CR-V vs Escape

phillyguy2

Do you think CR is the "know it all guru"? I am not knocking Honda as they are one of the most consistant quality car cos. in the world. And Ford is one of the most INconsistant. But if you check with OWNER satisfaction, you will find that OWNERS love their Suzukis.
As far as Escape goes, I would never gamble my hard earned $$$ on a Ford product. My odds at the casinos are about the same for winning.

tomsr

I would like to believe that Consumers Report
is unbiased but I wonder where they get their money.Like politicians opinions are based on who is contributing to them so may CR.I am a Honda
fan but I would switch sides if Ford quality was
equal.I am a hobby mechanic so I look underneath
things.Get an Escape and a CRV up on a lift and compare them.The CRV fit and finish is far superior.So if what is visible is obvious what
about the unseen?Sure it doesn't have 200 hp but
it has no problem moving with the traffic flow.
I don't want to race someone doing 80 mph in a 50 zone.I say let them get away from me so I am not around when they crash.

varmint

Phillyguy2 - As a general rule I ignore CR reviews. Their point of view is too far into the mommy-mobile zone for me. However, they are the only consistent source of information on reliability data. So I use them for data, not their reviews.

Owner satisfaction is another thing entirely and doesn't have anything to do with reliability. Many folks obviously love their Fords, despite the problems they may have fixed.

phillyguy3

If you go to the Suzuki board, you will find practically NO repair issues! AND no recalls,even 1st year XL7's. Honda built their image on cheap reliable cars and it took a long time to establish and they earned their reputation. Although Ford SELLS a lot of Escapes, their reputation is based more on marketing. If they all started out on equal footing, Honda & Suzuki would rate at top(along with Toyota) and Ford would languish with Chrysler at bottom.
I am factoring in quality,reliability and value.

scape2

youself, why does Ford continue to sell so many cars/trucks/SUV's if they are so doggone terrible?
Why are 5 out of the 10 best sellers Fords? I would think by now the public would have caught on and Ford would have been out of business if every Ford broke down or had these severe problems.
There is more to the Escape than a 200HP engine, there is also 200ft/lbs of torque and the ability to tow 3500 lbs, something a CRV owner can only dream of doing.. Try loading your CRV down with 4 adults, full cargo.. then you'll wish you had a V6.. Try pulling onto a freeway, going up a 7% grade. You can discount the V6 all you wish in your mind.. the V6 is superior. You get maybe 3MPG better.. Thats your only advantage. There is also a very capable fully independant suspension, a braking system that ranks as one of the best in its class and much, much more.
"Put a Honda up on a lift side by side with an Escape" Did that. I have a friend who is a manager at a Honda dealership... The Ford Escapes Frame is much more stout, thicker metals under here.. More skidplates too... I fully welcome any CRV owner to do this.. it may make you wish you didn't...

phillyguy2

If Honda decided to flood the market with CR-v's the way Ford does, then dealers would be forced to deep discount the way Ford does and CR-V's would wipe away Escapes in sales. If Ford didn't have fleet sales and end of quarter/year clearances,how many Ford models would be in top 10? If sales were the only barometer of quality, then we consumers would be in a sad dilemma of choosing the best of the worst. As i said B4, marketing is what keeps Ford & GM sales up there. Look at Edmonds posts. Did you notice how many posts are devoted just to Escape, Hyundai,Liberty problems? I realize that there are no guarrantees,but my odds are better in the Casinos than risking 25K on an Escape.

baggs32

The Escape currently has no discounts or incentives available. Neither does the CR-V. Honda, Toyota, and Nissan do not have the facilities to build as many vehicles as Ford, GM and DaimlerChrysler do. That's why they usually cost more, and have long waiting lists. It's not because they are in such great demand. The only way they could flood the market is if they closed a couple of lawn mower or weed trimmer plants and converted them to CR-V plants. Hey that might work! The CR-V uses the same engine as some of their lawn mowers anyway.

carguy62

The Escape is now offering a $1000 cash rebate. At least in the Chicago area. They are getting beat by Honda and they have to do something. YTD sales: CR-V 25331, Escape: 18212.

And for everyone that says the CR-V can't do this or do that, have you driven one? My guess is no, as I don't see too many Ford owners visiting a Honda dealer. And what if someone doesn't need to tow 3500 lbs? or is that not acceptable?

baggs32

No discounts on either one according to Edmunds.com. I have not heard or read of any locally either. I have driven a 2001 and a 2002 CR-V. My wife's sister owns a 2001 CR-V SE (auto trans) and I had the opportunity to drive it on our very hilly Pennsylvania highways, full of cargo (roof carrier too) and four adults. No thanks. My old ZX2 handled the hills better in fifth gear at a lower RPM and I'm not kidding either. We test drove a 2002 EX (auto trans) on another highway, and it was a little better (only three people inside, no cargo), but not much. The interior and sideways swinging rear door (blocks the curb on the right/unloading side forcing you to walk around) are what scared us away from that one. As for your sales figures, did you add the Tribute in with the Escape sales? They are built on the same assembly line, and should be combined. We had a really hard time finding an Escape back in January because the factory was barely keeping up with the sales due to the fact that they had to build Tributes too. Where did you find the sales figures? I did a quick Yahoo search, and couldn't find any sites with the numbers.

baggs32

The Edmunds.com incentive/discount system runs off of the zip code that you provide, so I guess it just depends on where you live if you use that. So I should just say no discounts/incentives are offered in Pittsburgh at this time. They don't have any listed for zip 60603 (Chicago) either.

stever

Incentive programs move fast and are kept well under wraps by the manufacturers for competitive reasons. So be sure and double-check with the dealer just in case we don't have the absolute latest.

That said, we seem to be a lot more up to date than a year or so ago.

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carguy62

Since you insist on including the Tribute (?). It has sold 5553 units YTD. I posted Escape sales vs. CR-V sales. That's what should be looked at.

Sorry you can't find the rebate. They were blasting it all over the TV yesterday.

Wow, if the rear gate is what scared you away from the CR-V that doesn't seem too bad. That seems like something you'd be able to work around (do you constantly parallel park?)

You know what scared me away from the Tribape? The fact that it is a Ford product besieged by problems since day one. Awkward tailgates can be compensated for, poor quality can't. But I love seeing Ford Jr. talk about his company "inventing" SUVs. Too bad they can't build them properly. My opinion of course.

varmint

We can't really cover six issues at once.

Scape2 has some valid points about the Escape. It can tow significantly more than a CR-V. Those folks who buy an SUV for towing purposes can do a lot better than buying the Honda. So this is a plus for the Escape.

That said, the number of people who buy mini-utes to tow something larger than a bass boat or small utility trailer is pretty insignificant. That may be the only demographic smaller than the number of people who take their vehicles off-roading.

As for loading up the vehicle then driving it up hills, onto freeways, etc... The CR-V has proven to be very capable in this regard. In the only direct comparison test we have so far, the author stated that the CR-V felt like a V6 when merging into traffic. Yes, you will feel a difference when you add weight to the car. That's the way it is with just about any car. My father's JGC is the same way and it has a V8.

There is a level of competence that is considered good enough. Sure, for some people it may be a benefit to be able to drive it like a sports car even when fully loaded. But most people don't need that. As long as the vehicle doesn't get bogged down trying to reach the summit, it's good. The CR-V is good enough.

Most of this hill climbing criticism is based on left-over impressions from the last generation CR-V. The new engine makes more torque at 2,000 rpms as the old one did at it's peak. Thanks to it's lighter weight and aggressive gearing, it doesn't need 200 lb-ft to get it moving. That's been proven with the faster 0-60 times.

Scape2 - My understanding from reading many internet boards and a number of publications is that you will be lucky to get the EPA numbers for the Escape. There are a number of folks who get lower than the 22-26 range for the CR-V, but there are also an equal number getting 30 mpg on the highway. Meanwhile, many Escape owners are getting somewhere between 16-22 mpg out of theirs. I recall reading posts from someone who was getting 10mpg from their Ford. Maybe it was because of the infamous fuel leak? I dunno.

Baggs32 - I seem to recall Ford offering special incentives on financing. At first it didn't include the Escape, but I thought that they eventually added it to the list.

For sales, read back a few posts and you'll find a link to the site we typically use for sales comparisons. The CR-V has been outselling the Escape and Liberty since December. The CR-V has outsold both the Escape and Tribute in a few recent months, but I think they managed a small lead (100 +/- units)in this past month's figures. Given that Ford and Mazda have about 12 times as many retail outlets as Honda, this shouldn't be a surprize.

baggs32

OK, I've looked all over the web, and I cannot find a single incentive, rebate, discount, or whatever you want to call it, for either of them anywhere. MSN's Carpoint has none, Ford's site has none, car-prices-plus.net has none, etc. I think I did see that they were offering 8.9% for both 48 and 60 months a little while back, but that's not really a bargain if you ask me. I wish they did have some kind of incentive when we bought ours. Thank God for the X plan and credit union interest rates. Anyway, enough of that, it's pointless and I'm tired of typing about it. varmint, this competence level you speak of, I wholeheartedly disagree that the CR-V is "good enough". When the CR-V is loaded up with people and cargo while trying to climb a highway hill with the cruise set, and an 18 wheeler is approaching your rear faster than you can say "I should have went for the V6". You'll know what we mean.

carguy62

I know how to disengage the cruise, I know how to downshift if necessary. A semi coming up in the rear view mirror of my CR-V is of no concern to me, unless of course he has been driving for 20 straight hours, is on drugs, etc.

I never will say I should have went for a V6. The engine in the CR-V is better than many V6s out there anyway. The 2.4L in the CR-V is nothing less than exceptional, but then again what would you expect from one of the world's premier engine companies.

baggs32

I do agree that they make great engines. The VTEC in our Civic is as smooth and precise as they get in that class. The problem I have is that in order to get them moving with any hint of authority you have to wind the tach into next week and sometimes beyond (S2000). Personally, I like to have some of the power available within normal operating speeds too. The Duratec may not come to dinner with a bow tie on, but it has proven very reliable over the years, and no one ever complains about it's lack of oomph.

varmint

Baggs32 - I think you're late to the party on this one. We've already discussed the 2.4L in the CR-V. It makes 90% of peak torque from 2250rpms all the way through 5500rpms. That's pretty much the entire driving range. As mentioned above, the 2.4L engine makes more torque below 2000 rpms than the old engine did at it's peak over 4,000 rpms. I think your impressions are probably based on the older version which did require revs to get it moving.

In other words, this engine more comparable with the MDX than the S2000.

carguy62

You say it better than I do. Maybe it's because I came from something with 126 hp (but the vehicle was also 800 lbs. lighter) but my CR-V moves, and I'm not kidding. I haven't really even opened it up but I've left some people in the dust. I think you are right, people are basing their judgement on the engine from the first generation. The 2.4L is a nice engine. I can't wait to see what it does in the Accord.

baggs32

Actually my impressions come from owning a Honda with a 4 cylinder engine and a manual transmission. Plus I read a lot of car mags that drill the high rev Honda notion into your head over and over again. I did re-read the 2002 CR-V EX manual trans road test in Car and Driver, and you guys are right, the 2002 does seem to have adeqate power now. I guess I just didn't notice it when I drove it right after test driving a Tribute on the same roads. It just felt kind of weak to me. Maybe it was the auto trans that did it. I'm not looking to race these things either, that's about the last thing you should ever think of doing with one. We bought the Escape strictly for hauling merchandise from Home Depot and Ikea (new house), and the once a year vacation to a beach somewhere. It definately gets high marks for hauling, and local highway travel has been uneventful thus far.

carguy62

I own some HD stock (not enough unfortunately). My office looks out at an Ikea. I've only been there a couple of times (I find it a little overwhelming) but I saw lots of CR-Vs there being loaded up to the hilt. I bet there were a bunch of Escapes as well ;-) . I was amazed at how much I could cram in my Accord H/B, with an SUV I could probably furnish a house in one trip.

baggs32: from a Honda to a Ford, that's usually not how it works ;-).

baggs32

I hear you there. We just got sick of having to take things out of their boxes to squash them into one of the little cars. The Honda is actually my wife's car and is still resides in our garage. The Escape was her choice even though it replaced my ZX2 which I loved. I thought for sure she was going to make me drive a CR-V or a RAV4, but she absolutely hated both of them when she saw them up close even though she really liked the old gen CR-V. That Civic will be traded in for a 2004 Mustang by the way. I'm not suffering in any way from her decision. It's had more recalls and problems than any Ford I or my family has ever owned. That's how you go from Honda to Ford in a nutshell. I'd buy another Honda though. I expect to have issues with any vehicle no matter what it is.

scape2

incentives whatsoever for the Escape/Trib. I don't know where this person heard this?? I too checked all over the net, and went to several Chicago area Ford dealerships on the net.. and also typed in zip codes around the Chicago area..
Many of the sales for the CRV I would bet are people trading in their old ones for the new ones. The 2.4 is new this year folks. How can it already be determined reliable???
The V6 in the Escape is far superior to the 2.4 in the CRV. It will out tow, pull, haul, you name it. These are very important qualities in an automobile most people want. As far as MPG.. I am averaging about 21MPG in my v6 Escape. On a 250mile Hwy trip I made 23.5MPG. I have stepbars, rock guard, bike racks so I assume the drag doesn't help me much. The tailgate does matter. Wait until the first time you want to unload your vehicle and HAVE to parallel park.
The fact is the V6 is just plain more powerful than the 2.4. 200HP/200ft/lbs of torque vs 160HP/160ft/lbs of torque, you cannot argue with numbers and facts.. The peak torque you will ever make is 160ft/lbs no more.. The Escape has 40 more ft/lbs to give you..

tomsr

Before I bought the CRV I rented an Escape for a day and went for a drive in the mountains.Rounding curves at 30-40 mph it felt
lethargic till I turned off overdrive but the rough ride was the pits.I was going to forgive
it this till I sat in the seat awhile and got a backache.The interior felt more cramped and
fit and finish were not what I expect for $23k.
I guess the clencher was the experience with my previous Explorer, came trade in time,it went from $26k to $12k in 3 years and 36k miles.I agree if you are towing something or passing
slow moving vehicles you need power.The Escape
does feel exciting when it is floored.Personally
a crowded road is not the place to look for excitement.

carguy62

I saw what I saw (a TV commercial advertising $1000 back) but if no one can corroborate it, it doesn't really matter. I hope you don't think I made it up.

I don't think you'll get too much argument that the Escape's V6 with 200 hp is more powerful than the CR-V's 2.4L with 160 hp. Whether someone "needs" the V6, now that is debatable.

I didn't (won't be towing, rarely will have a full load). So that left a choice between the Escape/Tribute with their 4 cyl. or the CR-V. IMO, there was no contest. The CR-V blew away the Escape with the 4 cyl.

So if someone wants a V6 I think the choice is pretty obvious, if they don't well I think it's obvious as well.

And regarding the tailgate, so insignificant I didn't even give it a second thought. But as I said, an inconvenient design can be worked around, poor quality can't.

varmint

I think Carguy2 said it well. No one is arguing that the CR-V is more powerful than the Escape. It's just that the CR-V's 2.4 is good enough for the job and most people don't really need the V6.

If you're concerned that many CR-V sales are from former CR-V owners, then how many Escape buyers are out there because they traded in their Explorer?

As for reliability, no one is claiming that the 2.4 is reliable. However, we know that (overall) the Escape stinks. It's rated way below the industry average. Given the CR-V's excellent track record, there's no reason to suspect that it will score lower than average. Basically, if I have to place bets before the race, I'll go with the horse that wins a few.

Scape2 - My worst tank of gas is close to your best. With your best at 23mpg and CR-V drivers getting 28-30mpg, I think you can see the why we consider the difference significant. Obviously people don't get that for an average, but it gives you an idea of what the annecdotal evidence suggests.

baggs32

I can get the problems fixed, but I can't get a different back door. Nor can I ask them to move the moonroof switch to a place where I can use it and the side window switches at the same time (when parked of course). The lack of anything in between the front seats just leaves open the possibility that something may roll under the brake pedal rendering it useless for a period of time. I'll stop there. As I've said before, I bought what I liked best, and I don't regret it at all. I don't want to have to work around things that I don't like. I want to have things the way I like them because I'm not going to squeeze every last ounce of life out of each and every vehicle I own (6 years at the most). Therefore, just because a CR-V MIGHT last a year longer than an Escape, my decision remains unchanged.

carguy62

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying about using the window and moonroof switches at the same time. Because one is on the door and one is on the dash? That's all I can think of. People complained when the window switches from the 1st gen CR-V were on the dash (very un-Honda like), so you can't please everyone. Again, if it were me, that is a minor inconvenience (I usually forget I have the moonroof anyway, but I'm getting better). Now if the switches were in the center console, that I'd have a problem with. But one automaker puts them there so apparently many people don't mind it.

Whatever works for you (and me).

baggs32

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember it the moonroof switch is on the dash to the left of the steering column, and the window switches are now on the driver's door handle/armrest. Our Civic has the same setup and it has always annoyed the heck out of us, because you have to use your left hand to operate them both. For example, when you pull into the garage, or a parking space, etc., you have to close each one separately thus wasting a valuable 30 seconds of your life (just like pennies, they add up). Most other vehicles have the moonroof switch on the moonroof, and the window switches on the door handle/armrest allowing the driver to close both at the same time. This is a little nitpicky, but when you're used to one way, the other just doesn't seem logical or comfortable.

carguy62

The driver's window is now auto up, so that saves a few seconds ;-) . The only sunroof (moonroof, whatever) I had was in an old Cavalier. It was a pop-up so no switch, and it leaked. So I don't know any better.

baggs32

carguy62,
Since you're new to the moonroof, here's a little trick for ya. Crack one or both of the rear windows a little when you open the roof to let more air in. You've probably noticed that very little air comes in when the other windows are up and the roof is open. This is nice to do when it's a little too cool outside to open all of the windows at the same time, if you know what I mean. It keeps the wife's hair from getting tossed too!

carguy62

I will give it a try. Unfortunately the weather hasn't been cooperating. Spring has been worse than Winter (it's flurrying outside as I type).

varmint

Carguy - That wasn't a Z24 was it? I had an 86 Cavalier Z24 with the pop up sunroof and window switches on the center console. The car was torquey enough with the 2.8L V6, but it died the usual Chevy death; head gasket issues.

carguy62

No it was an '85 Cavalier Type 10 coupe, 4 cyl, dark grey. My first new car purchase after college. I thought it was such a cool car, when I think back I wonder what I was thinking. My dad had been a GM guy (although he had bought an Escort a few years earlier) so I figured I'd be a good American and buy domestic. No power anything if I remember. I got rear ended when it was about a year old, sold it about three years later. What I remember from that was the guy came over and it was raining and he didn't want to drive it so all he did was start it in my garage. I don't see too many of those models around today, living in the rust belt and all.

scape2

4cyl engines of these two vehicles, hands down I will agree, and would be stupid not too, the CRV wins. The majority of Escapes sold and built have the V6. The 2.0 just doesn't cut the cake in the Escape. However, for 2003/4 model Escape a 2.3 will be available. I can't quite pin the HP/Torque ratings down. I have read as little as 140HP to has high as 150HP.
I have driven both of these vehicles. I just don't see this huge interior quality gap you speak of? Plastics look equal, feel equal to me. Seat coverings, carpets ect all feel and look the same to me.
Varmit, your MPG ratings are a bit of a stretch. My neighbor has a 2000 CRV AWD and she says her MPG is about 25 on average.

daveghh

Just so you know... the 2.4L in the new CRV is not a brand new engine. It is and has been in the Acura RSX....

Also, the amount of power an engine can generate doesn't mean it will be faster or accelerate quicker. It depends on the size of the tires, aerodynamics of the vehicle, and most importantly the gear ratio. Some people laugh when I say aerodynamics, but don't. Stick your hand out your window going 60 mph... Alot of drag, huh?

If you want a real accurate comparison you should also compare the power versus the RPM of each of the vehicle.

varmint

Scape2 - I think you misread my post. You gave us your best MPG figure and I reponded with the best figures (on average) from CR-Vers. I wasn't posting the overall average.

My personal average is 25.5 mpg. My personal best is 30 mpg. The lowest tank was around 21 (I've forgotten the exact number). That low number was after spending several hours and 3/4 of a tank off-roading.

Daveghh - Actually, the 2.4L is brand new (for the CR-V). Though it is very similar to the 2.0 used on the RSX (based on the same block), it is actually closer in design to the 2.0 used in the Honda Stream (a small, small minivan). The Stream is the first place where we saw the i-VTEC technology and that engine is used in both European and JDM CR-Vs.

varmint

Drag is significant. I think it was the EPA who published a study on the subject. They suggested that half of a vehicle's fuel is spent overcoming drag when driving at speeds above 50 mph.

baggs32

The 2.4L engine in the CR-V is brand new, and the RSX currently uses the 2.0L engine. The Integra used the a 1.8L engine before the RSX. If Honda would only allow the public to view all of their TSB's (this was discussed somewhere around here)I'm sure we Ford backers would have more to talk about. Scape2 is right about the interior materials. They are pretty much equal when you look closely. Honda just did a better job at making them like they are higher in quality. As for the gas mileage, it can and will differ with everyone. Our Escape (V6 4WD) started out averaging about 17 mpg, but after roughly 2000 miles it is now averaging about 19. I expect it to climb a little more as the engine continues to break in. That is for a fairly equal combination of hilly highway and city roads, and no drag racing. I don't even think I've had the tach above 5000 yet come to think of it.

carguy62

I see plenty of Escapes with the 4 cyl. At least I assume that's what they are, since they have no V6 badge.

What do you hope to find by seeing TSBs? I think everyone knows that every automaker has problems. If Honda had problems that were serious enough to warrant a recall, you, I and everyone else would know it. I do know about some, the seatbelts on the CR-V and the emissions issue from a few years back are two that I remember.

Are automakers so different than any other business that the public should be aware of internal issues? I bet Sears has had problems with appliances but I don't recall the public clamoring for info on that.

carguy62

I must have seen an early commercial.

This, from a story on Auto.com:

"Ford Motor Co. on Friday will begin offering rebates of $500 to $1,000 on its Escape small sport-utility vehicles, one of the few in its lineup that it had been largely selling without discounts, the Wall Street Journal reported in its online edition on Friday."

This is their explanation as to why they are offering the rebate:

"A Ford spokeswoman told the Journal that the company was reacting to aggressive discounts by competitors."

Not sure which competitors they are referring to but Honda isn't offering discounts, but they sure are outselling the Escape.

baggs32

I don't hope to see anything by viewing TSB's because as I've told you, I'm very happy with my Escape and I wouldn't change a thing about it. But a lot of people do use them as a quality/reliability gauge when shopping for a new vehicle. Which brand is going to look better to you, the one with several TSB's, or the one with one, two, or none? I've been reading the CR-V board a little here and there, and maybe it's just me, but I get the impression that a lot of the people there really do believe that Honda can do no wrong. If they ever tried to view Honda's TSB's on say nhtsa.com, they would not see anything to sway their view because not much is there to begin with, but not because it doesn't exist. I guess I'm just a little annoyed that some (I'm not singling anyone out here) people will actually post a degrading opinion of a vehicle that they don't own, and therefore don't know anything about other than what they saw or heard from someone else. My guess is that the majority of people who buy foreign cars, did so because they heard from someone else that they are more reliable, well built, etc. when compared to domestic brands. Others may have bought one because they had a bad experience with a domestic brand. I myself buy domestic brands because I have had nothing but great experiences with them, and when I say that my Honda has had more than it's share of problems I can almost hear the soft roar from the collective gasps of other Honda owners. I think I'm starting to ramble, sorry about that. My point is, and I think it was posted on this board before, this is supposed to be a place where we can compare features, specs, etc. so that others' may benefit from our personal experiences with our own vehicles. Anyone can post "the Escape's a piece of junk", or "Escape's reliability stinks" and then they can tack on some of the past problems to make it seem even worse than it really is. But if I were to say something like "the CR-V is a flaming piece of junk", or "Honda reliability is a bunch of BS" I would get attacked and asked to prove it. Since we cannot view all of the little problems that may exist, I can't really say something like that and back it up can I? Domestic brands are just easier targets in this case. Seriously though, in reality these are two very comparable vehicles that we are trying to compare here, and telling everyone that one is so terrible when compared to the other does not benefit them at all because there really is no proof, that we all can see anyway, that says otherwise. carguy62, to answer your question, yes I do think that every automaker should release it's TSB's to the public. I think every owner should have the right to see if something is wrong with their vehicle at any given time. They shouldn't have to place their trust in a service dept. that may or may not be on the ball that day. I had a lot more to say, so I hope that made sense.

baggs32

Ford is targeting GM with the rebates because they were outsold in Feb., by Chevy I believe, for the first time in like 17 years or something like that. GM is offering huge rebates on all of their vehicles right now. I read something yesterday that the Escape rebates are $500 for the V6, and an extra $500 onto that if you buy a 4cyl. Looking at the dealer lots around here, the V6's are still very hard to find, and the 4cyl's are starting to accumulate.

carguy62

But it works both ways.

How many times do I read "the CR-V needs a V6", "the CR-V is underpowered", etc. I doubt these people have even driven the vehicle. They make a general statement based on their wants and desires.

But if an automaker has quality problems with a vehicle that makes headlines or is easy to find on the internet I don't see what's wrong with using that as part of the decision process. Domestic or Import.

baggs32

Let me try to clarify a little. Saying "the CR-V needs a V6", or "the CR-V is underpowered" aren't the types of comments I was talking about. Sorry if they came across like that. Anyone can find out for themselves whether those are true or not by looking at spec sheets, or by going on a test drive. But Saying that something is a piece of junk and that the other is so much better just because they've seen more issues for the latter just doesn't pan out when the other is holding back information. You can't possibly say that something is junk without truly having a long term experience with it. You can however develop your own opinion, of something like an engine's performance, after a test drive or two. I myself am guilty of saying that the CR-V engine is underpowered (I think I actually called it a dog at one time), and really, it all boils down to what you need it for. Big hills are all around where I live, and after a thorough test drive I just didn't feel that the smaller engine would be able to handle them the way I wanted, therefore my choices were immediately narrowed down. If I too lived in Chicago (been there a couple of times, great town by the way) where hills do not exist, I would have had a tougher decision to make. I see almost as many CR-V's around here as I do Escapes, so obviously not everyone had the same hang-ups that I had with the power. When it comes to available information, the playing field does not appear to be level.

I don't see a problem with people using the headlines as part of the decision process, but because some automakers are hiding those headlines and other issues, they don't get to see both sides and are too quick to pass judgment sometimes.

carguy62

I think varmint went into how Ford's being honest about problems actually hurt them.

I disagree that automakers should be an open book. Unless there is a gov't mandated reason (recall) they have every right to keep their business their own. I used Sears and their appliances as an example, I think it fits. Does your company give out internal information to the public? I know mine doesn't.

As to Ford having a rebate because GM is beating them. That doesn't fit with what the Ford spokesperson said about the Escape. What GM vehicle is a competitor to the Escape? The Vue is one, but that isn't making a dent in Escape sales. So are you saying GM is beating Ford everywhere so they had to put a rebate on the Escape? Doesn't make sense to me. Will someone who was going to buy a Tahoe decide to buy an Escape because it now has a rebate?

I should probably qualify my statements about the CR-V with "I'm a flatlander". Although I live in a river valley and there is some varied terrain, you and everyone else would probably laugh at it. My brother lives in the SF Bay area, to get to the city he has to go through the Oakland hills. They call them hills, to me they are mountains. The little hill I encounter is barely a speed bump to you.

scape2

www.alldata.com and ask yourself why Honda is holding back TSB information? When all the automakers don't have that window pop up??
It comes a sad day when people follow blindly and don't ask any questions. Honda's aren't perfect. There are plenty of people around the net at other chat rooms that have had problems or are having problems with Honda vehicles.
The rebates haven't reached here yet. I called a Ford dealership and talked with the finance manager and he knew nothing of these rebates? Maybe it depends on the region?
The Escape to a black eye on INITIAL introduction. This will take sometime for this stigma to go by the wayside.
I can see why the 4cyl model Escapes are piling up on the dealer lots! Its the weakest 4cyl in the segment pulling one of the heaviest..
The V6 is the way to go..

stever

"Ford's turnaround is predicated on fixing quality problems."

Forbes story

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

baggs32

We'll just have to agree to disagree on what information should be public, and what should not. I know that I would like to see everything that could be wrong with my vehicle so I can have it fixed before it breaks, or be able to tell an incompetent mechanic that instructions are available when he/she tells me that they can't figure it out.

The Ford BRAND was outsold by the Chevy BRAND in Feb., and they were very upset about it because it has not happened in a long time. They are offering rebates/financing right now on just about everything except the Thunderbird in order to regain the sales crown. They are just looking to sell more vehicles period, not regain market shares of competing vehicles. GM doesn't have a competitor for the Mustang, Crown Vic, or Excursion either, and they all have rebates I think. As a matter of fact, I don't think any manufacturer, foreign or domestic, has a direct competitor to the Crown Vic. Boosting total sales numbers for the Ford brand is a better way to put it I guess. I just read all of this in today's USA Today (on usatoday.com). Ford did outsell Chevy in March, and they want to continue that trend by offering more incentives.

carguy62

I look at it the other way. Why are certain automakers telling the public everything that's wrong with their product? I don't know of any other industry that does that.

You tell me that Honda doesn't make their TSBs public. I have to trust you as I haven't looked for them. I do know that people were able to get a TSB# for a problem that some are experiencing with their CR-Vs. So they are out there somewhere.

baggs32

They have had some initial quality issues with a few vehicles, and they are trying to turn that all around. We've all agreed on that. But those issues eventually get fixed, and what's left over is a great vehicle. scape2 has been trying to get this through to everyone for quite some time now and I can see why. Maybe we should put it this way: The new Escape's are huge improvements over the initial models in terms of number of problems. The past is over, and new opinions need to be formed. Hopefully they can make Ford quality more like Jaguar's. I don't want to have to wait until 2005 to buy the next gen Mustang because they had to work out some "issues" with the 2004's.