Honda Element

ateixeira

Hmm, isn't i-VTEC (i=intelligent) a generation ahead of "dumb" VTEC?

Any why a "Powered by Mugen" sticker if it's false?

Sorry to bust your chops.

-juice

varmint

Juice - I want to see a power clamshell gate like the back end of a garbage truck. Something that will take all the junk that kids generate, compact it, and spit out. Add the fork loader to the front and you can lift stuff up and drop it through the moonroof.

ateixeira

Some friends and I were discussing how to get that trash out. I mentioned removing all the seats and using a power blower. Other suggestions included a garden hose and even a pressure washer.

But compacting would allow for a whole new level of trash ridding ability!

-juice

varmint

Power blower - Too bad Honda A/C systems aren't that strong. I wonder what central vac would cost as an aftermaket upgrade?

diploid

Don't confuse this with a RAV4.

strager

Those RAV headlights look good to me!

I really like the functionality of the Element, except those suicide doors. I know Honda is not targeting families, but sliding doors would have been nice. Even with sliders, it would not look like a minivan, IMO.

paisan

It's so boxy that it will hold lots of stuff, unlike most SUVs today that are just curvy crappola.

-mike

diploid

strager- Wow...I never thought about sliding doors, but now that you mentioned it, it does make more sense than the suicidal doors.

I read in the vtec forums that the Element is rather heavy and, using the CR-V's 2.4L, takes roughly 12 seconds to reach 60.

diploid

Fixed some minor flaws, I felt those side lights were redundant if the headlights wrapped to the sides.

scname

Diploid has too much free time. May I see a big shiny chrome bumper on an orange X next ?

diploid

You know, I still haven't figured out how to make things metallic. I bet it would help if I read the manual...

ateixeira

I hope you guys are wrong about the weight.

Those do look like RAV4 headlights.

-juice

nwng

I thought they will make the car go faster!

Gotta get those "i-vtec" stickers ready and be first to sell on ebay.

All right, I guess I will just slap on a huge "SOHC 16-valve" sticker then, and a giant honda logo on the hood.

paisan

Put a big Aluminum wing on there and it will FLY!

-mike

ateixeira

Maybe you could custom rig that rear moonroof to pop up an out, like the old CRX's, remember those? Built-in spoiler!

-juice

diploid

I don't know, juice.

Someone in the vtec forum asked the same question, and one of the answers was that metal reinforcing was needed to achieve the expected 5-star side safety rating, and thus increase the weight.

ropedart

A done deal for 2005. Element has company. VR6 of course.

ateixeira

Not really, the current VW van runs $30 grand or more. I think they just lowered the base price to around $26k, so it'll still be about two price levels above the Element.

-juice

varmint

Ropedart - Any new pics of the VDub? The concept version didn't ignite much passion (as can be seen in this link). But I haven't seen a production version of it.

ateixeira

I disagree with that article - I think the Microbus concept looked cool. A modern interpretation of the original, not just retro styling.

-juice

varmint

I know his review focused on the VW's styling, but, given the way the author reviewed the Model X, I think his reasonings were more than sheet metal deep. It's just that he had a limited number of words and he chose to spend them on the styling.

ropedart

The challenge for the new microbus is frontal collision. The old one was a death trap with no frontal crush zone. The new one is going to be like the concept I understand.
Speaking of which, Why does the ELEMENT need 5 star crash rating? You are talking about a target demographic that is going to surf 20 foot waves, snowboard outofbounds, mountainbike cliffs, windsurf storms, climb 10,000 peaks, kayak rapids and they are going to WORRY ABOUT THEIR SAFETY???? Tell me I am wrong but young people think they are immortal. I don't think they are shopping for safety. They look for power and speed. Cut the rating back to 1 star and they don't care. They do care about 0-60.

rsholland

I see it as just another "fad-vehicle," like the new VW Bug, PT Cruiser, Prowler, and Viper. It's style over substance, nothing more.

I really question as to what car companies will do as a follow-up act to these one-off wonders. Can you see VW actually "improving" the new Bug, with a next-generation model? The new '03 Viper is a classic example of what I'm talking about: it may be a better vehicle to live with on a day-to-day basis, but much of the "animal lure" of the original Viper has been lost. C&D did an excellent design analysis of the new Viper last month, which I agree with 100%. It's tough, if not impossible, to improve upon perfection. In many of these cases, the "original" can't be improved upon. Case in point, the new Viper...

Frankly, I see these one-off wonders as a one-time deals, with little staying power for the long run. Maybe they'll become collectors items, but I really doubt if there will be a VW Bug (or any of the others) still being produced 10 years from now.

Bob

ateixeira

I don't think anyone wants to be unsafe. But they might look at it as a selling point to justify the purchase to their parents.

Beetle will milk stardom a little longer when the drop-top arrives. But you're right, it's hard to even imagine an update. What about something with head room for the rear seat? They can't fix that without a total change in styling.

Chrysler should keep the PT, though. Maybe make it a little bigger. It's still selling (though with rebates now) and it was the only Chrysler to get the highest reliability rating from CR (the bug, on the other hand, is a dud).

I think the Prowler is already gone.

-juice

varmint

Bob - I've often wondered the same thing about the Beetle. Good comparison with the Viper. I'm also wondering what will happen to the new T-bird under the same cicumstances. Cars that are focused on style alone often fall flat when it comes time to update it.

Ropedart - Crash safety has become part of the "Honda Thing". Though by no means is it unique to Honda. They are required to build safe cars, fuel efficient cars, or green cars... But that's the kind of car that Honda wants to build.

It's just like BMW not being interested in building boring, affordable, appliance-like cars.

ateixeira

Ford is hurting so I doubt they'll get a new RWD platform. That means the LS will likely just get an update, and the T-bird will inherit those too. I doubt the looks will change for 7 years or so, it'll have a long life cycle is my guess.

Honda probably isn't worried much. They didn't spend that much, considering they used the CR-V platform and engine. So it won't take long for them to recover their (small) investment.

If it succeeds, they'll make another based on the next CR-V. If it fails, they won't. Pretty simple.

-juice

strager

This is kind of OT, but I too have never understood the hoopla about Lutz and the Prowler, and all those low volume retro concept vehicles that populate the Detroit show every January. No wonder the Big 3 are losing market share, trying to relive their glory days past. Also think that with the proposed pricing for the Microbus, it's going to be in a slump after about a year.

I'm glad Honda sticks with the present, and am looking forward to a new small car (not SUV) introduction from Honda next January.

rsholland

is that it relies on "fond memories" for success—especially when you reincarnate an older model. It's living off the past, and that will only get you so far. It's something you can only do once; that's it.

Bob

diploid

rsholland- While I agree with what you say, you can't ignore the success of the new Mini. I'm too young to remember the 50's or the 60's, but I don't recall my parents ever talking one, either. That hasn't stopped them, or me, from being attracted to this new car.

rsholland

I agree—but when it comes time to replace the new Mini, what does BMW do?

The Mini will have the same problem that the new Bug has, as does the PT Cruiser, and all the others. What are you going to replace them with—that going to equal or top the vehicle being replaced?

All these "mobile fashion statements" are fad vehicles, as great as they are. They're almost impossible to improve upon. So, yeah, now the manufacturers are riding high, but what about in five years time, when the luster wears off, and they need to be replaced?

Remember when the PT Cruiser came out, dealers were selling to the highest bidder. Today they're offering discounts. Same will happen to the Mini—eventually.

Bob

ropedart

The smart thing to do is to do platforms. They all should know it is a fashion industry. Change the bodies keep the drivetrain.
I just hope they make a cheaper version of the microbus. It is not cheaper than a Eurovan and that sells 2 units a year in the US. There will be initial interest and then drop.
After the Element trucks will follow on CRV drivetrain.

paisan

The mini will keep on selling even if they re-design it with minor body mods. Why? Cause it's quite fast on the auto-x and I'd imaging on the race track as well.

-mike

diploid

It's a BMW.

thechoices

Yet again I have witnessed another generalization aimed at young people. In your message (#421) you stated, "Tell me I am wrong but young people think they are immortal. I don't think they are shopping for safety. They look for power and speed. Cut the rating back to 1 star and they don't care. They do care about 0-60." Well, I hate to break it to you, but you are wrong. I am a teen considering new vehicle choices for my time at college. (and yes I am paying for the vehicle with money I have earned) However, I will admit that I do like a vehicle that can perform (no not stupid drag racing, more like a twisty road performance), I value safety, functionality, and quality first in a vehicle. I have considered vehicles in my price range and narrowed them down based off of SAFETY, PRACTICALITY, and LASTING QUALITY, with a bit of style in mind. Currently I have narrowed my choices down to a VW Golf TDI which has everything I need in a vehicle and and a few extras (I will admit though, I am a BIG VW fan, however I think the beetle is a ugly car...is it coming or going, you can never tell!).
With this new Honda Element on the way, I decided to put my purchase on hold till I can try this thing out. I know that it isn't good to purchase first run vehicles (although this is a variation of a civic based platform, the shifter is even mounted on the dash similar to the Civic Si shifter, although the Element is a automatic) but I am going to give the Honda a chance because they seem to make dependable cars. The styling wasn't a love-at-first-site thing(it isn't a hideous thing like the Aztec or Vibe/Matrix twins, at least in my opinion), but I am more interested in the functionality of the vehicle.

Yes I do mountain bike, but I don't think I am invincible, and no I don't know everything. I dislike it when people make generalizations based off of dumb media assumptions, especially when it comes to young people. It is because of these assumptions us young people have opportunities taken away from us.

Here is a list of the cars I had narrowed the field down from: Nissan Sentra Spec V (good handling and nice quality feel, but wasn't very good for cargo hauling); Toyota Corrolla (felt like a cheaply built car, seats weren't comfortable, handled like a 95' suburban, and didn't feel safe on the interstate), Ford Focus ZX5 (nice car, but ford has some quality issues and having the power windows stop working on a test drive wasn't too comforting); Honda Civic 4 doorEX 5spd (very nice car, but it lost to the TDI on MPG)

tidester

Perhaps we should start up a separate thread to discuss marketing strategies and demographic "art?"

tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories

moonkat

Steve:
Hope you'll indulge our off topic strayings....
Hard info on Element is few and far in-between, and this keeps the topic alive while waiting on the Dec roll-out...:-)

Besides, the discussions are fascinating..."What does Gen-Y want?", and "Why should we care?".

diploid

moonkat- That's not Steve.

stever

But we're all pretty indulgent around here ;-)

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

ateixeira

Lutz pushed interesting products that generated showroom traffic for Chrysler. It's their spotty quality control and makes people think twice.

I like the Mini concept, but I wouldn't buy one. Not well suited to US roads, and anything that small ought to be a roadster.

You guys seen the ads? One include a BARF BAG. Seriously.

To bring this back on topic, I wonder how Honda will market the Element? Think about it - they can't do extreme sports after mocking Nissan in their CR-V ads. So how can they single out young males?

Music, maybe? It worked for VW and Mitsu.

-juice

diploid

I find that Mitsubishi commercial with the girl break dancing to Dirty Vegas utterly annoying. I sincerely hope Honda does not go down that path with the Element.

rsholland

the college crowd, so anything is possible.

Bob

ropedart

How to promote the Element. There should be no sign of boomers anywhere. Not boomer written. Not boomer shot. Not directed by a boomer. Not produced by a boomer. No boomer music. No boomer icons. No boomer people. No boomer pop culture. No boomer language. No boomer jokes. No boomer metaphors. Other than that anything goes. In fact it should surprise everyone.

varmint

Quite frankly, I don't see the sense in marketing toward the Gen Y crowd. Not directly. Buyers at that age can't afford their own car, nevermind a brand new one.

I suspect the art to this sort of thing is to create a car that appeals to Gen X, but is hip enough to make the Gen Y demographic envious. That way the car makes money and attracts the interest of future buyers.

rsholland

if the Element's marketing mirrors current VW marketing. Both products are aimed at a young, hip audience.

Bob

whatever_7

I like beer commercials. Make them like one of those smart and fun beer commercial and I ll give it a thumb up. (Not the WHAAAAZZUP kind, but rather the new series of miller lite where the guy jump out of the 18 wheeler and took money "change" out of Beggar's hat)

I think Honda's fail to sell more cars to 25 and under simply because everyone at the age is driving an _old honda_ I don't see anything but the focus has market gain in the segment.

The thing about Cool VW commercial is that they have the euro snob appear to it that turn off some of the people. What I mean is that VW zealots are more annoying than Honda Zealots. VW zealot fans remind me alot of Mac gearheads (I use a Mac mind you) Please dont do the cliche and make fun of the stickers and huge exhurst tip like everyone else. It has some genuine youth appear to it. Remember when you were young you put stikers all over your roller blade? Don't remember? Okay forget it.

^^

diploid

Nope, don't remember the roller blade stickers. But I do remember sticking baseball cars to flap against the wheels on my bike and have it sound like a motorcycle.

But returning to the Element, yeah, after making fun of the XTerra commercial, I'd like to see how Honda is going to advertise this thing without becoming annoying like those Mitsubishi commercials, or downright comparos like the Kia commercials (I'd take a RAV4 over a Sportage any day, thank you).

shellymeister2

I believe the Elemnet will be a small hit despite its wierd looks & intended market- Why? Because I think buyers are savvy enough to realize that they can get a cool all wheel drive CRV EX variant(almost)fully equipped, for the price of an LX. If the price projections hold up, the top-of-the-line Element should retail about $21,000.

varmint

Shellymeister - I have doubts about that. Those numbers are Honda's "target" for the production version. In reality, I think we'll see the EX running $21,999, with added options for the MP3 upgraded stereo or NAV (another 1-2K depending on which option).

Regarding commercials, companies have any number of alternatives. Honda could go with more of the quirky ads we've seen with other cars. With the CR-V, they had the dog using the pass-through to get at the driver's drink. There was the three survivalists who meet back after three days of "roughing it". One had found a cute girl and lived it up using the creature comforts of her CR-V. With the Element, you have many obvious opportunities to play on its name...

The camera pans back from a video game, over the shoulders of the teens playing it, you see they're not in a living room... they're in their Element.

diploid

varmit- They did that with the Odyssey commercial. The mother is first shown watching a movie on the DVD screen, and we slowly see that she's in the minivan, waiting to pick up her daughter (and a friend) from a dance/ballerina recital.

ateixeira

I agree with varmint but in this case I imagine Honda will make the "Element" the beach, i.e. ads will be shot there or other places you need AWD to access. They'll show long boards popping up from that rear moonroof.

Surf's up, dudes.

Maybe another ad loading a mountain bike inside, I'm sure they'll show the folding seats and the tall interior.

What else? Snow boards, wind surfing?

-juice