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I've been driving a '01 Accord EX-V6 for the past 8 years - it's been a great car - the only things I have done are the std maintenance items - brakes, tires, etc. I am starting to shop for "newer" used car with less miles as I have 151K miles on it. I am looking at moving up into a more luxury class - looking at Audi A4/A6, BMW 3 or 5 class or Acura TL. Today, I had a chance to drive all of these and in addition a MB. The dealer had a 04 Mercedes E320 and it was awesome to drive and seemed priced ok ($17K).
As I have been doing research I continue to find the biggest complaints against the German cars being reliability and the high cost of repairs. Honestly, after reading the articles and reviews, I am reconsidering "moving up" and thinking about buying a newer Accord or just moving into the Acura class.
A couple of questions -
+ Are the repair costs significantly higher with a German car vs Japanese? I have no baseline on my Accord since I have not had to do any repairs.
+ Is the reliability that much worse for the German cars than an Acura/Honda?
+ Are the repair costs significantly higher with a German car vs Japanese? I have no baseline on my Accord since I have not had to do any repairs.
+ Is the reliability that much worse for the German cars than an Acura/Honda?
Yes, yes.
I would not own a used German-made car without an extended warranty.
+ Are the repair costs significantly higher with a German car vs Japanese? I have no baseline on my Accord since I have not had to do any repairs.
+ Is the reliability that much worse for the German cars than an Acura/Honda?
Over the past 27 years I have owned nine BMWs. In my experience a 3 Series won't be all that expensive to run, assuming that you have a good dealer or independent BMW tech to rely on. Here are the current running costs on my four cars that are used on a regular basis:
2007 Mazdaspeed 3- 4.4 cents per mile over 52,000 miles
2004 BMW X3 2.5- 2.8 cents per mile over 86,000 miles
1999 Jeep Wrangler TJ- 5.2 cents per mile over 58800 miles
1995 BMW 318ti- 5.4 cents per mile over 120,000 miles
In 86,000 miles the X3 has needed one warranty repair- a passenger SRS sensor. Aside from that it has needed one set of brakes at 60,000 miles and tires at 46,000. The Inspection II(major) service and a brake fluid flush at 65,000 miles cost less than $370.
The 318ti is my part-time track rat(note that its running costs include four sets of track rubber). In the 15 years I've owned it it's needed two sets of front pads and one set of rear pads along with four rotors. I've also replaced the drive belts and idler pulleys, the brake light switch, battery and the thermostat, all of which costs less than $550. My last Inspection II cost $495, and that number included a coolant flush and a four wheel alignment.
In contrast, my Mazda has needed major mechanical and suspension repairs- it will soon be replaced with either an M3 or M5.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Conversely, most of the better stuff in the world comes from Korea and Japan, so the components that cause the repairs don't fall fail half as often. The trick, of course, is to get a Japanese or Korean made vehicle that isn't full of Chinese and Malaysian and wherever else labor is cheap electrical and mechanical parts.
Then there's idiocy like the new Mercedes that doesn't even have a dipstick. Better hope the computers catch that leak before it goes bad.... :sick:
And the shame about it is that while the cars are horrendously pricey to fix and maintain, and the electronics and accessories are crap, the engine and drivetrain in them are some of the best examples of engineering on the planet.
For instance, the Mercedes engines are fantastic. But the rest of the car isn't put together any better than a Chevrolet(and for 2-3x the price, it had better be a LOT better in those areas) Don't even get me started on the pleather/MB Tex nonsense... Even Ford has better "leather" seats than that stuff.
The OEM oil filter for a 2010 Accord V6 costs $7.00
The OEM oil filter for a 2010 328i costs $10.00
The OEM air filter element for a 2010 Accord V6 costs $26.13
The OEM air filter element for a 2010 328i costs $22.95
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Brakes and struts and other "consumables" are also high for Toyota as well.
Note - the cheapest cars to maintain and fix parts-wise tend to be Nissan/Infiniti and certain GM models(mostly their heavy duty trucks and Isuzu models).
note - real shame Isuzu doesn't make passenger cars any more.
http://www.isuzu.co.jp/world/product/dmax/index.html
You'll note, though, that most of the SUVs and trucks are re-badged and sold in the U.S. under the Chevrolet badge. (the one above is called the Chevrolet Colorado in the U.S, of course)
This is not true, Nissan/Infiniti is the most expensive to repair out of the Asian brands.Toyota is the cheapest, my mechanic speacializes in Japanese cars and he tells me this all the time.He even shows me the invoices for the parts he orders and warns me never to go with Infiniti/Nissan.
I'll believe these guys. The last time I had to get part for my 4Runner, the Toyota dealer was an absolute ripoff. Now, true, there were cheap aftermarket parts to be had, but I can guarantee that since we're talking luxury and sport sedans and the like here, Lexus isn't going to be "cheap" to fix.
If you look at the lists from 2008, it shows Isuzu(Chevrolet trucks), Infiniti, Mitsubishi, and Hyundai as taking most of the entire list. Toyota isn't there and neither are any of the European brands.(or Cadillac)
edit:
If you go back to 2006, Toyota is on the list. But since then, they are suddenly a lot less reliable and a lot more expensive to fix. Something has gone wrong with Toyota in the last 3-4 years and I'd no longer recommend anything they make other than their trucks/SUVs.
As far as reliability I don't know anyone complaining about the lack thereof, except here.
Me I put a 1000 miles on a rented Camry SE recently and I loved it. I'm thinking of buying one. If there is one company that will make good on issues, it's Toyota, the other is Honda.
I owned a Lexus for a brief while, $275 for an oil change...I think not. My Infiniti owning friends go to Jiffy Lube. If you mean the cars are cheaper if you take them to Jiffy Lube, I can buy into that, else it's a load of bunk.
1. I bet Lexus uses the synthetic oil for that $275. So, you only need to go there once a year instead of 3-4 times a year.
2. The Infiniti dealers in Philly only charge ~$40 for an oil change w/ hand wash. However, they usually have the oil change coupons for about $25-30.
I don't buy that for a second. No way was it just "an oil change."
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
We are talking what happens after warranty when the tranny fails, water pump fails, alternator fails, o2 sensor fails, fuel pump fails, engine blows up. How much does an Infiniti alternator cost, vs a BMW, vs a Lexus?
The first three years, 4 for BMW, are covered by B2B you can take the car to the dealer for warranty work and Jiffy Lube for oil changes. You can spend as much, or as little as you want on service. There are people who are DYI and people who bring it to the dealer.
It's when the warranty expires what are the price of the parts and labor, and to even the playing field I'd suggest using dealer rates, not third party mechanics.
Well, no. The cost of the "free" maintenance is baked into the purchase price of the car. You pay for it up front.
I owned a Lexus for a brief while, $275 for an oil change
Why would you go to the dealer for routine service? My wife has been driving Lexuses since the late 90s & is on her 2nd car. Our excellent independent mechanic, who takes care of all non-warranty work on our cars (we also have a BMW), charges $25 for an oil change.
Again, why would anyone go to a new car dealer for a plain vanilla oil change?
Well yes, I bought a car, paid a price and now I pay $0 for the next four years.
Why would you go to the dealer for routine service? My wife has been driving Lexuses since the late 90s & is on her 2nd car. Our excellent independent mechanic, who takes care of all non-warranty work on our cars (we also have a BMW), charges $25 for an oil change.
Again, why would anyone go to a new car dealer for a plain vanilla oil change?
That is exactly *part* of the point. The rest of the point is how expensive are these vehicles when the warranty expires. There are those who believe Infinitis are cheap to own. I assert all of the vehicles are cheap to own for the first three years. But to calculate the costs, one has to assume, either all third party maintenance or all dealer maintenance...except for BMWs.
My assertion is after the B2B an Infiniti water pump costs as much to install as a Lexus water pump as a BMW water pump...or at least close enough for government work.
Agreed. This has been my experience with my BMW, which has been out of warranty since the middle of 2005. Here again, our independent mechanic provides the labor, & his rates are obviously the same whether he's working on the BMW or the Lexus.
I think that people who say that Japanese luxury cars are cheaper to maintain than their German counterparts have something else in mind -- namely, that the German car is likely to require expensive repairs sooner (earlier in the car's life) & possibly more often than the Japanese car. So while it may be true that the cost of replacing part X is pretty much the same for a BMW as it is for an Infiniti, this part typically lasts for 125K miles on the Infiniti but usually fails at the 90K mark on BMWs.
I do know that when I owned a Mercedes a few years ago(and a couple of Volvos back before Ford ruined them), they cost significantly more for the parts and often there was no aftermarket replacement for switches, accessories, and computer modules. I think what finally did it for me was when it cost me nearly $30 for a factory shift knob replacement for my Volvo. (don't get me started on stuff like keys)
The raw data suggests the following arrangement::
1:Infiniti
2:Lexus(Toyota is now almost as expensive for parts as Volvo, unfortunately. Their transmissions are a known hugely expensive problem as well)
3:
4:Cadillac/Acura (they tend to switch back and forth - Acura breaks less often, Cadillac costs less to fix - nearly a tie as a result)
5:
6:
7:
8:(all the rest start here)
There's a tiny gap between Lexus and Infiniti, then a small one to Cadillac(major improvement in the last decade) and Acura, and then a large drop down to the rest. I think what does it is that it's really Nissan, Toyota, and Honda versus the rest. In Japan, there is only one product line - and the premium models are just that - the upper end models of the normal line.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
edit: I checked TCO. Try it..it contradicts your assertions and is line with some common sense. BMW 328X, Lexus 350, G37X are all within a few bucks of one another. BMW 335iX is $10 grand more...of course the 335 leaves the others in the dust in both performance and TCO. Camry 4c more than $20 grand less.
Actually, no. The depreciation costs in the first 3 years dwarf the maintenance costs in the out years. You just don't see those costs until you sell.
One only worries about depreciation if one is going to sell almost immediately. It is not a financially good decision to buy a car with selling it in three years in the back of your mind. If you are going to do that leasing is available.
It's no secret I love BMWs, but if I get the car I love, it's nice to have $0 maintenance for four years. In today's economy even the super-rich worry about their dollars.
I love BMWs too - I own one - but I don't think that BMW's "Ultimate Service" (their name) program will influence my decision when the time comes to replace my car (probably next year).
It might be a tie-breaker for me if I had to choose between a BMW 335i & a comparably priced car from Audi or Mercedes. But I don't particularly like Mercedes & having owned one Audi, which was nothing short of horrific, I'll probably never buy another.
It's much more likely that the final decision will come down to a BMW 335i versus an Infiniti G. And the price gap between the 2 cars is so great that the amount of money that "Ultimate Service" would save me - $649.40 over 4 years according to BMW's web site - is just laughably trivial.
That doesn't mean that I might not buy another BMW, but it does mean that "Ultimate Service" won't be a factor in my thinking.
This is a silly argument we are having. Even if you drive a car for 10 years, if it cost $45K new and $5k in 10 years = $40K = $4k/year in depreciation.
If you buy a new Camry for $30K and it costs $3K in 10 years = $27K = $2.7K/year.
So the ELLPS is $1.3K/year more expensive due to depreciation. Which is why I'm saying that maintenance should not be a big factor. You would have to average $1300/year MORE in maintenance costs on the Camry PER YEAR to equal the much larger cost of the ELLPS purchase. So the ELLPS is a lot more expensive to own. And that is why even a grand or two every few years in maintenance costs is not that big. It has nothing to do with how long you keep the vehicle. Maintenance is not a large part of the ownership costs. And I haven't even brought up the costs for insurance, etc.
So if you like an ELLPS and you can afford it, buy or lease it and don't worry about the maintenance costs, or perhaps you can't afford the vehicle in the first place. If you want a real worry, then the relative risk of breaking down or of time in the shop is probably more important, since that is a convenience issue rather than a cost issue.
1: Depreciation isn't a factor in comparing cost to fix/repair/upkeep a vehicle. Also, neither is stuff like insurance. Yes, it matters, but not to compare which vehicles are the least expensive to keep running(you really only lose money when you sell the car, if you ever do - or to be more accurate, you only GET BACK the difference in depreciation when/if you sell it)
2: The first years where the factory warranty is in place artificially skew the results. BMW comes out well by this measure because it does cost you nothing to keep the car running, or nearly so. But try that with a 5 year old BMW...
TCO is pretty worthless, really.
Just looking at the data I posted - if you go back to 2005, you'll see Lexus is taking about half of the spots. Infiniti and Cadillac vastly improved their quality since then and Lexus slipped a bit down to where Honda/Acura is.(still very good, especially if you get a car with manual)
link title
The problem is that costs to fix things is skyrocketing. A replacement transmission in a Camry, for instance, runs over $3500 now. That's just silly. Bumpers and other components that get scuffed or cracked are hideously expensive. Want to replace a Toyota or BMW or well, almost ANY car's headlight assembly?
So if one company can come in with less frequency and/or less cost per part than the competition, it wins. Mercedes, Audi, and BMW flat-out fail here. Volvo is also notoriously pricey to fix. Acura and Infiniti are a bit better, as is Cadillac(they take grief about not using the best newest tech, but then again, that's less stuff to break as well) Toyota just has problems recently and I'd not recommend anything with an automatic or ETC(electronic throttle control) on it from them.(that's 80%+ of their line currently.
Gives me a flash back to last year when I wrote off my Q45 (wasn't that bad of an accident). ONE headlight assembly came in over $1200...ouch
For example: In my area a rebuilt G35 tranny is almost $2K, but a rebuilt Camry tranny is $700. Not sure where you get your figures from. A headlight assembly for a G37 is nearly $800. Ouch.
If you are saying an Infiniti tranny breaks less often than a Camry tranny after the warranty period, you would have to point to some credible source for me to believe it. Not just a CR survey.
But it still boils down to will *your* car have an issue, and if it does what will it take to repair it. My BMW can be cheaper to own on a parts basis against a used Accord if nothing breaks on it and the Accord is constantly under repair.
With that sort of potential repair and the issues that keep coming up(plus the new Prius recall, now!) I can't recommend Toyota other than for their trucks.
The other potential reason for the difference is that CTS trannies may be crap, you get what you pay for.
I have no problems with Toyota, I would buy any of their cars in a heartbeat, recalls or not, doesn't bother me in the least. I really like the Camry SE and am mulling over buying it.
Couldn't agree more. Throw in transmission hesitation. I had a hesitating 2005 V6 Highlander. You could never pinpoint when it would happen but it did several times a day. I reached the end of my rope when it had a full 2 second hesitation while highway passing. When it kicked in I almost had whiplash the car took off so fast. Very dangerous. It was dumped after 1 year as the TSB didn't work. I was done after 21 years of loyalty and great vehicles. The worst part being Toyota refusing to acknowledge the problem. To my knowledge it still exists. Finally, the Prius brake issue. Toyota has some quality control issues going on right now.
Hope this clarifies your confusion.
That said, manual transmission Toyota/Lexus models are fine. They have no computers in the way and are as solid as a tank. The same can be said tor Mercedes as well. *If* you get a C or E class sedan with manual(yes, I know, only automatics normally make it over here in the U.S.), they are extremely reliable cars. Stripped of all of the electronic junk and transmission and throttle and everything else that tries to out-think you, they are perfectly fine vehicles.
Now, the real question I guess is what out there that is a "luxury car" doesn't have all of that technological garbage applied to it? I'm unfortunately having a hard time getting any names on my list, as least for stuff that I can buy in the U.S.
In my 3 years of ownership of a 2007 328i, I had to take her in 3 times for "unscheduled maintenance". Each and everyone it was due to malfunction of some kind of electronic control unit, and the solution each time was to replace some "module". These are repairs that cannot be performed by mechanics, no matter how good they are, not to mention the expensive "diagnosis equipment" they would have to purchase. Other than these electronic issues, I never had any problem what so ever. However, it is these electronic problems that keep me from owning another German car because they are notorious on electronic components. I do not want to be in a position where I have no choice but to go to the dealer for repair after the warranty expires.
Your original point, which is a silly statement, is an Infiniti is cheaper to own than a Camry. I guess as silly as it sounds, if you live in LA it's true. In the rest of the world, it's a laughable thought.
Anyone who buys an Infiniti thinking it's the cheapest thing around to maintain is foolish. I could make the statement BMW for the first four years is the cheapest car to maintain in the world and I would be correct and factual. Does it tell the whole story? No.
Then we should be discussing "repair costs" not "maintenance costs." Maintenance is maintenance, as in the manufacturer's suggested maintenance.
Not to mention, one person's maintenance is usually not comparable to another's. For instance, I may like to maintain my car by changing the oil every 4k with synthetic, while someone else with the same car may prefer every 7k with off-the-shelf oil.
You don't find this sort of variance with repair costs (as long as both go to a dealer, that is).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'd call Intellichoice as reputable a source as Edmunds or any of the other research sites. If you look back 3-4 years, Lexus and Toyota *were* at the top, as you probably would expect. But in the last few years, Toyota has had massive problems with its entire line of vehicles that they've been fairly good at hiding and denying until very recently. It's not surprise that one of the other Japanese makers has managed to move into the #1 position as a result.
2009
http://www.intellichoice.com/top10/Top_List/year/2009/list/Lowest%20Repair%20Cos- - ts
2006
http://www.intellichoice.com/top10/Top_List/year/2006/list/Lowest%20Repair%20Cos- ts
It's been a very hard three years for Toyota.
overall, I think my Acura has been the cheapest to maintain but don't get me wrong, both the Infiniti and MB are not that much more expensive and I've been pretty happy at the amount each one has been to maintain!!!
I am talking about repair, which is after the warranty expires. How much does it cost to get brakes replaced, altenator, transmission, water pump, ECU, light assembly, sunroof etc. A Lexus, BMW, Acura, Infiniti, Audi will have a higher repair bill than a Camry and Honda. This assumes you go to the dealer for service.
As long as nothing goes wrong with the car after the warranty expires, oil changes are cheap. The major services run into some money. A friend paid $275 dollars for his 7500 mile service on his Acura. Sure he could have gone to Jiffy Lube and saved a few bucks, but he wanted the dealer experience.
A BMW is the cheapest car to maintain because it costs you $0 for four years, but what happens after four years?