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Comments
There is no way I'd get a shorty minivan with a family that size. You definitely need the stretched one.
I'd keep looking.
Great deals should still be available on LWB Dodge vans, and they would have the more adequate 3.3L 180hp engine; still slow compared to the Nissan, but not dangerously so.
The plain, shorter Caravan would not have enough cargo space for a couple with 4 children and the 4 cylinder engine would be overworked.
see -
http://www.batfa.com/new-honda.html
It's a 2002 with 80k miles, so this isn't really a fair comparison, but I much prefer my 2007 Sienna. Road noise is much louder, she has a howling wind noise from the A-pillar, and the seats are flatter than my Sienna's, which are already too flat. The shifter blocks the radio volume knob when it's in Drive, also.
The steering has a lot more feel to it, and it handles well, though it doesn't ride as smoothly as my 'yota.
The cruise control buttons are not lit, and neither is the ignition key hole.
I'm sure the new Ody is better.
It is.
The steering is much tighter, the seats are more bolstered, the shifter is 200% easier to modulate and isn't as in the way, the steering wheel buttons are lit (which doesn't affect me; these being on the wheel are there so I don't have to move my hands or eyes - I'm used to how they are placed though, different from Toyota I know
Some differences still stand though, the ride in the Odyssey is the most carlike (meaning sportiest/firmest) but so is the driving experience. The noise level is higher than most want it to be, although it is marginally improved from the previous generation (we had a 2000 model, and my aunt has the "new" 2005 model).
You mention the volume knob; is hers an LX model (hubcaps, manual A/C)? If not, there are volume buttons opposite the Cruise Control buttons that should be redundant with the knob (volume up/down, and a button to change between tracks/presets).
I'm sure the wind noise in the A-pillar is just some loose door trim. I will tell her when she comes back to have that looked at during her next service.
Yes, hers is an LX, but she had the dealer swap out the stereo for a 6CD changer. To be honest I'm not sure if it's a Honda stereo or not, but it was installed by a Honda dealer. I had to reach around the shifter, as I don't think the LX has those audio buttons on the steering wheel (my Sienna LE does).
Again, not really fair, it's a 2002 so mine represents 5 years of progress.
No, the LX (about equivalent to a Sienna CE I guesss) doesn't have the buttons on the wheel for audio. The EX Odyssey did, starting in 1999, and steering-wheel buttons were backlit starting in 2005. What I like about the newer Honda wheel in the current Odyssey (and in my '06 Accord) is that the cruise and audio buttons have a different texture pattern on buttons with different functions.
You can see a smooth, horizontal, raised bar on the Accel/Resume and Decel/Set buttons. The Cancel button has little raised dots that feel more rough, and the master switch is smooth; you can do it by feel. The audio controls are similar. The wheel pictures is from an Accord, but the Odyssey wheel is identical in this regard.
My sister and I are thinking about adding a third vehicle sometime next year mostly for the specific purpose of being able to haul 'stuff.' We both have our cars, and while neither of us wants to drive a large vehicle all the time, as homeowners, we frequently find ourselves trying to stuff things into our smaller cars that they weren't meant to haul! My sister is turning in her leased hatchback next fall, and fully intends to buy a small sedan, leaving us with no good way to haul odd sized things.
We are considering either a mid sized SUV or a minivan. As a happily single, childless individual, I haven't really ever looked at a van, and I certainly haven't driven one, so I have no pre-conceptions about what's good, bad or indifferent. I know my sister in law keeps buying them even though their kids are older because as she puts it "they're just so darn useful!"
Biggest considerations (More or less in order of priority)
Dependability/ minimal repair costs
Nice to drive/ quiet/comfortable/ something fun to take on road trips
Ease of dealing with extra seats - not having to take extra seats in and out of the vehicle would be a big issue!
Insurance costs
Safety
Not big issues
Resale value (planning to keep it on the long term)
Lots of bells and whistles like power everything, dvd players, etc.
Millions of cupholders
Hope that gives all of you with much more experience enough info to provide me with some advice. I have no particular loyalty to a brand / place of origin, except that we will never, ever bring home a VW again! (BAD experience!)
thank you all in advance!
Karen
I guess the texture helps the owner familiar with the car, while the backlighting helps the unfamiliar driver.
The basics: The vans are all VERY WELL rated on safety, more fuel efficient than SUVs, and these days, will likely have better resale since they don't have the fuel-hog stigma of the SUV. Space efficiency is the key to the van, and they do it better than SUVs every time!
All that being said, some major features/difference to note in the three main competitors do exist.
Dodge Grand Caravan / Chrysler Town and Country
These two are the same basic vehicle branded as two different things. The Dodge is styled as a little more sporty, the Chrysler more luxurious. This is the newest model that debuted on the market.
Major Pros: It features a seating system you might find VERY useful, called Stow-n-Go. It allows all rear seating (middle buckets and third row) to be stowed underneath the floor, creating a flat load surface from tailgate to the front seats. Dodge and Chrysler also offer rebates and competitive pricing more often than the competition.
Major Cons: The engine options are a little lacking unless you get the most loaded-out model (the best engine comes only on the most expensive model). The amount of power coming out of the engines in the lower and mid-level models are way down on what the competition offers. Also, interior quality isn't as good as that of Honda or Toyota.
Honda Odyssey
This van is the most "carlike" of the van options. It has tight steering, a firmer ride, and overall, drives similar to a Honda Accord. The engine makes more power (and is noticeably better) than the lower-end offerings from Dodge and Chrysler, but lacks power relative to the Toyota, which is just plain fast!
Major Pros: The driving experience as a whole. The way the van drives will be the most comparable to a car, I believe, which could be a plus for you coming from a car. The rear bench is split, and folds flat into the floor like the Dodge's does.
Major Cons: The Odyssey has the firmest/bumpiest ride, and has the most interior noise. The middle-row of seats must be manually removed if you want only the front seats in place, with the rest for cargo. These seats are heavy (my aunt calls me to move them).
Toyota Sienna
The Toyota Sienna is easily the most luxurious van of the three, with a very smooth isolated ride, a quiet but VERY powerful and fuel efficient engine.
Major Pros: The ride is arguably the best of the three. The engine is the most powerful AND fuel efficient of the three. The rear bench split folds into the floor, like the Odyssey. The Sienna is available with some really high-tech options such as high-intensity headlamps and laser cruise control, which will slow down when you come up behind a car going slower than you, and speed back up once the slow car is out of the way.
Major Cons: The driving experience pales in comparison to the Honda (to me). The steering is light, not too precise. Its responses are not quick or car-like. The middle seats must also be manually removed, as in the Honda. Toyota's option packages can be maddening to decipher; sometimes you can build the can you want online, but will never find it in real-life. If you are looking for lower-end models (you mentioned not wanting bells and whistles) this may not be an issue.
I hope this gives a bit of an idea of the differences in these vans. If there are more questions, please just ask away!
If you look at it from a practical perspective, purely based on merit, a van will win every time.
You get more space for a lot less money, for starters. Nowadays you can get a good basic van for $22k, and for a little more you can get lots of extras.
The minivan segment is fairly mature, and what that means is you have lots of good choices. High tech multi-valve engines are both powerful and fuel efficient. Seats fold and disappear. Space and comfort are abundant. Options galore.
Let's look at the criteria that matter to you:
Dependability: probably no different than the SUV segment. SUVs offer AWD, but you can get a Sienna with AWD, so even in snow you should be able to depend on that van to get around.
Repair Costs: minor differences. Vans are perhaps a little bit simpler than large SUVs to work on, but I doubt it would break your bank. Vans cost a lot less to begin with, at least compared to most large crossovers/SUVs.
Stow-away seats: big plus for vans. Dodge and Toyota even offer you power folding options, though some SUVs do as well (Expedition for instance). Primarily the vans win in that all the seats are actually comfortable and inhabitable. Even large crossovers often have tiny 3rd row seats.
Insurance costs: probably lower for vans. I actually got insurance quotes for our Sienna and for a Subaru Tribeca 7 passenger model, and the van was $87 less every 6 months. Not a lot, but still cheaper. We liked the Tribeca but ultimately decided it was too small (we did buy a Subaru Forester for my wife).
Safety: check IIHS but I think you'll find most of these tend to score very well, just make sure you get things like side curtain air bags and stability control. Nowadays most vehicles in this class have both standard, but make sure.
To haul stuff you want SPACE! My Sienna offers 148 cubic feet worth. You can lay a 4'x8' sheet of plywood on the cargo floor, and still close the hatch! That's EIGHT FEET of length. The width is actually 52", so I would have 4 inches to spare.
A Chevy Tahoe, for comparison, which is 1" longer than my van, only holds 109 cubic feet, and you can forget putting the plywood inside. An Expedition is longer and holds even less.
Some crossovers come close - the Saturn Outlook is about the same length, but it still only carries 117 cubic feet of stuff. It costs a bunch more than a van, however.
From a rational, practical point of view, a van will give you a lot more space for a lot less money. They are more car-like and easier to drive, too. They also use a lot less fuel.
SUVs can typically tow more and have off road capabilities, but you didn't mention either of those in your post.
I guess the texture helps the owner familiar with the car, while the backlighting helps the unfamiliar driver.
Exactly. I thought it was pretty ingenious, myself. It's those kind of ideas you wonder "why didn't someone else think of that sooner?" :confuse:
I have no experience with the Honda or the Toyota vans, but my brother and family are on their third or fourth Dodge/Chrysler minivan, having piled almost 200,000 miles each (lots of cross country driving) on each of the previous ones with no major mechanical issues before they've bitten the dust. Actually, the last one was totalled on a Washington Beltway, but Lynne walked off with barely a scratch. So, reliability-wise and safety-wise I can't really have anything bad to say about Dodge/Chrysler. And the fold down seats would be a HUGE plus. I personally want no parts of taking seats in and out of a vehicle. My sister has a bad back, and therefore I know I'd have to do it myself, and there's no way I'd get into that situation.
On the other hand, my other sibling had two Ford Windstars that were awful. I mean, when they worked, they were wonderful to ride in, but both of them had major mechanical issues that no one could locate. But since I don't think Ford even makes a mini-van anymore, it's a moot point. (The mystery in my mind is why after one Windstar was a total :lemon: , did they replace with another Windstar.... things that make you say huh?) They now will buy nothing but Toyotas, so I'm sure they'd counsel me to buy a Sienna!
I will do some more research, and when I can, I'll just go out and test drive a few and come back with my impressions. In the meantime, I'd welcome any more input from anyone else who doesn't mind educating me.
Thank you both again!
Karen
They think Vans are uncool looking and want to go with a SUV. I am a realtor and sometimes I do have to use my vehicle, I don't mind the van.
I cannot afford the Odyssey this time. I am looking at a Quest 3.5 S but this is a serious downgrade from my leather, dvd, 2 auto doors. The price is good though close to $18000 out the door.
What else should I be looking at with a 3rd row of seats for $18000 out the door new??? Any suggestions? I do not like the 08 Pilot and it also is still too expensive.
The Chryslers also will give you a lot of value for the money.
That is a GREAT price (to me, anyway). If you'd go with a year-old Dodge or Chrysler you could get a lot more van for the money, I'm sure, since someone else would have taken the resale hit for you. Another question: how much would it be to purchase your Odyssey?
The other thing I drove that I never laid eyes on before is the brand new Dodge Journey. I was also quite favorably impressed with that vehicle, but that would be a 'replace current car with' and that is waaaayyyy off on the horizon, so I didn't look very seriously at it, at least not yet.
I liked the 7 seater Kia Rondo, it was cute, small, but would have been ok, but the price quoted to me was $18750 OTD the first go around (via telephone).
I then went to the Honda dealer, they wanted almost $30,000 OTD for just an EX cloth Odyssey, I just could not get excited about this, and the barrage back and forth between the sales guy and the finance guy. Ugh, it wore me out and depressed me. I finally left out in between the back and forth bull.
Next I went to the first Nissan dealer, they had a basic model of the Quest S. They did not want to deal and for that model would do $18,945.00 OTD.
Last dealer of the day was another Nissan dealer. Here I had gotten an email quote of $19165 OTD for a Quest S with drivers pkg (back-up sensor, dual sliding doors, power lift-hatch, info center with miles to empty, tire pressure, gas mileage, etc). The van was built in June 08 and I was the first to drive it. It was still wrapped up in plastic, inside and out! It has 8 miles that I put on it during my test drive.
Anyway, that was the deal I decided to take...
The window sticker on the van (after all the dealer add-ons, was $30095 MSRP. The deal turned out to be $17100 + TTT+ $599 dealer fee (= $19,165 OTD). I also received $600 in gas cards.
It was not a stressful transaction, the sales people were great, patient, knowledgeable and did not play the back and forth office cubicle game!
Question -- is there any substantial difference between a Chrysler Town and Country and a Dodge Caravan or are they the same vehicle in different wrappers?
There is little difference between the two. They offer the same powertrains, basic interior packaging, and driving experiences. If you've driven one, you should have a good idea of how the other one drives.
Fully optioned out, the T&C has just a couple of features not available on the GC. HID lights and a memory drivers seat. You also get, of course, a bit more up-level interior trim with wood-grain, etc. Personally, I like the 17" wheels much better on the GC than the chrome jobs on the T&C. The way I equipped them with 4.0L, trailer tow, Swivel-n-Go, DVD, etc., the T&C worked out to about $3000 more, not nearly worth it in my opinion for what it offered over and above the GC.
There is one other difference that's proven difficult to document. The GC 4.0L gets a "Euro Suspension", or at least it did starting partway through the model year. The dealer, as expected, seems to have no specifics on what this means. Stiffer or linear-rate vs. (I presume) progressive-rate springs? Bigger sway bar? Perhaps Dodge lifted VW's enhancements from the Routan for the 4.0L. Even chatting with Dodge's product specialists on their site was fruitless. According to Dodge/Chrysler enthusiast sites, the suspension is not available on the T&C but is "different" than the regular suspension on both models and may diminish the acknowledged ride/handling advantage of the Honda.
I was very nearly decided on an Odyssey before Dodge upped the incentives *and* the financing offers for August and vans in the configuration I wanted started showing up in inventory. Dealers seem to be big on the 3.8L. For a while, there were very few 4.0Ls to be found. I posted in the Odyssey prices paid for if you care to read how I came to my decision.
Thanks,
TheGraduate
However...
With respect to this buyer's particular situation, this may very well come into play. Without a doubt, the standard engine across the entire model line in both the Honda and the Toyota compares to the top of the line 4.0L in the GC/T&C. The 3.8L and 3.3L are way out-classed when compared to Honda's and Toyota's standard V6 offerings, even at their most basic trim levels.
If that matters to the buyer, this would would matter with repect to the differences between the GC and T&C because you can get the GC (without respect to my particular requirements) equipped with the 4.0L for far, far less money than you can the T&C. The T&C requires you to get the Limited and it's many standard features. A GC can be had with the 28M package (incl. 4.0L) with fewer options and a price thousands less than a T&C Limited.
If it were me, because the standard powerplant in the Toyota and Honda are so superior to the 3.3L and 3.8L in the GC/T&C, I'd be leaning towards them (or the Hyundai if I wanted to save money) if I weren't going to buck up for the 4.0L in the GC/T&C. If you are going to compare apples to apples with the 4.0L in the GC/T&C to the other manufacturers offerings then there are some differences between the GC and T&C, due to the trim-levels and option packaging.
If that matters to the buyer, this would would matter with repect to the differences between the GC and T&C because you can get the GC (without respect to my particular requirements) equipped with the 4.0L for far, far less money than you can the T&C. The T&C requires you to get the Limited and it's many standard features. A GC can be had with the 28M package (incl. 4.0L) with fewer options and a price thousands less than a T&C Limited.
That's exactly the info I was interested in hearing. Thank you!
At some point, probably not immediatley, I fully intend to go and look at the Honda, Toyota and Mazda vans, and "vanlets." I will probably also look at the Chevy van, though I hear very little about it good or bad. I don't see a lot of them, which says to me they aren't too attractive for some reason.
Thanks again for all of your continuing insights and helpful info!
Karen
Mazda makes a "Vanlet" as you aptly named it
Please, no thanks are needed. I like simple "car talk" and this gives me an outlet for it!
Dodge Grand Caravan - Same basic vehicle as the T&C. In more basic 3.3L and 3.8L trim, it's not really competitive with basic Honda or Toyota trim levels. They offer more refinement and, statistically speaking, more reliability and resale. In 4.0L trim the GC is competitive (at least on the refinement and power parts) and available for $1,000s less than the T&C. Availability of the 4.0L on lots was much better than the T&C as well.
Chrysler Town & Country - See above for the most part. Want more bling than the GC and don't mind paying for it? Go this route. Not that you want the tow package but there wasn't a T&C with tow package to be had within 75 miles when I was looking. Dealers seem to be loaded up on the "Signature" edition (special package) with the 3.8L and carry very little else.
Honda Odyssey - If you have reservations about domestic or can't find the 4.0L GC at a reasonable price, the Odyssey, in my opinion, is the best buy on the market right now. They're pretty easy to get at invoice minus $2500 in dealer cash even if you don't like/want to bargain. With Honda's relatively flat trim-level and optioning model, it's very easy to find the trim you want in the color your want, even in 08s at this point. Three local dealers had exactly what we wanted. Supposedly the best-driving but I think it felt larger and only marginally better than the GC.
Toyota Sienna - Like thegraduate mentioned, finding one like you want with CE, LE, XLE and Limited, 7- and 8- passenger seating, AWD and FWD is next to nearly impossible without some time investment or letting a dealer "locate" one, which usually results in paying a bit more somewhere. At least with Dodge and Chrysler, the window stickers are available online. Only $1800 in cash so the deals aren't as good as on the Honda. They're supposedly quieter and not as harsh but I didn't notice it that much. Both my Mini Cooper S and Dodge Ram have aftermarket exhausts and the Mini has an cowl-inducted intake and over-driven supercharger (lots and lots of intake roar) as well so... Every minivan is quieter than they are.
Chevrolet Uplander - GM seems to offer this just so they have a minivan to put in the Chevy showrooms. Not competitive by any means. You may be able to get a screaming deal on one, like the Quest as both have to be either EOL or near-EOL. The Saturn Relay (Uplander twin) has already been cancelled. The Uplander is missing many features considered to be essential in the market. It just misses the mark by nearly every measure. I think if you read much about this van, it's probably bad. The only good part may be the price.
Nissan Quest - I'm not sure this is even coming back for 09? The platform is due for replacement but I think Nissan may have written off this market. Nissan showed some concepts that could be a new Quest but very little has been heard about a potential replacement. They may have abandonded the market like Ford and GM, almost. It's a bit long in the tooth like the Uplander but my wife liked it and I said if we could steal one, it would be a consideration. Dealers have very, very few of them right now it seems. There were none at my two local dealers.
Hyundai Entourage - I wouldn't buy one but... They've come a long, long way in ten years and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend one to somebody wanting lots of content for minimum money with any brand handups whatsoever. I'm not brand specific but I've still got a hang-up, probably unjustified, about Hyundais. Worth a look especially if you're looking at the lower end of the segment.
Kia - I still wouldn't go there, I don't think. I didn't look at them at all.
Hope this helps. Sorry I'm so long-winded. Might as well do the brain-dump while this is all fresh on my mind, right?
Chevy's van is going of production. You may find some leftovers, but beware: resale will likely be dismal. They replaced the Uplander with the Traverse crossover. It does have good towing capability, but costs more and has less space than most vans. The Uplander lacked 2nd row windows that open, no magic 3rd row folding seats, no side curtain air bags. It would be a good van 12 years ago, but not today.
Mazda5 is nice and indeed fun to drive. They just gave it a better transmission that improved the EPA mileage a lot, but it's much smaller than most vans are. Same for the Rondo, which is well price but IMHO doesn't drive as well as the 5.
The Dodge Journey falls inbetween in terms of size, bigger than the 5/Rondo but still a lot smaller than most minivans. Haven't driven one.
The Ody leather seats look more comfortable with better quality leather than either the T&C or Sienna. I also prefer the Ody lack of fake wood. :shades:
I had my cousin's Ody for a couple of weeks, and I sweat my Sienna's seats are much more comfortable.
It's a 2002, I think, so one generation back, but I like my van a lot more.
Sadly I believed the service rep right away because that happened to my 1998 Forester, and to a lesser extent to our 2002 Legacy as well.
$740 worth of damage. Wires were chewed up, and the knock sensors went haywire, probably from short circuits.
The tech got a photo he'll show me tomorrow.
Unreal. Chipmunks!
In back-to-back comparisons versus the Odyssey when we were test driving vans we found the seats in both fairly comfortable, but the Sienna had the advantages of being quieter and of being able to comfortably fit 8 adults in 8 passenger trim compared to the mother-in-law seat in the Odyssey. A week after we got the van I took a group of 7 co-workers to lunch in the van and favorably impressed all with the comfort even in the third row.
Apparently my back side is not too wide because I found the 8th seat (+1) in the Odyssey quite comfortable. I prefer ALL seats in the Odyssey to those in the Sienna.
What do you al recommend?
All in all, I'd look at 7 passenger models; put the 12 year old and the 4 month old in the second row (the 4mo in the baby seat of course) and let the 8 year old have the third row assuming he can buckle in his booster well. Legroom is sufficient in the third row, even for me at 6'5", assuming the 2nd row seat is adjusted slightly forward. It should be fine for the 12 year old as well.
Hope this helps!