Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

circlew

Here Is the cost of the comparable BMW with x drive. The car cost $7K more up front. Residual is $23K after 39 months. Bottom line difference is $1,000.

2007 BMW 328, ix 4 Dr Sedan



Window Sticker


$44,770

Purchase Price


$44,385

Odometer


0 miles





Program


Bank Lease A

Lease Payment


$730 per month

Term


39 Months

Mileage Allowance


39,000 Total Miles

Residual Value


$23,244

Purchase Option


$23,594

Money Factor


0.00241

Gap Insurance


Included

Down Payment


$0

Due At Signing

$730 + sales tax and title fees
Includes: First Months Payment

I would go with this car considering the performance difference with respect to the extra cost and better warrantee coverage.

Regards,
OW

habitat1

..I see you are back expressing your deepest feelings and exquisite opinions of cars you've never driven.

I have to assume that is the case with the Volvo S80. Because if you had, you would realize that one could put all of the engine upgrades in the world on that car and you still have handling and driving dynamics that are at the bottom of the class. At least the "performance" class that you are trying to put it in. If you just want to save money, I'll sell you my 1995 Nissan Maxima 5-speed with 154k miles for $4,000 and you will have a car that is more fun to drive than a 2007 Volvo S80. Anyone that drives a Volvo S80 and comes away with an excited feeling needs to bottle that and sell it to the pharmaceutical industry.

It's fine by me that you don't feel the need to have your "butt in a designer label suit" to feel well dressed. But you really need to get that butt in the cars you opine on if you expect to have any credibility. Your practice of reading magazines and polling friends and family to form your own opinions is a sad commentary.

kdshapiro

How could one poll a friend and come up with A8=Azera? That is beyond me. That is something you make up in the back of your mind. Even without ever have driven an A8, everything I've read about the auto points me in the direction that it is a hot contender in the luxury space.

rockylee

What ? $661 a month ? If you upside down $10K on your trade in maybe. :confuse: Also you won't pay MSRP for the MKZ, like most do for a Bimmer.

You can red-carpet lease a MKZ for in the three-hundreds with zero down.

Rocky

circlew

As a passenger in an S80 and A8, guess which one I wish I had? The difference in desirability IS NOT with the Volvo from a driver's standpoint...but my wife cares not for performance of the drive rather the safe transportation in style. She actually considered this car (S80) for a brief moment while I was shopping last year!

So I presented the Bentley Continental GT to her as one our next vehicle considerations. (She mistakenly thought she had seen this new Chrysler in a nearby mall parking lot! - I helped her with the I.D.)

She is more enamored with the new 750 in black and that's a steep discount!

Regards,
OW

louiswei

people come to the board and start posting stuffs from what they read and hear rather than their personal experience. Although I don't agree with blueguydotcom on a lot of topics but I have respect for him because everything he has posted is from his own experience unlike someone else here.

For the sake of it...

If I buy the car based on magazine, my rear end would be in the 330i.
If I buy the car based on best bang for the buck, my rear end would be in the G35.
If I buy the car based on brand loyalty, my rear end would be in the TL.
If I buy the car based on polling friends, my rear end would be in the Porsche Boxter.

and last but not least...

If I buy the car based on polling family members, my rear end would in a Camry or Accord.

At the end, my rear end is not in any of those cars listed above. Why? Because I went out test drived most of them (except the Boxter) and came to the conclusion that the IS350 is the car for ME.

For those people who thinks the S80, S60, 9-3 and MKZ belong in this segment please go out and test drive the 335i and come back to tell us that those cars are in the same level "performance-wise" as the Bimmer. At the same time, go sit in a IS350 and tell us that they are in the same level "luxury-wise" as the baby Lex.

I rest my case...

rockylee

#1 All I said was I thought the Volvo S80, was a worthy luxury car alternative when compared to the likes of the LS, A8, and I got slammned for it. Fine i can handle it....#2 I can afford much more than a Azera. #3 I'm just defending S80, and MKZ, from getting steam-rolled in this forum. A guy buys a MKZ, and likes it and then gets hammered for liking it better than a 335i. A CTS-V will spank the 335i and current M3 in a race, so what !!!! If you Bimmer buffs think the M3, is your saving grace that will be topped by the 600 hp. CTS-V even if you guys use a cheaters chip Again, who really cares !!!!!

We like what we like but saying a S80, isn't in the same league as the Audi A8 is ludacris IMHO. You are paying a extra $30K+ to have 4-rings on your grill. If that's what you want to do
(which I doubt many in this forum will buy a A8) that's okay by me. You have my blessings.

Rocky

rockylee

..I see you are back expressing your deepest feelings and exquisite opinions of cars you've never driven.

habitat, honestly how many people in here really have driven cars they write about dude. They claim it but I'm honest and say i haven't. Seriously, think about it. Driving a 330i doesn't qualify one driving a 335i. I can't drive the 07' S80 because it's not out yet. The local BMW dealer doesn't have any 335i's yet to drive yet. He's still trying to sell his 06' left-over 330i's.

I have to assume that is the case with the Volvo S80. Because if you had, you would realize that one could put all of the engine upgrades in the world on that car and you still have handling and driving dynamics that are at the bottom of the class.

Read above post !!!!

At least the "performance" class that you are trying to put it in. If you just want to save money, I'll sell you my 1995 Nissan Maxima 5-speed with 154k miles for $4,000 and you will have a car that is more fun to drive than a 2007 Volvo S80. Anyone that drives a Volvo S80 and comes away with an excited feeling needs to bottle that and sell it to the pharmaceutical industry.

I guess we all have different opinions on what performance should be. Is a Audi A8 a performance car ? I see many people blab about cars that they claim are performance cars in here. So I assumed the S80 with its 315 hp and 4-C's chassis would qualify it as a performance sedan ?

It's fine by me that you don't feel the need to have your "butt in a designer label suit" to feel well dressed. But you really need to get that butt in the cars you opine on if you expect to have any credibility. Your practice of reading magazines and polling friends and family to form your own opinions is a sad commentary.

I guess I could lie like many others in this forum and say I driven this car, and that car, and BS the forum. :confuse:

Please.....

Rocky

rockylee

I was being sarcastic about the Audi interior you guys love so much. It has so much wax polish on it looks fake.

Audi, IMHO hasn't had a great interior since the old A200's.

Rocky

louiswei

#1 All I said was I thought the Volvo S80, was a worthy luxury car alternative when compared to the likes of the LS, A8, and I got slammned for it.

You got slammed for it because you were comaring apples to oranges like always. Nobody would slam you if you compare the S80 to something like the M and GS.

....#2 I can afford much more than a Azera.

Good for you, so let's drop the Azera. You were the one who brought it up.

#3 I'm just defending S80, and MKZ, from getting steam-rolled in this forum. A guy buys a MKZ, and likes it and then gets hammered for liking it better than a 335i.

It's fine that people buy MKZ over the bimmer because they like it better. However, that doesn't mean the MKZ is better in performance nor luxury than the 3er. Also, just because they are roughly in the same price range doesn't mean that the MKZ belongs in this segment. Those people got hammered because like you, they are comparing apples to oranges not because they like the MKZ better.

A CTS-V will spank the 335i and current M3 in a race, so what !!!!

What race? A drag race? Wanna put these 3 in Nuburing for a couple laps and see which one comes out as the winner?

We like what we like but saying a S80, isn't in the same league as the Audi A8 is ludacris IMHO.

Rock, in your instinct, please tell us what percentage of people whom shop for a LS, A8, 7er and S-class will consinder the S80 as an alternative? Your answer will indicate how much you know about the upper end auto market.

rockylee

You must be a VIP or something right ? I didn't know 07' S80's which we are comparing the A8 to was available. speaking on that subject i thought the new 07' Audi A8 wasn't out yet either. Aazing you guys get to drive cars that aren't even out yet !!!!

Rocky

rockylee

Okay, those are your opinions. The IS350, is indeed a nice car for you, but for me I wouldn't or wouldn't want members of family to sit in the backseat with their knees around their ears. I guess luxury wise it has alot of features.

I also know many folks that buy cars without spending any butt time in the seat before purchase. I did this with my former Acura TL.

Rocky

louiswei

My point exactly. I get the best car for ME and you get the best car for YOU base on test drives and own experience but not from magazines and polling family/friends.

rockylee

You got slammed for it because you were comaring apples to oranges like always. Nobody would slam you if you compare the S80 to something like the M and GS.

Whatever....I think its more of a apples to apples comparo using the S80 vs. A8 vs. LS comparo. The Q is more worthy than the M in a comparo. The GS, is more sport than luxury in my eyes.

What race? A drag race? Wanna put these 3 in Nuburing for a couple laps and see which one comes out as the winner?

2008' CTS-V vs. 08' M3 vs. 08' 335i - Would love the oppertunity. I can already predict the winner quite easily.

Rock, in your instinct, please tell us what percentage of people whom shop for a LS, A8, 7er and S-class will consinder the S80 as an alternative? Your answer will indicate how much you know about the upper end auto market.

My instinct is the Lexus LS, will certainly get cross shopped by a unbiased consumer with the S80. Audi A8, I'd guess 30-40% because both are AWD. The 7er would be 5-10% S-class 20-25% if the consumer wanted AWD.

Rocky

rockylee

louiswei,

So are you going to claim to have driven every car we've talked about also ?

Rocky

louiswei

I've driven the 330i, G35, IS350/250, TL, S60, Saab 9-3. Trust me, the Volvo and Saab is no where near the Bimmer in handling. They can't out-turn and bimmer, can't out-run the Lexus and Infiniti and can't out-gadget the TL. That's why I stated that they DON'T belong.

However, don't get me wrong here. When I say that the S80 doesn't belong in the same category as the A8 and LS I mean it doesn't belong because of the luxury factor. Can it out-run the A8 and LS? Maybe, but definitely not in straight line performance.

kdshapiro

When an individual can afford an A8 and wants to buy an A8, why would they settle for an MKZ? If an individual can afford an MKZ and wants and MKZ that is a perfect match.

But it seems to me you don't see the value of an A8. That's fine, but there are those who do.

qbrozen

..I see you are back expressing your deepest feelings and exquisite opinions of cars you've never driven. I have to assume that is the case with the Volvo S80. Because if you had, you would realize that one could put all of the engine upgrades in the world on that car and you still have handling and driving dynamics that are at the bottom of the class.

I'm not trying to defend Rocky's position on a car that's not available yet ... but you know I like to be as fair as possible, so I have to call you out on the fact that you are doing EXACTLY the same thing as he. You are condemning a car you've never driven!

pat

Let's leave it at that.

The A8 and the Volvo S80 are not in the class of vehicles we're talking about here, so let's drop them from here on.

Thanks.

qbrozen

For those people who thinks the S80, S60, 9-3 and MKZ belong in this segment please go out and test drive the 335i and come back to tell us that those cars are in the same level "performance-wise" as the Bimmer. At the same time, go sit in a IS350 and tell us that they are in the same level "luxury-wise" as the baby Lex.

As to your first point, performance is an objective measure, so I have to agree that the 335 trumps all. Luxury, on the other hand, has a large degree of subjectivity, so I can't agree with you there.

Now, back to the 335, if I was spending $40k and could live with its size, then great. The 335 seems like a GREAT car, and I'd love to get one. However, if I wanted to spend less, wanted AWD, and an adjustable suspension, with incredibly comfortable seats, I'd pick the S60R. So I'm still not sure why so many folks here are adverse to this car.

As I asked another poster who never replied ... have you driven an S60R?

I'm not saying its the best here. I'm not saying you should pick it over the precious bmw. All I'm saying is that it has its own merits and certainly deserves to sit in the forum alongside the others in this category.

killerbunny

Replying to rockylee
We like what we like but saying a S80, isn't in the same league as the Audi A8 is ludacris IMHO. You are paying a extra $30K+ to have 4-rings on your grill. If that's what you want to do

If that's your reasoning, why not buy a Toyota Avalon? You are paying an extra $30K+ for the Volvo.... you don't even have that 4-rings. :P

rockylee

I agree the S60R, is is a gem of a car. It's not as fast as the 335i, but it's slightly bigger and more livable for daily use. It also has AWD, which make it even more attractive and it is among the safest automobiles.

qbrozen, I'm with you on the S60R, being worthy.

Rocky

rockylee

Now that is apples to oranges. I'm respecting the hosts wishes and will give up the A8 vs. S80 talk.

Rocky

blueguydotcom

Sure if you want PLEATHER, and no comfort conviences !!!!
How many people are going to buy just a basic 335i ???? sounds like a waste to me....To get one half-way nice you need to spend $45K

Rocky, I have leather, comfort access, xenon headlights, automatic wipers, power seats, auto dual hvac and park distance control. Does it sound like my car is stripped? I have options that aren't even available on the lincoln (manual, swivel headlights and comfort access).

rockylee

Yeah it's kinda stripped when compared to the competition. The MKZ has a THX II certified DVD-Audio unit, where's the bimmers ? where's your ventilated seats ? the MKZ has em' or your navigation system ? the MKZ has tham also. The manual, and the swivel headlamps are about the only options I see aren't available on the MKZ, unless I missing something ? I bet it cost you from a MSRP standpoint about $6-8K or more ?

circlew

General Motors is considering a new rear-wheel-drive platform that could be used to create a compact sedan to rival the BMW 3-Series or Lexus IS250. Lutz said developing a new platform is preferable to shrinking the larger Zeta architecture. "One of the things we’d like to investigate – and I stress, investigate – is a smaller, lighter, rear-wheel-drive architecture," Australia's Drive quoted Lutz as saying.

Lutz didn't say in what markets the platform might be used. Given the resurgence of rear-wheel-drive in the United States — and the popularity of vehicles like the 3-Series — it seems highly likely such an architecture would be used in America.

blueguydotcom

2008' CTS-V vs. 08' M3 vs. 08' 335i - Would love the oppertunity. I can already predict the winner quite easily.

Vaporware. The 2007 335i exists, as does the 2007 CTS-V. Compare the two:

2007 CTS-V with performance shocks, dvd navi, leather = $54,600, basic GM warranty, maintenance not included.
16/25 mpg - gas guzzler tax

335i sedan with sport package, premium pack, navi, sirius radio, leather, = $46,100. 4 year warranty - maintenance included.
19/29 mpg

CTS-v - 0-60 in 5.1 seconds (http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=102194/pageNumber=1?- synpartner=edmunds&pageurl=www.edmunds.com/new/2007/cadillac/ctsv/100704801/road- testarticle.html&articleId=102194)
1/4 mile in 13.5 at 107
Slalom - couldn't find on edmunds' tests
Skidpad - .87 (not from edmunds' tests)

335i - 0-60 in 4.8 seconds (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=117669/pageId=1- 05658)
1/4 mile in 13.3 at 105.9
Slalom 68.4 mph
Skidpad .88

8k difference in price and you don't pay for maintenance on the 335i. On the Caddy R&T's longterm car required brakes for $1490 (http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=4053&page_numbe- r=2)

Hmmm, which one has the higher cost-to-own rating over 3 years? And doesn't offer better performance?

And nobody is going to cross-shop a lexus LS with a POJ Volvo S80. It simply won't happen. The kinda cat with the dough for a Lexus would never consider a bargain basement ford wannabe.

blueguydotcom

Items that impact driving are important to me: manual. Get that? Without a manual a FWD MKZ based on 5 year old Mazda6 underpinnings is just an American ES. You seem hung up on features and regulate handling and performance to the bottom of the criteria.

For the slow kids in the audience: entry level luxury performance sedans. That's the forum. The MKZ is not a performance sedan.

rockylee

The Holden Grand Prix will take a sniff at BMW next year

Rocky

blueguydotcom

Go drive a MKZ, g35, IS350 and a 335i. You come back and tell us there's not a night and day difference. I already know that the MKZ can't handle or perform at the level of the G, IS of 335i (or 325, 328 or 330i).

There's a reason the MKZ is thousands less than the other cars...it's not supposed to be going after those buyers. You're comparing a FWD family hauler (with an old platform) to performance sedans. The ES330, Maxima, Milan, Saab, Volvo S40/60 are the competitors to the MKZ.

rockylee

blueguydotcom, whatever dude and you know your blowing smoke up our pant legs.

0-60 in 5.1 seconds is edmunds test. Even motor trend had it rated at 4.7 and I've seen 4.6 in other tests qith a Q- mile in 13.0 flat.

Add 200 more horsepower to the Super-V that will be here the spring of 2008'. BMW, won't have a car on the market that will touch it. :P

Hmmm, which one has the higher cost-to-own rating over 3 years? And doesn't offer better performance?

Your providing the data the BMW will cost you more money to own. I priced up a 335i Sedan and I as sitting at $53K. The CTS-V was $53k and I get a GM discount so knock off $6-7 for that. Your avg. Joe will be able to haggle off
$4-5K at a high volume dealer. Minus any other incentives.
You can't do that with a 335i. Free Maintence isn't free, it's already calculated in the selling price. You guys I figured would be sharp enough to already know this stuff. :P Does BMW offer you a 5-year 100K powertrain warranty ? :P

I'll take the extra room and as 2pac says see you in my rearview. :shades: And that is with a 07' CTS-V. What kind of a embarrassment lies ahead for BMW when GM, brings out the Super-V ?

God, it's good to be a GM and Ford fan these days.

Rocky

rockylee

Well features and functions are what the majority of drivers are going to use daily. Unless you are going to take or Bimmer to the track to get whipped by CTS-V's every weekend most people would be plenty happy with the MKZ's power band. The 3.7 twin turbo V-6 will be here for Lincoln, in a couple of years. it will first show up in the MKS, and then follow its way in the MKZ. I as much as I hate admit it I think once Lexus puts the battery pack into the IS350, you bimmer drivers will be running for your momma's skirt. :P

Rocky

P.S. The MKZ runs 0-60 in the low-mid 6's making it qualify as a performance sedan. "Life's calling. Where to next"

louiswei

Current CTS-V vs. 335i in Nurburing...I'll take 335i.

Fictionized CTS-V vs. Fictionized next gen M3 in Nurburing...I'll take the M.

Case closed.

rockylee

Hell a FWD Acura TL, will keep pace with a 330i, so why the anti FWD stance. BTW the MKZ, does come with AWD

If I didn't have to have adult passengers on occassions I'd love to drive the IS350 with its now defeatable VDIM. It was the car that braught me to edmunds and the live chat with Bob Carter, and was my first day on this site. If it would of had a defeatable VDIM, I would of bought it over the TL. Now I wished I did (bad Acura experience-long story)

Rocky

rockylee

louiswei,

Thats great just plan on following my lead around the track for the first few miles before I make you slowly disappear.

I in the CTS-V talking hands free to louiswei, "are you still back there" "I don't see you anymore louiswei, I lost you about 3 miles back" :P

Rocky

P.S. Now the case is closed.

louiswei

The 3.7 twin turbo V-6 will be here for Lincoln, in a couple of years

Geez Louise, can we please stick to the current time frame. Let's not let the "back to the future" parade begin AGAIN.

as much as I hate admit it I think once Lexus puts the battery pack into the IS350

Get your fact straight. Lexus ain't putting no "battery pack" into the IS350. They are putting the 5.0L V8 into the IS and call it IS500. I don't think Bimmer fans have anything to worry about, although the IS500 might be competitive in straight line performance with the next gen M3 but I think the M will out-perform the IS500 in handling and driving dynamics.

The MKZ runs 0-60 in the low-mid 6's making it qualify as a performance sedan.

Last time I checked, most of the cars in this segment are running the the 5's with the 335i in the high 4's. By the way, since the Accord V6 and Camry V6 are also running in the low-mid 6's why don't we include them as performance sedans as well.

louiswei

BTW, you know what and where the Nurburing is right?

Just checking...

louiswei

Long story short, the VDIM on the 06' is defeatable. I know it's rather a long (relatively speaking) and unconventional process but the bottom line is that it's defeatable.

qbrozen

By the way, since the Accord V6 and Camry V6 are also running in the low-mid 6's why don't we include them as performance sedans as well.

actually, the 6-speed accord is under 6 secs. And it is a performance sedan. Just not a performance LUXURY sedan.

rockylee

It's in Germany, and is where many races, tests, are performed by auto manufactors. It's the benchmark test track to test cars at thir limits. GM, developed the new Z06 Chassis their and has the 2nd or 3rd? fastest time ever behind a porsche on the track. So I read in MT about a yr. or so ago.

Rocky

blueguydotcom

0-60 in 5.1 seconds is edmunds test. Even motor trend had it rated at 4.7 and I've seen 4.6 in other tests qith a Q- mile in 13.0 flat.

Well, the R&T article also had it at 5.0 seconds. Shrug.

2008 CTS-V

Vapor ware.

I priced up a 335i Sedan and I as sitting at $53K.

That's why i built out a 335i with the same feartures as the CTS-V - premium, sport, sirius and navi gives you the same fearures for 46k. You may not like that but those are the facts, jack.

The CTS-V was $53k and I get a GM discount so knock off $6-7 for that.

I did MSRP to MSRP to keep it reasonable. That's the only way to calculate these.

Free Maintence isn't free, it's already calculated in the selling price. You guys I figured would be sharp enough to already know this stuff. Does BMW offer you a 5-year 100K powertrain warranty ?

How much in maintenance will a CTS-V run you over 3 years? I'm putting it at over 2k (as brakes alone will cost $1400 and then add in oil changes and such). Argue all you want, you know it's true.

blueguydotcom

The 3.7 twin turbo V-6 will be here for Lincoln, in a couple of years. it will f...

Vapor ware. As usual - all you talk about is what might be.

autoedu

Volvo and Saab are very much luxury cars/luxury brands. In true Scandanavian term, luxury doesn't mean over-priced, waste or how many extras money can buy. Scandanvian luxury is simplicity in form and function, quality for life; a perfect balance of art and technology.

The deal you might get for '06 S60 is year end, and model end special, you won't get this great of a deal on the S60 very often. The all new Volvo S60 is expected to come in '08.

As far as luxury is a subject Volvo is among the few (true luxury automaker) that offers a limousine version.




The next 3 years will be a turning point for Saab (legendary for its convertible and aircraft heritage) beginning with the all new 9-5 in 2009 based on the engineering marvel of the Saab Aero X

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/AutoshowArticles/articleId=109477

blueguydotcom

He's read about it. Like the rest of the car "knowledge" he has, it's the result of magazines.

rockylee

Geez Louise, can we please stick to the current time frame. Let's not let the "back to the future" parade begin AGAIN.

Are you in fear of the future or something. Is this BMW's last stand ?

Get your fact straight. Lexus ain't putting no "battery pack" into the IS350. They are putting the 5.0L V8 into the IS and call it IS500. I don't think Bimmer fans have anything to worry about, although the IS500 might be competitive in straight line performance with the next gen M3 but I think the M will out-perform the IS500 in handling and driving dynamics.

Well I've read different. Perhaps since you are VIP, and can drive cars that aren't yet available to the market you might have some Top Secret inside knowledge ? Last time I new the IS500 was still a concept. Perhaps things have changed ?

Last time I checked, most of the cars in this segment are running the the 5's with the 335i in the high 4's. By the way, since the Accord V6 and Camry V6 are also running in the low-mid 6's why don't we include them as performance sedans as well.

They are missing the Luxury part of the equation.

Rocky

rockylee

It's not true JACK, but I'm not going to argue with you since we are not getting anywhere.

Rocky

dhamilton

Don't be lured in to a debate with Rockylee. There are so many metaphors for this my brain hurts. You'll just come out of it wishing you had that 5 minutes [or more]of your life back.

louiswei

Yeah but do you know why I kept mentioning Nurburing instead of Daytona International Race Track?

rockylee

I guess I'm the only one who reads car mags. interesting coming from somebody that parrots C&D quite often.

I also suppose you go out with your track equipment and hook it up to your 335i, etc... and get your personal track results. :P

spare me a minute as I laugh..... :P

Rocky

rockylee

Yep, because it is a challenging course with like 13 major sweepers to test the best engineering car manufactors can muster.

Rocky