To all stick fans: My old Dodge Caravan was a manual, so I could it a sport vehicle, right?
That's nothing, our 1996 Isuzu Trooper was a 5-speed manual. And believe me, there was no "S" in driving that SUV, assuming you wanted to stay upright. But it could and did get out of snow that left slushbox Grand Cherokees stuck. With my wife at the wheel, no less.
In my opinion, you can have a stick without sport, but you can't have (serious) sport without a stick. And that opinion does take into acount the best that Audi, Porsche, AMG, BMW-M and even Ferrari currently have to offer in SMG's and DSG's.
In my opinion, you can have a stick without sport, but you can't have (serious) sport without a stick. And that opinion does take into acount the best that Audi, Porsche, AMG, BMW-M and even Ferrari currently have to offer in SMG's and DSG's.
BTW I disagree totally with your list. Anyone can have an option and habitat1 has his. When is the last time you saw an astronaut risking his life on the track?
Well, I think the only people qualified to say that driving a SMG/DSG Porsche, AMG, M and (especially) Ferrari isn't serious sport are:
1. Race car drivers 2. Fighter pilots 3. Astronauts
No. It's called an opinion, which was allowed on this board by ANYONE the last time I checked. I personally would rather drive a Porsche or Ferrari with a true manual than a SMG/DSG.
BTW I disagree totally with your list. Anyone can have an option and habitat1 has his. When is the last time you saw an astronaut risking his life on the track?
Here is my list:
a. Anyone with an opinion.
Hence the difference between an opinion and an educated opinion.
That's true. But these car manufacturers welcome all comers. Those with opinions and those with educated opinions. In some instances opinions=educated opinions. Since habitat1 drives a 911 I consider his to be an educated opinion.
Since louiswei does not....sorry couldn't resist.
Of course, we could now get into the murky area of what is an educated opinion and by whose say so.
I guess I do see the relationship as it relates to cars and manuals. Of course, if habitat1 wants to offer an educated opinion on what medical treatment to provide me...I may pass. I'm still not sure for example, why James P. Dutton astronaut, who certainly takes some big risks, has a more educated opinion about SMGs than anyone else who may even drive a car with an SMG.
kd....I'm on a different side of the fence regarding the interior of the 3 Series compared to the IS. When shopping, I also wandered over to the Audi store since they were offering A6Q's for $9K off MSRP. I liked the Audi interior the best. Their reputation for making the best interiors in the Premium end is well-deserved.
I always do the "knuckle wrap" test on interior surfaces. No matter where I tapped in the 3 Series, it was clear BMW used high quality, well put together parts. The whole car, from the doors to the dash, had a "bank vault-like" feel. Plus, the wood was more abundant and better looking in the 3 Series than in the IS (whose wood looked like plastic, IMHO).
Didn't get that same result with the IS on the knuckle wrap test.
Don't get me wrong, I thought the Lexus interior was nice. The BMW had more of an understated elegance to it in comparison, though (as did the Audi). But, that's not the real reason we buy BMWs....it's the drive, ride, performance of the cars that gets us.
Breifly looked at the CTS...not bad, but I always qualified it with the adder...NOT BAD FOR GM. There was still a lot of large expanses of plastic. And the knuckle test didn't do much to float my boat, either.
I think we have the same general opinion. When I test drove the top end CTS (not the V), I thought Caddy did a great job on the interior, ok ride and ok exterior.
The interior was soothing. Which after the drive led me to the following observation about interiors and interior color: Understated interior look best in dark colors, while overstated interiors look best in lighter colors.
Well, IMO I think the only people qualified to say that driving a SMG/DSG Porsche, AMG, M and (especially) Ferrari isn't serious sport are:
1. Race car drivers 2. Fighter pilots 3. Astronauts
I wonder which group does habitat1 belong to?
None of the above. But I do have a functioning left foot and right hand, and prefer using both in a sports sedan or sports car. Note, I did not say a million dollar Formula One race car. Which is capable of 4+ G's in flat out tight turns and, as such, places a premium on having both hands on the wheel. I'm pretty sure that most race car drivers would prefer an SMG at Monaco rather than having to do multiple sets of 100 lb arm curls like they used to in the 70's. But from the SMG/DSG cars I've driven, that don't require forearms like Arnold to control, I find SMG/DSG's to take away too much from the direct control and fun to drive experience.
For the record, I had my opinion in 1978 when I bought my first new car (a $4,000 Datsun B210 GX 4-speed). And when we bought our 1995 Nissan Maxima SE 5-speed (which we still own with 155k miles). So the fact that I am now fortunate enough to own a 911 didn't change either my opinion on manual transmssions or of my own intelligence. I'm just as dumb and stubborn now as I've always been.
For the posters here defending a right to have an opinion, thanks. And louiswei, that right applies to you, too.
In my opinion, you can have a stick without sport, but you can't have (serious) sport without a stick. And that opinion does take into acount the best that Audi, Porsche, AMG, BMW-M and even Ferrari currently have to offer in SMG's and DSG's.
:mad:
M
Sorry. But it's only MY opinion and I haven't forgotten my appreciation to you for the well placed kick in my butt to get the 911. The keys and a beer (afterwards) are yours for the asking.
I can't quite understand the comments about too much plastic
Every car is loaded with plastic.
What is it that makes someone get into a Caddy and say "plastic" but keeps that person from saying "plastic" when they get into an Audi? I doubt there is more plastic in the Caddy. But maybe we really can detect "more" even if that more is only 1% more. I know the human eye is more precise than we think it is.
Let's see side by side comparo pics of the interiors and then let's judge. I wonder if the criticism is born out of the shape of things, rather than the feel of things.
Just curious, not being criticial of anyone's opinions here.
Side by side pictures comparo won't do any good...
First off let me say that I totally agree with you 100% on every car in this segment are loaded with plastic. However, 2 very important factors determined if the interior feels "plastic-ish" or not:
1. Percentage of hard-plastic used. 2. Quality of the plastic used.
If the interior used too much hard-plastic, it might looks good but once you touched it, it'll feel cheap. Same thing goes to lower-grade quality plastic. The Caddy probably didn't use more plastic than Audi but it definitely used more hard-plastic and the quality are lower grade.
Getting back to the topic I thought I was posting in, what do you guys consider Entry-Level? And what qualifies as performance? For instance would a Ford Fusion (V6) be considered performance? Granted it doesn't have a manual available, but the 6-speed Auto does a decent job. The 4-cyl has the manual but even being a good size 4 it doesn't offset the weight well enough. So I guess my questions are (being new to the forums and this discussion) is there some kind fo standard that has to be met to be considered entry-level and "performance" sedan? (Other then the obvious.) Some people would argue that a 4-door Civic can perform. But I would disagree. A lot. Thanks!
Check out the top of the discussion - that's where you will find the topic focus. Other vehicles may come and go, but the ones listed at the top usually form the core of the conversations.
By the way, welcome to CarSpace! If I can help you find anything, please feel free to drop me an email.
Thanks Pat!! Since we're on the topic and it seems to fit better here, have any of you driven a new Lincoln Zephyr? Before I'm kicked out of the thread hear me out (and this is not a product advertisement, my dealership only does Ford/Mercury, no Lincoln.. yet..) Anyway, I recently drove a Zephyr after being told it was a lot like a Fusion. They were very wrong. Not only is the V-6 tuned to be MUCH beefier, but the suspension is very different and the amenities make much more of a luxury vehicle. (I checked the first post and I believe all the requirements for the thread are here!) Now, I realize compared to a lot of what you folks are referring to (BMW, Audi, etc) the Zephyr is underrated and outclassed to some extent. But it also stickers for right around $30k with a lot of style and luxury options such as leather, 3 stage heated and cooled seats, etc. It certainly impressed me more then the CTS I drove. Any opinions/experiences?
IMO, I think Zephyr barely fits the entry-level luxury category but definitely not the "performance" and that's from a so-called poseur like me (because I drive an automatic). Many hardcored enthusiasts in this board will tell you that in order to be a "real" performance sedan one needs to:
1. Have a manual tranny 2. Be a RWD or AWD
Unfortunately Zephyr has neither of those.
Also, as many cars under this segment are pushing 300+ HP, Zephyr with 221 HP is definitely underpowered. Just like many said before that the ES350 (which is NOT in this category) is a dressed up Camry I think Zephyr is just a dressed up Fusion as well.
All wheel drive is coming in the 2007 model (at least for the Fusion, so I assume the Zephyr will have it also) but you got me on the manual gearbox. A 6-speed manual would definetly score some points. (even though I also concede it would not make up for the 80 or so HP that it lacks as well.)
Maybe Ford will develop a SVT Fusion. It could throw all the amenities the Zephyr offers in with a Mustang V-8, AWD, and a six speed manual. I'll let you know when they announce it.
Even if Ford comes out with the SVT Fusion, it still won't be an "entry luxury performance sedan". It'll be a worthy competitor to Mazdaspeed 6 and Subaru Legacy though.
What I'm searching for is a RWD vehicle with a manual. It needs to hold my bicycle inside (fold-down rear seats &/or wagon/avant).
Turns out the RWD thing gets you the luxury bit. If there were still such a thing as an RWD vehicle that wasn't a BMW, Infiniti, Cadillac, Mercedes or Lexus, I'd be interested. Am I missing something obvious?
Recently I've decided that a proper European turbo-diesel (something I learned to love ~5 years ago) might trump one or more of my other "requirements," as in VW or Audi. No such luck. Unless I can stomach a VW Jetta (& not the wagon), I'm SOL.
The search goes on. It's looking more and more like a gas 328.
Is a 3 series worth the premium over a similarly equipped G35 manual sedan/Acura TL manual?
Is the "feel" worth that much more money?
Is the BMW more finicky as the miles roll by? Many friends of mine complain that their Bimmers are simply not durable and need more looking after than the average Lexus/Infiniti/Acura.
Is the status of the Bimmer worth the additional headache?
Please help, because I would love to consider a Bimmer, but my friends and associates who own them do nothing but complain.
Nothing that anyone person on this forum tells you, will make any difference in the car *you* get. You could play the statistics and review Consumers or JDs comments on these autos and make an informed decision based on these comments.
But only you can decide the right auto by test driving and then deciding how the auto, dealership and financing (lease vs buy) goes along with your objectives in a car.
That said, I know a number of people with BMWs and none of them have any issues other than normal maintenance. Some are new, some are older.
Yup, what KD wrote. It's your money, only you can decide. And if the BMW fits the bill for you, yet you worry about cost of ownership down the line, then lease! That way, you'll always be in warranty and "free" maintenance...
Drive 'em all and let 'er rip!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
But it's only MY opinion and I haven't forgotten my appreciation to you for the well placed kick in my butt to get the 911. The keys and a beer (afterwards) are yours for the asking.
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Why do people mention status and such when talking about cars like BMW, Lexus, MB? Perhaps it's so cal but out here such cars are so common you'd think with enough cereal box tops you get a 325i in the mail for shipping costs.
As for the guy's question about "feel"...that's all you. If you like the way the car drives and can't see driving something else, then you answered your own question.
Why do people mention status and such when talking about cars like BMW, Lexus, MB? Perhaps it's so cal but out here such cars are so common you'd think with enough cereal box tops you get a 325i in the mail for shipping costs.
well, my 97 528 is north of 147K miles and other than normal maintenance and a few replacement items, has been bullet proof. I think you can get winners/losers from any brand. At least part of any car's durability is how you treat it.
"Please help, because I would love to consider a Bimmer, but my friends and associates who own them do nothing but complain."
I mentioned something similar before in the IS vs 3-series thread. The complaints made me wonder if those buyers did expect some quality issues from a BMW car before making a purchase or they just simply followed the crowd.
The difference is the 3 is getting a huge power boost. The G is just getting some new skin and guts with a small boost in power. 3 series drivers are more interested in performance than looks (in some cases). I bet if it could be broken down, it's the 330i's sales that dropped off while the 325i's have remained steady. 330i buyers are buying for performance while 325i buyers, on average, just want a BMW but cant fit the bill for one of the big boys (5, 6, 7).
Also.. the lease numbers on the 3-series are just average right now, while some of the competitors have laid on big incentives... I think the G35 has $2500 of dealer cash?
It wouldn't surprise me to see lease/dealer cash incentives ramp up next month on the '06 3-series....
And that anemic 330i just beat the new G35 in a MT Comparo, Oct issue. Looks like the 335i will continue its leadership with ease if the 330i can beat its most feared Asian competior.
Comments
That's nothing, our 1996 Isuzu Trooper was a 5-speed manual. And believe me, there was no "S" in driving that SUV, assuming you wanted to stay upright. But it could and did get out of snow that left slushbox Grand Cherokees stuck. With my wife at the wheel, no less.
In my opinion, you can have a stick without sport, but you can't have (serious) sport without a stick. And that opinion does take into acount the best that Audi, Porsche, AMG, BMW-M and even Ferrari currently have to offer in SMG's and DSG's.
:mad:
M
1. Race car drivers
2. Fighter pilots
3. Astronauts
I wonder which group does habitat1 belong to?
BTW I disagree totally with your list. Anyone can have an option and habitat1 has his. When is the last time you saw an astronaut risking his life on the track?
Here is my list:
a. Anyone with an opinion.
1. Race car drivers
2. Fighter pilots
3. Astronauts
No. It's called an opinion, which was allowed on this board by ANYONE the last time I checked. I personally would rather drive a Porsche or Ferrari with a true manual than a SMG/DSG.
BTW I disagree totally with your list. Anyone can have an option and habitat1 has his. When is the last time you saw an astronaut risking his life on the track?
Here is my list:
a. Anyone with an opinion.
Hence the difference between an opinion and an educated opinion.
Since louiswei does not....sorry couldn't resist.
Of course, we could now get into the murky area of what is an educated opinion and by whose say so.
But of course, it is your opinion.
I always do the "knuckle wrap" test on interior surfaces. No matter where I tapped in the 3 Series, it was clear BMW used high quality, well put together parts. The whole car, from the doors to the dash, had a "bank vault-like" feel. Plus, the wood was more abundant and better looking in the 3 Series than in the IS (whose wood looked like plastic, IMHO).
Didn't get that same result with the IS on the knuckle wrap test.
Don't get me wrong, I thought the Lexus interior was nice. The BMW had more of an understated elegance to it in comparison, though (as did the Audi). But, that's not the real reason we buy BMWs....it's the drive, ride, performance of the cars that gets us.
Breifly looked at the CTS...not bad, but I always qualified it with the adder...NOT BAD FOR GM. There was still a lot of large expanses of plastic. And the knuckle test didn't do much to float my boat, either.
The interior was soothing. Which after the drive led me to the following observation about interiors and interior color: Understated interior look best in dark colors, while overstated interiors look best in lighter colors.
1. Race car drivers
2. Fighter pilots
3. Astronauts
I wonder which group does habitat1 belong to?
None of the above. But I do have a functioning left foot and right hand, and prefer using both in a sports sedan or sports car. Note, I did not say a million dollar Formula One race car. Which is capable of 4+ G's in flat out tight turns and, as such, places a premium on having both hands on the wheel. I'm pretty sure that most race car drivers would prefer an SMG at Monaco rather than having to do multiple sets of 100 lb arm curls like they used to in the 70's. But from the SMG/DSG cars I've driven, that don't require forearms like Arnold to control, I find SMG/DSG's to take away too much from the direct control and fun to drive experience.
For the record, I had my opinion in 1978 when I bought my first new car (a $4,000 Datsun B210 GX 4-speed). And when we bought our 1995 Nissan Maxima SE 5-speed (which we still own with 155k miles). So the fact that I am now fortunate enough to own a 911 didn't change either my opinion on manual transmssions or of my own intelligence. I'm just as dumb and stubborn now as I've always been.
For the posters here defending a right to have an opinion, thanks. And louiswei, that right applies to you, too.
:mad:
M
Sorry. But it's only MY opinion and I haven't forgotten my appreciation to you for the well placed kick in my butt to get the 911. The keys and a beer (afterwards) are yours for the asking.
MY opinion is that it's time to get back to the entry-level performance sedans!
Every car is loaded with plastic.
What is it that makes someone get into a Caddy and say "plastic" but keeps that person from saying "plastic" when they get into an Audi? I doubt there is more plastic in the Caddy. But maybe we really can detect "more" even if that more is only 1% more. I know the human eye is more precise than we think it is.
Let's see side by side comparo pics of the interiors and then let's judge. I wonder if the criticism is born out of the shape of things, rather than the feel of things.
Just curious, not being criticial of anyone's opinions here.
First off let me say that I totally agree with you 100% on every car in this segment are loaded with plastic. However, 2 very important factors determined if the interior feels "plastic-ish" or not:
1. Percentage of hard-plastic used.
2. Quality of the plastic used.
If the interior used too much hard-plastic, it might looks good but once you touched it, it'll feel cheap. Same thing goes to lower-grade quality plastic. The Caddy probably didn't use more plastic than Audi but it definitely used more hard-plastic and the quality are lower grade.
You might want to check out the Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread for comparison conversations involving the Fusion and the Economy Sedans (~$16k-$20k) where the Corolla is included - admittedly at the top of that scale.
Check out the top of the discussion - that's where you will find the topic focus. Other vehicles may come and go, but the ones listed at the top usually form the core of the conversations.
By the way, welcome to CarSpace! If I can help you find anything, please feel free to drop me an email.
1. Have a manual tranny
2. Be a RWD or AWD
Unfortunately Zephyr has neither of those.
Also, as many cars under this segment are pushing 300+ HP, Zephyr with 221 HP is definitely underpowered. Just like many said before that the ES350 (which is NOT in this category) is a dressed up Camry I think Zephyr is just a dressed up Fusion as well.
Those are just my opinions (educated or not).
Maybe Ford will develop a SVT Fusion. It could throw all the amenities the Zephyr offers in with a Mustang V-8, AWD, and a six speed manual. I'll let you know when they announce it.
In the meantime thanks for humoring me!
What I'm searching for is a RWD vehicle with a manual. It needs to hold my bicycle inside (fold-down rear seats &/or wagon/avant).
Turns out the RWD thing gets you the luxury bit. If there were still such a thing as an RWD vehicle that wasn't a BMW, Infiniti, Cadillac, Mercedes or Lexus, I'd be interested. Am I missing something obvious?
Recently I've decided that a proper European turbo-diesel (something I learned to love ~5 years ago) might trump one or more of my other "requirements," as in VW or Audi. No such luck. Unless I can stomach a VW Jetta (& not the wagon), I'm SOL.
The search goes on. It's looking more and more like a gas 328.
Is the "feel" worth that much more money?
Is the BMW more finicky as the miles roll by? Many friends of mine complain that their Bimmers are simply not durable and need more looking after than the average Lexus/Infiniti/Acura.
Is the status of the Bimmer worth the additional headache?
Please help, because I would love to consider a Bimmer, but my friends and associates who own them do nothing but complain.
But only you can decide the right auto by test driving and then deciding how the auto, dealership and financing (lease vs buy) goes along with your objectives in a car.
That said, I know a number of people with BMWs and none of them have any issues other than normal maintenance. Some are new, some are older.
Drive 'em all and let 'er rip!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
How many miles does she have now?
M
As for the guy's question about "feel"...that's all you. If you like the way the car drives and can't see driving something else, then you answered your own question.
Here in Pittsburgh we all drive Rolls Royce's.
I mentioned something similar before in the IS vs 3-series thread. The complaints made me wonder if those buyers did expect some quality issues from a BMW car before making a purchase or they just simply followed the crowd.
3-Series 8585 10561 10865
TL 6304 5541 5977
G35 5219 4391 4775
IS 4848 4461 4605
C-Class 5285 4250 4329
What's up with 3er in July?
It wouldn't surprise me to see lease/dealer cash incentives ramp up next month on the '06 3-series....
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The 07 328i and 335i sedans are certainly causing people to shy away from the 325is and 330is.
Got my eyes on those. What 'upgrades' do those models offer over the 06s tho? And at what cost?
The 328i = 235 hp, which is a modest jump over the 325i. Price increase is supposed to be about 1400 for the 328 and over 2k for the 335i.
And that anemic 330i just beat the new G35 in a MT Comparo, Oct issue. Looks like the 335i will continue its leadership with ease if the 330i can beat its most feared Asian competior.
M
3 series will retain the title unless and until Porsche decides to make 4 door Cayman, I suspect.
It will be an interesting fierce battle for #2 among C350, IS350 and G35.