Did you recently rush to buy a new vehicle before tariff-related price hikes? A reporter is looking to speak with shoppers who felt pressure to act quickly due to expected cost increases; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com for more details by 4/24.
Do Dealers Need Electronics Technicians?
jlflemmons
Member Posts: 2,242
... technicians to be employed by dealerships? As more and more sophisticated data busses and processors are added to motor vehicles, the mechanical technician is having to rely on factory support on electrical problems. Do you think it is time for the dealerships to employ a "specialist" for these systems much the same way that an automatic tranny guy is used, or a major engine repairman? Your thoughts, please
Tagged:
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
So I think the guys/gals on the "front line" of a dealership will always be majoring in auto repair and some might "minor" in electronics.
Besides that issue, there is the problem of the electronics systems changing all the time. In a sense, there is no sense in becoming so masterful in one system only to have the 2003 cars come out with a different system. Better if you have a good overview and let the really tought and weird problems go to the factory techs I think. Also, these new online databases will help the tech.
A good tech doesn't have to know everything. A good tech only has to know where to look for answers.
So I'd spend more time improving the information databases, not training the techs to perfection.
That means information, parts, training and etc.
The days of mechanics who "guess" are just about to the point where the ones who guess may be finding jobs at one of the chain shops for $9.00/hr.
There are still some of those shops out there who hire "parts replacers", but the trend is going toward mechanics who can figure out the problems. With the advent of the 42 volt system, it will become even more evident, because it will be new territory and the mechanics who can't figure things out, will be heading down the road.
Just my opinion.
I can tell which one I've got about ten minutes after he/she has touched my car.
Jim
But, there is more mechanics using tech hotlines than ever before.
Either way, I stand by my earlier statement that troubleshooting will be done via modem within a very few years.
Jim
I'd certainly hope for a continuing trend toward remote diagnostics, and training the mechanics to know how to access this information properly. Technology is simply moving too fast for one person to keep up on his own.
I'd certainly hope for a continuing trend toward remote diagnostics, and training the mechanics to know how to access this information properly. Technology is simply moving too fast for one person to keep up on his own.
Another problem is that so much of automotive engineering is not standardized. Not only is it different make to make, but often model to model and year to year.
Usually the problem is the loose nut behind the key board. Usually can't replace those 8^)
TB
What mechies? Certainly not this one and I am certain not Alcan either.
The information I use has wiring diagrams and harness routing.
And ALL the testing flowcharts I use, NONE of them suggest replacing with a good known part. NOT ONE.
See, that is the problem I see in a trend for new mechanics, they aren't mechanics or even techs, they are parts replacers. That is not fixing cars.
Testing the part and knowing how to test it, then replacing it when you know it is bad, is THE ONLY WAY.
In reality, I don't think anyone (mfg's/dealers/drivers) wants to pay for someone to diagnose electronic problems, because it takes to long and costs too much. Just think about what some dealers charge to "pull" an OBD II code. We have parts changes, becuase that's what's become most cost effective.
The problem I see, is that dealerships emphasize speed and replacing parts, especially when the vehicle is under warranty. The customers are starting to squawk about these jokers replacing parts until they find the right part.
They talk about losing time and all. But if you stop and think about it, if you take the time to do the diagnostics, usually it is quicker in the long run to diagnose properly and replace the correct part. That time is chargeable and the customer is happy, cause you haven't replace 10 parts on their car to fix the problem.
Personally, I don't see where the problem is, with the correct information, the diagnostics is easy. Gravy work. You test with a flowchart and diagrams and replace the correct part the first.
Now do the same to the suspect solenoid and compare readings. Of course you can only compare like with like but it beats having to take out a solenoid and finding out there is nothing wrong with it. A bit of experimentation with known good solenoids will allow you to build up a data base for all the solenoids you are likely to encounter.
Back to technicians. I have interviewed many electrical techs with "experience" and found most that lacked even basic electronic knowledge. I used to give a short 20 question multiple choice (4) test on actual real world problems. I mean this test was stupid with no hidden meanings. Simple ohms law stuff. 35% was a good score. Some even ran out of the building. I had to reduce it to four questions to get people to finish it in a half hour. These are the people that you are going to get at the car dealerships. I'm sorry, but give me a cheap part puller.
Were you looking for a mechanic or a college grad??
Don't get me wrong, but I have seen mechanics who were some of the best electrical guys around, who could NEVER pass a test on electrical theory.
Why? Because they never had the schooling on it or couldn't understand the gibberish in the schooling. Give them the system and diagram and they can tell you how it works, what it does and how to test/fix it.
That is the "new generation" frame of mind, only digital will work. LOL!
If only that were true, I could dump half the tools. LOL!
And that is where car repairs are heading. After 100,000 miles or so, throw it away. It's no wonder that with all the complexity of modern car electronics plus the hassle of dealing with irate customers that so few new recruits are willing to take the plunge and become mechanics.
There are far better prospects for people with electronic aptitude in more lucrative fields.
Talking about electronic organs - about 25 years ago I had a Yamaha organ that had discrete components throughout. Without exception all transistors were garden-variety type and could be bought at any Radio Shack. I challenge anybody to repair a modern electronic organ without any hassle today. I promise you that all IC's will be unknown types to the average repair person. And you won't find info on them in any data book.
For sure, electronic diagnosis and fault finding is becoming a lost art. Just blame the digital revolution for that.
You see, I deal with several hundred mechanics.
Some of these guys are extremely good with electronics/electrical. Some of them, while very good at building, testing and repairing these systems, couldn't take a test to save their lives. Not because they don't have the knowledge, but because they just can't take tests.
Others, like I said, because the know how the system works, why it works and how to analyze it, but have never deal with the theory of relativity or Ohm's laws.
OBD-II is an example(a rather bad execution)of the attempt to develop diagnostics for pollution control. Projects like obdiicsu.com are collecting real world data correlating to eliminate the need for a dyno emissions test. We'll be plugging in our cars to get our plates renewed. At this time the only thing common in OBD-II is the connector. When the auto industry gets down to one communications standard, the rest of the electronics industry will be ready.
If we had all these talented techs, I wouldn't be reading all these posts of people taking their cars in six times and they are still not fixed. Diagnostic electronics is the way to go. My pet peeve is the poor technical training many schools give and then these individuals go out and become parts replacers even in industry. I too suffer from test panic and every effort was made to ease this. unfortunantly, many are just not competent at their chosen profession.
What's the moral of the story? Thank heaven for booze.
You see, I take offense to that, as I am sure there are a couple others who do.
Besides, we are back to the same old thing. Don't blame the mechanic, blame whoever is the one who should be providing the training to them, whether it is the shop owner, the dealer or whoever.
The training is available, someone has to pay for it though and low paying mechanics can't afford it, some shops and dealerships won't pay for it, so you have a vicious cycle.
Computers should be doing the diagnostics.
Really?? So, the computer is going to tell you where the wire has rubbed and is shorting?
It will tell you where the connector has come loose and isn't making a good contact?
It will tell you where the system is losing its ground?
WOW!! I want one of those. To think, all these years I have been checking wiring and testing voltage drops and things like that when a computer could have done it all for me.
You forget that the wiring will be subject to the elements, like oils, abrasives, varmits and man.
Seiously, as long as there are moving parts, it ain't likely that the computer is going to be able to tell you what to replace.
It is just like OBD2 codes (hey, you brought it up), the trouble codes don't tell you what part to replace, they tell you what system to direct your attention to. There are tests to determine the closest point of the cause, whether it be the sensor, wiring or whatever. It doesn't tell you replace this or that.
The problem that you bring up with the dealer and having to go back several times isn't so much the mechanic, as the way that dealers do things. It is especially pronounced when the vehicle is under warranty. Time is money and for them, since it is a warranty, they replace the most likely parts, saving time and hopefully fixing it. As usual, it doesn't.
Also, until computers are "really" that reliable, someone is going to have to do the actual testing and diagnostics.
Case in point, during WWII, it was found that some of the best cryptanalysts (code-breakers) were not mathematicians, but rather musicians and chess players. The talent really necessary for success was the ability to "think out of the box", which is very hard if not impossible for a computer to do (yet!).
So, like the codebreakers who needed people with both the discipline of the scientist and yet the imagination of the musician, I think the best electronics diagnosticians, especially working with cars, are not necessary the ones who can pass electronics exams. Sure, a decent grounding (har, har) in theory helps a lot, but there's more to it than that.
For instance, not every mechanic would think to discount the brand new part he just put in (oh, that can't be bad, I just replaced it). Or not every mechanic would listen closely enough to the symptoms. "When it rains and my dog is in the car"....and he only hears "when it rains", never realizing that the dog is seating in the back seat under which lies the battery which is shorting against the seat springs (true story---Audi!)
The back seat gets real warm when someone heavy sits in the back. LOL!!
Then they start saying they smell something burning. Aw, the memories. LOL!!
I knew he had knocked off the crank sensor on one bank of cylinders, because I remembered that that sensor sits right at the bottom of the bell housing (duh, BMW!).
My point is that if you even knew the function of every sensor and its location and the symptom that manifests when that sensor malfunctions, you'd be able to solve quite a few problems (not all, of course) without touching anything more than a VOM.
I can just imagine a hacker getting into that website and laying some nasty virus/worm in your vehicle. Coupled to the fact that we have now only 1 wire running around the vehicle controlled by the computer, we can imagine that the conversation in future cars will be something like this,
"Honey, why is it that when I push the brakes the windows wind down?" Only kidding... only kidding..
If a dealer did hire an electronic tech, my experience is that the tech would not bring any additional diagnostic skills beyond that of a good mechanic. Money would be best spent on training. Many mechanics today are working quite effectively today with complex electronics on a system level. Twenty years ago, Detroit went to the electronics manufacturers and wanted them to increase reliability. Your car stopping is far more annoying than than the TV going black. There will always be some cars with some unique electrical problem. Diagnosis of these problems realistically can cost over a $1000 or more and take several days to perform. These cars should go to regional factory repair centers. Perhaps we will need some new electronic lemon law in the future modeled after pollution controls that are warranted for 100K. A friend of mine had a drain hole drilled in the AC housing of his JEEP. A factory recall and after that the message center never worked right. After returning to the dealer four times, they never could fix it and he just gave up. I hear stories like this all the time. How can the dealer ever be interested at warrantee repair rates.
I stated earlier on that I was born in 1937. I was a radio ham for many years and rolled my own coils, ground my own crystals for single side band filters and, built my own transmitters and recievers plus a doing a host of other satisfying tasks connected to my hobby. Sadly, the hobby has changed. Very few radio hams build their own equipment today.
I owned and ran a TV repair shop for many years. I am employed at the moment in the high tech industry. The company I work for produces research systems for major research facilities. We build the biggest and most powerful resistive electromagnets this side of superconducting electromagnets.
So, I feel that I do have some background to be able to make a comment on the subject. I am at this moment looking at a modern circuit board. The print is multilayer and the tracks are hair thin. The components are all surface mount and extremely tiny. The integrated circuits have been shrunk to a miniscule size. The circuit board is defective. What am I going to do with it? Dump it of course! Who in their right mind would want to do fault finding and repair on that?
By all means let the manufacturers make products like that but they musn't expect ordinary people to repair their creations. Either they make them 100% failure free or give enough free supplies of those products to people who must service whatever and wherever they are fitted in.
The manufacturers created the "throwaway" society so let them maintain it. I for one refuse to be part of it. That is my beef about it all. I enjoy modern technology - as long as it works!
I do, in fact, look at cars and trucks as people/stuff movers, mainly because I can't reasonably afford an AMG Mercedes. I used to care a lot more about performance and style, but back then I drove a Sentra and spent a measly 6 grand for a Kawasaki ZX-7 motorcycle which would blow away any car I was likely to encounter this side of Hockenheim. Then I grew up. Not to disparage hobbyists and individualists, but they are not who Honda, Toyota, Mazda or even Ford and GM are targeting. They are selling to me, a mid thirties guy, with a wife who doesn't check oil or tires, and a less than 6 figure salary. My 94 Ranger XLT and my 98 CR-V fit my needs exactly. They are trouble free, as long as I follow the basic maintenance schedule. Other than oil changes, fluid top offs, wipers, bulbs and air pressure I have never done any do it yourself work on those two vehicles. I just bought the CR-V but the same applies to the 96 Saturn that preceeded it. I probably spent less than $500 on maintenance in the 3 years I owned it (I got it in 98 with 50k miles and brand new Firestone FT70 tires) The dealership fixed the cracked head it suffered at the 79k mark at NO COST TO ME because it was under a TSB. I traded that car in last weekend at 113k miles and got $2300 for it because it was in great condition. I sympathize with you gearheads because I sometimes feel the same way about PC's but we have to realize that convenience is what the market wants. I'm curious though; why doesn't a person who really likes to work on cars just restore a vintage automobile and fulfil their jones that way? Finances permitting, of course
Well I gave up on repairing that thing and went one step deeper into the doodoo and bought myself the teeniest lil ole digital camcorder. I'm horrified at the thought of what lies buried beneath the covers and how tiny everything must be.
You see, that's the problem with your hi-tech motorcar too. Everytime you drive it you wonder if and when it croaks (and it will) what's it going to cost to repair and how long it will be in the shop. At least with low tech cars that had points and condensers and carburators you knew where to jiggle things and where to tap on the float bowl to get things rolling again.
Well that explains alot, you have got to be an engineer.
I'm not hostile toward technology, but be realistic, its track record isn't that great.
When you look at some systems on multimillion dollar machines that do highly specialized, dangerous things, they have reduntant systems. Now, why do you think that is? It is because when something fails, it swiches to another circuit, system or whatever.
I have watched vehicles go from points to electronics to computers.
Which was more reliable? The points. Reason, if it broke, you could fix the system with a screwdriver, file and vice grips.
Now, I realize that is far from the point, but here just my input.
And I feel that I am more than qualified to comment on this, as electrical systems is my area of specialty.
For one, it can help you make mistakes faster.
Also, as Opatience suggests, it can render you both powerful and powerless.
It's true, electronic ignition/distributorless ignition, whatever, is extremely efficient and trouble-free, but when it breaks you, the operator, and that $40K high performance car, are rendered completely helpless. So for this "reliability" you pay $600 to fix it rather than $3.99.
Astronauts need this level of complexity. I'm not whether we do or not. I'm not sure when we slip from "grace" (as in "a blessing") to just useless "gadgetry".
Opry, next you will be calling me Nashville. Opera House Works originates from the Opera House Cup sailboat races on Nantucket. There was this Opera House on the second floor of the ship owners association building. Time has a way of glorifying things and I think it wasn't much more than a brothel. Second, I started out rebuilding nickelodians and player pianos. I have no ability to play any musical instrument. Still, I have a player piano and a 12 rank (1000 pipe)Cassavant organ made in Michigan during the twenties. It plays player piano rolls. It was from an estate auction that I left so I wouldn't be tempted to buy it. Somehow, it still made its way to me.