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Honda Element

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The more I see the more I like. Look at that back seat - you have so much room a hoops player could cross his legs.

    -juice
  • moonkatmoonkat Posts: 265
    Tried to find graphics for Handicapped/rotating seat, and located:
    http://www.honda.co.jp/factbook/auto/STEPWGN/200104/03.html
    Stepwagon - with handicapped seat option; not quite the simple swivelling front seat I recalled (ext view of outstretched drivers seat).


    However, the first and third row seating look like they may have been adapted to the Element (see top photo).
    http://www.honda.co.jp/factbook/auto/STEPWGN/200104/05.html
    Looks like both first & second row are forward/rearward facing and the third row folds up to the side a'la Element. Front seats look like they swivel 180 degrees and second row looks to rotate back 180 degrees so the seat back becomes the seat bottom.

    So Element may have face to face seating!
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Someone was complaining about their pickup's suicide doors today - found it hard to get stuff in the truck when other cars were parked next to it. Be curious to see what the real world experience is with the Element's.

    Steve
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  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    That Step Wgn is one funky little ride! I think they're pretty cool, sort of like a CR-Van. ;-)

    -juice
  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    If someone parked real close to your car, even conventional doors would pose a problem...
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    But not usually a problem for my sliders :-)

    Maybe the Axcess was ahead of it's time?

    Just something to look for when they hit the showrooms; may be no biggie.

    Steve
    Host
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  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    Where they pull into a tight parking space and all had to climb out through the rear liftgate?

    Well, seeing how the seats fold up to the side and all, that creates a straight hallway into the back.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    LOL

    I just had a warped mental picture of that Focus commercial. When the kids climb out of the Focus, they find the're parked in the back of the Element.
  • cb70cb70 Posts: 226
    would be very neat in the Element.
  • moonkatmoonkat Posts: 265
    Gang,
    It's all speculation, and wishful thinking on our part, but Honda can pull it all together....
    I think they are limited more by budget than technical ability.
    varmint: very good, can you produce that warped comm'l on a web page?-) Would be more productive than debating gm-lito on the pilot forum...:-}
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    If you look below the drivers seat in this pic, you can see the track under the driver's seat. Note that it doesn't have the same base as the one in the StepWGN.


    I also noticed that the rear passengers don't really have an armrest. There's one on the rear door, but the seat is a good 12-18" farther back in the vehicle.


    GM_Lito has tried to pit the Aztek against the CR-V, the Ody, and now the Pilot. How long before we see him in here?

  • ropedartropedart Posts: 163
    I knew Honda has done configurable seats in Japan. I don't understand why they didn't go thru with the Stepwagon chairs. Either they did not have time or they will offer it in 2004. The extra cost could have been covered by offering it as an option. Like the Stepwagon they could just have the front thigh support go up to form a seatback.

    As for the suicide doors, Yep, I would have liked sliding doors but it would have said VAN. 4 doors would have said me-too cute-ute. No, the Element is a fashion statement that says:
    1. My car is bigger than your car. (Vibe/Matrix,Protege5,Focus,Civic,Impreza,Sentra,PT Cruiser,Neon,etc)
    2. My face is prettier than your face.(Aztec)
    3. My THING is different than your thing.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Plus it'll be interesting to see how the suicide doors fare in some of the "destructive" testing in Varmint's link above.

    Steve
    Host
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  • moonkatmoonkat Posts: 265
    While I'm speculating:
    I'd like the Element to have 48" wide rear opening to haul bldg materials flat on floor.

    Seems reasonable:-} My Ody is about 76" wide with 48" opening, and 14" frame/int on each side ((76-48)/2=14"), and a lot of this depth is taken up by padding/storage nooks. The Element is about 70" wide which leaves about 11" for frame/chassis on each side.

    This also supports the design of the small (about 14" to 18") tail-gate. This would allow 4'x8' sheets to fit within the dimensions of the lowered tail-gate. Wouldn't that be functional?!

    Actually, I think Honda has to accommodate the 4'x8' dimension if it wants to break into the light truck market. This might be a start.

    ropedart: You have again pointed out a major reason for vehicle selection in #3 above: "own thang", or what people want others to perceive as their thang.
    Also, I do not discount possiblity of Honda adapting/modifying the face to face seating to the Element. I'm curious how they will accommodate the +-6" height difference between the front and rear seats. When I looked at the front seat views; it appeared that the seats could be slid all the way off their tracks rotated 180 degrees and reinstalled. Then all you'd need would be a seat height adjustment, or maybe there is a hidden elevated track/attachment under the front seats on which you'd mount the rearward facing seats???!!! Entirely doable.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Funny but true, diploid. Problem is other cars would give you door dings.

    varmint: I noticed the seats being farther back, too. In fact that would make it harder to load an infant seat, because you'd have to reach in with it. Of course Honda is targeting younger folks.

    I kind of doubt a sheet of plywood could slide it, but if I'm wrong, Honda could built a pickup (SUT style) out of this platform. The only car-based competition would be the Baja, and Subaru definitely left a few doors open with some notable misses (no H6, short wheelbase, no midgate).

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    It "looks" like the Element has a wider cargo area than the CR-V. The rear suspension seems to intrude less. Wonder if it's a different design. I dunno about 4x8 fitting back there, though. The Pilot can handle that dimension, so Honda might consider themselves covered. Also, I'd think we would have seen it mentioned in the press trash.
  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    Just read the preview from Edmunds. Didn't think it said anything new that we haven't dug up for ourselves. Glad to see at least other people like it, too.

    re: GM_lito - I admire the guy's tenacity. Just as long as he doesn't go into the typical "buy domestic" litany, I don't mind him.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Re GM_Lito... He is a pretty reasonable guy. He just keeps pointing the Aztek at every vehicle on the road and making direct comparisons. It gets old.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    The Pilot can handle 4x8s, but I doubt with the tailgate closed. I'd be very surprised if there is 8' of length there in the cargo area.

    Bob
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Bob - You are correct. I misread that in the MT review from their latest issue. Someone corrected me over in the Pilot thread. Checking again, I found that C&D has better info. They list the "largest sheet of plywood" as 75.4 x 49.0 inches.
  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    I thought C&D's review of the Pilot was more thorough than the MT one, anyway. It's funny how they remarked that the Pilot was heavy at 4000+ pounds, and yet Honda is bragging that it's the lightest in its class.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Diploid - If you only compare it to eight passenger minivan-based SUVs, then Honda is correct. Of course, I don't know of any other, so it's a one horse race.
  • ropedartropedart Posts: 163
    Looking at the Element photos it looks like it gets the CRV front chair rails. Not suprising. It maybe a wait and see sitation for Honda to invest in rear facing front seats. If there are rear facing seat mechs for CRV then the Element can take them. A rear facing seat would aid entry thru those suicide doors.

    BTW the Element is spec'd as 4 seater. The Element I am sure is as wide as CRV. So it can take 5 people in a crunch. You can see the space between the seat belts.(Really 5 seats usually means 4.75 people and the Element is about 4.5 seats. Just right for inserting a child seat). I knew the Element had to go to 4 seats because of the rear wheel intrusion. In order to lay down the rear seats they must clear the wheel wells. The CRV rear seats cannot lay down because of the wheel wells.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I bet Pilot feels nice compared to Explorer and Durango, plus the TrailBlazer EXT. That's the class it's competing in.

    But I'm sure an Element will feel more spunky, fun to drive. Pilot won't even offer a manual tranny, right?

    I wonder if that rear middle spot will even have a seat belt.

    -juice
  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    I hope it does.

    As for the Trailblazer EXT - it looks odd. GM should've just added a small 3rd row into the Trailblazer from the start. It's not hurting the Acura MDX, the Explorer or the Durango from a sales point of view.
  • gm_litogationgm_litogation Posts: 168
    I said my little sister loves the Element, she's 9 and she says it looks just like the cars on Pokemon!

    Somebody said earlier GM took the utility out of the Minivan and put together the Aztek, what a joke.

    The Aztek will do far more than this Pokemon rig ever thought about! LOL!
  • gm_litogationgm_litogation Posts: 168
    What's your problem?

    I had a Chevy Beretta, it was my 1st car I loved it. That's one of the reasons I'm such a GM advocate.

    Why do you dislike me so much? This is only the 2nd time I've posted in this topic?
  • cb70cb70 Posts: 226
    on the Pilot board. Now I get to hear about it here too. You have stated the merits of the Az and Rend. numerous times. Now please let it rest and go back to the correct boards to post about them.
  • gm_litogationgm_litogation Posts: 168
    A certain amount of comparison is good for any of the boards. Even the Moderators like to see that. I'm sorry it makes you angry when I post comparisons to the Aztek. FYI I'm not the one who originally compared the Aztek to the Pilot, Motor Trend did. If you look through this topic, again I'm not the one who started the comparison of the Element to the Aztek.

    Why are you so against the Aztek anyway? What has it ever done to you? You do realize that it pretty much beats it's competitors in every category? You also drive a GM product? Don't you like it? You should have some brand loyalty, the Aztek may very well be one of the best vehicles ever produced by GM.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    The first car I purchased was an '86 Cavalier Z24 (pretty much the same thing as a Beretta). It's the reason why I haven't gone back to GM.
  • cb70cb70 Posts: 226
    product. Period. GM has only one vehicle I am interested in and that is the VUE.

    I am against the Aztec because it is just an extremely ugly version of the Montana. Nothing else.

    Comparison is fine. Beating a dead horse is another. I am not angry at you per se. I just am tired of hearing how much better the Az is than anything else. Your opinion has been heard. Leave it at that. If a comparison is really what you want, start a Pilot versus Aztec thread.
  • gm_litogationgm_litogation Posts: 168
    Hate to correct you but the Beretta was quite different, it was a completely different platform also. Mine was a really nice car that to this day I haven't found anything that was anywhere near as fun. It was a GT model with a v6 and a 5 speed! Loved it!

    Oh ya it's Aztek with a "k"
  • moonkatmoonkat Posts: 265
    I wouldn't be surprized if the Element bests the Aztec in a number of areas including acceleration; handling; fuel economy; reliability; utility; and matches it in remainder of areas; volume (I wouldn't be surprised if Element approaches Pilot volume of 90.3 cf, CR-V is 72cf); 5 pass seating; & fashion statement.

    Well I guess this refuge from gm-lito and the Aztec is no more...

    Play nice kids.......:-)
  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    Pokemon rig? Ok yeah, it does look a bit cartoonish.
    But you'll never confuse it for a garbage truck!
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    The trouble with the Aztek is that it doesn't have anyone to play with. There's nothing else remotely similar to it. I mean, there was at one time. But that species died off a few years back.
  • gm_litogationgm_litogation Posts: 168
    You have what's called "foot in mouth disorder".

    The 02' Aztek out handles, out brakes, has more cargo and payload capacity, and a way better stereo than the CRV or the Pilot. Oh it also comes with more standard features, is an overall better value, has had fewer TSB's than the CRV, oh ya and it gets better gas mileage than the Pilot.

    It's also been proven to be a very well made, solid vehicle in it's 1st couple years. Reliable too!

    Oh hey did I mention it cost less! Maybe I did, did I mention I like to watch you Honda guys squirm?

    Varmint I think your species died when the Aztek was developed, your belief that America can't build anything better than Honda is outdated. Good luck on your CRV's and Pilots, when you see an Aztek maybe you'll think of me, and maybe you'll think,......

    "you know that thing can hold 94 cubic feet of cargo and 1350 lbs of payload, oh ya and it out handles and out brakes the CRV and the Pilot; and gets better gas mileage than the Pilot too".
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Anyone got any Element news?

    Steve
    Host
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  • gm_litogationgm_litogation Posts: 168
    They just keep asking for it.....

    How can I resist!
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Maybe one of our infamous "tou" letters would help?

    LOL

    Steve
    Host
    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • moonkatmoonkat Posts: 265
    gm-lito:
    If you have the cure then what's ailling you? (Physician heal thyself)

    I find it hilarious that you can compare Aztec with a non-existent vehicle (my bad), and come out on top. But comparing the "big A" with other vehicles on a pick and choose parameters is par for your course (ohhhhh, sorry Steve).

    However, Aztec comparisons with the Element are inevitable. They appear to be marketed in similar fashion; Aztec in suburban camping situations, and Element at beach/surf camps. Element demographics are painfully "gen Y" oriented (and off the mark) while Aztec demographics are just winging it - run it up the flag pole and see who salutes, and if not we can change the appearance.

    They both originate from the minivan school of structural and aesthetic design though Element adheres to the "form follows function" philosophy more consistently. The up side of this is that both vehicles are positive statements for their minivan roots while taking the aesthetics in a new (read non-SUV) direction.

    The benefits of this "minivan school of design" are undeniable, and to bring some of these benefits over to SUV-like-capable vehicles benefits consumers who own as well as coexist with vehicles like the Aztec, Element, upcoming Pacifica, Murano, and others entering the hybrid segment.

    In the future, we'll be able to compare actual handling, mpg, volume and so forth; and I'll look forward to that. Even at this stage the two vehicles while similarly purposed, are probably in different size/weight classes. More importantly, they are implementations of similar philosophies with differing degrees of success.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Cavaliers were J-cars, Berettas were X-cars. Basically, it's a better looking Citation. The Citation X10 even had the Beretta's V6.

    My high school girl friend owned a Beretta GT, her brother owned two (a GT and later a GTU). The V6 was peppy but odd ergonomics and poor build quality sort of spoiled their experience.

    I'm sure the Aztek will outbreak the Element. ;-)

    At least I can understand the Rendezvous, because of the seating capacity. There is zero cargo room with the 3rd seat in place, though. While a V6 sounds nice on paper, it was coarse and unrefined during our test drive. It's not fuel efficient or quick, either.

    We also drove a CR-V, and after chirping its tires in 2nd gear I can assure you it would blow away that coarse V6 in every way, except perhaps torque for towing.

    But Aztec subtracts seats from the minivan without offering anything significant in return (at least nothing the Rendezvous doesn't do better). Even ignoring the looks, I don't get it.

    Element adds utility to the hot selling CR-V for less money. That's easy to get.

    -juice
  • gm_litogationgm_litogation Posts: 168
    The Beretta and Corsica were all alone, they were the L bodies.

    Only time will tell how well the Aztek vs. CRV vs. Element reliability holds up. The Aztek does alot, and it pretty much does it better than the Rendevous, look at it's performance compared with the RDV.

    When equipped with an auto the CRV and the Tek are very close in acceleration.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Z-24 had the same V6 as well, though it was slightly smaller and weighed less.

    Juice - Actually, I expect that the Aztek will be pretty decent in terms of reliability. Many of the components have been around for a decade or so. I'm sure they've worked the bugs out by now.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    GM - I have yet to see the new CR-V score 10.8 seconds in the 0-60. Even CR's 9.6 seconds is a full second faster than the Aztek. That's the slowest 0-60 time I've found for the new CR-V.

    That one MT review you keep using is not the final word on acceleration.
  • gm_litogationgm_litogation Posts: 168
    The V6 in the Z-24 was the 2.8 liter, they also used it in the Beretta it's what I had in my Beretta. It wasn't any smaller or lighter than the 3.4 or the 3.1 liter. Although it was still small and fairly light. The berretta came with twisted wedge aluminum heads and an all aluminum intake and components. I later blew up my 2.8 through the use of Nitrous oxide, that's what happened to my Beretta.

    Although on the bottle it was producing 268 horses to the front wheels. It really screamed! FYI the car was extremely modified and pretty much surprised everything I went up against.

    Oh well enough about the Beretta, lets talk about the Element. The performance of the Element in my mind should be exactly like that of the CRV. I mean I could be wrong, but the numbers tell me they are almost exactly the same vehicle. I might have said this earilier, but I think they should just add some styling accessories to the current CRV and scrap the Element all together.
  • gm_litogationgm_litogation Posts: 168
    What are you talking about? You are comparing different times from different mags!

    I'm talking about the 17.0 the CRV ran in the quarter vs. the 17.3 the Aztek ran. These times were achieved in the same conditions by the same magazine. Let's stick with the program.

    That's almost no difference especially when you consider the Aztek was clocked at a faster trap speed. The real difference comes when you put these vehicles through the slalom and braking tests. The Aztek wins hands down.
  • moonkatmoonkat Posts: 265
    While it is reported that the Element will be based on the CR-V chassis & drive-train there can still be variations on this theme that affect the final product.

    I've already expressed desire for:
    48" wide opening (at least where the short tailgate folds down); longer 106" wheelbase from Stream which might enable greater cargo capacity (this is a long shot as that is nearly MDX/Pilot wheelbase). While the drivetrain is the same/similar to CR-V, the less luxurious Element would likely be lighter than the 3400 lbs CR-V by as much as 200 lbs. This would make for bigger horses on the Element; that is better hp to weight ratio. And for sportiness I would like to see the Civic Si/SiR dash shifter for the 5-spd manual. That would likely make for low 8sec 0-60 times for Element (CR-V is already at 8.5 with 5spd). Also would like less ground clearance; I don't off road but like AWD all weather traction - say just 6".

    That C&D June issue reviewing the Pilot also had a comparo of what used to be called "econo-boxes", they are now called "stylish youth vehicles" (whatever). I kept wondering how the Element would fare in such a review, and if Element handling is more Civic than CR-V like, probably quite well.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    GM - My bad. I meant that the car was lighter and smaller, not the engine.

    IIRC, the data I referenced is from C&D. I'll double check.

    Moonkat - I thought I read somewhere that the Element will have the same 8.1" clearance that the CR-V has. I'll have to look for that, too.

    Of significant note is the fact that the Element has a completely flat floor. The floor under the front seats is exactly the same height as the cargo floor. That is not the case with the CR-V (or any other SUV that I know of). It's one difference between the wagon and van body styles.

    Also, the wheel well intrusions into the cargo area seem farther apart than the CR-V. Makes me wonder if the rear suspension is a different design. If so, then the Element might handle worse than the CR-V, but be able to haul or two larger loads. Complete speculation, of course.
  • moonkatmoonkat Posts: 265
    I recall you mentioned that observation re greater space between wheel well intrusions and that's my perception as well.
    Of course I'm going to wish positive....enhanced handling as a result of this...:-)

    Ground clearance; the 8.1 is credible as the photos seem to support this. It's just that an Element with about 4-5" clearance and wide fat tires would look like a Super mini-cooper (Maxi mini-cooper?) from the front view, and still offer a lot of utility, and sportiness.

    Take another look at the Edmunds Element preview video to see what I mean. Same broad flat hood over pronounced headlights, high broad windshield, similar stance and proportions. This vehicle is going to be a tuner's delight....all kinds of possibilities.

    And (positive) speculation fun is what we're about!
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