Irv Gordon's Classic Volvo

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Comments

  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Motor (the Swedish version) says the 544 features "slopande" which I think is how they say "farfegnuggen".

    http://home.swipnet.se/~w-47068/pv444.htm
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    "slopande' means abolishment. This was some kind of law change. Something that had been illegal now became legal. (don't know what)
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Thanks. I wondered how you'd know that so I checked your profile and your name explains it.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    According to the 4/19 issue of the Philadelphia Inquirer, Irv is now back in Long Island getting his oil changed and his car tuned before beginning yet another road trip throughout the U.S. next month. Here's some excerpts from the article:

    "Irv was going home to have his car checked up before driving to Rhode Island, then North Carolina, then Texas.....Back in 1966, Irv drove out of the showroom on a Friday evening and simply couldn't stop driving. He didn't go home at all. That Monday morning, Irv pulled into the dealership for his 1500-mile service checkup."
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Irv is just a little compulsive.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    If Volvo only exported so few P1800s to the U.S. in the '60s, how long did the average one last before it died?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    They made well over 50,000 P1800s of all types--hardly a rare car in the US.
  • a_l_hubcapsa_l_hubcaps Member Posts: 518
    jrosas-


    Last time I was at GI Auto Salvage in NJ, there was a P1800 ES like this:


    image


    that had just come in. It looked like it had a lot of Bondo in it, but it was interesting to see that someone other than Irv had one as a daily driver recently.


    -Andrew L

  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I can see why P1800s are hardly used as daily drivers these days. Not cheap cars when new, I bet these Volvos exuded a sense of exclusivity on their owners, since they had to pay so much. I would love to get behind the wheel of a mid-60s P1800 and drive one; I bet it would be tons of fun. Agreed?
  • a_l_hubcapsa_l_hubcaps Member Posts: 518
    jrosas-

    Yeah, they must be fun to drive, or Irv would have bought an 850 by now :-)

    I think a key reason why few of them are on the road, as with many oddball '50s and '60s cars, is parts availability. Repair costs have got to be quite high if you want to use correct Volvo parts.

    And, since they're not really popular cars, the few beaters that are available for parting out probably fall into the wrong hands (like GI Auto Salvage, as I mentioned above) and get crushed instead of fully parted. It's a classic case of the people who need the parts being unable to find them, and the people who have the parts not knowing where to find the buyers. That's why I love the Internet; things like eBay are really alleviating that communication problem.

    -Andrew L
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Actually in my opinion as a former owner they aren't fun to drive at all. They are heavy, with brutal steering, slow as slow can get, noisy as a tractor and with perhaps the world's most uncomfortable driving position, and not very valuable either compared to similar year MGs or Porsche or just about any other two seater.

    Body parts are near non-existant, the overdrive unit is fragile, and they rust at a good clip (hence the Bondo). Aftermarket resources are spotty, unlike say MG, Alfa or VW, which has extensive support for any piece you need, and at reasonable prices.

    Can we say this without being cruel? P1800s are pretty much slugs not worth the cost of restoration.

    But some people like them because they are very rugged and simple to fix. I myself admire these attributes. It really is the kind of car you can drive a million miles if you want to invest in that.

    So what we have here is a very rugged car that looks like a sportscar (sort of, in a dorky Swedish kind of way) without any of the attributes or nuisances.

    You can, however, with a lot of modification, make them fun-er to drive, (you want to go fast, how much do you have to spend?) and you can cure a lot of their failings with the right suspension and engine mods (the B18 stock camshaft is hopeless) but if you are looking for excitement generally a P1800 is not the place to look. This is just a Volvo sedan with a smaller body, that's what you got.

    You should drive a stock one, though, and see if you are appalled or not.

    I think of it as the '55 T-Bird of 60s imports.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,671
    Unlike the real sports cars of the era you never saw the P1800 raced or rallyed.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Some real devoted people have raced them I guess in vintage SCCA, and you can set them up to be competitive with the right mods. This is all possible but you need the know how and the cash to make a decent driver out of them.

    I like the later ES models because they are fuel-injected and prettier as well; also they are worth less than the early cars but you get a lot more-- at least you get a very useful sport-wagon and a very reliable car, not bad for $5k-6K.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    You owned a P1800 at one time? What year was the car?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think it was a '71 if I remember correctly. I didn't keep it long because I didn't like it very much.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    The Saint kept his for years.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I know. Why did he do that? Maybe it was a perk for the show and he couldn't trade it in. Thank god he wasn't in any car chases with bad guys where he actually had to win.
  • lancerfixerlancerfixer Member Posts: 1,284
    If the bad guys were driving Mercedes 240Ds... :-)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Funniest comment I ever heard about a Mercedes 240D was "it couldn't pull the skin off rice pudding". Second funniest was that "it couldn't peel rubber on a wet concrete floor in a parking garage".

    Some years ago my friend John and I built up his brother's P1800, with IPD cam, big SUs, B20E head from a later injected car, Mahle pistons, balancing all parts, slightly milled head, exhaust headers, foam air filters, rebuilt overdrive. It wasn't really "fast" but it sure was smooth and torquey. If we could have fitted power steering, Bilsteins and better springs and tires and seats, it could have been a very nice car indeed. Oh, sound proofing in the firewall, floorboards and transmission tunnel would have helped as well.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    And what year was your friend's P1800?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That was an older one, JR, not a sport wagon. But I do know it wasn't Jensen built, but rather Volvo built, so it had to be post 1964 and pre 1970. That sounds about right.

    Interesting trivia note, the producers of "The Saint" really wanted Jaguar to donate an XKE but the deal fell through at the last minute and the P1800 was substituted. So the P1800 got a lot of undeserved publicity as a sports car (it could only go 107 mph and 0-60 in 14 seconds--not an XKE, but respectable enough for the times in which it was built).
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    When I was in a bookstore yesterday morning, I picked up the new Standard Catalog of Imported Cars and did a thorough reading of Volvos from the 1960s. Did the P1800 really sit on a 120 Series chassis and use almost all common components from that car, including engine, transmission, and cam/roller steering gear? I'm starting to get a feeling that Irv's car and the other P1800s surviving today are nothing more than glorified 122s with a prettier sports-car body.

    I was also looking at a couple of '66 122 sedans for sale on Ebay yesterday. With that large steering wheel and really long gearshift lever, the car looks very inviting to drive, don't you think?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I like 122s, and if you get a stickshift two door, they can be sorta kinda "fun" in a Volvo sort of way.

    122s are very tough cars and in my book one of the most reliable cars ever made.

    Yes, a P1800 is nothing more than a 122 sedan with a two-seater body. There were a few differences in the engine, like a useless oil cooler, but otherwise the same B18 engine as in the 122. Basically good strong engine, but a rather old fashioned pushrod affair.

    Most old Volvos you see are very tired. Volvo camshafts die young on a B18 (too soft) and so these old engines aren't getting anywhere near the proper valve lift.
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    THe 123 GT had all the P1800 parts like the oil cooler, and the B18B engine. THe 122s had the B18D, which is the same engine in a lower state of tune.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Thank you for the corrrection.

    Okay, "basically" the same car as a 122. I don't think the "state of tune" matters very much, at least I never noticed any difference myself. What could it be, a couple of HP? Please let us know.

    The 123GT is a nice car. I wouldn't mind having one. I believe they are all overdrive equipped, is that right? And there was something different on the dash, too as I recall. A tach, was it?

    But these are all quibbles really. A P1800 is a 122 with another body in all fundamental aspects, just like say a Mercedes 190SL is a 180 Sedan.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    I wouldn't be surprised if the P1800 weighs more than the 122. The sports coupes tended to be more luxurious than the sedans they were based on and of course that adds weight. The factory figured the extra hp would take care of the extra weight. But based on Shifty's comments about the P1800 needing more sound insulation, maybe the weight difference isn't that much.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes, I believe that's right, the P1800 weighs more than the sedan and about the same as a 122 station wagon.

    It looks like what they did for the P1800 engine was raise the compression ratio and get about 115 hp out of it rather than 108.

    For it's day the acceleration was okay, really, with 0-60 in something like 13 seconds, a second or two slower than an MGB. An Alfa Romeo was considerably faster.

    All this approx. data is for circa 1970 or so.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    So even the last P1800s wouldn't stand a chance against today's Audis, Volvos, etc., in terms of performance and handling, correct?
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Really, the B got to 60 in around 11-12 seconds? I thought it felt quick but figured it was just the sporty sounds and being close to the pavement.
  • lancerfixerlancerfixer Member Posts: 1,284
    "So even the last P1800s wouldn't stand a chance against today's Audis, Volvos, etc., in terms of performance and handling, correct?"

    Not much from that era would, honestly.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    MGBs have pretty low rear end gearing, so that helps.
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    Depending on the year, yes, Shifty, you are correct on these hp numbers. In the early 60's, the B18D had 90 hp, and I think that the B18B had 100 hp. There were also differences in the camshaft.

    The 123GT is distinguished by tach and a tray on top of the dashboard. They also had the OD and rear view mirrors on the fenders and extra high beam and fog lights.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    When exactly was the 123GT sold in the U.S? Was it something like 1965-67?
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    One more thing: all B18s had two SU carbs, right?
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    All B18s in the US had dual SU carbs, that's correct for the passenger cars. I'm not sure what setup the 210 had.

    In other markets they had a single Zenith Stromberg setup in the B18A. This engine was installed in the base 121, 221 (wagon), 140, PV544, and the 210 larger 2 door wagon.
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    I think it was in '66 through '68. Shifty, do you know? I know it was sold in other markets until 1970, but those cars are more rare than chicken teeth.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think it was 1967-68, I've never seen a '66, but really I wouldn't know until I looked it up for sure. Something like those years, yes.

    They are rare cars and more valuable than a 122 plain-o. It would be a nice car to have, the 123GT.

    The twin SUs worked very well on the B18s--it was a very good combination. The single Zenith wasn't very good and it is totally obsolete by this time. I doubt you could even find a rebuild kit. Most people would be wise to convert to twin SUs, which are relatively simple and trouble-free.
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    You could defenitely find rebuild kits for the zeniths. In fact, those base model cars were the most common overseas. Over there, there was the 121 (B18A), 122s (B18D), and the 123GT (B18B).
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    The Zentihs are not more trouble prone than the SU carbs. They are essentially of similar design (Constant Vacuum), except for the rubber diaphragm (which would crack) on the Zeniths. In the earlier part of the 60's, the Zentihs were of a different design (down draft), and I don't tnow too much about those.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, maybe I'm thinking then of a different carburator or earlier one than the Zenith you mention. I do recall that Zeniths on early Porsches were pretty quarrelsome, and I really don't see how you could get any simpler a carb in the world than an SU. I definitely remember a single barrle downdraft carb on a 544 for which there were no parts no how no way. I ended up fitting a carb from a Rambler American and after rejetting that car ran better than it ever had. It might have been a B16, which is not much of an engine to boot.

    Volvo later went to Strombergs, which I really hated. They were the vacuum-depression type, and developed more power than the SU but were hard to rebuild and adjust and ate fuel like crazy. The SUs were so sweet, you could adjust the jets and idle so easily, and rebuilds were very straightforward. About the only technical thing was that sometimes you had to rebore the carb for the throttle shaft wear.
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    No, a simpler carb than the SU would be one from a moped. However, the SU is also very sensitive to being tuned correctly and in good shape. That twin carb setup could suck down gas like there's no tomorrow otherwise. The single carb setup was a little bit more forgiving. That's the only advantage as I see it.

    FWIW, I had a 131 from '67 back in college. I put a B20 from a 240 in it. I ported the head myself (probably didn't do too good of a job), shaved off 2 mm off it, installed a 7:17 cam (pretty mild cam, about 270 degrees of advertised duration) from Timo (a legendary Volvo race motor builder in Sweden), and put it together. The car would out run many cars in the GTI crowd, plus consistently get over 30 MPG on the highway. I was tickled to death. The carbs were late model SUs that I had cleaned in a ultra sound machine for dentures (LOL). I bought re build kits and KD needles for the carbs.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, that these cars are good for beginners to learn to wrench on. I know I ad a ball doing it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes, you are right on both counts. The SUs have to be in good shape, but if they are, they are sweet carburators. Most people meet SUs when they are tired and abused old things.

    The early Volvos are great to wrench on, very simple and straightforward, except getting the rear hubs off!!
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    How did you port the heads? Did you "port match" the ports to the manifold gaskets?
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    Yes, sort of. THere are locator rings in those intake ports. There's a groove in the port where this ring is pressed in. THe rings are there to align the manifold with the head. What I did was to mill away these grooves, and thereby increasing the size of the runner. After that, I had to be very careful when I assembled the manufold to the head. I also took off some metal around the valve guides. Finally, I polished the ports and the manifold. As you may know, there's a debate whether or not polishing is good. Some people say smooth, polished runners allow better flow. Others say the rougher casting surface allows for a better mixture of fuel and air as it enters the combustion chamber.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Porting and polishing is a real science and its hard for the average Joe to get it right. Often one can solve one problem and create another just by being off the mark a little tiny bit.

    Putting a B20E head on though is a great idea and throwing out the lame Volvo stock camshaft and timing gears also helps a lot to make the B18 a much better performer.

    I used to work on the B18s and make them run significantly better by just rebuilding the distributors, cleaning out and adjusting the SUs and putting in NGK spark plugs. Some guys would try to advance the timing but B18s do not like this and I don't recommend it.

    Also, all Volvo engines of this vintage should be run on premium fuel only.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Why only premium fuel?
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    The head I had was a late B20A head, which had semi- descent runners, and the 44mm-35mm valves. Better than your regular B18 head, but not as good as the B20E head. If I were to do it again, I'd probably leave the ports alone, and just mill it down a bit.

    It is true that these engines want premium fuel. Just about any engine from this vintage does. Advance the timing, and you'll have detonation problems.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    They ping like crazy without premium fuel. Just a combination of compression ratio and their design I guess.

    I kept drumming this into Volvo owner's heads with mixed results.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Yeah, it's pretty ambitious to do much more than port match and maybe clean up casting slag in the chambers so that's why I asked. I could probably find ten articles on how to port smallblock Chevy heads but I doubt that kind of info is available to Volvo enthusiasts. But the proof is in the performance so obviously you have an eye for port design :-).
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