The way some people drive around here, you would think Louisville changed from flat to hilly within their lifetime. Several people on the "beyond the suburbs" interstate this evening, probably more noticeable because it's only 2 lanes each direction and they were LLCing, would get down the hills at 75mph (65mph SL) to keep you behind them, and then get up the next hill at 55-60.
Few things are more annoying than a deadfoot driver, especially when they're LLCing.
So when the tailgater is a Fiat Abarth you continue to camp out?
Not a camper.
My example was for rush hour traffic on interstate with 3 lanes in each direction and I am in left lane and FOLLOWING a long line of cars in front of me. When dopes and inconsiderates, especially those with big suvs and jacked up pickups, camp out on my rear bumper, I will slot into the middle lane and let them get onto the bumper of the next vehicle in line in the left lane.
Out earlier today, the newbies and airheads were out in force. First - behind a late model Lexus LS in a parking lot. 4mph, would hit the brakes and signal at each aisle, but not pull in. After three aisles, I pulled into an aisle, and watched the Lexus begin to turn into a one way aisle, then stop, then kept creeping forward. Makes me wonder on many levels.
Then got behind someone I won't describe in an Odyssey. 20 in a 30, turned with no signal until the wheels turned, then drove with the drivers side wheels on the lane divider turtles. When I spotted a gap, I passed with my hand on the horn. Another one who shouldn't have a license. Then got behind a rental Corolla that floors it off the line, gets to just under the limit and dawdles along...then randomly slams on the brakes and turns left across three lanes, one of them being a designated turn lane - I am pretty sure only for the oncoming lane. No comment. Topped it off by approaching an intersection, I was in the turn lane, Acura TL was in the oncoming turn lane. Light is green, no oncoming traffic, I start to turn, Acura changes its mind and decides to go straight, I hit the brakes and horn at the same time. Moves like that are worthy of capital punishment. Oh, what a great diverse society and driving environment that would look at home in Shanghai. Our driving standards and other related issues are a race to the bottom to match globalization itself.
driving through building walls and windows again, this time a Camry driver pushing on the accelerator on accident thinking it was the brake. I couldn't help but notice the video on the TV news story showed a Toyota Camry, and it was a church building.
Also, the license plate had a handicap sticker on it. Licensing standards are too low obviously.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
snakeweasel: Back in the 70's when the speed limit was reduced to 55 mph there was a marked decrease in traffic fatalities.
The implementation of the national 55 mph speed limit had nothing to do with the drop in fatalities in 1974. The decline was caused by a drop in discretionary driving, which, in turn, had been spurred by the gasoline shortages in late 1973 and early 1974.
By February 1974, the fatality rate per 100 million miles driven had dropped slightly more than 3, down from 4.4 in October 1973. February 1974 was one month BEFORE the 55 mph speed limit was imposed by President Richard Nixon.
After the limit was imposed, the fatality rate ROSE over the next nine months 4, and by December 1974, was higher under the 55 mph speed limit than it had been in December 1973. What had happened? The end of the Arab Oil Embargo, which spurred the gasoline shortages in the first place, resulted in an increase in discretionary driving, which is when large numbers of fatal accidents occur.
Note that the fatality rate also dropped sharply in 2009, thanks to higher gasoline prices and the economic collapse of late 2008. Even the raw number of traffic fatalities by 2011 had reached its lowest point in 60 years. Yet, the speed limit in states either remained the same, or were increased. The fatality rate has continued to decline, even as people are driving slightly more.
snakeweasel: Those who supported higher speed limits said that the lower speed limits were not responsible for the lower fatality rates but rather safer designed roads and safer cars coming out on the roads. They were half right, it was safer roads and cars and lower limits.
No, they were completely correct. There is no consistent proof that lowering the speed limit on limited access highways results in lower fatality rates. This has been studied extensively.
snakeweasel: But my point is the same things you claimed reduced traffic fatalities in the 70's are at work keeping traffic fatalities where they are now. Over the last several years there has been a greater occurrence of seat belt usage and more and better safety devices in cars that have been credited in saving hundreds if not thousands of lives a year. But the reductions in highway fatalities don't reflect the numbers saved by increased safety in cars and also in road design.
The majority of states enacted mandatory safety belt laws in the 1980s. (The final state to enact a mandatory seat belt law was South Dakota. It took effect on January 1, 1995. Which means that it has been well over a decade since motorists have been required to wear safety belts in every state.)
It isn't just within the last few years that the majority of people have been using safety belts.
snakeweasel: Basic physics tells us that the faster a car goes the harder it is to control it, the longer it takes to stop it, the less maneuverable it becomes and the more force it has on impact.
That would be relevant if there existed a correlation between increased speeds on limited access highways and the likelihood that people will have an accident. But this has not been the case.
Now, if people are deliberately driving into bridge pillars, or telephone poles are jumping in front of unsuspecting motorists, we need to lower the speed limit to 10 mph. But, the last time I checked, this has not been happening.
xrunner2: I say mainly immature people/drivers want to excessively go over posted speed limits for their thrills. These people need to be taken off of the roads. They do not deserve the "privilege" of driving.
If there were proof that exceeding the posted limit on a limited access highway were dangerous, sure. But there isn't.
This past weekend we drove from Bedford, Pennsylvania to Harrisburg via the Pennsylvania Turnpike. The posted limit is 65 mph. Most people were driving at least 75 mph, and quite a few were hitting 85 mph. I guess everyone needs to be taken off the road? Or maybe the more intelligent approach is to realize that it's not 1949 anymore, and driving 80 mph doesn't make one death on wheels.
Lots of people drank during Prohibition, too. Which proves that dumb laws ultimately get the respect that they deserve. Which is none.
This morning got behind a middle aged woman in a late model Chrysler minivan. Going a few under the limit and keeping a huge following distance from the car in front of her, which was light years away and I suspect moving faster. We both get into a left turn lane, and turn onto a 4 lane road. She veers into the right lane, I stay in the left and go around, suddenly she wants to go 40 in a 30. I get around her, slow to 35 (faster than she'd ever moved thus far), and she moves around and passes me! Then I see a crowd forming ahead for people turning, so I get back in the left lane and get around her and the turners. So she's behind me again, she catches up and follows close. I then go about 20 in a 30 (we are the only cars on the street),and I eye the light sequencing...at an upcoming major intersection, I scrape by under yellow and she stops, and is then lost in the long sequence. Too bad for her.
Shortly after I am driving on a downtown street with parking areas that go to the corner - not turn lane. I am 3 cars back at a light, waiting to turn right, signal on. Clapped out old Durango with ugly big (and likely Chinese made) wheels veers right and drives down the parking area to make a turn. I then am behind the simp as he slowly turns into a parking lot. Horn got some use there. Perfect car for the clueless. Everything that's wrong with America, in vehicle form.
On a double yellow 55 mph 2-lane road in my area with dips, curves and crests, encountered a woman driver in a curve going in other direction holding apparently a cell phone to her head.
I came up on a three-way stop (T-intersection) yesterday. The person to my left was the first driver to the intersection by 2-3 seconds. My driver pulls up to the intersection, waits for the other driver to go (which she doesn't do), so he decides to take the go after a couple seconds. He starts moving into the intersection just before she guns it into the intersection, gives him a scowl, and lifts her cell phone from the steering column to her ear. :sick:
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
Drove south on 405/5 today, back up on 167/405. Lots of LLCs, only one bad incident, in Renton - both crowded northbound lanes pretty much had to lock it up, mostly because an old man in a burgundy late 90s Buick came across construction while coming out of a blind curve, and slammed on the brakes - even though the work was well off the shoulder, and no lower limit signs posted. Also got behind a white "skilled tradesman's" van that would tap the brakes like clockwork every 15-20 seconds - I had to undertake it, was driving me insane.
mostly because an old man in a burgundy late 90s Buick came across construction while coming out of a blind curve, and slammed on the brakes -
Must be something about the "sleepless" situation in your state. The seasoned citizens that I see generally are very considerate. It is usually dopes of the generation much younger than them that are the inconsiderates. On cell phones, intimidators tailgating. Never see old people intimidating. Very rarely see seasoned citizen driving and on cell phones. See seasoned people on an interstate near a retirement area and they are always considerate.
Oh, he wasn't inconsiderate per se, just overreacted and created some chaos because of it. Oh, also made a lane change and had the signal on for about a mile. You are right that the older set aren't the ones who yap or tailgate.
It also fueled the rise of the Mafia, which made a fortune on bootleg booze, and generated disrepect for all laws. And it did not eliminate all drinking, which was the original goal. Otherwise, all of those speakeasies wouldn't have been in business.
Here's the best quote in the report:
Voters who considered their own drinking habits blameless, but who supported prohibition to discipline others, also received a rude shock. That shock came with the realization that federal prohibition went much farther in the direction of banning personal consumption than all local prohibition ordinances and many state prohibition statutes. National Prohibition turned out to be quite a different beast than its local and state cousins.
Kind of like those people who wail about "speeders" and then complain when they get caught driving 80 mph on the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Well, that is why some of us question too-low speed limits and draconian enforcement.
You can't have Prohibition for some adults, and not others, just as you can't have speed limits for some people, and not others.
... "just as you can't have speed limits for some people, and not others...."
Some parts of the European autobahn are real world examples of how they can easily co exist. So for example, every body has at one time or another heard the law "KEEP RIGHT EXCEPT TO PASS" Slower traffic keep right. Tractor trailers and for example 45 passenger tour busses have 55 mph limits and they have on board monitors to in effect enforce that. There are cars that can easily pass them @ 100+ mph.
My post was directed at those who wail about "speeders" while they, themselves, exceed the speed limit on a regular basis. And then they complain if they get caught. Speed limits are apparently for everyone else.
Traffic laws and economic policy are two entirely different things. Judging by recent events in France, Greece, Spain and Italy, economic policy does not appear to be a European strong point.
Once you leave Germany, you find that the rest of western Europe has speed limits. Enforcement in Great Britain, for example, is draconian by American standards.
I would argue that, in many areas of the United States, it's easier to drive 80-90 mph than it is in virtually all of Europe outside of Germany.
Showed up at 9:15 a.m., procrastinated a lot and was cramming for my defense and cross examination at the last minute, so I didn't mind waiting and arriving early.
At about 9:35 they open the courtroom up, bailiff takes roll call, and we all sit until about 10:10 a.m. After the 40 minute delay, they ask us to all rise, and the judge (female) steps into the court. The court thinks they are getting their pound of flesh out with time wastage, but I'm loving it as I'm getting more minutes to do my last minute preperation and "radar error" research reading, educating myself with the time going by.
I didn't see any La Mesa PD motorcycles in the parking lot (good sign). There were a bunch of CHP bikes, and one SD PD bike. No uniformed La Mesa PD officers in court; another good sign, but one guy walking in just after the doors opened worried me a lot, as he was young and in a nice business suit (potentially my cop?)
They call one case and the person isn't present. They call my name 2nd, I stand up, say here, and the judge says the officer isn't present, case dismissed, go to the bail room.
I go to the bail room, 10 minutes later the clerk calls me up, says my case has been dismissed, that I'll receive my refund ($360) in 4 to 6 weeks. La Mesa PD and the City of La Mesa -- PAY UP!!! GIVE ME MY MONEY BACK!!! BOOOYAH!
I tell the clerk I'd like to see the officer's testimony from the trial by declaration/mail that I was found guilty in. She looks at me puzzled, and says my case has been dismissed. I tell her that my case was a Trial De Novo for a trial by declaration where I was originally found guilty, and for my own personal knowledge, I'd like to read the officer's testimony/letter that resulted in me being found guilty (she looks at me crazy) says "your case is dismissed and you'll have to pay if you want copies." I calmly state I don't need copies, just a couple minutes to review his letter and read it right here. She reluctantly hands me the paperwork, I find it quickly and read it as fast as I can as she just stands there waiting for me to finish.
The officer used general arguments that didn't really apply to my case in his declaration. He made subjective statements which would and cold really be seen as false statements. Things like 35 MPH is the speed limit for optimum conditions, that at the time of the citation (10:20 a.m weekday NON RUSH HOUR) there's lots of people entering and exiting the driveways alongside the roadway, frequent bicyclists and pedestrians (bold lies). The thing is he didn't completely perjur himself because he made these statements subjectively and generally, he did later on in his letter admit when taking his radar reading I was the only moving object around (benefits doubt about radar to admit that). Therefore, he stopped short of stating there were any bicycles or pedestrians applicable to my case. Maybe he was trying to justify his enforcement efforts???
I'd like to think justice was served and that the officer was a coward who wouldn't dare defend his false allegations in a court of law. However, the truth is because I had the county seat as my venue, and the La Mesa PD normally goes to the East County Courthouse, he didn't show. Reason being that it wasn't financially beneficial to the city for him to show. He already wasted time re-writing the ticket 2 times (due to his own errors), and wasted time writing a prosecution letter in my trial by mail, he wasn't going to show up outside of his home court. The courts are clever, they schedule a La Mesa PD day at the court, and all traffic cases are heard on the exact same day every week (could be Wednesday, for example). Do you think he's going to pass up time to "kick it" with his buddies and colleagues at El Cajon, where he might have 2 or 3 trials conveniently scheduled back to back to back, or go to Kearny Mesa to handle one case he know he has to lie about to win? The financial reasoning behind traffic enforcement dictated he wouldn't show up today, and I was proven right. There's more money in it for him to show up at his regular courthouse only.
The justice of this case makes me feel better about not fighting the CHP speeding case earlier this year and just paying the fine and going to traffic school on that one. I had a good case this time and made a good judgement call.
My best judgment call was to not accept the court's offer to bribe me into accepting a guilty verdict by allowing me to go to traffic school for an extra $55 even though there's a rule you can't do traffic school within 18 months of your last session. They were willing to bend the rules on that in order to get my $360 + $55. I didn't take the deal; I doubled down and went all-in!
Take that La Mesa PD.
Tickets on Lake Murray Blvd = 2 Convictions = 0
Undefeated, 2-0 record; taking all challengers and newcomers; bring it! Bring it La Mesa! You only have until 2014 to use that almost 10 year old traffic and engineering survey where the 85th percentile was 41 MPH, but you still set limit at 35? I bet the next survey comes out to 45 MPH or more at 85th percentile, and if the limit were set to 45, I might actually obey it! 35 makes me laugh and I ignore it.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Ha, and at the same time, judging by events in the USA over the past decade, or the awesome socio-economic devolution over the past ~30 years, economic policy might not be an American strength either.
Britain is really an island unto itself - Orwellian nanny state with a populace who should have pulled a France 1789 against their leaders some years ago.. And it still has less LLCs and wannabe traffic deputy scaredy cats, and greater licensing standards.
The only reason it is easier to drive those speeds in the US is low population density creating less revenue enforcers to speedtrap. Nothing else to it. The US is not a place for skilled driving. Find someone who is visiting from developed Europe, and see what they think of traffic here. The one quote I remember most was "slow motion".
Ah you are describing that universal thought process phenomena: " Everything I do is directed from God. IF someone else does EXACTLY the same thing, not sanctioned by me or God, it comes from the devil incarnate? "
I fancied posting some thoughts, but keystonecarfan preempted me with excellent posts which I can't help but enjoying.
Just something to add. On Speed Limits: We have to realize that speed limits exist to regulate us, average drivers. Those aggressive violators (extreme speeders/tailgaters threatening others) do it now and will do the same anyway, limits be damned; they are violators after all. So, we have to decide what speed limit we would like for ourselves. In the absence of very aggressive enforcement, the traffic spontaneously flows at a most reasonable speed for circumstances (Re: 85 percentile?), no matter the posted limits, whether we want it or not. I often drive on the Pennsylvania Turnpike too (posted limits are 55 and 65), and can confirm that just about everybody drives at 75-85 mph there. I mostly drive in and around big cities, and when I say that my speed is typically 15-20 over the limit, that is not to brag that I am the fastest driver on the road. Just the contrary: I go with the flow (that is what every competent driver must do); that is just that the normal flow is well above the posted limits except for some residential streets. Of course, one cannot deny basic physics. If there is a crash, 65 is safer than 85, 45 is safer than 65, 25 is safer than 45, and 10 is safer than 25. So, where do we stop? There is a precedent: in 1865 in Great Britain, “a man with a red flag and a horn had to walk in front of any vehicle as it was driven”. Should we go for it? More realistically, it was proven that collisions below about 25 mph are almost never fatal, whereas above about 65 mph they are fatal almost always (well, in the absence of air bags, and maybe seatbelts). So, maybe we could adopt 25 as the default speed limit, and also decree that no commercial transportation may ever exceed 65, including commercial aviation. And, for that matter, fly not higher than about 120 feet (from v^2 = 2gh equation). Also, because risks are certainly higher than when skiing or trail biking, all car and plane passengers and pedestrians must wear helmets. This all only makes perfect sense from the viewpoint of basic physics, but also makes the society a mental hospital.
On Prohibition:
I also read this article; thanks, Steve, for the link. It does not, actually, assert that “the ban on alcohol resulted in people tempering their drinking habits forever after”, however, mildly suggests such interpretation in one place. There are some problems with this, besides the rise of Mafia: 1. “Correlation is not causation” fallacy. 2. Why then 13 years of Prohibition resulted in such profound changes that were never reverted in the following 80 years of “permissiveness”? 3. The data are simply not there. The moonshine activities and consumption are impossible to estimate credibly. The article mentions also Russia and USSR – the country notorious for home distilling by virtually every family, far outpacing any shortages of “legal” booze. Add to the unintended consequences a lot of moonshine poisoning.
While we can get political about this, the facts of the matter are the concept and the law are already in place. The only things lacking are the authorities will, and to enforce (the procedures) it. Indeed the defacto lack of enforcement in the US is really socialist and implements a hell hole, etc. I say the answers are pretty easy and straightforward: enforce them !
don't count on that. Officer's in my experience tend to show up when they have a bullet proof case (at least by traffic court standards) which are nowhere near a real courtroom's standards. You can always get "lucky," but there are things you can do to increase your chances.
There were plenty of CHP bikes in the parking lot, perhaps city departments dont' pay overtime, but the CHP must pay double time based on my experience.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
LOL ! In the municipal employee's salary issue, published in the local rag, it is a question of almost all of them making 6 figures !! Defacto: it is a rare one that does not. :sick:
The other scam is since someone that makes 100,000 to 400,000 dollars pays normally the highest tax rates , a lot of cops try to do "the hurt my back on the job procedure". What that does when they successfull scam the system is makes the salary almost tax free.
A while back they caught a champion ship water skier while competing. Incidently he won a very competitve water skiing championship event.
The slight glitch was he was a "CHP Officer" taken off duty with full pay and benefits and almost tax free status disabled on the job: extreme BACK problems.
It reminds me of that Eddy Murphy schtick in Trading Places where he pretends he has no legs begging for money. Two officers go by and lift him up exposing his legs. All the while Murphy is shouting A MIRACLE, Lord Jesus A MIRACLE.
My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. :shades:
Consumer affairs shows locally examine the data and always find some , esp in Seattle, who make that with OT. And then the hard to fire issues.
He's a car guy, probably more than I am, and given what he drives I can say with 100% certainty that he does *not* make six figures, overtime included.
fintail: Ha, and at the same time, judging by events in the USA over the past decade, or the awesome socio-economic devolution over the past ~30 years, economic policy might not be an American strength either.
Real income in all brackets has increased in the United States over the past 30 years, and manufacturing as a percentage of gross domestic product has remained consistent over the past 40 years, when the figures are adjusted for inflation.
Since 2002, our manufacturing output has INCREASED by 30 percent. What has declined is manufacturing employment, but that is thanks to new production processes and automation, not outsourcing. We still make plenty of things in this country, and it is of higher quality and a better price than ever.
Europe isn't the perfect socialist paradise its supporters make it out to be, but it's not an overregulated hell on earth, either. (Also note that, when it comes to rules and regulations and attitudes towards both, there are considerable differences among European countries). The United States is also considerably more complex than its supporters and detractors make it out to be.
fintail: The only reason it is easier to drive those speeds in the US is low population density creating less revenue enforcers to speedtrap. Nothing else to it.
You can drive that fast on sections of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, I-81 or I-95 in several areas, and the areas surrounding those highways are as built up as the rural areas surrounding the German Autobahn.
fintail: The US is not a place for skilled driving. Find someone who is visiting from developed Europe, and see what they think of traffic here. The one quote I remember most was "slow motion".
They must not get out much in Europe. Once you leave Germany, the traffic isn't faster in places such as Italy or France than it is in most of the United States. The one place it is faster is in the cities...and that IS because of recklessness. I was more cautious as a pedestrian and more concerned as a passenger in Turin than I ever have ever been in Philadelphia, New York City or Washington, D.C.
In visiting a 3rd world country like Bolivia, I did notice that traffic was a bit more reckless and plain "crazy" in the city. They don't really pay attention to rules, laws, or signals/signs/lights.
However, at least they are PAYING attention, and just trying to get to where they are going faster. It may be inconsiderate, but I find an attentive inconsiderate driver more likeable than a clueless inattentive unaware incompetent American driver.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The entire quote was " I agree with other historians who have argued that this belief is false: Prohibition did work in lowering per capita consumption." And the author goes on to back up his argument (but many people drank beer back in the day because it was safer than the water).
Lots of people disagree of course, just as people disagree in here over what the speed limit should be. Interesting stuff (especially for me, having grown up in a dry state in the 50s and visiting bootleggers with my dad).
You could probably eliminate illegal drug use by simply executing everyone caught using it or selling it on the spot, but I doubt that even the most hardcore conservative would support that approach.
At some point, you have to ask whether the enforcement efforts, and resulting consequences, are worth the result.
Real income? I suppose if you don't pay attention to the costs of housing, energy, medical, education, etc. Or is that some kind of deceptive household income stat? The US now has the greatest socio-economic gap since before the depression, and a much greater one than can be seen in other first world nations.
Manufacturing is a tangent.
You can drive that fast almost anywhere - even on surface streets, what kind of ticket will it earn in you in PA? I am pretty sure the authorities don't tolerate 80-90 in that leader of free world amenities and driving fun.
Enforcement is all about revenue, and job security for the enforcers and related administration.
I don't know if Italy can be called "developed Europe"
You can drive that fast almost anywhere - ... what kind of ticket will it earn in you in PA? I am pretty sure the authorities don't tolerate 80-90
I do drive like that daily in PA, like most other people do, including on some roads within Pittsburgh. I saw the same on the East Coast (NY et al.) I was never pulled over for anything in this country. My wife, though, got a ticket for something in 40 mph zone once, but went to court, said she doesn't want to feel bad, and the ticket was cancelled (yes, the she-cop who fined her was present at the hearing). Enforcement, when exists, may be about revenue, but it is very patchy here. I don't believe the fines they collect even cover the price of cruisers' fuel. The speed limits and stop signs, it seems, are more to avoid litigation than they are to collect fines. Also, I see most cops as very reasonable. If they are not on an explicit mission of speed enforcement, they easily let you get away with up to 80 mph (or about 120 km/h in Europe and South America) as long as you are driving safely. (Sorry for the heresy!)
So PA is like the autobahn of the eastern seaboard, sounds good! Around here, 80 would probably get a $300+ ticket, a lecture from a revenue enforcer, or worse. However, my area may be atypical to the rest of the world. Slow and oblivious.
80-ish is a common limit in European countries surrounding Germany, too - but is virtually unknown here.
I recall in the period of the 55 speed limit, PA had huge billboards at the border listing the fines for speed violations starting at 56 mph. And they put their cars on the turnpike in nicely hidden locations so frequent fliers on the road might know where to expect their hidden radar but out-of-staters would be more likely to speed into the trap.
Comments
There was an inconsiderate black bear in someone's rural driveway. After I did a U-turn, I realized it was fake.
And yes, as it happens I was driving to my eye doc today. :P
Few things are more annoying than a deadfoot driver, especially when they're LLCing.
That's the truth. Morons all...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Not a camper.
My example was for rush hour traffic on interstate with 3 lanes in each direction and I am in left lane and FOLLOWING a long line of cars in front of me. When dopes and inconsiderates, especially those with big suvs and jacked up pickups, camp out on my rear bumper, I will slot into the middle lane and let them get onto the bumper of the next vehicle in line in the left lane.
Then got behind someone I won't describe in an Odyssey. 20 in a 30, turned with no signal until the wheels turned, then drove with the drivers side wheels on the lane divider turtles. When I spotted a gap, I passed with my hand on the horn. Another one who shouldn't have a license. Then got behind a rental Corolla that floors it off the line, gets to just under the limit and dawdles along...then randomly slams on the brakes and turns left across three lanes, one of them being a designated turn lane - I am pretty sure only for the oncoming lane. No comment. Topped it off by approaching an intersection, I was in the turn lane, Acura TL was in the oncoming turn lane. Light is green, no oncoming traffic, I start to turn, Acura changes its mind and decides to go straight, I hit the brakes and horn at the same time. Moves like that are worthy of capital punishment. Oh, what a great diverse society and driving environment that would look at home in Shanghai. Our driving standards and other related issues are a race to the bottom to match globalization itself.
Also, the license plate had a handicap sticker on it. Licensing standards are too low obviously.
The implementation of the national 55 mph speed limit had nothing to do with the drop in fatalities in 1974. The decline was caused by a drop in discretionary driving, which, in turn, had been spurred by the gasoline shortages in late 1973 and early 1974.
By February 1974, the fatality rate per 100 million miles driven had dropped slightly more than 3, down from 4.4 in October 1973. February 1974 was one month BEFORE the 55 mph speed limit was imposed by President Richard Nixon.
After the limit was imposed, the fatality rate ROSE over the next nine months 4, and by December 1974, was higher under the 55 mph speed limit than it had been in December 1973. What had happened? The end of the Arab Oil Embargo, which spurred the gasoline shortages in the first place, resulted in an increase in discretionary driving, which is when large numbers of fatal accidents occur.
Note that the fatality rate also dropped sharply in 2009, thanks to higher gasoline prices and the economic collapse of late 2008. Even the raw number of traffic fatalities by 2011 had reached its lowest point in 60 years. Yet, the speed limit in states either remained the same, or were increased. The fatality rate has continued to decline, even as people are driving slightly more.
snakeweasel: Those who supported higher speed limits said that the lower speed limits were not responsible for the lower fatality rates but rather safer designed roads and safer cars coming out on the roads. They were half right, it was safer roads and cars and lower limits.
No, they were completely correct. There is no consistent proof that lowering the speed limit on limited access highways results in lower fatality rates. This has been studied extensively.
snakeweasel: But my point is the same things you claimed reduced traffic fatalities in the 70's are at work keeping traffic fatalities where they are now. Over the last several years there has been a greater occurrence of seat belt usage and more and better safety devices in cars that have been credited in saving hundreds if not thousands of lives a year. But the reductions in highway fatalities don't reflect the numbers saved by increased safety in cars and also in road design.
The majority of states enacted mandatory safety belt laws in the 1980s. (The final state to enact a mandatory seat belt law was South Dakota. It took effect on January 1, 1995. Which means that it has been well over a decade since motorists have been required to wear safety belts in every state.)
It isn't just within the last few years that the majority of people have been using safety belts.
snakeweasel: Basic physics tells us that the faster a car goes the harder it is to control it, the longer it takes to stop it, the less maneuverable it becomes and the more force it has on impact.
That would be relevant if there existed a correlation between increased speeds on limited access highways and the likelihood that people will have an accident. But this has not been the case.
Now, if people are deliberately driving into bridge pillars, or telephone poles are jumping in front of unsuspecting motorists, we need to lower the speed limit to 10 mph. But, the last time I checked, this has not been happening.
If there were proof that exceeding the posted limit on a limited access highway were dangerous, sure. But there isn't.
This past weekend we drove from Bedford, Pennsylvania to Harrisburg via the Pennsylvania Turnpike. The posted limit is 65 mph. Most people were driving at least 75 mph, and quite a few were hitting 85 mph. I guess everyone needs to be taken off the road? Or maybe the more intelligent approach is to realize that it's not 1949 anymore, and driving 80 mph doesn't make one death on wheels.
Lots of people drank during Prohibition, too. Which proves that dumb laws ultimately get the respect that they deserve. Which is none.
There's a surprisingly contentious debate about the effects of Prohibition (just like traffic laws, lol). Did Prohibition Really Work? (NCBI)
Shortly after I am driving on a downtown street with parking areas that go to the corner - not turn lane. I am 3 cars back at a light, waiting to turn right, signal on. Clapped out old Durango with ugly big (and likely Chinese made) wheels veers right and drives down the parking area to make a turn. I then am behind the simp as he slowly turns into a parking lot. Horn got some use there. Perfect car for the clueless. Everything that's wrong with America, in vehicle form.
I really need to get that gopro on my dashboard.
I came up on a three-way stop (T-intersection) yesterday. The person to my left was the first driver to the intersection by 2-3 seconds. My driver pulls up to the intersection, waits for the other driver to go (which she doesn't do), so he decides to take the go after a couple seconds. He starts moving into the intersection just before she guns it into the intersection, gives him a scowl, and lifts her cell phone from the steering column to her ear. :sick:
Must be something about the "sleepless" situation in your state. The seasoned citizens that I see generally are very considerate. It is usually dopes of the generation much younger than them that are the inconsiderates. On cell phones, intimidators tailgating. Never see old people intimidating. Very rarely see seasoned citizen driving and on cell phones. See seasoned people on an interstate near a retirement area and they are always considerate.
Here's the best quote in the report:
Voters who considered their own drinking habits blameless, but who supported prohibition to discipline others, also received a rude shock. That shock came with the realization that federal prohibition went much farther in the direction of banning personal consumption than all local prohibition ordinances and many state prohibition statutes. National Prohibition turned out to be quite a different beast than its local and state cousins.
Kind of like those people who wail about "speeders" and then complain when they get caught driving 80 mph on the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Well, that is why some of us question too-low speed limits and draconian enforcement.
You can't have Prohibition for some adults, and not others, just as you can't have speed limits for some people, and not others.
Good thing I saw it before he did, and made room for him.
Look ahead folks. Far ahead.
Some parts of the European autobahn are real world examples of how they can easily co exist. So for example, every body has at one time or another heard the law "KEEP RIGHT EXCEPT TO PASS" Slower traffic keep right. Tractor trailers and for example 45 passenger tour busses have 55 mph limits and they have on board monitors to in effect enforce that. There are cars that can easily pass them @ 100+ mph.
Once you leave Germany, you find that the rest of western Europe has speed limits. Enforcement in Great Britain, for example, is draconian by American standards.
I would argue that, in many areas of the United States, it's easier to drive 80-90 mph than it is in virtually all of Europe outside of Germany.
Showed up at 9:15 a.m., procrastinated a lot and was cramming for my defense and cross examination at the last minute, so I didn't mind waiting and arriving early.
At about 9:35 they open the courtroom up, bailiff takes roll call, and we all sit until about 10:10 a.m. After the 40 minute delay, they ask us to all rise, and the judge (female) steps into the court. The court thinks they are getting their pound of flesh out with time wastage, but I'm loving it as I'm getting more minutes to do my last minute preperation and "radar error" research reading, educating myself with the time going by.
I didn't see any La Mesa PD motorcycles in the parking lot (good sign). There were a bunch of CHP bikes, and one SD PD bike. No uniformed La Mesa PD officers in court; another good sign, but one guy walking in just after the doors opened worried me a lot, as he was young and in a nice business suit (potentially my cop?)
They call one case and the person isn't present. They call my name 2nd, I stand up, say here, and the judge says the officer isn't present, case dismissed, go to the bail room.
I go to the bail room, 10 minutes later the clerk calls me up, says my case has been dismissed, that I'll receive my refund ($360) in 4 to 6 weeks. La Mesa PD and the City of La Mesa -- PAY UP!!! GIVE ME MY MONEY BACK!!! BOOOYAH!
I tell the clerk I'd like to see the officer's testimony from the trial by declaration/mail that I was found guilty in. She looks at me puzzled, and says my case has been dismissed. I tell her that my case was a Trial De Novo for a trial by declaration where I was originally found guilty, and for my own personal knowledge, I'd like to read the officer's testimony/letter that resulted in me being found guilty (she looks at me crazy) says "your case is dismissed and you'll have to pay if you want copies." I calmly state I don't need copies, just a couple minutes to review his letter and read it right here. She reluctantly hands me the paperwork, I find it quickly and read it as fast as I can as she just stands there waiting for me to finish.
The officer used general arguments that didn't really apply to my case in his declaration. He made subjective statements which would and cold really be seen as false statements. Things like 35 MPH is the speed limit for optimum conditions, that at the time of the citation (10:20 a.m weekday NON RUSH HOUR) there's lots of people entering and exiting the driveways alongside the roadway, frequent bicyclists and pedestrians (bold lies). The thing is he didn't completely perjur himself because he made these statements subjectively and generally, he did later on in his letter admit when taking his radar reading I was the only moving object around (benefits doubt about radar to admit that). Therefore, he stopped short of stating there were any bicycles or pedestrians applicable to my case. Maybe he was trying to justify his enforcement efforts???
I'd like to think justice was served and that the officer was a coward who wouldn't dare defend his false allegations in a court of law. However, the truth is because I had the county seat as my venue, and the La Mesa PD normally goes to the East County Courthouse, he didn't show. Reason being that it wasn't financially beneficial to the city for him to show. He already wasted time re-writing the ticket 2 times (due to his own errors), and wasted time writing a prosecution letter in my trial by mail, he wasn't going to show up outside of his home court. The courts are clever, they schedule a La Mesa PD day at the court, and all traffic cases are heard on the exact same day every week (could be Wednesday, for example). Do you think he's going to pass up time to "kick it" with his buddies and colleagues at El Cajon, where he might have 2 or 3 trials conveniently scheduled back to back to back, or go to Kearny Mesa to handle one case he know he has to lie about to win? The financial reasoning behind traffic enforcement dictated he wouldn't show up today, and I was proven right. There's more money in it for him to show up at his regular courthouse only.
The justice of this case makes me feel better about not fighting the CHP speeding case earlier this year and just paying the fine and going to traffic school on that one. I had a good case this time and made a good judgement call.
My best judgment call was to not accept the court's offer to bribe me into accepting a guilty verdict by allowing me to go to traffic school for an extra $55 even though there's a rule you can't do traffic school within 18 months of your last session. They were willing to bend the rules on that in order to get my $360 + $55. I didn't take the deal; I doubled down and went all-in!
Take that La Mesa PD.
Tickets on Lake Murray Blvd = 2
Convictions = 0
Undefeated, 2-0 record; taking all challengers and newcomers; bring it! Bring it La Mesa! You only have until 2014 to use that almost 10 year old traffic and engineering survey where the 85th percentile was 41 MPH, but you still set limit at 35? I bet the next survey comes out to 45 MPH or more at 85th percentile, and if the limit were set to 45, I might actually obey it! 35 makes me laugh and I ignore it.
Britain is really an island unto itself - Orwellian nanny state with a populace who should have pulled a France 1789 against their leaders some years ago.. And it still has less LLCs and wannabe traffic deputy scaredy cats, and greater licensing standards.
The only reason it is easier to drive those speeds in the US is low population density creating less revenue enforcers to speedtrap. Nothing else to it. The US is not a place for skilled driving. Find someone who is visiting from developed Europe, and see what they think of traffic here. The one quote I remember most was "slow motion".
I've had cops no-show twice, once for my wife as well.
Around here they used to get overtime for court appearances, now they don't, so a lot of them just don't show.
Just something to add. On Speed Limits:
We have to realize that speed limits exist to regulate us, average drivers. Those aggressive violators (extreme speeders/tailgaters threatening others) do it now and will do the same anyway, limits be damned; they are violators after all. So, we have to decide what speed limit we would like for ourselves.
In the absence of very aggressive enforcement, the traffic spontaneously flows at a most reasonable speed for circumstances (Re: 85 percentile?), no matter the posted limits, whether we want it or not. I often drive on the Pennsylvania Turnpike too (posted limits are 55 and 65), and can confirm that just about everybody drives at 75-85 mph there. I mostly drive in and around big cities, and when I say that my speed is typically 15-20 over the limit, that is not to brag that I am the fastest driver on the road. Just the contrary: I go with the flow (that is what every competent driver must do); that is just that the normal flow is well above the posted limits except for some residential streets.
Of course, one cannot deny basic physics. If there is a crash, 65 is safer than 85, 45 is safer than 65, 25 is safer than 45, and 10 is safer than 25. So, where do we stop? There is a precedent: in 1865 in Great Britain, “a man with a red flag and a horn had to walk in front of any vehicle as it was driven”. Should we go for it? More realistically, it was proven that collisions below about 25 mph are almost never fatal, whereas above about 65 mph they are fatal almost always (well, in the absence of air bags, and maybe seatbelts). So, maybe we could adopt 25 as the default speed limit, and also decree that no commercial transportation may ever exceed 65, including commercial aviation. And, for that matter, fly not higher than about 120 feet (from v^2 = 2gh equation). Also, because risks are certainly higher than when skiing or trail biking, all car and plane passengers and pedestrians must wear helmets. This all only makes perfect sense from the viewpoint of basic physics, but also makes the society a mental hospital.
On Prohibition:
I also read this article; thanks, Steve, for the link. It does not, actually, assert that “the ban on alcohol resulted in people tempering their drinking habits forever after”, however, mildly suggests such interpretation in one place. There are some problems with this, besides the rise of Mafia: 1. “Correlation is not causation” fallacy. 2. Why then 13 years of Prohibition resulted in such profound changes that were never reverted in the following 80 years of “permissiveness”? 3. The data are simply not there. The moonshine activities and consumption are impossible to estimate credibly. The article mentions also Russia and USSR – the country notorious for home distilling by virtually every family, far outpacing any shortages of “legal” booze. Add to the unintended consequences a lot of moonshine poisoning.
Kind of relates back to the prohibition argument - some policies create nothing but disrespect for laws and enforcers.
There were plenty of CHP bikes in the parking lot, perhaps city departments dont' pay overtime, but the CHP must pay double time based on my experience.
http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Police-Officer-l-Maryland.html
$44k average. Not sure how accurate that is, I would have guessed 55-60 or so.
One of these is more than enough.
The other scam is since someone that makes 100,000 to 400,000 dollars pays normally the highest tax rates , a lot of cops try to do "the hurt my back on the job procedure". What that does when they successfull scam the system is makes the salary almost tax free.
A while back they caught a champion ship water skier while competing. Incidently he won a very competitve water skiing championship event.
The slight glitch was he was a "CHP Officer" taken off duty with full pay and benefits and almost tax free status disabled on the job: extreme BACK problems.
It reminds me of that Eddy Murphy schtick in Trading Places where he pretends he has no legs begging for money. Two officers go by and lift him up exposing his legs. All the while Murphy is shouting A MIRACLE, Lord Jesus A MIRACLE.
Consumer affairs shows locally examine the data and always find some , esp in Seattle, who make that with OT. And then the hard to fire issues.
Enforce them, after they are made logical and defendable. Right now, so many are not. That's what is really lacking.
I didn't know anyone could survive out there on less than that, given the nice public sector salaries and lobbyist monies.
Real income in all brackets has increased in the United States over the past 30 years, and manufacturing as a percentage of gross domestic product has remained consistent over the past 40 years, when the figures are adjusted for inflation.
Since 2002, our manufacturing output has INCREASED by 30 percent. What has declined is manufacturing employment, but that is thanks to new production processes and automation, not outsourcing. We still make plenty of things in this country, and it is of higher quality and a better price than ever.
Europe isn't the perfect socialist paradise its supporters make it out to be, but it's not an overregulated hell on earth, either. (Also note that, when it comes to rules and regulations and attitudes towards both, there are considerable differences among European countries). The United States is also considerably more complex than its supporters and detractors make it out to be.
fintail: The only reason it is easier to drive those speeds in the US is low population density creating less revenue enforcers to speedtrap. Nothing else to it.
You can drive that fast on sections of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, I-81 or I-95 in several areas, and the areas surrounding those highways are as built up as the rural areas surrounding the German Autobahn.
fintail: The US is not a place for skilled driving. Find someone who is visiting from developed Europe, and see what they think of traffic here. The one quote I remember most was "slow motion".
They must not get out much in Europe. Once you leave Germany, the traffic isn't faster in places such as Italy or France than it is in most of the United States. The one place it is faster is in the cities...and that IS because of recklessness. I was more cautious as a pedestrian and more concerned as a passenger in Turin than I ever have ever been in Philadelphia, New York City or Washington, D.C.
However, at least they are PAYING attention, and just trying to get to where they are going faster. It may be inconsiderate, but I find an attentive inconsiderate driver more likeable than a clueless inattentive unaware incompetent American driver.
Lots of people disagree of course, just as people disagree in here over what the speed limit should be. Interesting stuff (especially for me, having grown up in a dry state in the 50s and visiting bootleggers with my dad).
At some point, you have to ask whether the enforcement efforts, and resulting consequences, are worth the result.
Manufacturing is a tangent.
You can drive that fast almost anywhere - even on surface streets, what kind of ticket will it earn in you in PA? I am pretty sure the authorities don't tolerate 80-90 in that leader of free world amenities and driving fun.
Enforcement is all about revenue, and job security for the enforcers and related administration.
I don't know if Italy can be called "developed Europe"
I do drive like that daily in PA, like most other people do, including on some roads within Pittsburgh. I saw the same on the East Coast (NY et al.) I was never pulled over for anything in this country. My wife, though, got a ticket for something in 40 mph zone once, but went to court, said she doesn't want to feel bad, and the ticket was cancelled (yes, the she-cop who fined her was present at the hearing). Enforcement, when exists, may be about revenue, but it is very patchy here. I don't believe the fines they collect even cover the price of cruisers' fuel. The speed limits and stop signs, it seems, are more to avoid litigation than they are to collect fines. Also, I see most cops as very reasonable. If they are not on an explicit mission of speed enforcement, they easily let you get away with up to 80 mph (or about 120 km/h in Europe and South America) as long as you are driving safely. (Sorry for the heresy!)
80-ish is a common limit in European countries surrounding Germany, too - but is virtually unknown here.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It was like shopping for a ticket.
56-60: $60
61-70: $100
71-80: $120 -> Best Value!
81-90: $150
etc.