Mini Cooper v. Hyundai Tiburon v. Acura RSX v. Subaru WRX

silverrsxs1

...IF it had been available a few months ago, IF the local dealers hadn't been back-ordered several months and IF there was some wiggle-room on price and feature content. As it was, I played several Acura dealers against each other and got my Satin Silver RSX-S for $21,500 (I challenge you to find a simmilarly loaded Cooper S for that price, even after the gouging subsides).

I freely admit that I like the looks and color selection (YELLOW) of the Mini more than those of my car, but I can't imagine that the Mini could offer anywhere near the same performance, utility and reliablity that I'm getting out of my RSX-S.

Now that I'm a few thousand miles past the break-in period, my car positively screams. I dusted an old Integra Type R at a stoplight this morning and have enjoyed similar successes against other rides. My baby stays bolted to the pavement even when I'm being particularly injudicious and slips easily into well-mannered cruising when I want to take it easy.

I test drove a WRX, but was annoyed by the turbo-lag, lack of standard feature content and inflexibility on price (I couldn't have gotten one with the items I felt it needed for less than $23,500 in my area).

The Tiburon is an impressive leap for Hyundai, but it still isn't up to German/Japanese quality standards.

mgreene1

My Mini S should arrive in mid-Sept and will replace the 5-spd WRX wagon. The WRX edged out the RSX-S last summer mainly due to the novelty and fun factor. The WRX is a great little car and mine's been bulletproof, but after one test drive in the Mini S, there was no doubt in my mind. To quote Will Smith in Independence Day, "I've got to get me one of these!"

iluvmysephia1

Well, then, let's take a 4cyl 2003 Tiburon and turbocharge her! Superior styling and more firepower too. This car blows all the others away because of it's true racecar looks. The others are crude metal toys. You'd kinda want to just push them too hard down the dirthills. Remember those unattractive toy cars and trucks you just kinda wanted to zoom down the hill extra fast and smash the poop out of? Yep-you know what I mean! I know you do. The clear winner here is Hyundai's sexy new 2003 Tiburon.

kevin111

mgreene1 - I am impressed that you are able to buy a new car each year. I am unfortunately not in that fiancial state at this time, so if you want to have a WRX one year, a Mini S the next, then maybe a Mazda RX8, 350Z, or Mustang Cobra (or other sports car comming out?) in late 2003, great! Wish you the best of luck, and will hope you will post your analysis on each car as you own them. It will give a true owners perspective on the different vehicles.

iluvmysephia1 - I have no clue what you are talking about except that you really like the way the Tiburon looks. Hey, I agree. Hyundai did a great job with Pintafario designing it. A friend of mine really liked its looks, and was considering buying it, till reliability came into play.

muffin_man

That was a great message, just because it was so weird.

If you turbocharged a Tiburon, you would have a $25000 Hyundai with no warranty. No thanks.

rickrover

I was intrigued with the Tib when it first came out, even went in to the dealer to test drive one even tho I was totally happy with my turbo GTI. The main thing that turned me off was the interior - the dash looked like an early 80's Toyota design. The Tib is one on the nicest exterior designs on the road. I wouldn't give dependability a second thought - Hyundai has really turned their reputation around in the U.S. in a big way.

kevin111

Hyundai has significantly improved in reliability, but is still not at the level of most car manufacturers. The Elantra (what the Tibi is based off of) received a below average rating on quality from CR.

I remember reading in the LA times that Hyundai was trying to get their reliability up to the levels of Toyota AND Ford. This raised my eyebrows since Ford has had some quality issues.

treybrad1

The Hyundai base engine architecture will (this has been confirmed in the press already) be used by ALL of DCX (this includes Mercedes). Each Group will design and engineer it's own unique models from this base architechure. Everything from a 80-90hp 1.1L to a fire breathing 300hp 2.5L is possible from the base engine.

treybrad1

http://detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0205/06/autos-482712.htm

SEOUL (Bloomberg) Hyundai Motor Co., South Korea's largest automaker, said its new venture with DaimlerChrysler AG and Mitsubishi Motors Corp. will use an engine based on its technology and lead to royalty payments from the partners.

The automakers will each make 500,000 passenger car engines, based on Hyundai Motor's newly developed model. The 1.8 to 2.4- liter engines will be made at the automakers' own plants and be used for their own future models. The Korean automaker expects to receive royalty payments for its engine design starting in 2005.

The three automakers signed an accord yesterday to set up a venture for the design and development of four-cylinder gasoline engines. The venture, called Global Engine Alliance L.L.P., will be equally owned by the three companies. DaimlerChrysler owns 10.5 percent of Hyundai Motor and 37 percent of Mitsubishi Motors and is looking for ways to reduce costs and risks in developing cars.

"The agreement is a sign that Hyundai Motor has gained acceptance for its technology for engines used in smaller cars," said Lee Young Seog, who manages 500 billion won ($390 million) at Dongwon BNP Investment Trust Management Co. "The next step for Hyundai will be to raise its competitiveness for engines for bigger cars."

Hyundai Motor will begin using the engines for its own cars in March 2004, DaimlerChrysler will start using the engines in June 2005 and Mitsubishi Motors will begin using the engines in March 2006.

DaimlerChrysler and Hyundai Motor formed a venture last year to produce engines for commercial vehicles.

treybrad1

http://www.motortrend.com/july02/shark/shark_f.html

rickrover

I'm no fan of Japanese or Korean cars but I have to say Hyundai totally impresses me. I rented an XG 300L last year on a business trip and one of my collegues asked how I got my VP's approval to upgrade into a luxury class rental car. That XG 300L was amazing, very refined and totally luxurious near the level the interior fit and fininsh of my X5. The Sonata looks like a mini Jag - even better than some of Jaguars latest offerings IMO. If I needed a generic 4 door commuter type car I'd have Sonata on my compare list, I wouldn't even look at a Toyota or Nissan.

fxs

How did your WRX experience compare to your S4's?

kevin111

The Sonata's styling looks very similiar to the small Jag styling. It just seems funny to me how a <$20K car can look similiar to a >$40K car!

Hyundai is making great strides in product and quality line up. It is just they are not quite there yet.

strider98

Where do you get that Mercedes will be using Hyundai engines? I have yet to see any evidence of this. The day they do that is the day they lose the rest of my respect.

mgreene1

The 5-spd WRX wagon proved a bit more fun than the 6-spd S4 most of the time, but the Audi felt like a much more powerful car, especially at the lower rpms. The Audi was rock solid whereas the WRX was more nimble and tossable. I liked the steering and gearbox much better on the WRX and the controls were much lighter, especially the clutch. The S4 had seamless, silky smooth power in any gear and there was less turbo lag. I modded the S4, e.g., short shifter, exhaust, diverter valves, and even ran a chip for a few days, but kept the WRX bone stock except for the factory STi shifter. The mods didn't cause any problems, but with the benefit of hindsight, I'd have left the S4 alone, except for the shifter. The seats in the WRX were more comfortable although the S4 was far more luxurious. The WRX didn't have a single problem whereas the S4 had a dash rattle that was cured by replacing a clip on the defroster vent and the S4 also had a seal go bad on the gas tank, which was replaced under warranty. The S4 also used a little more oil between changes, but I never needed to add oil to the WRX. The WRX picked up some power after a few thousand miles but I didn't notice a similar improvement on the S4. I have no regrets with either car but for what it's worth, the WRX held it's value better at trade-in (surprisingly better). To be honest, I had no intentions of parting with the WRX for at least another year or two but made the "mistake" of test driving a Mini Cooper S that was at the local BMW/Mini dealer that's part of the same complex where the SLK320 was being serviced. They had a pure silver / black one available in September with heated seats and moonroof, and it was just too tempting to pass by. With FWD, decent ground clearance (4.8"), and 195/55/16 all season tires, it should be a decent winter car (my rationale for the WRX), but more importantly, it's just a pure joy to drive and still practical with the rear seats folded down. At the risk of being flamed, the Mini S felt far more solid and refined like the little Merc versus the WRX, but with the responsiveness and agility of the '00 Miata LS that I had for 10 months. The Mini S is a lot stronger than the Miata and for any real world driving, it's damn close to the WRX with a lot more comfort. It's also got that elusive, intangible "BMW thing" with respect to the overall driving experience. I've never waited for any car in my life and it's going to be a *long* six weeks waiting for the Mini S.

kevin111

Was interesting to have someone give a first hand perspective on the S4, the Mini, and the WRX in one shot. Thanks. Keep us informed on how the Mini does. Am curious to see how it holds up and if your opinion stays the same after you have owned it for a few months.

Personally, I really wanted usable back seats and Japaneese quality, which is why I went with the WRX. Then again, with people who I have known to buy all three cars, it seems that the Mini really draws the 40+ crowd, while the WRX and RSX draw the younger crowd. My guess is this is due to the perception of the car and history, speed, and perception of practicality. As they said in C&D, from practical purposes I would probably buy a WRX or an RSX, but my heart wants a Mini S.

minimike2

I've never waited for any car in my life and it's going to be a *long* six weeks waiting for the Mini S.
I'm waiting those same 6 weeks for the same color car. I've never waited for a car either...The car dealer is getting sick of my mug there begging for another test drive..

hpulley4

I picked my MINI up off the lot but some people are waiting 18 months so consider yourselves lucky! Have fun with your cars when they come in and don't let the wait kill ya ;-)

aa717driver

A bunch of messages to get through. mgreene--are you a Continental pilot? The one I know is the only person who goes through cars like you do!

The Tiburon is a great looking car. The Hyundai resale is crap. They will eventually be a brand worth having for the long term, like Honda.

The RSX v. WRX is already being debated elsewhere.

The reason for the MC resale being so high is novelty. Personally speaking, I wouldn't go to a BMW dealer to buy a Pepsi. They would charge $5.00 for the "privilege" of drinking a Pepsi purchased from BMW.

MC's are cool and I'm glad they brought them back but I can't wait to get a WRX and thrash one!(sorry, I've always been a fan of Goliath v. David) TC

ateixeira

You can get a WRX sedan from fitzmall.com for $22.8k without even negotiating, and that includes freight. And wagons are cheaper.

Turbo lag isn't that bad. And the RSX isn't any better at low rpm, in fact it might be a little worse because it doesn't really pick up until 5000rpm, while the WRX is alive at least 1000 rpm sooner.

The V6 Tib may give the best low-end torque, actually.

A dealer in Rockville was selling used Coopers for $25,900, and not even S models. They had a few miles on them, I'm guessing from the delivery. But the price is absurd.

-juice

beowulf7

And it looked like a toy gone bad. Sorry. But it did bring fond memories of Mr. Beans' ride.

aa717driver, how can we be sure that Hyundais' resale values will improve w/ future cars, like they did for Hondas? I mean, look at Ford for example. They produced the first cars. And they're resale values are still in the toilet (except for maybe the Mustang).

big_guy

I have been surprised with the # of Mini's I have seen on the streets around town. Just yesterday I saw 4 of them on my way into work. If I'm not mistaken, the mini is out in limited #'s this year so seeing so many in my area (a pretty small market area) was quite a surprise.

Just my $.02

ateixeira

Check out the local autocross, they're all over the place, and dominating their class.

-juice

aa717driver

I've noticed a bunch of Mini's on the used car lots. I asked an owner in the parking lot last night about his and he loves it--except for the ride.

I think some people buy them before realizing how harsh the ride is. That would explain the numbers on the used circuit.

Beowulf--I think Hyundai wants to be a player and will up their quality. I don't have enough faith in my prediction to buy one, though.TC

mpyne

my gf is looking at a hyundai tiburon and think they are swwweeeet. i think they look nicer than the ugly cheap looking acura(should have been a honda) rsx and looks better than the clown mobile mini. as far as reliability is concerned give me a break. some of the people on here were saying to get the mini because the hyundai will not be reliable(LOL). i bet theyre eating their words. also my gf dad is looking at buying a sonata, i should tell them not to buy it because the excels had bad reliability(haha).hyundai is making real strides to improve their image.personally you will never see me in a honda/acura dealership. their cars look like crap to me anyway.

not everyone worships Honda or BMW(mini), some of us are actually annoyed at their declining quality and lousy dealeships.

(wont comment on subaru, dont have allot of experinece with them but sounds like they make nnice cars)

party_guy

Mini Cooper = ladies car

Tiburon = Hyundai = crap

RSX = great car

WRX = Best car in this comparison. AWD, high output turbo flat engine, sharp handling, etc.

mpyne

please provide some reasons you came to this conclusion.

719b

from reading mpyne and party guy's review of the cars in this forum, i'd say they both used the same source for their conclusions.
they both used their prejudices to flame the cars they didn't like.
looks are subjective, so give each other a break on that.
if quality is an issue, try using facts.
when you start calling someone's ride of choice silly names, you're defeating the purpose of these threads... to be educated.
an objective opinion is useful. you guys weren't objective.

mpyne

all im doing is sticking up for hyundai. its funny how all the honda/mini snobs come on this board and say things like hyundais are junk with nothing to back it up. so im just voicing my opinion that not everyone loves honda/bmw and personally im glad theres other choices out there.

gotenks243

The large number of MINIs on used car lots is due to lots of people trying to turn around and make a buck on the car after buying it. The same thing happened when the Thunderbird, PT Cruiser, New Beetle, etc. came out.

Claims of the MINI's ride being harsh are greatly exaggerated. The one I drove, with 16" wheels, performance tires, and base suspension, provided excellent road feel without being harsh at all. Maybe it's harsher with the optional sportier suspension, but if ride is so importnant then why choose that option? I test drove a base RSX within an hour of driving the MINI, and the RSX's ride was a lot more harsh in my opinion.

I'd suggest driving a Mini (with at least the 16"s... I also got a ride in one with 15"s and that was nowhere near as fun) before knocking it as a "ladies car."

Dang it. My post makes me sound like some MINI fanatic. They're nice little cars, but I don't own one and don't plan on owning one. Please, try to take me seriously. This isn't just blind defense.

Mike

719b

why can't you guys defend the virtues of your car without flaming someone else's?
to a car enthusiast, making fun of a guy's car is like insulting his wife or mother.

rickrover

I used to think Hyundai's were garbage - but times have definately changed. A couple of friends bought them last year (Sonata and Elantra)no problems at all - none. Hyundai has really gotten serious about quality. Plus they are some of the nicest looking cars on the road. The way they take styling queues from high end cars and make them look better than what they are copying is cool - the Sonata looks like a little Jag, actually better than the X and S Jags. Who would have thought of copying a FERRARI - and they pulled if off really well with the Tib. I rented an XG300 from Avis on a business trip last year. It was amazing, very nearly the fit, finish and material quality of my X5 plus it drove great - how the heck do they build the XG350L for $25k??? - amazing. Hyundai is breaking all kinds of sales records for good reason - they have really turned their fortunes around in the U.S. It wouldn't kill you Hyundai bashers to take one for a spin - until you do you don't know what you're talking about - you need to get your opinions out of the 80's.

This is the first place I've seen the MINI referred to a "clown mobile" I have to say I think the same - actually "cartoonish" pops into my head when I see one. The interior looks especially clownish, overdone and cheap. The MINI bubble is about to burst big time.

With all that, the only car in this forum that I'd consider is a WRX. I bought a 2002 turbo GTI that barely won out over a WRX last year. I've modified the suspension and engine easily and cheaply, it has 240 hp and handles like a go cart now. The RSX is nice, handles great, but it looks too much like a Civic. I'm also not a fan of VTEC's no low end torque.

mpyne

glad to see someone have an opinion that is based on some actual facts..

kevin111

Hyundai has improved greatly in the past few years. CR rates them similiarly to Ford in terms of reliability. They are still well behind the Japanese, but give them time. They have made HUGE strides in their styling! Hyundais look good, and are a good value at their price point. The only thing is that the Elantra has been recalled +6 times in its short life span. This is per L.A. Times in June.

The Sonata, for the price a good way to go. Nice looking car as well.

ateixeira

Actually, I've seen them on used lots, too, but I suspect it's for a different reason - profits. They had base models for $25,900, a markup of about $10 grand from the base sticker.

I'm talking about used, with a few miles (most had about 500) on the odo.

They're making obscene profits. If someone has one and thinks the ride is harsh, they'd be smart to E-bay it for a nice profit.

Give the Koreans credit, I bet most people that ostracize them have not looked closely at a Korean car for a decade or so. I looked, and found:

* BMW-style hinges to open the trunk, with struts to smooth it out.
* padded fabric headliners
* Struts for the hood, too

Take a close look at the latest from Japan Inc, and you'll find cheap gooseneck hinges that could crush cargo, peach-fuzz-on-cardboard headliners, and prop rods for the hood.

You don't get the stuff Hyundai and even Kia provide in their mid-sizers until you step up to Acura or Lexus. Seriously, take a look.

-juice

silverrsxs1

before buying my RSX-S and was (mostly) impressed. The V6 had nice grunt, the exterior looked sweet, the stereo sounded good and the interior had an upscale feel.

Still after driving the Celica GTS and the RSX-S, the Tibby felt unforgivably sloppy in the turns. There was bad nose dive and it felt particularly front heavy. The supreme balance of the Toyota and Acura showed that Korean engineers are still a few years behind in building a performance vehicle.

Also, when I sold my old Integra LS, I was amazed how easy it was to get good money for it, despite high mileage and several dinks and dings on the body. I sold it to one of the first callers on my advertisement and was deluged with calls for months after.

I also fondly remembered how my car never broke down, never failed to start, never left me in the lurch and always performed like the day I bought it, and ultimately decided to stick with Honda quality.

I'm not knocking the Tiburon, because I think it represents a good price/value equation for a lot of people, but don't make the mistake of comparing it to the technological marvels being built by Honda, Toyota and Subaru.

ateixeira

The Tib has got to be a little nose heavy with that V6 and FWD.

CR tests one in this month's issue. It was the quickest, but rated lowest, FWIW.

Perception lags reality for a few years. Hyundai has an uphill battle. If they can dot their Is and cross their Ts for a couple more years, resale will improve. Plus you pay less to begin with, at least.

-juice

rickrover

A slightly used Hyundai is a true bargain - I'm sure resale will improve considering how popular they are getting.

I test drove a Tib when they first came out. Handling wasn't up to RSX type standards but not terrible by any means. It would work for someone who doesn't require cutting edge handling, other than that it was a totally acceptable package. Hyundai has styling and reliability down, if they take the next step up to cutting edge technology - look out.

Isn't Hyundai big into the rally circuit now? I thought I'd seen a Hyundai competing with the WRX's and Peugot's on the Speed channel.

tnjrobi1

Hyundai has gotten a bad rep from way back in the 80's. I had two different friends back in high school (88-91) that had the little Excel (I think that was what they were/you know the little egg shape car.) Both of these were total pieces of junk. And both of them had under 50,000 miles.

IMO any car should be 0 maintnance up to 100,000 miles. Only preventive items taken care off and general wear & tear items replaced (tires/brakes.) This definately was not the case with these cars.

Maybe Hyundai has gotten better over time, but IMO there like bad girlfriends. I'm not going out with them after I watched them screw my friends over.

And like bad girlfriends you may see a noticable improvement over years, but you still know their dirty past.

silverrsxs1

The Tibby's fine, so long as you know what you're getting yourself into. For someone looking for a nicely styled highway cruiser that they intended to keep for awhile, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a test-drive, especially considering the excellent warranty. I'd particularly recommend a test-drive to anyone considering the awful Mitsu Eclipse, which is just like the tibby, only $8,000 more expensive.

But if you want agile, technologically advanced and reliable, you're going to have to stick with the class of Japan for awhile, methinks...

ateixeira

I agree - the V6 sort of puts it in the grand touring sub class, with the Eclipse and maybe the Sebring.

One area where they are still way behind it specific output (hp/liter). Despite huge displacement comparitively, output isn't all that impressive.

That plus gas mileage is sub par.

But in material quality and value, they are very strong.

-juice

aa717driver

I trashed Hyundai for quality--until the Eclipse was mentioned. That car has had quality problems since they came out.

I love the Tib's looks, but I still think the WRX is the quality king between the two.

I wouldn't buy an EVO if it had 300hp. It's no good to have a big motor if the rest of the car is falling apart around you.TC

nippononly

a Tib over a Mitsu ANYTHING, ANY DAY. So many friends in the last few years with so many problems with Galants and eclipses that were not even very old.

ateixeira

Mitsu may have allowed too much Chrylser influence on the Galant/Eclipse because those platforms are shared. Their cars made in Japan, like the Lancer, have better reliability, FWIW.

-juice

hpulley4

http://www.autonet.ca/AutonetStories/stories.cfm?storyID=6526

E.g. Tiburon 2003 2.0L has only 134HP, down from 140. Some owners will get up to a 12 year warranty though, as compensation.

ateixeira

Holy Cow...nice find. It seemed like they were slower than they should be. The Santa Fe V6 it outrun by many 4 cyl competitors.

-juice

rickrover

Makes you wonder how the heck that could happen and not be detected for 10 years. I've heard of car companies like BMW understating HP ratings. Also something about Japanese car companies understating HP because of some government regulation, they are limited to 279 HP - I think I read about it in a Lancer EVO VII test.

ateixeira

I'm sure that's because it was a small difference. Also, in many cases the cars were slow, but they were also heavy, so weight was most likely taking the blame.

Ford overstated output for the Cobra, even Mazda overstated it for the Miata. Ford fixed the cars, while Mazda offered a $500 incentive or a buy-back option. Hyundai looks like it's stretching the warranty - but only if they were way off.

-juice

the_reel_deel

Hyundai may be the most improved auto company, but lets be realistic here. That nameplate has HORRIBLE resale. That alone would prevent me from buying it. Also, while the quality is vastly improved, its certainly not up to Honda levels.

Of these cars, I think the WRX would be the most fun to drive, but may require expensive repairs if anything did break. The RSX is probably the overall most reliable car on this list and best for the average person. The Mini seems to be a fun car to drive, but is not very attractive (very subjective and just my opinion) and is kind of a feminine vehicle. The Tiburon is defintely a good looking car, but as I said, not a wise choice...

Fair enough?

hpulley4

How many of those cars have you driven? I'm getting a bit tired of comments like, "I think the WRX would be the most fun to drive," and "The Mini seems to be a fun car," which probably means you want to say you haven't driven any of those cars for one second. Even test drives are not a great way to evaluate a car, as many are ten minutes long and yet people post in ownership survey sections based upon a test drive. I wish people would qualify their opinion statements with something like, "I have owned this car for 3 months," or "The dealer let me take it out for an hour," or "I was going to test drive this car but didn't like the looks so I passed on it." Let's have some honest but supported opinions please, not just figments of your imagination! Fair enough?