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Comments
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
"The Fiat engine is just not as strong as the Alfa engine either."
The evolutions of the FIAT twin cam were still winning important (not vintage) races into the nineties. Not bad for a motor that first breathed life in the mid-sixties. The following link provides some insight into its...strength, as well as its longevity as a design:
http://velocetoday.com/cars/cars_120.php
And, these were not the ultimate iterations of the successful race cars powered by what is apparently an under-appreciated power plant. Check the Integrale ECV, which never used its 600bhp in anger due to a rule change.
RE: Wax-Oyl etc. My only concern with any kind of chemical is this stuff seeping out of dark corners after the car is painted.
Suggest you peruse Phil Ward's excellent book, FIAT and Lancia Twin Cams in which it is pointed out that the similarities between the production and race engines are more striking than are the differences, especially since, in the rally cars, the first engines used were basically stock FIAT, and later motors evolved therefrom. Later improvements, such as counter-rotating balance shafts, 16V heads, turbo and supercharging, were also seen in the production engines, due to homologation requirements. If the engines were solely "built to a price," the 1756 and 1995cc production motors would not have had both forged cranks and rods, the 2 liter cranks being Tuff-Trided. Not the cheapest way to build an engine.
Regarding the electrics, I have found only one basic design flaw in the 124 Sport, and that is that all the current for the headlamps is routed through the headlamp switch and hi-low switch. A relay cures the problem. Otherwise, if all connections are clean and tight, there are no further intrinsic problems, at least in my experience. The 131 and Brava tail-lamps and most circuits designed solely for the USA market are a different story, and I can offer no defense. Btw, I have no problem following FIAT's wiring schematics, which is a testament either to their grounding (no pun intended) in logic, or to a flaw in my thought processes...
I'll post my experience and methods using Boeshield. I hope Shifty's fears will not be realized, but I'll let you know if they are.
The proof is how the cars do on the street in the hands of ordinary people, and in that respect, Italian sports cars haven't done all that well in America for various reasons.
I drove MGBs and Alfas all over the country, and Fiats, too. Is this typical of the average driver? Don't think so.
So I don't think we can judge these cars based on them being in OUR hands.
As for Fiat electrics, I have had too many wires traced to....nowhere...to relax my guard. I think their grounding system on the 124 was BEE-Zarre to say the least.
I don't agree about the electrics on Italian cars. I think they are illogical and demonic. But sooner or later I did fix them all. Some of the color-coding is mighty strange.
As for Alfa in racing, there is no comparison with Fiat in worldwide competitive racing history after World War I. Fiat hasn't been a real player since the early 1900s.
This is probably why Alfa is so much more popular today in America than Fiat...the racing 'heritage'.
I'd love to have another 124 Coupe. I'm not afraid of these cars at all. But there's not a shop in 50 miles I'd trust to work on one. I'd have to do it all myself or truck it in.
Best repair shops for Italian cars in the SF Bay Area all seem to live in Berkeley/Oakland/Emeryville (East Bay).
but didn't Alfa source most of it's wiring, switches, relays, bulbs, alternators and such from the same outfit, Magnetti Marelli (Fiat subsidiary IIRC)?
On a side note wasn't the Fiat DOHC the first to use those accursed rubber timing belts?
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
"The first known timing belt was used in 1945.[5] The German Goggomobil microcar was the first mass produced vehicle to use a timing belt in 1950. The first American vehicle to use a timing belt was the 1966 Pontiac Tempest. The Vauxhall Slant Four was the first production overhead cam four cylinder design to use a timing belt, a configuration that is now used in the vast majority of cars built today."
Yeah I always had a devil of a time with electrics on my Aflas and Fiats. Not BIG stuff, just annoying. It seems like the grounds would just.....go away....and come back when they felt like it.
The 124 and Spider drove so much better than British cars of the time. You could tell you were in another time dimension.
Some of the endearing characteristics of Italian sports cars are still embedded in my mind:
One thing I remember was how when you went into first or reverse, the entire console would usually move with the gearshift.
On the PLUS side, the tops operated with one hand, as opposed to British cars, where a come-along would have been a good tool for clamping the top shut.
buy another car with one of those damn things again. I was probably swayed by the advertising UniRoyal or BF Goodrich was doing about how pioneering the Fiat's belt system was. :P
when you went into first or reverse, the entire console would usually move with the gearshift.
That sounds like something a British car would do but it has never happened to me with any car. Going from a Triumph to an Italian one made the Fiat's electrics seem pretty sturdy by comparison.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Alfas tended to get better care IMO.
I meant in no way to disparage the storied racing history of Alfa Romeo, nor the production cars, which I enjoy and admire. I was merely responding to the opinion that the FIAT twin cam is fragile, which I believe to be a canard. As for FIAT's involvement in international motor sport, it is true that they have not competed solely under the FIAT name since the early twentieth century, but the company has raced its products under noms de guerre from the fifties to the nineties. Abarth and Lancia have both been quite successful (the former drove the SCCA kind of nuts. In 1970 they put 2 liter Abarths in the same class as 427 Cobras!)in road racing and rallying. I already provided the link to a story about some of the FIAT-powered Lancias that raced in the '80s, and the FIAT name was used along with Abarth on many of the Abarths that raced late in the twentieth century.
But sure, SCCA, you can race anything you want I think.
I'm sure they are fun on the track!
I think Fiat motors in the hands of ordinary American drivers and under the tyranny of ordinary American mechanics, never did very well in this country. Certainly more the victim of neglect than inherent malfunctions.
Still they died left and right in this country. It was basically a massacre, for whatever reason.
I recall car mags of the period crediting the German Glas as being the first production car to use a timing belt.
I do love the whir of a timing chain when it is new and tight, but I don't miss the sound of a loose chain slapping the inside of the timing case, nor the chore of changing such a chain. Chain-driven cams do make for a prettier engine, though. I've never had a problem with a timing belt, but my dad's 128 sustained severe engine damage when its newly-installed (by the dealer, not by me!) belt failed, so I can appreciate your aversion to the Gilmer belt.
Okay, you were talking about international racing, and I think we can agree that ALL the cars involved had race motors. But you are in error when you aver that FIAT hasn't competed with its own factory teams since before WWII. Abarth was a de facto factory team until absorbed by FIAT when it became the acknowledged
FIAT racing team. The Lancias, which were road raced and rallied in the seventies, eighties, and early nineties were acknowledged as FIAT factory race cars. Yes, the Stratos, too, used an engine made by FIAT, the same one used in the Ferrari and FIAT Dinos.
Now, with respect to the road-going twin cams, it is again my experience that the engine is durable, and to use your expression, "right." Most problems with the cars did not relate to the engine, unless one is looking at USA-only emissions stuff. The egr systems were notorious...But the unburdened engines that were in USA-market cars from '68 through '73 were sweet and dependable. The things that did go wrong in significant number(distributor seals, exhaust flange gaskets, external oil leak from the right rear of the head gasket) were not serious, and probably would have been remedied earlier had the company not been scr*wing around with constantly-changing emissions requirements. To be fair, most mid-seventies cars were terrible because of this.
On further reflection, I have a dim memory (which may generally be the case...) that Glas was built by the company that was Goggomobil.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/A3LGNAS6QXD59W
Not sure I agree that they would easily best an MGB on the track, though, at least not a tight one. Not a lot of low end torque in a 124, but an MGB had lots of grunt.
It's too bad that article was illustrated w photos of the comparatively ugly and heavy big bumper car.
Now this is what a 124 Sport Spider should look like>
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
On this we can agree. When I was doing most of my autocrossing in the early '70s, I belonged to the MG Car Club because they were active in the sport, and there was no local FIAT club that was. They always set up tight courses and were the cars to beat. Oddly, an Opel Manta, with auto trans, belonging to another member was also very fast, mostly, I think, because all he had to do was hang on and steer. Suspension looked like a 124. One particularly masochistic member (who had a TC or TD, which I never saw) campaigned a late-sixties ex-police Dodge Coronet with no steering assist. He always finished the day with bleeding hands...
Stock for stock on a race course, I would have to agree with the Car Lust guy and R&T: the Spider would be faster. R&T did a comparison of cars that were eligible to run SCCA Showroom Stock the first year, and picked the Spider as the car to beat. As for SCCA Production classes, that club had a definite Anglophilic tilt then, and the rules were so skewed to favor the MGs and Triumphs, that it was pointless to go to the trouble and expense of preparing a car just to be a perpetual underdog. Drove a guy named Al Cosentino nuts. May have been a short drive, though...
LOL, here's a recent picture of Cosentino with his latest ride>
Here's a cool thread about old Fiats.
I wonder where I put my old F.A.Z.A catalogs :sick:
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I must say that I really did enjoy your discussion with Shifty regarding the relative merits of 60s-70s Fiats and Alfas. I have always admired both makes of that era, even though I have never owned one. It was most enlightening to read the opinions of two knowledgeable gearheads with direct experience.
james
I associate sixties sports cars with certain high points in my personal history, so I have a warm spot for Sunbeam Alpines and Datsun 2000s, as well as the FIATs that I so passionately defend. I don't think there are any cars of this genre that I don't like, although I realize there are qualitative differences among them.
I was driving my first car, a '58 Ford Fairlane on 6th Avenue in Tacoma, which was THE cruising street at the time, but since it was only about 4:00 PM in the early spring time, cruising had not seriously begun. My left front wheel cover decided to abandon barge, and took off down the street before describing a half circle and crossing the two oncoming lanes, ending up in the lot of the Big 6 gas station, directly across the street from where I had stopped. While I was trying to figure out how to navigate over there to retrieve the part, a dark blue Sunbeam Alpine made an easy and fast u-turn and stopped next to the cover. The driver's door opened, and a lovely brunette reached out and picked it up. I finally was able to make my turn and pull up next to her. After pretending to take off with my wandering piece of Ford, she gave me her phone number and invited me to tap on her window that night. The next few months (until graduation) were an adolescent's fantasy made real. How could I not love all things Alpine, especially when equipped as that one was?
A few years later, my then girlfriend (six-plus feet of hwp blondeness) and I were on our way to go skiing. She had a late-sixties Datsun 2000 (a surprisingly quick little car), which had two bald rear tires. After we made the turn onto the road that led, after five miles, to the ski area, we were forced to stop on an uphill surface that, if not ice, was at least polished snow. We became immobile, except for the spinning rear tires. Someone threw some sand in front of the tires and I started pushing. After the little car gained some momentum, rather than having her stop so I could get into the passenger seat, a maneuver that I believed would get us stuck again, I jumped up onto the trunk-lid mounted luggage rack, thinking that would help with traction, and rode the last four or so miles in that manner. Because I survived it, I viewed that as a great time.
Those experiences led me half-way to the transition from big American iron to those funny little foreign things. I would be interested in knowing how others came by their particular enthusiasms, and, if urged, would be willing to divulge what pushed me the rest of the way and keeps me there still.
I never even bothered with snow tires once I had switched my TR-4A to radial tires and I didn't bother with them on my Fiat 124 Spider either. Those cars did have one big drawback in bad conditions though, piss-poor wipers that couldn't deal with a rapid accumulation of heavy snow and of course the plastic backlights weren't heated.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Indeed, the starting procedure during cold weather for my Fiat Spider was thus:
-Pretend it is ordinary car, get in insert key put clutch in, shift to neutral.
-Listen to starter spin and engine almost but not quite catch, realize that choking will be neccesary.
-Pull out choke, turn key.
-Engine starts, attempt to put choke back in and realize that expansion of metal due to cold has caused choke butterfly to stick.
-Start car, engine fires. Crank heater up to full blast (such as it was).
-Open hood latch and get out of car (brrrrr!)
-Prop hood open.
-Undo three wing nuts holding air cleaner cover.
-Using finger prop frozen butterfly valve open.
-Replace air cleaner cover and wing nuts.
-Unprop hood and close.
-Get back in car, close door.
-Close choke
-Drive car.
What could you expect from a car made in a country where it never goes below freezing? :sick: Funny thing is if you followed the procedure it would start every time except for a 15 below morning in Killington. Waiting till after breakfast gave the battery enough time to thaw and fore the sucker.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Often I would take the battery into the house with me on cold days and haul it back out in the morning.
I got just one chance. If it caught and ran, fine. If it ran and stalled, that was it for the rest of the day. However, I could PUSH start it anytime I wanted. It liked that.
The heater was, of course British and therefore a joke. But after a while, heat from the exhaust and transmission got things pretty toasty in there---winter AND summer!
The Moss gearbox was a clunky one and quite ornery in the cold as well.
If we had only had all these synthetic lubricants my life back then would have been so much easier!
One thing I admire about the Italians is that they are not burdened with a foolish consistency. None of my Spiders had windshield wiper motors that would actually move the wipers over a dry windshield (not something I recommend, but a revealing test), while my 124 Coupe had a wiper motor that could, as Archimedes averred, move the Earth if given a suitable mounting point.
If it is cold out, say freezing, and the car hasn't been driven in a few weeks...I just leave the key in the 'on' position which runs the fuel pump and primes the FI for about 20 seconds...I might pump the gas a couple times if it is really cold (even though the manual tells you not to), and simply turn the key. 9 times out of 10, it will fire right up on the first turn of the key, and run without a problem.
For me, I think it's because I was a James Bond villain or some [non-permissible content removed] henchman in a past life. :P
Aw c'mon, there's no art to starting a fuel injected car. Insert key and turn...Geez
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Ah there was nothing like hearing that puny starter motor barely turning over the engine as I pulled the choke cable on my MGB completely out of its holder!!
My fintail Mercedes with dual carbs always started in the coldest of weather. The Germans took the fun out of driving old cars in winter in the 1960s.
But jumping from a British sports car into a 190SL was a revelation. While the 190SL was very tame and slow, it was so well built that an MG owner could hardly comprehend it. If only the 190SL had some kind of torquey motor, it would have been a formidable opponent. As it was, it was a pushover for most British sports cars. The 190SL gearshift was awful. In fact all Mercedes gearshifts were pretty clunky until the 280SL came out.
And those aren't so great either.
The injected Corvettes, too, were notorious for eating spark plugs, to the tune of a set every 3500 miles, or so.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Well so what? The "so what" is the cost of rebuilding a 4-cammer these days, or even finding anyone alive who can do it competently. It's very complex and will cost you probably $30,000--$40,000 dollars to get the job done.
Only to have to do it again in a painfully short number of miles vis a vis a plain bearing 356.
The Corvette fuel-injection (Rochester) was also mechanical but it had some serious faults, among them no way to adjust for temperature or barometric pressure. Tuning them was a PITA. They would also varnish up pretty fast if you didn't run them a lot, causing the need for complete disassembly.
The German system was also mechanical but pretty docile and bullet-proof. Too bad Chevrolet didn't just buy the rights to it (probably way too expensive to produce). Remember, Corvette back then was not an affluent man's car.
But Corvette did get one HP from each cubic inch using FI, so that's impressive.
I don't know about these ignition points you speak of however, I had the fintail converted to electronic ignition about 7 years ago :P ...I haven't laid a finger on it since. I hate adjusting points.
Nobody buys a Mercedes to row it yourself!
I was never fond of that either, although I got pretty good at it when I owned a Mazda RX-2. It had a 12A rotary-engine with 2 distributors and 3 sets of points that it would severely pit in short order.
The trick that I learned was to pull the distributors out of the engine and adjust the point gaps with the distributor clamped in a bench vice. Much easier than hanging over the engine bay with your neck twisted at an odd angle.
The distributor gear-drive used low-pitched gears, (large teeth), so proper orientation of the distributor, upon reassembly, was a snap.
Unfortunately, when I tried the same technique on my Rotary Pickup, I discovered that the 13B engine used a distributor drive with much finer teeth. Oops! :sick:
And speaking of hard starting, I remember the rotary engine occasionally starting cold on one rotor, and having to sit there for a few moments feathering the throttle until the second one kicked in.
james
A friend bought the car, did a fabulous rebuild, put on an B20E head and FI and an IPD cam and it was a much different (and better) car all around. We tackled the overdrive rebuild together and it was a very difficult job indeed. Not for rookies.
But he never did get the stock instrument gauges to work. They were AWFUL in the P 1800. I doubt there is one running today that can sport a full set of working factory gauges. So he built a special display with aftermarket gauges and that solved THAT problem.
Oh, and the "oil cooler" on that engine was laughably useless. It was about the size of a tin can lid and they put it on the SIDE of the engine, toward the back, not in front of the air stream.
-Spare distributor Cap & Rotor
-Set of Points and condenser (point guage in glove box)
-Set of four spark plugs.(gapping tool in glove box)
-Spare V-belt
-1 Pint Braking Fluid
-2qts 10W-30 Motor Oil
-Full set of box and socket Wrenches
-Phillips Head Screw Driver.
-Flat head screw driver.
-Jumper cables.
-Small oil can for squirting carb dash pots bi-weekly.
-Assorted pliers, electrical tape, bungee cords, wire connectors etc.
-Spare radiator hose.
-Three road flares.
-Normal items carried in trunk of all cars such as jack and spare tire.
Now you know why sports cars of that era generally had luggage racks, there was no room in the trunk for actual luggage. :shades:
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
In addition to a complete parts warehouse, I would carry a rain poncho, to wear INSIDE the car.
My most reliable 60s British sports car was my 71 MGB and most reliable sports car in general was my Porsche 911T but that was technically not a 60s sports car but a 1970 model. But they made the same basic car in 1969.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
reliable than SUs. My bro never had trouble w his but mine were constantly a bit out of sync.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93