I'm not certain when the "new" TL is officially released, but I think it's being call an 09, so you may be able to get the existing model for a bargain.
I haven't heard wonderful things regarding the TL mileage in the city; but I think the highway is reasonable
"No car in this class has wonderful city mileage."
Well, I guess it's all relative, but my new TSX is getting 30 driving to work and 26 in stop-and-go surface street duty. On a recent drive to Tucson & back, it was at 33-34, and that's with a new, tight engine. I'm looking forward to a couple mpg better by the time I've got 10K on the motor.
Compared to where I'm coming from, that's borderline wonderful.
Actually bgdc, you are right, the A4 2.0T is definitely not underpowered as the TSX. However, the turbo lag is just so craptacular so it's almost like pick your poison...
Turbo lag on a 2.0T? Uhhh, I've gotta tell you, I owned a couple of 1980s vintage turbo charged cars and know very well what turbo lag is, and what ever it is, the 2.0T doesn't have it. Errr, well, I suppose you could induce turbo lag by sidestepping the clutch at a whopping 900 rpms, but come on, how real world is that?
At least that's how I felt after having one for 2 weeks as a rental. The BMW 3.0TT is the one that eliminates about 99% of the turbo lag. Drive the 2 back to back then you'll understand.
Sorry, I've got to beg to differ. I've driven an A3 2.0T on several occasions and not once have I been tempted to say, "Gee, that turbo lag is annoying."
I am a big proponent of diesels, but short term the prices are sky high. My driver had to fuel up our company truck today. He said he was very low and had to get fuel before going downtown (Manhattan). I thought my Dad was going to have a heart attack when he saw we paid $4.99/gallon for diesel!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
". . .how about "everything in this class except the TSX" since it is a 4-banger."
Okay, I'm guilty. I don't care so much about acceleration, but I do like to go around corners. This is much of why I would have bought a 1.9 or 2.0 litre diesel anytime in the last several years, had one been available in an RWD or AWD car. Now that the 335d BMW is almost available (only with an automatic), I'm nonplussed. Buckets of power doesn't row my boat, especially if the car isn't available with a manual transmission.
It may be interesting to some people that luxury (or something resembling it) and handling doesn't have to come with neck-snapping acceleration to qualify as "entry-level luxury."
Here is a cu from Automobile mag regarding a face lft for the 3'er and a ti option.
The good stuff could start arriving as early as later this summer, with the face-lifted 2009 3-series. That car is under consideration for a tii version that, in addition to styling tweaks, would include M3 brakes, nineteen-inch wheels, a sport suspension, a dual-clutch transmission, and increased boost pressure that would bump the output of the 3.0-liter twin-turbo engine from 300 hp to about 355 hp.
Drop the heavy stuff - sunroof, 19 inch wheels, power seats, insulation, worthless gizmos (self drying brakes, dual hvac, auto windshield wipers) and finally ditch the metal fenders for plastics.Maybe they can get 150-200 lbs out of the car. Finally, ditch the inline 6 for a twin turbo 4, and lose another 200-300 lbs. Ah, now you've got a fun sedan at 3100 lbs.
I propose BMW spawn a separate (tii) division that caters to lighter, funner cars; howeber, that would undoubtedly be seen as *gasp* "diluting the brand".
Isn't that what the 1 series is meant to achieve. The tii based on the 3 series with 350 hp is just going to cannibalize on the M3, isnt that where the higher margins are? The 135i will probably do the same for the 335i.
But at less than 3,400 lbs, it's not that bad, is it? Considering all cars seem to have spent too much time at the drive-thru, I think it is worth considering this chassis could be trimmed to around 3,200 lbs under true tii engineering.
I don't know...you guys know better than I. What else is available new at a 135i level of return (to a true enthusiast bent) in the market today? Yes, the argument for past BMW marvels aside, what is comparable today? Sooner or later, the old stands down to the creativity of tomorrow.
Lancer EVO? STI? IS-F? RS-4?
All these are "Super Size Me Please" variants of the past also. Is the 1'er the best of the worst for precision driving dynamics at the end of the day or a last-ditch effort to entice the past audience back into the show?
"Drop the heavy stuff - sunroof, 19 inch wheels, power seats, insulation, worthless gizmos (self drying brakes, dual hvac, auto windshield wipers) and finally ditch the metal fenders for plastics.Maybe they can get 150-200 lbs out of the car."
I heartily concur.
"Finally, ditch the inline 6 for a twin turbo 4, and lose another 200-300 lbs. Ah, now you've got a fun sedan at 3100 lbs."
Oops, ya lost me there. Why? Well, several reasons actually:
1) I'm a fan of smooth engines. The I6 that BMW uses is an engine type that is naturally in perfect balance, meanwhile, I4 engines are natural shakers with considerable second order (i.e. twice per revolution) vibrations. Granted, these vibrations can be counteracted with the use of balance shafts, however, said shafts add needless weight and complexity to the engine.
2) like I said, I'm a fan of smooth engines, and in the world of four-stroke engines, unless an engine has at least five cylinders, it becomes a "push-me-pull-you" affair with the engine driving the flywheel and drive train during the power stroke of any one cylinder, and then the drivetrain and flywheel driving the engine between each power stroke. With BMWs I6 engine, not only do you get an engine that is in perfect mechanical balance, but you get one that is always supplying power to the flywheel and drivetrain.
3) While I don't have the actual weights, I'm thinking that the composite metal blocked engine of the 3.0 liter engine in the E90 325i, 328i, and 330i is rather lighter than say Audi's iron blocked 2.0T. With the I6 engine design, all that is needed for vibration free engine is a block, a crank, and six piston/rod assemblies, With a high specific output blown I4, you typically have to cast the block out of lamellar graphite cast iron (GJL). Once you have the block, in addition to the crank and four piston/rod assemblies, you need to add two balance shafts (and the associated drive mechanisms), a turbocharger or two (and necessary plumbing and intercoolers and such), and a heavy flywheel that can help smooth out the torque reversals from the intermittent application of power.
All-in-all, I'm thinking that I'd MUCH rather have a naturally aspirated I6 than a blown I4. ;-)
"what is comparable today? Sooner or later, the old stands down to the creativity of tomorrow.
Lancer EVO? STI? IS-F? RS-4?"
Unfortunately, there's nothing comparable. 3500# is what these cars weigh today. The only current "lightweight" sports car with a backseat that I can think of is the RX-8 (and Porsche 911).
That's why I keep my E30. It's basically a Honda S2000 with a hardtop and backseat.
I guess I don't see how adding a mere two cylinders transforms an out of balance engine into one that perfectly balanced. While I agree that a 4 cylinder engine probably has more NVH (noise, vibration & harshness) than a 6, an 8 (either a V-type or straight 8 like my grandmothers 50 Buick) should be still better, with a V12 or V16 at the optimum.
Well, whether you "see" it or not, it's the truth. Fact, I-6, H-6, V-12, and H-12 engines are naturally in balance for all free forces of both the first and second order, and free moments of the first and second order, and to the best of my knowledge are the only commonly built piston engines that are naturally in balance, and as such, naturally smooth.
A discussion of the whys and hows of this balance issue is complex and long winded, and is way too over the top for the purposes of this forum. If you don't believe it, buy yourself a Bosch Automotive Handbook (I have one and it is a phenomenal wealth of information), or you can look at any number of web sites that discuss such things. Here are a few:
I actually first walked away from the car last Sunday after initially looking at it because it was an Automatic. A few voices in my head (roadburner & fedlawman) told me I was crazy. I'm actually going to learn to perform the maintenience on the car myself. Once I get it running well, then I'll swap out the slushbox for a 5-speed.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I looked over your references, and while wikipedia is a good source it is not always entirely correct. They commented that straight eight engines did not have OHV which is not correct as the Buick Straight Eight had OHV beginning in the 1930's.
I see your point about the straight six, but I still think that a nicely balanced V8 may be smoother running. Most sixes are V6 designs and are not as good.
It was drummed into me many years ago that the "smoothest", i.e. best naturally-balanced engines are 6's and 12's. 4's and 8's will always be less well naturally-balanced. No, can't explain why now but no doubt some of the pro engineers will be able to. Not sure about V6's as we didn't have many of those back in my day but we did have quite a few nice straight-6's; and they were very smooth if not terribly powerful by today's standards.
If you look at shipo's references and follow on with some of the other references you will find that the V6 needs counter balancing to run smoothly. With counter balancing the V8 is very smooth running. I think shipo's point was that the inline six without counter balancing is smooth running, while other engines require some sort of balancing.
As I see it, the size of an inline six for any particular vehicle will be limited by how much space is given to the hood length. For the same hood length, a V-engine will take up less space and can therefore be larger than the inline six, for up to 12 cylinders.
I liked the comment about how "an increase in boost pressure should bring the hp from 300 to 355". This is interesting, considering that many of the available reviews on the 335's performance have indicated that the book 300hp claim is very likely low-balling the actual output.
What a perfect idea -- make a 335 tii version, claim that there is 55 more hp than the standard engine (when it's actually exactly the same), and charge $5000 more for the 'modification'.
Inline engines also have much less mechanical complexity. V engines are a design nightmare - angles and extra connecting rods and multiple camshafts and...
That adds weight as well. And worsens efficiency. So as a result, you can make a smaller I-6 than a V6 and get the same results. So often, you can fit the I-6 in the car as well as a V6.
But GM and Ford never really designed I-6 engines - at least not recently. So they trudge along with their overly complex V engines. BMW and Mercedes started out with inline engines and still use a lot of them.
As for the weight, 3400lbs is just about what my 87 Buick Park Ave weighed. That's hideously bloated for such a small car. It should be closer to 2600lbs.
Might as well make room for this car in this segment. I havent seen what else it has to offer but it will slaughter a lot of the pseudo ELLPS. 295 pound feet of torque, pretty impressive.
GM does have on OHC truck I6 that was used on the mid-size SUVs. So GM has an inline six that is a recent design, but it was not design for cars. I think that the torque and power output of an engine is related to the size of the engine and an inline engine does not have more torque just because it is an inline.
The 87 Park Avenue was bigger than the current 3-series which is just a heavy.
Just because two "contributors" don't like the car, it doesn't mean that we should NOT talk about the Saab here.
AFAIC, the Saab is considered a competitor in this category, and so does just about every other automotive source that's out there. They may not like it, but it's out there, offering similar performance and items/features, for a similar price.
It starts at 42k, there are only sending 600 to the US, is only available in black. If it were a mass car like everything else in ELLPS I would have happily proceeded with the argument but I cant just do that for the sake of it.
Comments
but the mileage is.
I'm not certain when the "new" TL is officially released, but I think it's being call an 09, so you may be able to get the existing model for a bargain.
I haven't heard wonderful things regarding the TL mileage in the city; but I think the highway is reasonable
No car in this class has wonderful city mileage.
Well, I guess it's all relative, but my new TSX is getting 30 driving to work and 26 in stop-and-go surface street duty. On a recent drive to Tucson & back, it was at 33-34, and that's with a new, tight engine. I'm looking forward to a couple mpg better by the time I've got 10K on the motor.
Compared to where I'm coming from, that's borderline wonderful.
j/k
Best Regards,
Shipo
Yup.
At least that's how I felt after having one for 2 weeks as a rental. The BMW 3.0TT is the one that eliminates about 99% of the turbo lag. Drive the 2 back to back then you'll understand.
Best Regards,
Shipo
What do you want me to do? Say that I am wrong and apologize?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Okay, I'm guilty. I don't care so much about acceleration, but I do like to go around corners. This is much of why I would have bought a 1.9 or 2.0 litre diesel anytime in the last several years, had one been available in an RWD or AWD car. Now that the 335d BMW is almost available (only with an automatic), I'm nonplussed. Buckets of power doesn't row my boat, especially if the car isn't available with a manual transmission.
It may be interesting to some people that luxury (or something resembling it) and handling doesn't have to come with neck-snapping acceleration to qualify as "entry-level luxury."
YMMV
The good stuff could start arriving as early as later this summer, with the face-lifted 2009 3-series. That car is under consideration for a tii version that, in addition to styling tweaks, would include M3 brakes, nineteen-inch wheels, a sport suspension, a dual-clutch transmission, and increased boost pressure that would bump the output of the 3.0-liter twin-turbo engine from 300 hp to about 355 hp.
Sounds good to me. What do you think?
Regards,
OW
I propose BMW spawn a separate (tii) division that caters to lighter, funner cars; howeber, that would undoubtedly be seen as *gasp* "diluting the brand".
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I don't know...you guys know better than I. What else is available new at a 135i level of return (to a true enthusiast bent) in the market today? Yes, the argument for past BMW marvels aside, what is comparable today? Sooner or later, the old stands down to the creativity of tomorrow.
Lancer EVO? STI? IS-F? RS-4?
All these are "Super Size Me Please" variants of the past also. Is the 1'er the best of the worst for precision driving dynamics at the end of the day or a last-ditch effort to entice the past audience back into the show?
Regards,
OW
I heartily concur.
"Finally, ditch the inline 6 for a twin turbo 4, and lose another 200-300 lbs. Ah, now you've got a fun sedan at 3100 lbs."
Oops, ya lost me there. Why? Well, several reasons actually:
1) I'm a fan of smooth engines. The I6 that BMW uses is an engine type that is naturally in perfect balance, meanwhile, I4 engines are natural shakers with considerable second order (i.e. twice per revolution) vibrations. Granted, these vibrations can be counteracted with the use of balance shafts, however, said shafts add needless weight and complexity to the engine.
2) like I said, I'm a fan of smooth engines, and in the world of four-stroke engines, unless an engine has at least five cylinders, it becomes a "push-me-pull-you" affair with the engine driving the flywheel and drive train during the power stroke of any one cylinder, and then the drivetrain and flywheel driving the engine between each power stroke. With BMWs I6 engine, not only do you get an engine that is in perfect mechanical balance, but you get one that is always supplying power to the flywheel and drivetrain.
3) While I don't have the actual weights, I'm thinking that the composite metal blocked engine of the 3.0 liter engine in the E90 325i, 328i, and 330i is rather lighter than say Audi's iron blocked 2.0T. With the I6 engine design, all that is needed for vibration free engine is a block, a crank, and six piston/rod assemblies, With a high specific output blown I4, you typically have to cast the block out of lamellar graphite cast iron (GJL). Once you have the block, in addition to the crank and four piston/rod assemblies, you need to add two balance shafts (and the associated drive mechanisms), a turbocharger or two (and necessary plumbing and intercoolers and such), and a heavy flywheel that can help smooth out the torque reversals from the intermittent application of power.
All-in-all, I'm thinking that I'd MUCH rather have a naturally aspirated I6 than a blown I4. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
So, how difficult do you think it's going to be to delete the "A"? :shades:
Best Regards,
Shipo
I'm guessing $1500-$2500?
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Lancer EVO? STI? IS-F? RS-4?"
Unfortunately, there's nothing comparable. 3500# is what these cars weigh today. The only current "lightweight" sports car with a backseat that I can think of is the RX-8 (and Porsche 911).
That's why I keep my E30. It's basically a Honda S2000 with a hardtop and backseat.
An inline 6 is better than a 60 degree V6.
Regards,
OW
A discussion of the whys and hows of this balance issue is complex and long winded, and is way too over the top for the purposes of this forum. If you don't believe it, buy yourself a Bosch Automotive Handbook (I have one and it is a phenomenal wealth of information), or you can look at any number of web sites that discuss such things. Here are a few:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_balance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_engine
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/html/Diagnosis/engine_speed_related.htm- -
Best Regards,
Shipo
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I missed that part of your original message. Never mind, you shouldn't have bought it. :P
I see your point about the straight six, but I still think that a nicely balanced V8 may be smoother running. Most sixes are V6 designs and are not as good.
As I see it, the size of an inline six for any particular vehicle will be limited by how much space is given to the hood length. For the same hood length, a V-engine will take up less space and can therefore be larger than the inline six, for up to 12 cylinders.
What a perfect idea -- make a 335 tii version, claim that there is 55 more hp than the standard engine (when it's actually exactly the same), and charge $5000 more for the 'modification'.
That adds weight as well. And worsens efficiency. So as a result, you can make a smaller I-6 than a V6 and get the same results. So often, you can fit the I-6 in the car as well as a V6.
But GM and Ford never really designed I-6 engines - at least not recently. So they trudge along with their overly complex V engines. BMW and Mercedes started out with inline engines and still use a lot of them.
As for the weight, 3400lbs is just about what my 87 Buick Park Ave weighed. That's hideously bloated for such a small car. It should be closer to 2600lbs.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=124967
Yes, it's a FWD-bias Haldex system - ie garbage.
3800 lbs.
And that legendary saab performance. Oh right, it's a saab...
The 87 Park Avenue was bigger than the current 3-series which is just a heavy.
Regards,
OW
Just because two "contributors" don't like the car, it doesn't mean that we should NOT talk about the Saab here.
AFAIC, the Saab is considered a competitor in this category, and so does just about every other automotive source that's out there. They may not like it, but it's out there, offering similar performance and items/features, for a similar price.
I like the way you think though