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Now THAT'S unconventional!!
Bob
-juice
http://motioncars.com/autobuzz/articles20/honda_element.html
-mike
I disagree. The first thing the Element must do is to beat an Aztek off the lot. That's not exactly a high standard to reach.
But then how would they market it? Ditch the whole beach theme.
Aztek does zero to sixty in...wait, have they sold 60 yet? ;-)
-juice
Cars popular with the Gen X / Y crowd - like the Acura RSX, Subaru WRX, New Beetle, Jetta, Nissan Xterra - all have one thing in common - offer very good value for the money. This is why they sell. Also, they look halfway decent (O.K., the Subaru requires a specific type of taste but can fly!).
That is what sells to the younger generation
It's an SUV that actually has some of the U.
Utility. (Who would put a bag of mulch in an Escalade?) Today's SUV's are not SUV"s.
They're yuppie hawlers.
It's the first Honda that has a personality.
The only other Honda I would consider is an SI. But it's too expensive for what it offers.
If you want a high quality Japanese car with character, try a Subie. Who else is whacky enough to sell only boxer engines and AWD?
If you could drive several models back-to-back, blind-folded, odds are you couldn't pick a Honda from a Toyota, or even a Mazda or Nissan. But the Subie's unique boxer growl would stand out immediately.
Element may have character in its styling and function, but I doubt it'll drive like anything but your basic Honyotazdassan.
-juice
But park it next to an Acura and we've got a problem. Driving both blindfolded would be even harder.
We owned a 626 and I currently still own a Miata. The 626 had little/no character. The Miata has some only when the top is down, and even then the engine could be made by Honda or Nissan, you'd never know the difference.
For some, that's a good thing. But not me.
-juice
Well I personally don't know about the NSX (although I'm sure it does), the Integra Type-R has character if you use words such as "sound" and "feel" to define character.
Bringing the comparison back to a more relevant vehicle. Spread your arms out while seated up front. If you hit something, you're not in a Honda.
Bob
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/previews/previews_story.php?id=27578
-mike
The RSX Type R isn't offered here yet, but I'd like to see them bring it back.
varmint: a Toyota Celica? A Matrix XRS? Gotcha. ;-)
-juice
What the heck are you talking about????!!!!!! Enlighten me!
In terms of the other arm not hitting the side or top of the vehicle, there are plenty of SUVs / large vehicles (aka boats) that would suit you just fine. If it is reference to a Honda 2000 (convertible), any of the convertibles will do this! Heck, you probably could get away doing this in a Bugatti, which I believe the driver is centered in the middle of the vehicle!
-juice
Not that it's not a fantastic car. So is the S2000.
But soul, or character, isn't always a good thing. Lots of cars, Alfa Romeo Milanos come to mind immediately, have tons of character but finished the JD Power IQ survey dead last and took Alfa down in flames.
-juice
exaggeration - The act of exaggerating; the act of doing or representing in an excessive manner; a going beyond the bounds of truth reason, or justice; a hyperbolical representation; hyperbole; overstatement.
When speaking of character, I tend to think of characteristics that set a vehicle apart from most others. Recent Honda vehicles show a trend toward having lots of interior space (when compared to similar vehicles from the competition). The CR-V, Pilot, Ody, and Accord being most notable in this area. The Element certainly looks like it fits this trend. Juice has often used the word "L-I-M-O" to describe the back seat of the Element and CR-V.
This is not to say that other vehicles are all cramped. Honda does not have a monopoly on interior space. It's just that, right now, Honda seems to be the most consistent about it.
Some features on the CR-V do, like the dash-mounted column shifter, the hand brake that's part of the center console, and the picnic table, stuff like that. Honda designers just need to get some inspiration from their 2-wheeled counterparts.
The Element's rear roof opening is on the right track, so are suicide doors and two-tone paint.
Spice up the handling a bit (I'm sure the 25 year old target buyer would love 17" rims) and that would make the driving experience something to remember. That's really what I'm talking about.
My dad just wants to get from Point A to Point B efficiently. My 17 year old brother wants to have fun on the way, without necessarily having a destination in mind, even.
The goal is the complete opposite. Honda is great at pleasing my dad. Now try to please my lil' bro.
-juice
I think one of the tricks they use is to make the A-pillars as thin as can be, but without sacrificing crash protection, so you can have a more airy feel, thus making you feel as if the car is bigger than it really is. Also, the low cowl helps. And of course, the new Civics have the flat floor in the back. So even if the interior doesn't have as much volume as a Ford Focus, the level of comfort (especially for anyone sitting in the middle) makes the car appear larger.
I've always thought of James Brown.
Regardless, I thought we were talking about character. Not quite the same thing, though character could be considered a part of "soul". Also, character tends to be specific to a certain vehicle, not an entire product line. The VW Bug has character. So does the VW Eurovan. But it isn't a result of the same character traits.
The space I'm talking about isn't just in the back seat. That particular dimension just happens to be remarkable in the CR-V and Element.
Kevin - No problem. The way I dish it out, I'd better be able to take it.
-juice
The college hills Honda website is usually a second hand source of info. You can get Honda info/rumors more quickly at vtec.net (highly recommended), where they already have pics of the 03 Accord posted.
I'd like to suggest that you put an occasional carriage return into your posts - it would make it so much easier to read!
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
Enjoyed your comments; especially your interpretation of significance of some of the accessories, and your enthusiasm for the design.
The biggest piece of info for me was the 16" wheels, which suggests that the standard wheel size for Element will be 16" and not 15" as in CR-V.
Can you say your demographics?-)
When I see a post like that, I don't even bother to read it. It may be filled with great content, but's just too difficult to read. There are way too many easy to read posts, and to get bogged down on one that is a huge paragraph like that, is just not worth my time and effort.
Bob
tidester Jun 27, 2002 12:00am
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
If someone will clue me in on it, I'll do it next time I post another essay lol
I think you've just answered my question on demographics!-)
at 27.(and sorry I'm not up on all the computer geek-speak moonkat)
I was looking and hoping for the civic 5 door hatch or stream but since Honda has apparently lost trend setting attitude they had when they designed vehicles in the 80"s (hybrid technology aside).
I guess the element seems to fill most of the the items I was looking for in the stream/hatch (with the possible exception of the console).
I'm hoping I will like it when I sit in it. Otherwise I may break down and settle on something else even though I really hate to settle(too bad there's very little originality in interior design lately I guess these companies have reduced everything to formulas, demographics and focus groups rather than design flair).
I don't know if its me or what, but its pretty bad when you can afford a new car and just don't feel compelled to buy one since there's not one currently available that you like.
You may not technically be in the demographics, but you are the ideal Honda/Element customer...you are looking and you can afford it!-)
I agree with your interest in 5-door hatch, Stream, and I'd add the Fit/Jazz to that. All magically space & engine efficient. I've been continually posting my hope that Element would be based on Stream 106" chassis instead of 103" CR-V chassis, but that is unlikely based on comments from folks who have seen the Element in person. Besides that would probably give it an interior volume to rival the Pilot.
BTW; "carriage return" refers to the ancient mechanical device known as a "typewriter" which was used to imprint paper with characters. You had to manually return the "carriage" to begin a new line of typing hence "carriage return". In PC speak that would be an "Enter" or "Return" (<-)
Bob
Chris - You sound like the sort that should be buying the Matrix. Does it have too little space, or does the styling rub you the wrong way?
if the gear shifter were set up higher into the dash like on the SI .
Aside from the fact the stream/5door hatch are wagon/hatch body styles (I was originally looking for a 84-91 civic wagon when I ran across my 86 hatch back)
What really stood out to me was the shifter being located on the dash(albeit almost too low) I tries an SI and if honda hadn't placed the floor console in it I might have broke down and got a 5 speed
I've even tossed around the protegee 5 but I have neither driven it nor am I convinced of the reliability of a mazda
That's why I was so griped at the auto show about not getting to even sit in the element. I had begun to get excited about the matrix with its decent mpg wagon body and utility. and was let down when I finally got in it. and didn't want to wait now at least 5 months to even sit in the drivers seat of the element.
Honda I guess being burned by the original oddesey wont take a chance on another wagon"
Look at SI sales, (I called on an ad for $16995 and was told to add tax and title for my drive out cost) the civic stream /hatch are likely dead in the water unless we have a serious gas shortage again
If parts (and I'm sure insurance) weren't issues I'd import a stream or my favorite the step wagon.
but again apparently I'm the anti-demographic for every auto maker selling cars in the us. or else someone at the auto companies would act like they cared.
I would love for Honda to put the Si 5spd console shifter in the Element; that would be fun.
Verry interesting your interest in 84-91 Civic Wagon..very functional too. Step-wagon fan?!......you are the demographic!
yo varmint;
I read a report that new Accord 4 cyl motor from CR-V would be similar hp but tweaked for torque in new Accord. So why not for Element? 160 hp and 220 lbf torque...yeah thats the ticket..;-)
"Engines : 160hp 2.0 litre, 180 hp 2.4 litre, 250 hp 2.4 litre high output - all i-VTEC. Diesel 2.2L with 140 hp"
Also wish drivers and passengers seat belts were attached to seats like on some of the newer American ex cab trucks rather than the suicide doors.
and as for horsepower I got into an argument about how the element could be sold for 2 to 3 grand less than a base crv when the engine and drive train were the same
I had figured that honda was going to budge on a v6 on the crv either for 03 or 04 to warrant the elements price difference, but thought when the element turned up a bit plump that that solved the problem .
Now it looks like honda plans on using 2 things on separating the element from the crv now
-juice