Mini Cooper v. Hyundai Tiburon v. Acura RSX v. Subaru WRX

the_reel_deel

THEM ALL! Bite your tongue!

As far as overall driving experience, here is the order:

WRX
MINI
RSX
Tiburon

As far as I would love to drive this every day:

WRX
RSX
MINI
Tiburon

Reliability (perceived):

RSX
WRX
MINI
Tiburon

Styling:

Tiburon
RSX
WRX
MINI

Speed:

WRX
RSX
Tiburon
MINI

Handling:

WRX (only slightly)
MINI
RSX
Tiburon

How about you go drive these cars?

aa717driver

Since the cards are on the table, how long did you drive each?TC

hpulley4

Which is a bit unfair as the WRX is the high end version of the RS, the RSX is the high end version, etc.

Sorry I doubted you. Your sweeping comments didn't sound like they were based on any experience.

ateixeira

Well, here's another perspective. If you believe that Hyundai's quality is now good, and resale is truly horrible, then they would make a bargain in a used car, no?

Out of curiosity, why would a WRX be expensive to fix? I have yet to see any AWD failures, after following all the Subie threads for years.

i Club is a good resource for DIY types, and all kinds of wholesalers exist for OE parts, plus a growing aftermarket.

-juice

rickrover

I've driven them all but the RSX - I have driven the previous Vtec Integra. Another one I tested when I got my 02 GTI was the Mercedes C230K. I had a discussion with a friend of mine last night about us test driving cars today. We decided we are going out this afternoon to drive an RSX, Civic SI, Nissan 350Z and a Focus SVT. Neither of us are in the market for anything, we like to keep up with what's out there. I also plan to take a Boxster out later this week. We do this about every 6 months.

Maintenance on a WRX wouldn't concern me at all.

ateixeira

Good luck getting access to a Z, I bet there are wait lists and cars are pre-sold.

Only some Ford dealers can sell SVTs, the one near me doesn't, for instance. So you may want to call ahead.

Have fun. I do the same.

-juice

rickrover

You're right - no 350Z, not even to look at. They had a quite a few incomming Z's available $2,500 deposit and 10% markup - wait a few months for the buzz to die down.

Test drove SVT Focus - not really impressed, nice for the $$ I guess. Handled well, it felt anemic compared to my GTI.

Didn't hit the Honda or Acura dealer - only the Toyota dealer. Test drove an MR2 Spyder with sequential shift transmission - what a blast - absolutely no luggage space, totally impractical, but a blast to drive, recommend testing one, sequential transmission would be the only way to go, it has no automatic mode, you shift with buttons on the front or back of steering wheel or console shifter, digital gear display on the dash, blips the throttle at downshifts to match RPM's to engine speed. Doesn't shift as fast as BMW SMG, but very acceptable and extremely entertaining. These sequential shift transmissions are the wave of the future.

Also test drove a Prius, what an awesome car - no kidding - you have to test drive a Prius Hybrid just for the heck of it sometime. The touch screen that shows energy management is cool. It drove great, lots of room (4 people in it for test drive) 52 MPG in the city 566 mile range on a tank of gas, CVT transmission, plenty of power, completely refined drive, very nice interior fit and finish. Material quality was every bit as good as my GTI, the technology of this car totally impressed me - I want one :-) I'm moving 60 miles from work to justify buying one.

This weekend is a Boxter test drive and I want to test a WRX again and the RSX.

This is why I try to never form an opinion without driving a car first, most of the time any preconceived notions I have about a car totally change after I drive it.

Go test drive a sequential shift MR2 and a Prius if you to see where cutting edge technology is going - a sequential shift transmission would be awesome in a WRX - a true little WRC rally car like on Speed Vision.

beowulf7

I'm assuming you drove the Type-S trim of the RSX since you ranked it 2nd in speed.

big_guy

I dropped into the local MINI dealership the other day to take a look at the vehicle and to see if I would even fit in a car that small (I'm 6'-7" tall and 215 lbs). I was amazed! I fit quite well into the MINI with room to spare above my head and my legs quite comfortable - granted, nobody would be able to sit in the rear seat behind me but the same thing goes for any of the other vehicles in this comparison. Now that I know I can fit I am tempted to take one for a test drive.

I have driven a WRX wagon (the sedan doesn't have enough head room for me) and it was a serious kick in the pants to drive. I have not driven an RSX (not a big Honda/Acura fan mainly due to the arrogance of the dealers I have talked with), and I don't like the styling of the Tiburon. I just thought I'd share my $.02.

719b

i know it's hard to find a compact car with enough head and leg room for anyone taller than normal. i'm 6'4" and i know your problem.
if you like a car and only need small modifications, i found that any garage that specializes in handicap conversions will move the seat tracks back a few inches for more leg room. sitting further back will also give you a little more head room.
my employer leases a new car for me every year, so the dealer takes care of it for me (although i think it's illegal for a dealer to modify the seat track).
this info may keep you from eliminating a car that you like, but needs some tweaking to give you more room.

mgreene1

Test drove one a while back and like rickrover, thought it handled well and was a good deal for the money. It isn't quite the go-kart like the MINI S and had a little more torque steer but all in all, it's a nice ride. The sales guy said the extra power was because of the supercharger but I told him they didn't use one, but he insisted they did and opened the hood to prove it. We looked and we looked, but we couldn't find the S/C. He said "it's in there somewhere" but I'm pretty sure they left it out.
Rickrover noted the SVT Focus he drove felt anemic compared to his GTI, which makes me suspect they also forgot to put the S/C in that one.

ateixeira

Really, you didn't like the SVT? It's gotten rave reviews. Haven't tried one yet, myself.

I'll take the SMG over a full auto any day, anything to keep the manual alive and available.

They left the S/C out, LOL. Ask him if they'll add one after you buy it, then it would be fast! At least one aftermarket shop is working on one.

If you find the WRX tight, Subaru will offer a Forester turbo for 2004, and it looks like a 2.5l turbo is most likely. Those things have head room galore. I can wear a cowboy hat in mine and still have clearance, and I'm 6'.

-juice

mgreene1

I *liked* the SVT, but not nearly as much as the MINI S which is admittedly about $5k more with similar options. The MCS is interesting enough to get me out of the WRX 5-spd wagon, which I also like a lot, whereas the SVT would not be, nor would any other other car in this segment short of the Audi S3 (which isn't available).
Frankly, I think the WRX wagon is the best value in this segment, but I'm a sucker for the flavor of the month and think the MCS is by far the most refined and engaging car in this segment, even if it's not the most powerful.
If the MCS turns out to be a dud, I may go back to the tried and true WRX.

ateixeira

You'd give up a lot of utility, though. The Mini doesn't have a real back seat, there is zero room for knees in the back.

They are cool, though. I followed one today on the way in to work. Not sure I like all the chrome around the taillights, but it's a purposeful little bull dog.

-juice

hpulley4

I've taken 3 friends out to lunch in my MINI on a few occasions, including some over 6 footers in the back and no one (including the suspension) complained. Would I like to sit back there for a 5 hour trip? No, but just for taking friends around it is fine. I am 5'11" tall myself but by pulling my seat up one click there is enough room behind me for someone to sit and I can drive it just fine.

People ask me sometimes if there is any space in the trunk, but it is bigger than it looks back there too. I filled up my BBQ's propane tank and took 3 cases of beer in there with room still to spare. In fact, there was enough room that I had to be careful to wedge stuff around the BBQ tank or it would fall over.

Is the MINI a family car? No, but to me it seems an excellent car for the usual useage of most non-parent drivers, 1 person with at most a lunchbag and a briefcase 90% of the time, one to three passengers and a big bag or two 8% of the time, with 3-5 passengers and lots of luggage needed the other 2% of the time when the MINI won't cut it. I am a parent so we have a mid-sized wagon for the kid stuff and for transporting furniture. The MINI is the fun car for me, I didn't buy it for practicality.

ateixeira

I bet the folks in the back felt pretty cozy. Or they're too nice to complain? :-)

Cargo space is surprisingly good, especially with how versatile the seats are.

Plus, you drive alone 90% of the time, and 5% it's with one other person. It's perfect for that.

I have a Miata as a 3rd car, so I understand your theory completely.

-juice

aa717driver

Let's see, propane tank, beer and a Mini...

What could possibly go wrong there...?TC

nippononly

thru the Mini website - this car seems like a steal at the base price, I am talking the Cooper now, not the Cooper S. It lists just below $17,000 - has anyone who has shopped this car seen one at that price without a lot of stuff tacked on, and a dealer mark-up as well?

I might have to do some test-driving!

Car and Driver just got done with their one-year test of the WRX, and gave it all thumbs-up. It was still under 6 seconds to 60 mph even after the 40K they put on it. Amazing.

Only problem with these two (Mini + WRX): premium gas - running around $2.00/gallon here in the San Francisco area.

rickrover

That's funny about the S/C in the Focus - Ford left it out of the one I drove too.

I took another look at a MINI S last weekend, it is amazing how much room is up front. It has more leg room than my GTI, I'm 6'3" and I have to stretch a little to depress the clutch all the way with the seat all the way back - not many cars I have to do that in whatever the size.
My local MINI dealer has terrible customer service and they still have a $1,500 surcharge on an S $1k on base MINI- they had a bunch of them in stock that were weirdly optioned. MINI and S is really attractive to lease because of high residual, payments are CHEAP.

ateixeira

The residual may come back down to earth, once supply catches up with demand. Right now you could probably sell a used one for more than you paid (if you didn't pay a markup).

It was the same way with '99 Odysseys, some folks sold them for the price they paid, 2 years later.

-juice

beowulf7

... makes you wonder if the economy is really that bad. People are so willing to pay through the nose for the 350Z, S2000, MDX, and now apparently Mini Cs.

ateixeira

It's always that way, the "first on the block" syndrome.

I visited Ourisman Honda last week, and they still had a used S2000 that had been sitting on their lot for a whopping 5 months.

The MDX is rare in that demand remains strong even years later.

-juice

mgreene1

The November issue of Sports Car International has a comparison test of the 1.8T GTI, Civic Si, SVT Focus, and MINI S (which won easily).

muffin_man

how did the others finish?

mgreene1

Performance (0-60, 1/4, 60-0, slalom): MCS, GTI, SVT, Si
Overall (performance, subjective, price): MCS, SVT, GTI, Si

muffin_man

Sounds about right to me. Then again, I paid $16k for my Si.

beowulf7

Wow, they really trashed the Civic Si. Probably deservedly since it's got the most feeble engine out of all those cars.

nippononly

they thought the SI was a big letdown compared to its heritage, and on this point I would have to agree. (Finally drove one...ouch...not the car it was in the late 80's, relative to the market)

kevin111

Could be a big difference in the acceleration part.

With the all important power/weight ratio, I could see the MCS winning in performance.

Since the SVT is $4K-$7K cheaper, I am surprised the MCS beat it out in price to performance!

According to C&D, the Focus SVT acutally out-handles the MCS on the skid pad.

The Honda Si has the smallest tires by far in this group. Would bet that if you put 215 17"s on it, it would do much better.

rickrover

It's too bad about the SI - this is coming from a died in the wool VW nut. Honda really blew it.
I've seen a total of one SI on the road, in my area they are much rarer than a MINI Cooper. I see MINI's on a regular basis now, tons of GTI's and quite a few WRX's and Tibs.

nippononly

WRX's are everywhere! I am seeing Minis every once in a while, and never any SI. I must admit I would probably not notice new GTIs since the body shape is so little changed over the last 15 years that they do not catch my eye the way these other three do.

kevin111

Probably see about the same amount of GTIs and Minis, with WRXs next, then SIs. Do see a few SIs on the road though.

I rarely see a Ford Focus SVT though.

beowulf7

I'm in NJ and have only seen one Mini Cooper (probably not the S), and that was earlier in the spring. I see WRXs all the time RSX a little less frequently (not including my RSX-S, which I see quite often ). I see the GTIs very often, more so than the other cars I've mentioned. Usually in the 1.8T trim, but occasionally the VR6. And while I see Focuses much too often, I can't recall seeing a SVT. Does it look dramatically different if you can't see the "SVT" badge?

nippononly

RSX, which I do see in moderation, not as many as WRX, but more than Minis. WRX frequency is going to be heavily dependent on which part of the country you are in, more than other models, I think, because Subie distribution is so uneven - heavily biased towards the snow belt and the pacific northwest, places where it is wet all the time. I have been in southern California where it is pretty darn rare to see a Subaru - hence, few WRXs.

rickrover

Forgot to mention SVT - not many Focus on Florida roads of any type. Haven't seen an SVT yet, although they are kind of hard to spot.

ateixeira

True, you'll see far more Subies in snowy climates. Probably ten times as many in Colorado vs. SoCal.

-juice

sonya4

In my area--Illinois, NW of Chicago--these are what I see most, ranked in order of frequency:

1. Hyundai Tiburon
2. Subaru WRX (I'm the proud owner of one!)
3. Acura RSX
4. Honda Si
5. Mini Cooper

Yes, I got the WRX partly because of AWD, but also because of the 227 hp. Handles great in all types of weather. Hyundai still has to prove itself, Acura RSX seems to have a rough ride, Honda Si and Mini Cooper are too small.

mgreene1

I've read only 3000 models of the SVT Focus will be built each year, but if you want a really exclusive car, the GTI 337 is the one to go with, since it was only offered as an '02 model in limited numbers. While the 18" wheels on the 337 are a little over the top, with a 6-spd Getrag tranny, Recaro seats, and the enhanced suspension, that 337 looks like a genuine bargain, especially for hardcore enthusiasts willing to risk aftermarket chips, etc.
There will be about 8000 models of the MINI S each year for the US (roughly 40% of the US allotment). It's not likely there will be significantly more over the next two or three years since all MINIs are made at the same factory, which is now at full capacity and making cars for worldwide distribution. What remains unclear is whether demand for the MINI diminishes after the novelty is gone.
Interestingly, when I test drove the SVT Focus, there were 3 unsold cars on their lot, whereas most people have to wait at least 3 months or more to get a MINI S. On the other hand, the only GTI 337 I've ever seen was on a dealer's lot with a sold sticker on it.

aa717driver

I can go all day without seeing an RSX but I may see 2 or 3 Mini's every day. Admittedly, I drive a lot near the local BMW dealership, so they may be on test drives. Tib's are relatively rare, as are WRX's.TC

nippononly

they were only going to make 1000 GTI 337's for the U.S., and they were already all sold?

rickrover

They sold out really quickly - now there is talk of VW bringing the R32 Golf over here. It was released in Europe a couple of months ago. 3.2 liter 241 HP VR6, 4 Motion all wheel drive, six speed, 18" wheels, dual exhaust, leather Ricaro's etc, etc.. One sweet ride:

www.vwvortex.com

ateixeira

I'd like to see those go up against the WRX, with AWD and all.

-juice

rickrover

We can all thank the WRX for opening the floodgates of all the cool stuff on the horizon in the U.S. - EVO VII, Golf R32, STI. Now if Peugeot would bring that tight little Cleo I see rallying on the Speed channel....

All bow to Subaru

hpulley4

The Cleos run in Super 1600 Junior WRC, not full WRC. I hope to see a MINI there sometime as it is primed for it, 1600cc FWD; heck, I'd drive one myself if any sponsors want to get in contact though my drive in to work is my only experience, LOL ;-).

The Cleo is a Renault though. You are likely thinking of the full 2.0L AWD WRC spec Peugeot 206 which has put on quite a show this year, especially with Gronholm, Burns and Panizzi at the wheel.

Subies haven't done that well this year. They lost Burns, got loads of bad luck with Tommi, Pirelli tires are struggling on tarmac, etc.

The Pugs will be wearing Marlboro red next year. Unless other WRC and F1 teams can catch up, FIA will be all red next year... Lets hope some others will pick up the pace!

happycar

Who cares about 0-60, especially on a sub-compact size car that ia not made for preformance. 0-60 is the least important feature to me. Not to mention the most fuel wasting. It's getting harder to find people who drive normal on the roadways of late.

hpulley4

First of all, who says a hot hatch isn't made for 0-60 but secondly, if you have to make left turns onto country roads on your way to work (like I do) then you care very much about the 0-60 times. Wear is and fuel economy are your least concerns when safe merging is an issue. Thirdly, accelerating quickly and driving quickly can be fun AND safe -- you just have to do it in the right place and time. Ripping around town with pedestrians, cyclists and traffic isn't terribly useful but on open country roads, why not?

A hot hatch driven hard still gets much better mileage than an SUV driven lightly so if you are going to point gas mileage fingers, please go to the various giant SUV discussions. Many people commute to work, by themselves on only paved roads in 4000-6000lb monsters -- thats what I call waste!

ranald

I've played that part in a discussion before, I drive in areas where a respectable 0-60 performance is a safety feature.

Imagine going from a stop sign onto a highway, with no onramp or merging lane. It happens. Have fun!

revka

because it was not appropriate for this discussion. In addition, other messages in direct response to this post were also deleted. Let's please focus on vehicles instead of making each other the focus of discussion. Thanks! ;-)

And now back to the subject of the Mini Cooper v. Hyundai Tiburon v. Acura RSX v. Subaru WRX.

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

happycar

Sorry about my comments not being appropriate for this site. Maybe it's better to keep the public in the dark about the truth. I'll keep the truth to myself. I apologize again.

aa717driver

Quit limiting production of the 337/R32, etc. and leaving most of us to buy either watered-down GTI's or go to WRX's and get an unlimited supply of Subie's best.

Maybe VW can't pull it off on large-scale production...TC