Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

circlew

It's interesting and quite ironic, really, that the US needs to import cars like the G8 to get the higher level of build quality for a dying brand. Like I've said before, Caddy just does not pique my interest in the least even with the new CTS. No bash intended...just a personal choice. BTW, I saw a Catera on Saturday and felt more pain!

I once toyed with the idea of an XLR as a fun car but considering it's a 'Vette clone, why not just the C6 'verte? The edges are NOT appealing IMO.

All the best during the Holidays and Happy New Year!

Regards

laurasdada

And to you, OW, Happy/Merry!

You ever have an inexplicable car desire (Bricklin, DeLorean, Subaru SVX)? Mine appears to be the XLR. I think it's the HT convertible, just a gadget that has always appealed to me. And overall I like the exterior style of the XLR. Of course, I don't like some of the GM-cheapness e.g. the plastic looking grille and, well, the interior. Indeed the issue for me (and I'll assume many potential XLR buyers) is the price. Even a couple of years used, the asking prices compare to some formidable new cars, e.g. aforementioned Corvette, Audi A/S5 and BMW 3, Jag XF among others...

So, more than likely it will be an unfulfilled inexplicable desire. Probably should just save my nickels for a new/cpo Jag XK: Beeeeautiful. Or a Maser Gran Turismo: Mas Beeeeatuiful...

My father, in what I can only assume was a moment of insanity and charity, bought a Catera. He was surprisingly happy with the ride and comfort. Unfortunately, the opportunity to enjoy said ride was somewhat limited by its penchant to visit the service bay... :sick: Least reliable car he's ever owned...

But, recent recalls aside (and can they be put aside?), I think the new CTS is a winner, especially for a GM! The first CTS, to me, was a styling abomination both outside and, even more so, inside. But, it sold, so good for GM!

Do Australian-built cars offer quality? I thought not...?

clarkster

My sentiments EXACTLY laurasdada!!! Never have I drooled so much over a prospective car as I have the XLR. I just think it's a bit cost prohibitive for me. Such a SEXY luxury sports car though. If I could find an 07 in the low $50k price range, I'd jump on it like a duck on a junebug!

So I stumble upon the CTS yesterday and have been under the ether ever since! What a car...and over $30K less than a new XLR once all the options are added to it! I'd already have ordered one online had it not been for a few articles I've read about this mysterious CTC-Coupe that might be coming out this summer. Now I could certainly wait til August if that is indeed the case. No one seems to know for sure yet...maybe next month we'll find out for sure.

I just wish the XLR were a bit more reasonable. Either way, looks like I'll be the proud new owner of SOME SORT of Cadillac here shortly! Just found this forum and enjoy all the banter/exchange of info and opinions.

Clark

laurasdada

Welcome, Clark. Check ebaymotors.com and autotrader.com for used XLRs. '05s advertised in low $40s, '06 in the upper $50s. There's $7500 in dealer cash for '07 (maybe customer cash?) so if you can find any '07s new, should be able to negotiate into the mid/low $60s? Might find used/demo '07 in upper $50s...

My issue is that even a used '05 in the mid/high $30s buys you most all of some pretty nice new cars, say a 328/335, S/A5 or if the HT convertible is the desire, Volvo C70 or VW Eos (but not for me, styling is too strange imho). Or I save my $ for that XLR for the Jag XK which haunts my dreams at night...

I'm actually waiting/curious as to a Lexus IS coupe/convert...

circlew

The new Genesis puts the pressure on BMW...

Chassis

The car boasts a 53/47 front-to-rear weight distribution, which comes fairly close to the coveted 50/50 ratio made popular by BMW. Hyundai says the car's body structure is 12 to 14 percent stiffer than a BMW 5-Series or Mercedes E-Class. Despite this, the unibody is lighter than that of either the 5er or E.

The car is still heavy, particularly with the V-8 but at $30K to start, bests even the cars on the ELLPS in many categories other than price, IMO.

Regards,
OW

vic10

I doubt that those who willing pay a premium price for the privilege of being able to say they drive a BMW or Mercedes will even be aware that Hyundai has a car named Genesis (if they are even aware of a car company named Hyundai.). More than likely the Genesis will pull buyers from the Azera, who are mainly Avalon wannabees, and maybe from the Avalon itself.

If Hyundai really wants to make an impact on the upscale market, they need to do what Toyota did with Lexus: Create a new brand with separate dealerships manned with obsequious sales staff. Make the brand flawless and then wait several years for a reputation to build.

blueguydotcom

The brand didn't make Lexus...the LS400 did. The car. The brand was meaningless. 20 years ago everybody scoffed at the notion of the Japanese making a RWD V8 sedan that could compete with BMW and MB. The Lexus dealerships had nothing to do with sales; the product and the price sold the Lexus LS400 and made Lexus into what it is today (highly overpriced).

Euro snobs laughed at the Japanese competitors and said people wanted an established brand. People wanted a luxury nameplate. People bought the badge. And that's somewhat true. Of course, Lexus also offered a 35k v8 luxury sedan that undercut the Euro competition by well over 10k. Suddenly luxury sedans were well within reach for people who didn't want to fork over dough for a Jag, Benz or Bimmer.

The Genesis will appeal to the same folks and I really seeing it hitting Infiniti, Lexus and Acura the hardest (most likely Acura and Infiniti will take it hard). Why spend 50k on an M45 or 5 series when you can get a Genesis for 40k and it's decked out the same way?

louiswei

If Lexus is overpriced then just about every other luxury brand (exclude Infiniti) is overpriced, including MB and BMW. However, that's another subject all together.

I wouldn't say the dealership and service had nothing to do with Lexus' success. True, without the car, the brand is nothing but Lexus' success was built on a decent car at good value (the LS400 was not THAT good) and industry leading dealership experience and service. There are many folks out there who don't know what Edmunds is but like to be treat like kings and queen and Lexus captured them perfectly. Lexus may not know how to build a better driving machine than BMW but they sure do know how to make their brand "luxurious" and how to treat their customers right.

Personally I don't think Lexus, Infiniti and Acura have much to worry about with the Genesis. IMO the Chrysler 300, Dodge Charger, Pontiac G8, Buick Lucerne, Toyota Avalon and Hyundai's own Azera are going to be the biggest loser due to the Genesis launch.

No (okay, very little) luxury buyer is going to be attracted to a car whose manufacture is too shameful to put its emblem on the hood (or grille)...

vic10

"The brand didn't make the car...."

True. But Lexus would not have risen to the level of acceptance (as luxury) as quickly if it had been called a Toyota and sold side by side with Corollas. My opinion....

blueguydotcom

The price and quality of the LS400 and Q45 sold them. The dealer network may have had a part in repeat sales but initially it was all about a luxury car nearly on par with BMW/MB/Jag for a crazy deal.

Personally, I think Lexus drew in people who aspired to own a luxury car. Hell, today plenty of people in their 20s think Lexus is a luxury make! I think Hyundai will pull in plenty of aspirational buyers.

laurasdada

"...(the LS400 was not THAT good)..."

Actually, the LS400 was that good. I remember (well, I think I remember. I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now...) the reviews: shock and awe. The LS was very much Mercedes-like at ~1/2 the price. The Q was very much BMW-like at ~1/2 the price. But, of course, Infiniti opted for the classic "Rocks and Sticks" ad campaign...

The lesser models of Lexus and Inifiniti were just that, lesser. Filler to get folks into the showroom. I agree with BGDC, the big dogs made the marques (much less so Infiniti, of course. They had a much longer and winding road to today's level of success).

The dealer service was also a selling point. I believe the late 80s, early 90s were the height of the German sales arrogance. That had to change...

blueguydotcom

The G35 came out and offered almost 3 series handling, power, RWD, etc with a whole bunch of rough edges. It saved Infiniti. The I35 and G20 had been huge flops because they didn't match the top dogs at anything, so even for less you were getting much less. The G35 changed entry sport lux. Had the G35 been priced the same as the 3 series, regardless of dealer experience, do you think it would have done 4-6k units a month? The Acura TL at 32-35k is a fantastic deal and we know they move 5-7k a month. Would they push that many at 40k?

circlew

IMO, the G is what makes the 3 get better, OK, so they added more weight but I'll bet the weight issue is at the top of the "to do" list going forward for ALL of the engineers. Think 35 MPG...not to mention that carbon fiber and such lighhtweight componenets will become more prevalent on the lesser ELLPS.

Now, the CTS wants a little respect. OK, so lets see how many sales Caddy takes away from the Germans and the Japanese. I would suspect some interesting numbers considering the exchange rate issue.

Regards,
OW

blueguydotcom

I'm talking about the first gen G35. It's an allusion to the impact the LS had on the luxury market. The G35 took the sport luxury market in a way no one had done before - at least successfully - RWD/ 4 door sedan/manual, RWD/2 door coupe/manual. The first gen was dirt cheap, rouge around the edges and it challenged BMW (and MB/Audi to some bit). The latest one, just like newer gens of the LS, got more expensive and became more refined.

louiswei

The first gen was dirt cheap

True, and the interior looks and felt dirt cheap as well.

However, I do agree that we can compare the first gen G35 to the 3-series like the first gen LS400 to the S-class.

habitat1

Back when the Lexus LS400 and Infiniti Q45 first came out, I was working for a Fortune 500 company and every other VP and SVP started looking at them. Some of it was the better price/value they offered, but at least as much of it was the fear of expensive repairs and maintenace headaches. Lexus gave very good luxury- albeit in a boring to drive chassis - with Toyota like dependability.

By the way, I always enjoy looking back in my old Kelly Blue Book as to what those cars actually cost at the time. The Lexus and Infiniti came out in 1990, but giving them a year to "establish" themselves, here are the comparisons from the 1991 model year:

Lexus LS 400: $41,650 / 110" wheelbase
Infiniti Q45: $40,385 / 113" wheelbase
Mercedes E300: $47,550 / 110" wheelbase
Mercedes S420: $64,800 / 121" wheelbase
Mercedes S560: $76,750 / 121" wheelbase
BMW 535i: $43,600 / 108" wheelbase
BMW 735i: $56,500 / 116" wheelbase

So the Lexus and the Infiniti were sized between the 5/E and 7/S classes, but priced below the 5/E.

What is really interesting is how little Mercedes and BMW prices have increased since 1991. Their "fat days" came to an end after Lexus, Infiniti and Acura came to the US - and today BMW's and Mercedes are certainly not exclusively the territory of VP's and above on the corporate ladder. Heck 16 years ago a 1992 Mercedes SL500 roadster had an MSRP of $100k. More than a 2008 Porsche 911S Cabriolet! And more than a 2008 SL550!

fedlawman

It's not just the luxury cars. The MSRP's of the 1991 Nissan 300ZX Turbo, Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4, and BMW M3 were all in the mid to upper $30K's.

Considering that today, $35K buys a 300hp Subaru STi or BMW 135i, you can see just how exotically priced those early-90's halo cars truly were.

On the other hand, I guess one has to consider the cost of the technology back then to mass produce a car that basically, in 1991, had the same performance specs as the current crop of hot GT cars. For instance, put the 300ZX TT and 135i side by side and, by today's standards, the Nissan still holds up (in both performance and styling). Pretty impressive actually...

louiswei

Hmm...

So maybe you German fanboys ought to thank the Japanese to keep MB and BMW honest by not bashing on it too much.

circlew

OK...thank you very much Japan. Now the US can have a go at the Germans

Regards,
OW

circlew

In relative Dollar Value terms, the 1991 S560 would cost $113,603 today. The '08 S550 is $86,700 base but the S600 is $144,200 and S63/65 are $127,000 and $194,000, respectively.

I wouldn't be concerned that Merc profits are hurting that much from Lexus or Infinity.

Regards,
OW

habitat1

In relative Dollar Value terms, the 1991 S560 would cost $113,603 today. The '08 S550 is $86,700 base but the S600 is $144,200

I think you are a little light on your "relative value" calculation. Your figure represents a 48% increase over 17 years (2.33% annual compounded). CPI datea shows about a 57.1% increase over the past 17 years. CPI

On that basis, the 1991 S560 would now cost about $120,600.

A 1992 600SEL had an MSRP of $132,650, or the equivalent of $196,400 today. And that 1992 600SEL is less powerful than the base 2008 S550. The AMG's are in a completely different league.

I don't particularly buy the CPI, however. In 1991 a year's tuition at my alma mater was $13,100. In 2008, it is $35,500, a 170% increase. Even with the current housing market funk, my house is worth at least 3 times more (200% increase) today than it was worth in 1991.

circlew

OK, I'm with you. Agreed CPI is not everyones basket of goods over the years. Look at computers. The price index is inverted between the late '80's and now. And the power difference is thousands of percent over the early models.

At the end of the day, the competition proves useful. Back pre-1990, Caddy and Lincoln were not considered competition, IMO.

So, thanks, again, Japan. Hopefully the Koreans can add some more muscle as we move along. Watch out Japan.

Regards,
OW

circlew

Hopefully the 35 MPG standard gets the engineers using better materials/designs. Even at the high end, plans are being drawn....

Mr. Di Montezemolo also talked about the increasing need for improved fuel economy — even at a company like Ferrari. He said his company aims to reduce fuel consumption by 30 to 40 percent between now and 2013. He said while technologies like Bio Fuel will help boost fuel economy, the biggest improvements will come from lightweight technology like carbon fiber and aluminum.

Regards,
OW

activex111

hi,
i am pretty much down to Audi A3 or IS 250 when looking for a smaller luxury car. Both have excellent mileage and that was one of the main factor giving the gas prices these days.
Thinking of 2006 Audi A3 or 2005 IS250. Liked the interior of IS250, but it is still pricey. Not sure which one to choose.
i am trying to compare the common issues, maintenance costs and dealer/mfg customer service levels..
Any help? THANKS

shipo

Don't know if a back seat is important to you, however, while I'm only 5'8", when I got in the IS250 and set the front seat for my body, I was almost unable to get into the left rear seat. Trying the same thing in the A3 was a breeze as there is easily two to three inches more overall leg room in the Audi.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom

We've got an A3 - 2006 with DSG. In terms of room it's far, far bigger inside than the Lexus. We easily take 4 adults in an A3. We use it to make trips to costco, storage, etc. Shockingly our 2006 has held its value really well. We paid 22k for it in March 2007 and with 27k miles it's still worth at least 21k. The engine's powerful, yet the car gets great gas mileage and the DSG is still fun to play with. It handles poorly but then again so does the Lexus.

On the downside, Audi service is horrible. I had no idea how good I had it with BMW until I took our Audi in for the "free" maintenance. One of the passenger door lock switches blistered and the rubber came off it. The scumbags at Audi of America said it was a trim and normal wear piece so the warranty did not apply. They said repair of the SWITCH would be $300. Seriously, how awful is Audi? My wife swore up and down, telling me she loves the car but we will never buy an Audi again. A 2 year old car with a blistered door switch and it's not covered by the warranty? That's obscene - especially when it's obviously a defect, not a result of wear or tear.

Lexus typically builds bulletproof cars and I'm betting the IS follows suit. Service is pricey but rarely needed.

circlew

Blue, how is the Cooper S holdiing up? Have you tested or seen the 1'er yet?

Regards,
OW

kyfdx

Try an A3 on for size... Make sure you can get in and out of the front seat..

It has a swept back A-pillar, and the B-pillar is pretty far forward.. I can't do it... When I try to enter, it's like the front seat is pulled forward.. (thought, it's not)..

If it fits, it's a pretty neat car..

shipo

Hmmm, that's interesting, I find that the A3 is one of the easiest small(ish) cars to get in and out of that I've ever tried on for size. :confuse:

Best Regards,
Shipo

pv2

Hi,
Have you thought about the Acura TSX? Also, the base TL may be in your price range and, though it's bigger, the gas mileage should still be good. I drive a TL-S and am very happy with it, but gas mileage is middling. Good luck.

blueguydotcom

Cooper's been fantastic. 1 year and no real problems (DSC would freak once in awhile when I was at stoplights but a software reflash cured that). Otherwise it's just a super fun car. I'm averaging 30 mpg, it's got a shocking amount of useful space, it's perfect for the city, great on long drives and just a joy to drive. I keep checking the value and the car's been a rock too - which was my goal when I bought it.

I have an appointment with my BMW dealer to try the 1 when it comes in. I've seen it in person and love the pudgy, aggressive, tall look of the car. My wife's sure we can fit a baby in the back easily but I'm not sold. Still, I'll take one for a spin (ideally a 128 as I don't see the value in the 135 yet).

blueguydotcom

Consider the GTI too. It's not as stylish or as upscale feeling as the A3 but it's got a taller cabin that makes entry/exit easier. Downside, it has a smaller trunk and slightly cheaper feel. A 2007 4 door GTI will be a bit cheaper to about the same price as a 2006 A3. It's a better handling car but the soundproofing isn't quite as good.

fedlawman

Another vote for the TSX here.

kyfdx

I know.. it's weird... about 18 months ago, I had an extensive test-drive.. Didn't notice the problem.. Then, at the car show a few weeks ago, I realize that I can't get in and out of the car... GTI? no problem... A3? no go..

I'm not over-sized, either.. 6' 215 lbs.. in normal proportions (if you like beer bellies...)

blueguydotcom

Maybe the seat was pushed too close? I could see that happening though as that a-pillar has a rake to it with a close b pillar.

The TSX is a great car. I think it's a wonderful value. My wife hated it. She felt in automatic it was a dog and not sporty enough. Shrug. I still think it's a nice car for the money.

Gotta admit I smile when my wife says she wants a sway bar on her A3 and tells me she thinks better rubber would help too.

kyfdx

No... that was my first thought: Someone left the dang seat all the way up..

So, I backed out, and checked... it was all the way back.. It was just like trying to get in my own car, when my wife leaves the seat pulled up.. I can't figure out how I took a 30-minute test drive, and drooled over it for another hour, without realizing that before.... although, my beer consumption is way up.. maybe, that is having an effect on my midriff... :surprise:

I love the TSX, as well...

circlew

Don't get in the Pontiac Solstice or they will have to bury you in it!!

Regards,
OW

cdnpinhead

I just got back from a lunch-hour visit to the local Acura store. They can get me a red TSX with a manual & no nav for what looks like a reasonable price.

It should serve me in good stead while I await a smaller 3-series diesel (2 or 2.5 litre) with a manual, assuming such a thing will ever become available here in the colonies.

The engine compartment actually allows access to most of the key components, and, get this, there's a real dipstick. Oh, and it comes with a spare tire and a jack. And, dumb as it sounds, I'm an XM guy, not Sirius.

Imagine.

nyccarguy

Saying Audi's service is HORRIBLE is being nice. My Mom had an '02 A6 3.0Q w/ Tiptronic. The transmission shifted so harshly and there was a dangerous amount of lag between the time you hit the gas and the car decided to move (like a week). We brought it to the dealer numerous times during her 3 years lease for the problem and we got the "they all do that" or "the transmission has to learn how you drive" or "we were unable to replicate the problem" responses. Besides having to wait 3-4 weeks for an appointment, we actually made an appointment for the Audi Rep to come and drive the car. The guy literally backed it out of the parking spot, drove maybe 10 feet and pulled into another spot and looked my Mom straight in the eye and told her "there's nothing wrong with the transmission." Numerous calls to Audi of America showed they don't care a lick either. Anybody in the Northern NYC suburbs, Avoid PALISADES AUDI like the PLAGUE.

After her 3 year Audi Fiasco, she switched to an '05 530iA (given how much my Dad LOVED his '04 X5 3.0iA) and loves BMWs now. She got a 328xi when the lease on her 5er was up.

The 328xi is a really nice car. Even with the slushbox and AWD, the 3er has a nice amount of giddiup.

HAve you driven a Twin Turbo 335i yet? My Dad got a 335xiA as a loaner car while his '07 X5 3.0si is in the shop and all I can say is WOW! I'm sure a 135i must be that much better.

activex111

thanks for all replies. on another forum in this site, a lot of A3 owners complained about severe problems with DSG transmission. Almost all talk about exact same problem that it suddenly losses power, or keeps shifting gears. that is kinda scary, particularly after reading the dealer experiences here. i wonder if this isa common problem or just few owners have faced it

activex111

i really like the Base TL. but my colleague gets like 15 mpg in stop and go traffic of LA. I drive almost 60 miles roundtrip everyday. The mileage is a bummer otherwise i think that the interior and sound of TL is one of the best in that class.

shipo

I too heard sporadic reports of DSG troubles early on when the A3 was first released, however, after tracking this car for a couple of years now, I can honestly say that I haven't heard many (if any) complaints from owners of 2007 and later A3s.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom

Our DSG's been great. The DSG transmission's been in many Audi cars for years now so I'm not that worried about it.

laurasdada

I commute ~40 miles/day in the Boston area in my '05 TL, slush. Mix of local street stop/go and highway (low speed rush hour) and I consistently average 23mpg (per the OBC). But, for max mpg, this engine was built for highway speed!

pv2

My '07 TL-S auto gets 22-25 on the highway, 19-20 in mixed driving, but last week with only short local drives and got less than 16 mpg, but that's rare.

activex111

wow.. 23mpg on TL is not bad for rush hour traffic.. maybe something i should ask my colleague to check his car..
Most of you are right that the space in IS250 was my main concern but the drive was really FUN. but if i am going to use this car everyday, then i gotta seriously think about the tight space.
i have never seen TSX from inside.. few of you gave a vote to TSX.. hmm.. maybe i should get a test drive.. the mileage seems pretty impressive. i hate the tail lights though, but i can always get a mod for that )

plekto

Just be aware of how large the turning radius is on the TSX. It's almost 40 ft!

An IS250 is 33.4ft. It's an astounding difference, especially when you are parking. the TSX feels like you are parking a Buick.

shipo

It is an engineering trick to allow for a good turning radius on FWD cars. While there are exceptions to every rule, it is generally easier to design a RWD car with a tight turning radius than a FWD or AWD car.

Best Regards,
Shipo

plekto

The Corolla is 35.6ft, or about 4 feet smaller.

A Buick LaCrosse is 40.4ft., versus the TSX at 40.0. Something's just off with the engineering on it.

cdnpinhead

As Shipo says, generally RWD cars enjoy tighter turning circles. However, my source (can't remember what it was at this point) says the TSX turning circle is 38.1 feet, the same as my RWD Lincoln LS. The old (two years ago) BMW330 is all of two feet less, at 36.1. I show the FWD A3 at 35.1, the best of all the cars I've been considering, most of which are RWD. OTOH, my comparison matrix (yes, my screen name is apropos) shows the IS250 at 35.5 feet, not the ~33.5 foot number you cite.

Either way, CV joints take a real beating in FWD cars at the extremes of steering-wheel travel, so there is probably a longevity benefit to not allowing them to go as far as they might otherwise. God knows, Hondas (& Acuras) last forever.