Town and Country. Bought 2/23/04. 25000 miles. Absolutely flawless operation. Just oil changes and tire rotations. Nothing else
"Don't consider a Dodge caravan, the shoulder straps on any rear belts WILL NOT CATCH! Test them for yourself jerk the front which catch perfectly then jerk the back."
They may not catch BY DESIGN.
As pointed out before, there are TWO types of locking mechanism for seatbelts:
The first type locks when the belt unreels too fast. This type CAN be tested by jerking the belt.
The second type locks when the vehicle rapidly decelerates. The lock is activated by a small pendulum in the mechanism which swings forward under rapid deceleration locking the seat belt. This type can NOT be tested by jerking the belt.
You are assuming that just because the front seats have the first type of locking mechanism, that the seats in the 2nd and 3rd row will also. THIS MAY NOT BE THE CASE.
What are the odds that EVERY seatbelt in the 2nd and 3rd rows is defective? Have you tested the belts on vans at the dealership? Has anyone else with DCX vans tested their belts in the 2nd and 3rd row by jerking on the belt?
Do NOT buy an ex-rental or fleet used minivan because they have been ABUSED before you buy one. You must be more careful buying a used DC minivan than an Odyssey or Sienna because most recent model used DC minivans were originally used as rental or fleet vehicles. Honda and Toyota do NOT sell many Odyssey or Sienna to rental or fleet agencies.
Do NOT buy an ex-rental or fleet used minivan because they have been ABUSED before you buy one.
Maybe. The best auto purchase I've ever done was to buy a year old Taurus that came from Hertz. Dirt cheap (for a 1 year old car), no problems, very satisfied. At least the rental/fleet vehicles have had some sort of periodic maintenance done to them.
I tried ours last night and all three rows you can pull the seat belt without it locking. All belts do retract that removes any slack after the belt is on. While I was driving, I made a quick stop and my seat belt locked. (Don't remember at what point it unlocked it's self.)
I guess if you don't mind they can be fine as ex-rentals have most of their maintenance done and rental minivans don't tend to be as abused as rental Neons and Cobalts. (from unscientific observations)
Yeah...I wouldn't worry as much if buying a rental minivan or similar type of family/ole folks type vehilce(i.e Buick LeSabre or Park Avenue) But, some people will rag out any rental. I helped a friend move one time, as he had rented a Hertz moving van...he drove it as if he only had a few hours left to live. :sick:
I think most people drive rentals the same as they drive their own car. Some of the folks on this forum are more interested in cars than average, but I'd guess that the average minivan rental is being used by a group of businessmen for shuttling between meetings, or by a family on a trip. In either case, I doubt if the driver is racing around in the rental minivan full of people. Now I wouldn't buy a Mustang that was previosly a rental! Plus I doubt if most owners maintain their vehicle's maintenance as good as a rental, with respect to checking fluids, air pressure, etc. Again, people on this forum may do that, but if someone is going to buy a car and sell it in two years, what makes you think he's going to treat it any better than someone renting it?
Yes her seatbelt was on properly I took it off of her myself after we wrecked she is 12 yrs old. Just go jerk-hard and fast just as a body slamming on it as in a wreck- the front shoulder straps on ANY Dodge caravan or Durango they catch perfectly- then jerk the rear you will see for yourself they don't catch. My daughter was hurt very bad and I just wanted to try to warn others befour other kids are hurt or killed needlessly. You have been warned thats all I can do.
ALL my 2005 Kia seatbelts catch -FIRST- jerk 5 star front 5 star side crash rating. Also got a 5 yr bumper to bumper with road side assistance and a 20 yr. 200,000 mile power train warranty also got a sweet price. Wanted a Honda but they cost much more. Kia's repair reptutation scared me but with that warranty who cares. Safety for my kids is what I was looking for this time. Didn't even check Dodge crash test rating before but we sure check now. Msn.com auto is very handy -Dodge is rated POOR. Kia and Honda 5 star crash ratings!
Well, my wife and I are selling our Civic tomorrow and with our other cash we still plan on buying a minivan with $15,000 or so. I'm starting to eliminate the idea of the MPV Mazda. There's no dealer in my town and only two garages that will work on them. One of them said, since the MPV won't be made in 2007, the parts will start to become scarce. I wonder how true that is. I don't want to get a Mazda and have to drive 50 miles to get it worked on. I hear that Mazda is starting to go belly up. Wife and I are down to the Dodge Caravan or Kia Sedona or else a Toyota with about 50,000 miles on it!!? Yeesh. I drove the Kia Sedona and really loved that sucker. Problem is, JD Power always rates Kia at the bottom of the heap. I thought the interior seemed practically Honda-like. Comfortable, good power, etc. But I'm gunshy about these korean cars. I'm worried about the Dodge, too. We're on a one-income so it's $15,000 CASH, no finance, done deal. We go up and down on this minivan thing, gettin' on my nerves! I'm so tired of coworkers saying, "just go buy an Odyssey, they're only about $26,000!" lol Might as well be a million! lol
1) Mazda is doing great, no where close to belly up, unlike Ford and GM!!
2) Do you have a Kia dealer nearby? You can't blindly accept what JD Powers/CR/MT/C&D and all the other so call "experts" say. If you did, everyone would just buy a Toyota and be done with it! The new Sedona looks great (2006?) and has plenty of features, plus with a 100k mile warranty...I'd put that on the top of my list.
3) How long you going to keep Minivan? If it's going to be 10 years, buy what you want - over the long term you'll be happier.
4) If you have 15K to put down on a new vehicles, you wouldn't be financing that much? If you bought a new Dodge for $20k with 0% financing for 60 months, your payment should be approx $90/month?
You have plenty of options!! I always say "go with your gut instinct"...and you'll be fine!!!
I heard a local dealer radio ad this morning for new-not used Dodge Caravan for just under $11K. Hard to believe they would discount to that low a price even for a stripped down short wheel base Caravan with the 4 cylinder engine.
First, I agree with dennisctc, Mazda is nowhere in the vicinity of going belly up. While the MPV is currently not on the American market, they sell a lot of passenger cars which get very good reviews. The MPV may return in the future (the new MPV, sold in Japan only right now, is a really fine looking vehicle, and especially a great looking minivan).
Second, in regard to the quality and durability of the Hyundai/Kia's, my research over the last year shows that everybody, and I mean everybody, who writes about cars or car manufacturers, says that the current generation of Hyundai/Kias bears no resemblance to the cars of the 90's and early 2000's. They all say that Hyundai/Kia has made tremendous strides in quality and durability over the past three to five years. Many note that Toyota is looking over its shoulder at a very fast approaching Hyundai/Kia.
Third, the reason all your co-workers are telling you to buy the Odyssey is because that's all they know and they haven't spent the time and done the research to know what's out there.
Fourth, I also agree with dennisctc that if you put down $15,000 on a minivan and finance the rest, almost all manufacturers offer very low interest rates for relatively short term loans (two to three years)--some of them from 0% to .9% or 1.9%. At that rate you could get a brand new minivan, with a full new car warranty, and still have very, very low payments for a fairly short time.
I will be buying a minivan in about nine months. The Hyundai/Kia vans are virtually identical, except for some cosmetic differences. Based on the quality and features and warranty available for the price, those two vans (Entourage and Sedona) pretty much complete my short list.
Go msn.com click autos on the left click used choose Dodge then choose caravan then choose 2001 then click safety, you will see overall poor. Was very poor for us you should see pics of my daughters face after our wreck only 35 mph and her shoulder strap didn't catch- she had concussion with blood from eye nose and mouth. Jerk the front straps hard and fast then jerk the rear ones you will see for yourself THEY DON'T catch. Front catches fine though
2005 Kia was about 16,500 plus tax titles and fee which ended up 18,500 out the door with 5 yr bumper to bumper road side assistance and 20 yr. 200,000 mile powertrain warranty, AND ALLLLL Kia's seatbelts catch, jerk them and see- unlike DODGE caravan (which could of killed my daughter at 35 mph) we just wrecked. Kia's have a 5 star front 5 star rear crash rating.
Again, sorry to hear about your troubles (and your daughter's, espcially) but PAY ATTENTION to the fact that all seatbelts don't work the same way; many use a pendulum-system that causes seatbelt locking only under extreme-braking forces...
While your van obviously had a problem, every car that doesn't lock upon tugging DOES NOT HAVE A PROBLEM. I think you'd do yourself a favor to acknowledge that, and at least think about it a little before continuing to post EVERYWHERE about the fatal flaw in the vans.
Do you really think that if there was a flaw in a million vans, there would be noone reporting it? Probably not; yours is an isolated incident.
IN a Dodge caravan explain to me why when you jerk the front they catch perfect and then jerk the rear see how they won't we paid the price and you don't have to. Why would you want to risk it knowing what happen to us?
Different mechanisms. In the rear, they are likely designed differently for carrying baby-seats (stretch them out all the way, then they lock as you let it back in), as opposed to the fronts, which aren't supposed to carry baby-seats.
You are very fired-up about the issue, which I can COMPLETELY understand, but I think you need to take your thoughts to the dealer, or regional rep for Chrysler, if not try to bring some media into it. If not, then you need to try to start getting over the issue, because it isn't necessarily a faulty design, yours was just faulty in one particular instance (like a lemon in a sea of other good cars).
Trust me, my family has been through two Chryslers, and they were horrible cars for us, and experienced problems that were documented by many others, so I'm surprising myself that I'm not jumping on the bandwagon in bad-mouthing Chrysler.
Here is the strongest evidence for Chrysler's case...
The government wouldn't allow a car with faulty seatbelts to be driven on the road. It would be a deadly mistake that would cause all kinds of legal issues for the NTHSA if they did. For this reason, I believe that your case was isolated, and that ALL Chrysler vans (or cars with this type of seatbelt) aren't safety hazards.
Lots of people have died because of Chryslers gen3 buckle they wouldn't recall. I did take my thoughts to many dealers why shopping for a new van they agree Rear DONT catch and say if we fix the rear straps would you be interested in buying and I say Yes I would I loved it until we wrecked but then I never heard from them. I know Im probally freaked out but I live for my kids they are my life I would die for them just so they could live another day and she was just hurt so needlessly. If you were a mom and it was your daughters face you would be screaming too. We had to wake her every 4 hrs just to make sure that she WOULD wake up. It took days for her eye to open but God is good and merciful she is recovering well. Now I just dont want other kids getting hurt or killed.
Regardless of how they were designed (inertia or pendelum style) it doesn't sound like yours were working properly. I'd recommend everyone test their belts every now and then just to be sure. No reason you can't hit the brakes hard and see how the seatbelts react.
I'm Canadian been reading a lot on this site, but first time posting message. Even so there is many posts regarding minivans, some of them few years old and I would really appreciate your feedback.
My current car is now too small for our kids, and yep, my wife almost convince me that we need a minivan. I am looking for a 7 passenger minivan with next essential options for me: ABS, second row separate chairs, third row split..
A few details:
* we do about 20 000K a year * looking to buy 2005/2006 minivan within next 1-2 months * been looking in a rowe at Chevy Uplander/Venture, Dodge Caravan, Kia Sedona, Mazda MPV; Toyota Sienna or Honda Odyssey are cool but still big price even for 1-2 yr old (at least in Canada).
So now we are in first round- test driving, we found Uplander drive not very impressive , Dodge is normal, Kia Sedona was the best what we drove, but her fuel consumption (almost 15/100 km in city and 10/100 km hwy) when gas price today in Ottawa 95 cents made us little bit scary. The -MPV, Sienna, Odyssey are in our list for test drive.
Honestly I am not really sold on any of them (I personally like sedan - impala, sonata,...), but practically I agree with my wife the one car should be small for her daily driving, and other one should be family one which will be driven by me. I also knew different story about Caravan's quality, GM problems, etc.
I found a lot of material for US customers, especially how quickly you guys can find information about incentives, holdbacks, consumer rebates, etc.,
If anyone can point me where I can find same information - incentives, holdbacks, consumer rebates for Canadian dealerships in Ottawa area would be GREAT!
"Go msn.com click autos on the left click used choose Dodge then choose caravan then choose 2001 then click safety, you will see overall poor. Was very poor for us you should see pics of my daughters face after our wreck only 35 mph and her shoulder strap didn't catch- she had concussion with blood from eye nose and mouth. Jerk the front straps hard and fast then jerk the rear ones you will see for yourself THEY DON'T catch. Front catches fine though "
OH, I thought that you were shopping for a new van. 2006 DC models have very good safety ratings
I am sorry that your daughter got hurt, and I understand your frustration in this incident, but it's been explained that this pull test doesn't necessarily prove anything. Do you really think that there are millions of vans out there that have rear shoulder belts that don't catch? You don't think this was a problem with just your car?
"Choose 2001...." How can you state that a 2005 Kia has a 5 star rating (as does the 2005, 2006 DC vans)and then compare it to your 2001? You have made a lot of posts, but have you visited the Kia forums? The Kia problems and solutions board makes for very good reading, if you want to talk safety. Good luck with your Kia, please read the Kia problem forums, to be forewarned.
Thanks for your input, everybody. I agree on so many points. I am NOT going to finance ANYTHING this time around. My wife and I live on a tight income since we decided to stay home with the baby with just me working. We work in a tight $300 window per month after the bills are paid. I cannot finance. It's going to be cash. We're looking heavily at the MPV. We talked to mechanics all over town and they just trash the Dodge Caravan and Kias. They say those two are their number one minivan "patients." Every mechanic recommended Honda, Toyota or Mazda. I have tried hard to gauge everything by looking at Consumer Reports, JD Power, Intellichoice, MSN Autos, word of mouth, talking to mechanics, and reading up for HOURS AND HOURS each day on these cars. Kia is still a stinker van. In fact, Warranty Direct, the company you see here on Edmunds.com, endorsed heavily by Edmunds, told us on the phone that the MPV is of the same quality as the Odyssey and Sienna. They said NO WAY to the Caravan or Kia Sedona. While I agree both Dodge and kia are better than the 90's, they're still stinkers. I'm probably going with a very slightly used MPV or else a Sienna with 40 or 50k miles.
Your post will most likely be moved to "minivan shopping" I would not even consider buying a 2005 Sedona. Terrible MPG, and spotty reliability. The 2006 is supposed to be much improved, but it is the 1st model year of the re-design, so I would be hesitant there also. GM and Ford also leave much to be desired. When mini vans are being discussed, basically you just hear about Honda, Toyota and DC vans. As you said there is a lot of research to do, don't listen to the "my van is better than yours" crowd.
A final note. How many 2006 Kias have those mechanics worked on? How many of those "stinker" Kias were from the late '90s and early 2000's?
I am not against the MPV. We actually looked seriously at them a year ago, but they didn't have several of the amenities we have gotten used to with our current vehicles. Also, the power was just adequate (Mazda seems to have that tendency with their larger vehicles, despite the "zoom-zoom" slogan).
Personally, I think Toyota is just way too proud of their cars. The Odysseys have been very good in the past. I have some issues with the current ones, though.
Out of all fairness (to Ford) have you considered buying a pre-owned Ford Freestar? You can get one with around 26,000 miles for around $14,000. Local Ford and Lincoln-Mercury dealers run big ads advertising slightly used "program" Freestars for sale for $14,988. I'm sure after some bargaining you could easily get out the door for around $15K.
But amongst the 3, I would probably lean towards the Freestar because the reliability isn't terribly bad (CR gives it an average) depreciation seems steep, and you can get it easily serviced, with parts readily available. (It IS an American car afterall)
It would be a tossup between the MPV and Freestar for me. I'd rule the Sedona out because it doesn't have the fold flat third row seat, (and because the Kia Long Haul Warranty is partly non transferable) but a friend of mine has a Sedona and it was pretty smooth around town.
I find it strange how nobody has mentioned the Freestar. While lameduck, I find it to be one of the better used minivan bargains.
Read in the Problems Forum for each brand to learn what current owners of new or almost new minivans are discussing. Many of the "problems" are trivial items that should be of no real concern. (Ignore posts by people who do NOT own the brand you are reading about).
Tammy, I wish your daughter a speedy recovery. If your intent is to go on record so that others know about your experience, your best bet is to file a complaint at the NHTSA's Office of Defects Investigation. Repeatedly posting about it here only means that the same people will repeatedly read about your experience, but you can report it to people that are in a position to do something about it at the link above.
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"We talked to mechanics all over town and they just trash the Dodge Caravan and Kias. They say those two are their number one minivan "patients."
Mechanics around town are probably "treating" very old patients. Anything relatively new is under warranty and wouldn't be going to them anyway. Both companies have greatly improved reliability. My T&C has been flawless in 2+ years and 25000 miles
"I know Im probally freaked out but I live for my kids they are my life I would die for them just so they could live another day and she was just hurt so needlessly."
Same here. I've got two girls myself (ages 4 and 6) and if I were in an accident in which it seemed as though there were a mechanical failure leading to the injury of my children I would be looking for the cause.
But I would want to know the REAL CAUSE. It has been pointed out, repeatedly, that you CAN'T TEST if the belts are working correctly or not by jerking on them. You are ASSUMING that the rear belts can be tested that way.
Do you REALLY want to find out the REAL cause of your daughter's injuries, or is it fine with you to make that kind of assumption and just go on down the road? If the 2nd and 3rd row belts in ALL '01 Dodge vans 'fail' the jerk-test, wouldn't it lead you to believe that these belts have a DIFFERENT type of locking mechanism and that there may well be another reason why your daughter was injured?
Or is it simply more convenient to look for the simple explanation, even if it may be wrong?
Given the fact that up until about 1999 when Honda finally came up with a worthy competitor, the Dodge and Chrysler minivans had almost all the market to themselves, so their are a lot more on the road. They still sell a lot more than any other brand. A lot on the road means any mechanic is going to see a lot more in their service bay independent of their overall reliability.
"Different mechanisms. In the rear, they are likely designed differently for carrying baby-seats (stretch them out all the way, then they lock as you let it back in), as opposed to the fronts, which aren't supposed to carry baby-seats."
This is indeed the case in some vehicles, especially since 1996 when a lockability requirement was added to the federal motor vehicles standards. This required rear seats in almost all passenger vehicles to have some method to securely lock a child restraint. It is possible to find various seatbelt systems in different seating positions of the same vehcile. We see this all the time at child seat events.
"If your intent is to go on record so that others know about your experience, your best bet is to file a complaint at the NHTSA's Office of Defects Investigation. Repeatedly posting about it here only means that the same people will repeatedly read about your experience, but you can report it to people that are in a position to do something about it at the link above."
Excellent suggestion. If enough similar complaints are made, an investigation will occur. This is often how recalls are initiated- if a defect was actually to blame. There are many different seatbelt systems in use today. It's not always easy to determine a working retractor from a defective one. Beyond a report to the NHTSA, consulting with a lawyer experienced in these issues would be another step if you believe a defect was involved.
Sadly, misuse and non-use of restraint systems are far, far more likely to be the cause of serious injury and death than defects in restraint systems. If a defect is involved in the case you mentioned, I hope it has already been reported and that it will quickly be identified and made public.
"Lots of people have died because of Chryslers gen3 buckle they wouldn't recall. I did take my thoughts to many dealers why shopping for a new van they agree Rear DONT catch and say if we fix the rear straps would you be interested in buying and I say Yes I would I loved it until we wrecked but then I never heard from them. I know Im probally freaked out but I live for my kids they are my life I would die for them just so they could live another day and she was just hurt so needlessly. If you were a mom and it was your daughters face you would be screaming too. We had to wake her every 4 hrs just to make sure that she WOULD wake up. It took days for her eye to open but God is good and merciful she is recovering well. Now I just dont want other kids getting hurt or killed."
Apologies that I missed some previous comments on this thread. It does happen that vehicles have different retractor systems, even from one seating position to the next in the same vehicle. I assure you that all modern vehicles have retractor systems that do restrain the shoulder belt securely in a crash. It is possible that yours may have had a defect or was broken. If that is the case, you should definitely report this to the NHTSA and consult a lawyer experienced in these matters. I hope the best for your daughter and anyone that was injured in your crash.
"Sadly, misuse and non-use of restraint systems are far, far more likely to be the cause of serious injury and death than defects in restraint systems. If a defect is involved in the case you mentioned, I hope it has already been reported and that it will quickly be identified and made public."
Comments
Judging from some of the comments on the newer models, transmissions are still a problem in that vehicle for many and quality is inconsistent, sometimes good sometimes not.
I think there are better options out there and that a lot will depend on the dealers in your area. A good dealer (or independent mechanic is even better) can make all the difference.
My input:
2004 Town and Country. Bought 2/23/04. 25000 miles. Absolutely flawless operation. Just oil changes and tire rotations. Nothing else
They may not catch BY DESIGN.
As pointed out before, there are TWO types of locking mechanism for seatbelts:
The first type locks when the belt unreels too fast. This type CAN be tested by jerking the belt.
The second type locks when the vehicle rapidly decelerates. The lock is activated by a small pendulum in the mechanism which swings forward under rapid deceleration locking the seat belt. This type can NOT be tested by jerking the belt.
You are assuming that just because the front seats have the first type of locking mechanism, that the seats in the 2nd and 3rd row will also. THIS MAY NOT BE THE CASE.
What are the odds that EVERY seatbelt in the 2nd and 3rd rows is defective? Have you tested the belts on vans at the dealership? Has anyone else with DCX vans tested their belts in the 2nd and 3rd row by jerking on the belt?
You must be more careful buying a used DC minivan than an Odyssey or Sienna because most recent model used DC minivans were originally used as rental or fleet vehicles.
Honda and Toyota do NOT sell many Odyssey or Sienna to rental or fleet agencies.
Maybe. The best auto purchase I've ever done was to buy a year old Taurus that came from Hertz. Dirt cheap (for a 1 year old car), no problems, very satisfied. At least the rental/fleet vehicles have had some sort of periodic maintenance done to them.
I understand they give you the service records when you buy them also, which is nice.
That made me laugh out loud.
And Honda likes to keep everything hushed up until the next model year vans arrive at dealerships.
1) Mazda is doing great, no where close to belly up, unlike Ford and GM!!
2) Do you have a Kia dealer nearby? You can't blindly accept what JD Powers/CR/MT/C&D and all the other so call "experts" say. If you did, everyone would just buy a Toyota and be done with it! The new Sedona looks great (2006?) and has plenty of features, plus with a 100k mile warranty...I'd put that on the top of my list.
3) How long you going to keep Minivan? If it's going to be 10 years, buy what you want - over the long term you'll be happier.
4) If you have 15K to put down on a new vehicles, you wouldn't be financing that much? If you bought a new Dodge for $20k with 0% financing for 60 months, your payment should be approx $90/month?
You have plenty of options!! I always say "go with your gut instinct"...and you'll be fine!!!
Second, in regard to the quality and durability of the Hyundai/Kia's, my research over the last year shows that everybody, and I mean everybody, who writes about cars or car manufacturers, says that the current generation of Hyundai/Kias bears no resemblance to the cars of the 90's and early 2000's. They all say that Hyundai/Kia has made tremendous strides in quality and durability over the past three to five years. Many note that Toyota is looking over its shoulder at a very fast approaching Hyundai/Kia.
Third, the reason all your co-workers are telling you to buy the Odyssey is because that's all they know and they haven't spent the time and done the research to know what's out there.
Fourth, I also agree with dennisctc that if you put down $15,000 on a minivan and finance the rest, almost all manufacturers offer very low interest rates for relatively short term loans (two to three years)--some of them from 0% to .9% or 1.9%. At that rate you could get a brand new minivan, with a full new car warranty, and still have very, very low payments for a fairly short time.
I will be buying a minivan in about nine months. The Hyundai/Kia vans are virtually identical, except for some cosmetic differences. Based on the quality and features and warranty available for the price, those two vans (Entourage and Sedona) pretty much complete my short list.
They are? By who?
I think you're mistaken...
While your van obviously had a problem, every car that doesn't lock upon tugging DOES NOT HAVE A PROBLEM. I think you'd do yourself a favor to acknowledge that, and at least think about it a little before continuing to post EVERYWHERE about the fatal flaw in the vans.
Do you really think that if there was a flaw in a million vans, there would be noone reporting it? Probably not; yours is an isolated incident.
You are very fired-up about the issue, which I can COMPLETELY understand, but I think you need to take your thoughts to the dealer, or regional rep for Chrysler, if not try to bring some media into it. If not, then you need to try to start getting over the issue, because it isn't necessarily a faulty design, yours was just faulty in one particular instance (like a lemon in a sea of other good cars).
Trust me, my family has been through two Chryslers, and they were horrible cars for us, and experienced problems that were documented by many others, so I'm surprising myself that I'm not jumping on the bandwagon in bad-mouthing Chrysler.
Here is the strongest evidence for Chrysler's case...
The government wouldn't allow a car with faulty seatbelts to be driven on the road. It would be a deadly mistake that would cause all kinds of legal issues for the NTHSA if they did. For this reason, I believe that your case was isolated, and that ALL Chrysler vans (or cars with this type of seatbelt) aren't safety hazards.
I'm Canadian been reading a lot on this site, but first time posting message. Even so there is many posts regarding minivans, some of them few years old and I would really appreciate your feedback.
My current car is now too small for our kids, and yep, my wife almost convince me that we need a minivan. I am looking for a 7 passenger minivan with next essential options for me: ABS, second row separate chairs, third row split..
A few details:
* we do about 20 000K a year
* looking to buy 2005/2006 minivan within next 1-2 months
* been looking in a rowe at Chevy Uplander/Venture, Dodge Caravan, Kia Sedona, Mazda MPV; Toyota Sienna or Honda Odyssey are cool but still big price even for 1-2 yr old (at least in Canada).
So now we are in first round- test driving, we found Uplander drive not very impressive , Dodge is normal, Kia Sedona was the best what we drove, but her fuel consumption (almost 15/100 km in city and 10/100 km hwy) when gas price today in Ottawa 95 cents made us little bit scary. The -MPV, Sienna, Odyssey are in our list for test drive.
Honestly I am not really sold on any of them (I personally like sedan - impala, sonata,...), but practically I agree with my wife the one car should be small for her daily driving, and other one should be family one which will be driven by me. I also knew different story about Caravan's quality, GM problems, etc.
I found a lot of material for US customers, especially how quickly you guys can find information about incentives, holdbacks, consumer rebates, etc.,
If anyone can point me where I can find same information - incentives, holdbacks, consumer rebates for Canadian dealerships in Ottawa area would be GREAT!
Any help/feedback would be highly appreciated,
Thanks
OH, I thought that you were shopping for a new van. 2006 DC models have very good safety ratings
I am sorry that your daughter got hurt, and I understand your frustration in this incident, but it's been explained that this pull test doesn't necessarily prove anything. Do you really think that there are millions of vans out there that have rear shoulder belts that don't catch? You don't think this was a problem with just your car?
I am not against the MPV. We actually looked seriously at them a year ago, but they didn't have several of the amenities we have gotten used to with our current vehicles. Also, the power was just adequate (Mazda seems to have that tendency with their larger vehicles, despite the "zoom-zoom" slogan).
Personally, I think Toyota is just way too proud of their cars. The Odysseys have been very good in the past. I have some issues with the current ones, though.
But amongst the 3, I would probably lean towards the Freestar because the reliability isn't terribly bad (CR gives it an average) depreciation seems steep, and you can get it easily serviced, with parts readily available. (It IS an American car afterall)
It would be a tossup between the MPV and Freestar for me. I'd rule the Sedona out because it doesn't have the fold flat third row seat, (and because the Kia Long Haul Warranty is partly non transferable) but a friend of mine has a Sedona and it was pretty smooth around town.
I find it strange how nobody has mentioned the Freestar. While lameduck, I find it to be one of the better used minivan bargains.
(Ignore posts by people who do NOT own the brand you are reading about).
I did that, and now I don't want to buy any of 'em. :confuse:
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Mechanics around town are probably "treating" very old patients. Anything relatively new is under warranty and wouldn't be going to them anyway. Both companies have greatly improved reliability. My T&C has been flawless in 2+ years and 25000 miles
Same here. I've got two girls myself (ages 4 and 6) and if I were in an accident in which it seemed as though there were a mechanical failure leading to the injury of my children I would be looking for the cause.
But I would want to know the REAL CAUSE. It has been pointed out, repeatedly, that you CAN'T TEST if the belts are working correctly or not by jerking on them. You are ASSUMING that the rear belts can be tested that way.
Do you REALLY want to find out the REAL cause of your daughter's injuries, or is it fine with you to make that kind of assumption and just go on down the road? If the 2nd and 3rd row belts in ALL '01 Dodge vans 'fail' the jerk-test, wouldn't it lead you to believe that these belts have a DIFFERENT type of locking mechanism and that there may well be another reason why your daughter was injured?
Or is it simply more convenient to look for the simple explanation, even if it may be wrong?
This is indeed the case in some vehicles, especially since 1996 when a lockability requirement was added to the federal motor vehicles standards. This required rear seats in almost all passenger vehicles to have some method to securely lock a child restraint. It is possible to find various seatbelt systems in different seating positions of the same vehcile. We see this all the time at child seat events.
Excellent suggestion. If enough similar complaints are made, an investigation will occur. This is often how recalls are initiated- if a defect was actually to blame. There are many different seatbelt systems in use today. It's not always easy to determine a working retractor from a defective one. Beyond a report to the NHTSA, consulting with a lawyer experienced in these issues would be another step if you believe a defect was involved.
Sadly, misuse and non-use of restraint systems are far, far more likely to be the cause of serious injury and death than defects in restraint systems. If a defect is involved in the case you mentioned, I hope it has already been reported and that it will quickly be identified and made public.
Apologies that I missed some previous comments on this thread. It does happen that vehicles have different retractor systems, even from one seating position to the next in the same vehicle. I assure you that all modern vehicles have retractor systems that do restrain the shoulder belt securely in a crash. It is possible that yours may have had a defect or was broken. If that is the case, you should definitely report this to the NHTSA and consult a lawyer experienced in these matters. I hope the best for your daughter and anyone that was injured in your crash.
I was hoping you would weigh in on this issue.