Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

blueguydotcom

I still have fantasies about owning honda's silky 6 speed! The TSX tranny made me so happy.

lovemyclk

OK, how about a Lotus Elise? Well over $30K and under 200HP. My point was to drive home one of the many reasons people love to DRIVE BMW's... balance - me included. I drive a 2003 530SP and find the straight-6 one of the finest engines I've had the pleasure to drive - and I've owned/driven everything from the Subie WRX STi to 911's. "Hiccuping" and "stuttering" are not qualities I've observed in my car and doubt if any other BMW owners with the 3.0L will concur unless they are using 87-octane fuel. Glad you are personally more impressed with your 1.8T and 2.0 Audi/VW powerplants.

Your comments regarding Ward's are interesting given the Holy Wars that have erupted around here based upon "magazine comparo's". Don't think I'd dismiss Ward's as easily as you have - what is your opinion based upon... lousy engineering expertise?... marketing dollars in reviewer's pockets?...

You can take anything in print with a grain of salt. Important thing is to "see for yourself", as each person's objectivity is distinct. I enjoy reading opinions, but that does not shape my own until I have seat-of-the-pants evidence to form my own opinions based upon my personal value system.

jrock65

In this review, the IS350 got a 0-60 time of 6.0s.

potemkin

No, they're not that bad. The 5-speeds in my E36 318ti and E46 325i are 'notchy' between 1st and 2nd, but it doesn't interfere with shifting in the least. I've been driving BMW manuals for 10 years now and feel they're better than most. It's as good as most any in this category (confess: I didn't test the TL). The 6-speed in the M-B C230 I tested last year was the best in this category. By using the word 'slow' I think Blueguy is comparing all manuals to a DSG. A DSG is faster, can be smoother, wouldn't be 'balky' or 'notchy', but, personally, I'd take the worst manual in this category over the best DSG, but that's a personal preference (of course).

Out of category: A smattering of reviews I've read said the shifter in the Miata is the smoothest, but I didn't feel compelled to verify it.

blueguydotcom

Elise is a fun car but not an everyday driver.

"Hiccuping" and "stuttering" are not qualities I've observed in my car and doubt if any other BMW owners with the 3.0L will concur unless they are using 87-octane fuel.

To each his own. I use 91 in my 330i performance package. Ever since they replaced my blown ignition coils (known issue BMW blames on the supplier instead of admitting fault), my engine's run like a trash compactor.

You can take anything in print with a grain of salt. Important thing is to "see for yourself", as each person's objectivity is distinct. I enjoy reading opinions, but that does not shape my own until I have seat-of-the-pants evidence to form my own opinions based upon my personal value system.

Same here. I don't trust CR, magazines, Edmunds, Ward's or anyone else's views, awards, comparos or statements. I must experience the car for myself. I still think Audi's 2.0T is a better engineered engine than the 3.0 in my BMW.

blueguydotcom

By using the word 'slow' I think Blueguy is comparing all manuals to a DSG.

nope. A BMW tranny cannot keep up with a lightning fast shift - as in bam, clutch down, out of gear 2 into gear 3, gas, clutch out. The tranny binds and or it simply won't go into third. i can replicate this on my bro-in-law's 325i too. The tranny simply can't keep up with the kind of speed shifts I'm used to getting from Mazda/Honda trannies.

Love the DSG but still like the tactile feel of a clutch.

Out of category: A smattering of reviews I've read said the shifter in the Miata is the smoothest, but I didn't feel compelled to verify it.

Love miata manuals.

potemkin

"The tranny simply can't keep up with the kind of speed shifts I'm used to getting from Mazda/Honda trannies."

Hmmm... I go through all the gears as fast as my right arm and left leg will allow. Pretty sure I wasn't shifting the any of the others any quicker. My procedure is:

a) Clutch pedal down, gas pedal up, and moving out of gear all at the same time.
b) When my clutch foot hits bottom it comes right up and I'd better be in the next gear (or there'll be Heck to pay!), as the left foot is coming up the right one is going down.

The M-B felt better, but I doubt if I was shifting it any faster.

As far as 'bulky' and 'notchy', that describes the 6-speed in the R32 to a tee.

"Love miata manuals."

Noted. I'll have to get off my derriere one of these days and try one.

pat

... things are getting personal and that's not what we are here for. We need to keep our comments confined to the vehicles. We are not here to talk about each other and certainly not here to make personal criticisms.

Thanks.

lovemyclk

Guess one reason the new BMW M5 has the SMG is that a suitably slick 6-sp manual is not ready, although I hear one is coming. Will be interesting to see what BMW delivers to mate with the new V-10. If it's good, it should trickle down to the 5 and 3-series. Maybe the new 550 6-sp is better... someone posted that they drove the 550 6-sp in Germany and that it was FAST. Wonder what shift-feel was like in this new car?

I personally enjoy the 5-sp in the 3-series, but LOVE the Miata tranny. Honda S2000 is also sweet. Problem is that the Miata and S2000 are designed for Hobbit's and I'm a svelte 6'4"

pat

NO MORE personal comments, please. If you can't keep your message about the vehicles in this discussion, you need to not post at all.

If you believe that someone has posted something inappropriately, email me and let me review the situation.

There are NO circumstances that make attacking another member appropriate, none at all - see the Membership Agreement or email me if you have any questions.

150mphclub

Did you notice the asterisk regarding BMW's brake test. THE FREAKING BRAKES FAILED, and the car spun out, so they used figures from a previous years test. Give the BMW a zero for its brakes, like it deserved, and it doesn't even come in second. No wonder Mercedes didn't supply a C350 for the comparo. They knew it was fixed.

kdshapiro

The general consensus is that the 330i set a new standard. While some may not like the car in general, it has garnered high praise. While I think BMW probably should have made sure it supplied a car without defects, this is not the first time a car, German or Japanese has failed in a comparo, and it won't be the last. Given what the car manufacturers know about how these tests are conducted, they probably circulate a beater, although at times the mags comment how they get a brand new car.

So in order to have a comparo C/D did a reasonable thing. These comparos are to be taken with a grain of salt anyway. Althouth they are good to use as a data point in a discussion such as this.

pg48477

I have no problems with my E46 5MT either. I had a chance to drive both TL and TSX 6MT, Honda manuals do feel much softer and easier to shift.

pg48477

You know, I did experiance the same thing in my car from 2nd to 3rd. I thought I did not push the clutch all the way down, maybe it is trany. I was not be able to replicate this though.

oac

So in order to have a comparo C/D did a reasonable thing. These comparos are to be taken with a grain of salt anyway. Althouth they are good to use as a data point in a discussion such as this.

With a grain of salt indeed ! Here are the actual scores for the 330i in the "Vehicle" category: 8+7+3+4+3+7+9+7+9+0+17= 74. But C&D gave it 75, to yield the 1pt margin of victory for the Bimmer. Fuzzy math indeed !!! Meaning: overall the IS350 and 330i had the exact same final score = 212 pts. A tie for 1st. Overall, I'd say the test was rigged, cos a broken down car should score ZERO, and using previous yr's number shows how much they wanted the Bimmer to win.... So much for objectivity !

For those happy that I have left, dream on... Taking nothing away from the 3-er, it simply is not the ultimate driving machine. That is all hype !

For those who won't give the IS350 a test, you will be missing a great car. I'll surely wave bye to you as you watch my tail disappear in traffic in my IS350.

kdshapiro

"For those happy that I have left, dream on... Taking nothing away from the 3-er, it simply is not the ultimate driving machine. That is all hype !"

It may be hype, and it may be rigged. But as others have noted before, horsepower is not the end-all and be-all. That's the hype, you allude to. Just ask Infiniti. I'm sure BMW execs broke open the champagne when they read this review. Lexus gave the IS350 it's best shot, but it wasn't good enough.

If your goal is stop light racing and triple digits on the speedometer I'll wave as you pass.

150mphclub

In order to have a reasonable comparo, I gave the kid who couldn't read a B so he could graduate. He just put the wrong part on your car.

kdshapiro

And your point is what? Magazines are different or the same as college educations?

johnny420

Thanks for the input on BMW trannies. I guess from now on my point of reference for transmissions will always be the TSX's 6MT :P

Now I just have to drive the E90. I'm very curious to compare its driving dynamics with the TSX. I'll drive both the 325i and the 330i.

Johnny

blueguydotcom

While I dig the TSX, it's the tranny, reliability and value I like. The e90 is far, imho, beyond the last gen 3 (e46) for handling that all the competition is in major catch-up mode now. Sublime is the only way to describe the way the new car feels with a sport package and a manual.

potemkin

"For those who won't give the IS350 a test, you will be missing a great car."

As far as I'm concerned, it can't qualify as a great car unless there's a working clutch pedal next to the brake pedal. An IS250 with a 6-speed might, just might, qualify in my book.

If it ain't got a stick... you're just a passenger no matter where you're sitting.

"I'll surely wave bye to you as you watch my tail disappear in traffic in my IS350."

And I'll be sure to wave back as I pass the gas station.

johnny420

Yeah, I find this intriguing, 'cause the TSX is the best handling car I've owned. I can rail corners in that car, even with the stock all-season tires. Nice, quick steering rack. Handles mid-corner bumps well. It does push pretty hard at the limit.

The idea that a car, like the E90, can be that much better gets me pretty hyped to try it. I've been a big fan of BMW for a long time, but I've never driven one. Or in one.

Like I said, I've been nursing a bimmer jones somethin' fierce! :shades:

Johnny

johnny420

As far as I'm concerned, it can't qualify as a great car unless there's a working clutch pedal next to the brake pedal. An IS250 with a 6-speed might, just might, qualify in my book. If it ain't got a stick... you're just a passenger no matter where you're sitting.

Agreed. I'm not sure the IS350 is a direct competitor to the 3 series without the manual.

Johnny

blueguydotcom

I was that way for a long time. Once I got into the seat of a 330i with a manual, I finally got it. I had to buy one after that.

laurasdada

"If it ain't got a stick... you're just a passenger no matter where you're sitting."

Thank goodness. Now I don't really have to pay attention to the road when I'm "driving." I can concentrate more on my crossword, coffe, email etc. 'cuz I'm not really a driver! Phew!

Or any of the race series drivers that use the paddle shifters, do they know they're just along for the ride?

kdshapiro

Those cars have DSGs, not auto's. (although I'm sure you already knew that) There no power sapping torque converter. To me the DSG/SMG/SSG or what have you is the best compromise between auto and manual.

blueguydotcom

Race series drivers using paddle shifters are controlling gearing with clutches.

People driving slushbox automatics are not doing anything remotely similar. There's a big, big difference between a sequential manual or direct shift gearbox and a torque converter equipped video-gamey tiptronic/sportmatic/steptronic.

I've been driving an automatic car for a week now. I'm bored to death. There's barely any engine control - even with dorky shift buttons or paddles. My interest in my drive time has gone from paying total attention to passively sitting in long lines even when the lane beside me is moving. Why bother pulling out? I'll have to endure the excrutiatingly slow shifts and harsh downshifting one gets from automatics. Honestly, my drive with an automatic has turned me into another listless worker bee either heading to the hive or away from it.

The only time this week that I felt in control and alive - I had my bro-in-law's 325i manual for about 2 hours. Heaven.

oac

Geez... I didn't realise that 60%+ of ALL BMW *drivers* with slushboxes aren't really driving their wonderful machines, eh ? Even owners of 745/750/760, the M5 ultra-super-duper performance machine, and tons of AMGs out there with slush boxes must be drinking coffee and putting on make-ups while in these cars... By your logic these people are simply poseurs and not drivers... See how ridiculous that is ?

I drove plenty of cars with sticks in my lifetime, but I am not enamored by it. Its simply a much more involved way of driving, that's about it. But if you live in your car, maybe its important. Here in SoCal with the constant stop-and-go traffic, having an auto tranny is convenient.

You can look down your nose at those with slush boxes while your small band of stick-loving drivers continues to dwindle by the second.... Before long their would not be a single true manual to be found in any car. Then what'll you all do ?? Ride a bike to work ? Hehehehehe

designman

Actually, a less-than-skilled driver with an automatic will usually blow the doors off a less-than-skilled driver with stick. Not only do you have to coordinate rapid shifts but you have to know the torque and horsepower peaks of the engine to nail the optimal shift points. Given two comparable cars, I would bet that more often than not, the guy with the automatic will beat the guy with the stick and I’ve seen it happen quite often.

jrock65

Well, the IS350 has set the new standard in this class in terms of acceleration. I don't think there is any doubt about that.

How about other aspects of what makes a car?

Handling: Definitely not

Gas efficiency: Definitely not

Ride: No

Room: Definitely not

Features: Depends. A fully loaded one is tops in this class in features, IMO. A base IS350 has less features than a base G35.

Interior quality: Not yet known, but I bet it's up there with the A4 in this department.

Price: Gonna be up there with a 3 series.

blueguydotcom

Here in SoCal with the constant stop-and-go traffic, having an auto tranny is convenient.

to me it's boring. and I live in so cal.

You can look down your nose at those with slush boxes while your small band of stick-loving drivers continues to dwindle by the second.... Before long their would not be a single true manual to be found in any car. Then what'll you all do ?? Ride a bike to work ? Hehehehehe

Get a dsg and still be involed in the driving of the car in some fashion without a torque converter robbing power or a cpu overriding my gear changes.

dfc3

And transmissions - along with the "intelligence" that guides the automatics - are getting better each day. The new C280/C350 that Mercedes is putting out (and maybe the SLK equivalents) have a 7-speed automatic that has been reviewed as smooth enough to both adjust to the individual driver's habit, and make it tough to figure out what gear/speed you're in at any given time. Haven't tried the car, but I want to.

potemkin

"...I'm not really a driver!"

So true.

"Or any of the race series drivers that use the paddle shifters, do they know they're just along for the ride?"

Race car drivers are in it to win. Period. They'll sacrifice the pleasure of driving to be first across the line. If sitting on thumbtacks will make them go a little faster, they'll do it -- I won't.

potemkin

"Geez... I didn't realise that 60%+ of ALL BMW *drivers* with slushboxes aren't really driving their wonderful machines, eh ?"

As far as I'm concerned, that is correct.

"By your logic these people are simply poseurs and not drivers... See how ridiculous that is ?"

Never said (or implied) that they're 'poseurs'. I said they're passengers. They're wonderful people who have made the choice that they want to get from point A to point B in as much comfort and convenience (and/or as fast) as their budget will allow. That's their choice. I never denigrated anyone for choosing that route. The word 'poseur' was introduced to this thread by you, not me. I have nothing against passengers (I've been known to be one myself on occasion).

Actually, there are a few G owners posting here who have accused all 3 owners of being 'poseurs' regardless of what transmission they choose.

"Before long their would not be a single true manual to be found in any car.

The automatic has been around for over fifty years and yet, the manual lives on.

"You can look down your nose at those with slush boxes while your small band of stick-loving drivers continues to dwindle by the second.... Then what'll you all do ?? Ride a bike to work ? Hehehehehe"

You don't have to worry about me. If all manufacturers decide they'll be more profitable selling only automatics your local transmission shop will start advertising auto-to-manual conversion jobs, and I'll be one their first customers. Besides, you're assuming the situation in the US is echoed all over the planet. Talk to a European. Ask him/her if the manual transmission is 'dying'.

potemkin

"Not only do you have to coordinate rapid shifts but you have to know the torque and horsepower peaks of the engine to nail the optimal shift points."

True, but with most DOHC 4-valves/cyl. engines the "optimal shift point" is generally easy to figure -- it's the point where the rev limiter kicks in.

laurasdada

I can't believe what happened yesterday! Since I now know that I'm not a driver (just a passenger) I decided to read the Wall St. Journal on the way to work, rather than pay attention to the road, steer, brake, accelerate or play with my TLs autostick. Well, after getting the car going in the right direction (weird, I was in the driver's seat and it seemed if I didn't use the steering wheel, accelerator and gear selector, the car wouldn't move!) I whipped out the WSJ and began reading. As my TL approached the 90 degree left turn on my street, the TL didn't turn!!! It went straight into my neighbor's yard! As if there was no driver! Funny, though. Every other morning, when I'm "not driving" the TL responds to my decisions and inputs using all the controls provided to "drive" the car. I'm so confused, could it be that manual or automatic or semi-automatic or some variation, we really are all drivers? :confuse:

Actually, I do understand what you "Live Manual or Die" guys are talking about. I'm just having some Internet fun... Well, I think it's fun...

For the first 15 years of my driving life, I was a die-hard 5 speed manual guy (Saab 99, VW Scirocco, Mitsubishi Mirage Turbo, Acura Integra). And then came the fateful day I was promoted into sales and inherited the Sales Manger's Olds (at 11,000 miles the gas tank ruptured a seam on the TOP of the tank!) and for the next 5 years, boring but servicable domestic, automatic sedans. I did however, teach the evil wife to drive a stick and bought her a Nissan Sentra SE - R (fun, fun, fun) followed by a Saab 900s (fun, very practical. My attempt to avoid an SUV or Minivan) as the family began to grow. These were mine to play with on the weekend. I "retired" (downsized ) from the sales game and bought my company Dodge Intrepid (nice car but very loud and not Honda build quality. But reliable and good looking, good in snow). I believed I would return to the land of the "driver" soon.

Once I began my second career, it was time for a new car. As I was now a commuter, evil wife suggested I drive the Saab for a month of commuting to ensure I wanted a stick. I was sure the commute wouldn't sway me away, I was wrong. It was just no fun shifting between 1-2-3 every 17 seconds, rarely getting above 40mph. After a week, I returned the Saab, bought a Chrysler 300M ( I can't believe I bought a first model year, domestic CHRYSLER! I broke every rule there!) and had a plan. The wife's next car would be a 5 speed (Saab 9-5 or maybe A4 Avant, possibly a BMW 3 wagon? I was looking forward to shopping for her) and I would continue my tradition of enjoying row your own boat driving on the weekend. Ah, but as is often the folly that is my grand planning, the wife said she was done with manuals, she commutes too and driving to her is just a necessary evil. Hence, the Saab turned into (what else?) a Lexus RX 300 as our family grew again. She's very happy, therefore I'm very happy.

Will there be a manual tranny again in my future? Who knows. Until then, I will continue to drive whatever I choose, understanding those that rhapsodize about their fabulous fifth to third slingshot passes on I95 or deftly selecting just the right gear for a sweeper on their favorite hometown back roads. But I won't label people...

kdshapiro

Very funny. I to drove a manual for many years. I don't care what people label me as, I don't want to row my own gears anymore. A DSG type vehicle would be fine, it's the off the clutch, on the clutch, off the clutch, on the clutch for miles and miles in horrendous traffic that changed my mind.

So today I'm a passenger in my own cars, which by the way, is fine with me.

blueguydotcom

OI was sure the commute wouldn't sway me away, I was wrong. It was just no fun shifting between 1-2-3 every 17 seconds, rarely getting above 40mph

Why are you shifting that much? Keep the car in second. That's good for 0-62.

understanding those that rhapsodize about their fabulous fifth to third slingshot passes on I95 or deftly selecting just the right gear for a sweeper on their favorite hometown back roads. But I won't label people...

That'd be 6th to 3rd. :P

oac

I don't care what people label me as, I don't want to row my own gears anymore

Oh ! A Bimmer-ophile admitting a necessity for slush box... blasphemous, KD. Out of here, and in your corner and don't come out ever again....



Laurasdad: Excellent post.

potemkin

"I'm just having some Internet fun."

Ouch. You got me.

"...shifting between 1-2-3 every 17 seconds."

Sounds like Heaven.

gordonwd

To me the DSG/SMG/SSG or what have you is the best compromise between auto and manual.

To me, it's actually the worst of both worlds: it's really not anything like operating a manual trans -- coordinating the clutch while rowing away on the lever -- but it's also often not very good as an automatic, sometimes shifting too abruptly and doing other strange things (at least early SMG).

Now I would be interested in trying out Audi's DSG trans. I've seen the cutaways and decription of how it works, and it looks like a very efficient replacement for an automatic. But I still don't think it's a very good compromise with a true manual trans.

bmw3434

Food for thought...

Had the automatic transmission come first, would there have been a need to invent a manual transmission?

One of my customers said that to me when I asked if he would prefer manual or automatic.

Don't get me wrong, I love manual transmissions for the sheer fun factor.

thanks!

kdshapiro

/me hangs my head in shame...

That's why an SMG type of vehicle is appealing.

laurasdada

Potemkin, mi amigo, never change. I imagine your tombstone (in a hundred years or so, of course) will be in the shape of a BMW 6 speed stick tranny console... :shades:

Keep on shiftin'!

laurasdada

When I was your age, there was no sixth gear, you whippersnapper. Unless you mated two "three on the tree" trannys!!!

Man, I am old.

blueguydotcom

I'm 31. I recall 4 speed manuals.

kdshapiro

I'm ??1. I remember my friends Dad's car having three on the column.

maxellman

The new benchmark.

kyfdx

Uh... I owned a 3-speed... How old does that make me...

xrunner2

Extending this off-topic - Had a "Used" 53 Ford flat-head V8 with three on a tree. If you shifted slow to moderate speed from 1 to 2 it was OK. If you attempted a speed(?) shift 1 to 2, linkage would hang up and it would be stuck in first. Had to stop the car, open the hood, reach down and jiggle the linkage free.

Current crop of drivers don't know how good they have it with slick shifting manuals from BMW 3 series, Honda/Acuras.