The first sport sedan

andys120

BMW owners will probably tell you that the 2002
was the first real sport sedan but that's not so.
--The Jaguar 3.4 Mk.I was introduced ca. 1955 and eventually morphed into the beloved 3.8 Mk.II, a formidable factor in sedan racing during the 60's.
--Another candidate would be the Alfa Giulietta
Berline. I'm not sure what year it was introduced but it and it's descendants definitely
did well in racing.
--The MiniCooper S was tearing up the racetracks of Europe and America well before the introduction of the 2002.

Any other candidates?

jrosasmc

The Audi Fox and Saab 99 from the '70s.

andys120

This little SAAB based on the 95 had some performance enhancements (I don't remember exactly which enhancements). It came out around '62 or '63 and was named after SAAB's victory at the challenging Monte Carlo Rally which came several years prior to that of the Mini-Cooper S. It's kind of interesting that two of the earliest sports sedans were fwd (at a time when fwd was rare). The 99
didn't come along until '68 or so and had (as I heard from an owner)more power than a 2002 even before it was turboed in the mid-70s.

The Audi Fox which came along in about '73 wasn't really very sporty
although it's architecture became the basis for an entire generation
of fwd VWs and Audis.

ghulet

the Audi 100 out way before the Audi Fox? I know the original 100 (I wanna say it debuted in '72 or '73) not a reliable car, though.

OK, wasn't the first sports sedan any Chevy four-door made in '61-62 with a 409? Just kidding, sorta.

andys120

but it wasn't a sports sedan either. Nick looking car for the time but trouble-prone (esp. the inboard brakes) to the extent that when Audi introduced it's successor the 5000 the name was changed (although the 5000 was called the Audi 100 in Europe.
-Ghulet you could make a case for those early muscle cars like the Chevy 409s, Ford 406s and 390s and Plymouth/Dodge 426s. These could all be ordered w. heavy-duty suspensions and brakes. When so equipped they were decent handlers by standards of the day.
-If we take this line of reasoning the first sports sedan may have been
The 1955 Chrysler 300!

speedshift

"Picture a bright red 1960 Chevrolet Impala four-door with all the comforts of home--and yet with acceleration and handling not too far behind a standard Corvette. That's a thumbnail sketch of (the) 'police' Chevy."

That's from a March 1960 road test written by Roger Huntington for Motor Life.

The car he tested had 348/305, HD Powerglide, 3.55 Posi, HD springs and shocks. This wasn't actually the police package since that was only available on the Biscayne, Belair or Brookwood four-door wagon. The police package consisted of stiffer springs and shocks, hard bushings, HD steering knuckles and wheel hubs, HD roller wheel bearings, sintered metallic brake linings and 15" wheels. Not available with OD, Posi or wheel discs. LPO 1108, $49.50.

Mr_Shiftright

I think those American cars were monsters. Even all stiffened up, they'd pogo stick five lanes to the left when they hit a bump. Fun cars, great cars, but nothing "sports" about them that I can remember. You could beef them up to flat track, though, maybe on smooth ovals, and steer with the gas pedal.

The Audi 100LS might be called one of the first "eurosedans", which is a good handling, 4--door GT type car, but again it didn't much have the look and feel of anything "sporty". But I agree, it was a lot more car than the Audi Fox, which I recall as a modest and kind of boring little car.

The Saab Monte Carlo was a fun, fun car. I wish I had one.

andys120

Did I get those numbers right? Although Volvos Post-244 became known as fairly stodgy, even slow
the earliest were quite sporty for their time and did rather well in sedan racing and rallying.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, the PV544 was sportier than most. They even made a "B-18 Sport". It's still a fun car to drive.

Alfa Romeo made a very fierce little sedan in 1963 called the Guilia TI super. It looked just like a regular Alfa 4-door "Berlina" but had thinner sheet metal, no sound-deadening and plexiglass door glass that didn't work, a 5-speed floor shift, Campagnolo wheels, light weight bucket seats. With a bumped-up engine and 200 lbs less weight, it looked like an Alfa sedan but it was significantly more fun. It would slaughter a PV544 I think, with 130+HP and a weight advantage.

mminerbi

How about the late '50s Alfa Romeo Giulietta 1300 sedan? I drove one in Italy, and was very impressed, considering what was on the market from that period. It was refined, with excellent road manners, and its spirited acceleration rivaled some 1600s of its day.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, yeah, Alfas in the 50s were way ahead of their time. Think about it. In 1956 you got 4 on the floor (later 5), buckets, dohc alloy engine, good brakes and handling, easy drop top, stylishness and good fuel economy. Does that sound like the year 2000 or what?

rea98d

Maybe the first for a domestic automaker, the Ford Fairmont. Basically, a Mustang with a 4-door body. Certainly no smoker by todays standards, but when you consider what was out at the time, a Midsize car with a V-8 looked pretty good, and most of the Mustang aftermarket goodies will bolt right up, so it's certainly a car with potential. And certainly a car nobody would suspect of being fast.

andys120

You'd be off by a couple of decades. The Fairmont came out way later than the first domestic sport sedan! As far as I can tell it was the Chrysler 300 (1955).

As for being sport sedan because it shared the Fox platform and the 302 with the Mustang, well....no!

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe even the Hudson Hornet. They were pretty quick and are actually vintage raced and lovingly restored today. So they must have had something to capture people's imagination all these years. Same with the Chrysler. If the Fairmont was a sport sedan, nobody noticed back then, as that was not how people regarded it.

speedshift

Yeah, I was thinking about the 7X Hudson, ideally with the "police" parts they used in NASCAR. Speaking of NASCAR, the '49 Plymouth won a championship--maybe that was the first American sports sedan ;-). No, I owned a '50 Plymouth, nothing sporty about it.

Mr_Shiftright

Peopel are actually beefing up some of those old late 40s, early 50s slugs and racing them in the "Nevada Carrera". It's just gentlemanly vintage racing, but they do go like hell. I guess Juan Fangio started his career in a '41 Chevy sedan.

speedshift

Yes, and David E. Davis spent his entire fortune restoring not Fangio's car (that would almost be worth it) but one "just like it". Made for some interesting articles.

andys120

If not DEDs got rocks in his head, IMO. I'd have replicated any number of more interesting cars that JMF drove.

speedshift

I thought that when he first got into the project but I'm 99% sure a subsequent article indicated it was a repro. Could be wrong--maybe I misread it. I'm not sure what Fangio drove (all I really know about him is that incredible come-from-behind win at the Nurburgring) but a '41 Chevy might have been the cheapest option.

bburland

Greetings: If the discussion is actually about the first sport SEDAN, then, by definition, the BMW 2002 (and the 1600, for that matter) and the 850 SAAB are automatically eliminated, as they had only two doors, despite having a fixed roof. I'm surprised that the only mention of the British car industry is a passing refernece to Jaguar. Lest we forget, the Brits were producing some pretty hot (for their day) large iron back in the '30s and '40s. Some came equipped with hydraulic brakes (a rarity for the time), supercharging from the factory, pre-selector gearboxes and two or three carbs. Coming to mind are the 2-litre Bristol, 2.5-litre Riley, the Sunbeam-Talbot 10, and, of course, the Blower Bentley, all of which were hot rods, in and of themselves, and wild machines in racing trim. Let's harken back to the days of 'balls out' machinery if we're going to talk about 'firsts.'

Mr_Shiftright

Well, historically 2 doors can certainly be sedans. A sedan differs from a coupe in having more room for rear passengers.

I suppose one could reach way back but the 30s and 40s concept of "sport" doesn't usually sit well with the modern enthusiast, as the performance seems, in hindsight, a bit off the mark.

But surely the British have always placed a high regard on the "sporting" car, but not all that many of their closed cars were thrilling to drive. I suppose for a postwar offering the Bentley Continental might be good candidate for an early sport sedan.

Another car that pops into my mind is the 3.8 Jaguar Mark IIs.

andys120

The Cord 810/812 could have been a sport sedan. It was relatively compact and high powered for it's time.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, but it's a foul-handling truck really. It looks sporting enough (beautiful, actually), but that's about it.

One would expect, I hope, that anything called a "sport sedan" could be thrown around without embarassment.

andys120

and brakes weren't what they are today. Do you know from firsthand experience how it handled?

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, I've driven them. They are very scary. You have to remember, 1930s, big V8 flathead engine/heavy trans way up in front there, no power steering. Cut the power steering belt on an Olds Toronado, let some air out of the tires, and add an electric shift transmission that hesitates between gears, and you'll about have the thrill of it.

badtoy

you were right on with the Alfas. They were producing vicious (although weird-looking) little sedans long before the BMW 2002 appeared on the scene....and even after the Bimmers showed up, Alfa was thumping them on the track AND on the street (take it from someone who knows -- I used to go Bimmer hunting on my way to work every day back in '69). Used to humble doctors in their 911-Ts as well. What fun!

Mr_Shiftright

Alfa definitely put the FUN back into driving after World War II. Few automakers made more entertaining cars in that period of time, probably nobody else in mass market.

andys120

It's entirely possible that it was Alfa Romeo that fielded the first modern sports sedan. Does Shifty or some other Alfisti know exactly when it came out and what it was called, was it a 1300?
ca.1955? I'm interested in the specifics.

badtoy

It was a 1300, and it was called the Giulietta Super. A truly ugly little sedan, but one with the heart of a tiger. You can see them at play in The Italian Job.

andys120

Do you know what year the Giuletta Super Berline
1300 was introduced?

badtoy

but I'll ask shifty. It was actually called the Super Ti, and I believe it was introduced in the mid to late 50s.

Mr_Shiftright

Lessee--1955-60 was the Giuletta Berlina 750 series, which as you say was a rather ugly but very spacious/fun car to drive. Then a 2000 Berlina, 58-62, and 2600 Berlina 62-68, both cars that only an Alfa nut could love (same lazy engine as the other 6 cylinder Alfas, the 2000 Spyder/Sprint and 2600 Spider/Sprint, then the more famous Giulia TI, I guess around 1963-72, with the Super being a special version of the TI sedan. It's kind of complicated. Basically you can make a Super out of a regular TI sedan I think, with dual Webers, floor shifter, different axle ratio. I don't think many of these made it to America, unfortunately.

badtoy

for $1300, back in 1970. Had a Wink mirror, white with red vinyl upholstery. Pulled up next to a 911T on the test drive and revved the engine. The owner of the Porsche looked around like, "Where the heck did THAT sound come from?"

A year later, I bought a 69 1750 Berlina. Very nice car, much less controversial looking, but devoid of some of the TI's insane personality. That one had the Spica fuel injection. Didn't want to run out of gas in that car, or you got to play with the injection system -- it didn't like to run on empty.

Mr_Shiftright

No, that's true. The Spica injection pump depends on fuel for cooling and lubrication, SOOOOOO......you don't want to run out of gas.

badtoy

Although I came close many times. I didn't find out about this little wrinkle until long after I'd sold the car!

Mr_Shiftright

Sometimes you get away with it. They really ought to have told owners more about this. Another reason why the cars didn't do as well as they could have. Given good maintenance, old Alfas can go a long, long time.

andys120

The first sport sedan, at least in the modern sense, manual floor shift, light, tossable, good brakes...is either the Alfa Giulietta TI Berlina or the Jaguar Mk. I, both came out around '55. I think the Jag was first.

Whaddya think?

Mr_Shiftright

The Jaguar was a bit of a hippo in comparison to Alfa in 1955, since I only recall those bulbous Mark VII Blivets at that time, but I have to admit they did rally rather successfully. Goes to show you can't tell a book by its cover. Maybe I'm prejudiced because in the US we mostly got the later Marks with automatic transmissions driven by mature people. But seriously, I believe Sterling Moss won quite a few races in sedan classes in a Mark VII.

andys120

I'm sure the Mk 2 was a bit of a load compared to the TI but I believe it was raced and rallyed extensively.
I'm fairly sure it would have been lithe com-
pared with the Mk 7.

Mr_Shiftright

The Mark 2 was a later car, though, early 60s.

andys120

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, still only around 1961 I think, and as I recall we were talking about sedans that were introduced a bit earlier than that.

speedshift

Shifty, I know this sounds weird but didn't you mention the Borgward Isabella as a sedan that had some racing success?

Mr_Shiftright

No, not exactly but you have a good memory! I think I mentioned that Borgward did build a race car that had some success in Formula 2 in 1959. The legend says that the autocratic and rather weird Herr Borgward built the Isabella so that his wife would not buy a Karmann Ghia. It could be true, he was like that apparently.

andys120

andys120

"Legends of Motorsport" show about the Monte or Tulip rallies.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, yeah, in those days you could rally anything, even '51 Chevies. Even American Crosleys raced at Le Mans (didn't do too badly in their particular class, either, until they died).

ghulet

That really beautiful late '60s BMW 2000 sedan I just saw. Lovely car, though this example was an automatic, which precludes it being a 'sport sedan' to me.

im_brentwood

I suppose it would what is now referred to as the Jaguar "Mk 1" (Really the 2.4 and 3.4 Sedans) as they came out in 1956 or 1957 (I forget exactly what year..).

The hot ticket inthe small Jag saloons though was the 3.8 "S-Type" as it had the IRS setup. They handle quite well for what they are and for the time. Much better than a Mk2, But worth much less.

Go figure... But a 356B is more civilized than a 356A and worth less....

Bill

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, I disagree with that. I think a B coupe is worth a bit more more than an A coupe, and a C coupe considerably more than a B. If not in your area, that's the way things will go I think in the near future.

As an example, price an A coupe against a C coupe and you'll see a big difference. So sophistication is working toward higher value, IMO.

However, this does not imply that A values are dropping or anything. Just not climbing as fast as the later cars.

Now Pre-A coupes seem to be lagging much more, so I see a pattern here. The newer the 356 coupe the more valuable is what I'm betting on.

im_brentwood

I gotta disagree..

Looks to me, from what I am seeing (I was just discussing this today with the guys at Klasse 356 in PA) that the As are heating up. If anything, they're selling quicker.

T5s will always be a bit soft.

Pre-As? (And I dont mean 54-55s...) those are in their own little world. They're just rare cars... I am, as we speak, Pursuing a '51 Cabriolet.
It needs a lot of work (But isnt very rusty.. thankfully) and is worth as much as a nice driver C Cabrio.
Bill