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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    "Can't handle"

    Very strange language. I hope i never have so much free time that i will need to become emotionally involved with vehicle brands. ;)

  • how does a chrysler 300C or an Maxima 3.5 SL or an Avalon XLS fall short of a TSX or an S40 in luxury amenities or performance or class or price. your ideal isms is rediculas but who is C&D or motortrend or any other automotive enthusiast to argue with the great opinion of KYFDX. Dont take it personal its not meant to be i just dont understand after reading all these post on your ideals its contradictory and non-coherent But it is your opinion and you are entitled no matter how absurd or contradictory it may be.
  • ryanl1ryanl1 Posts: 55
    kd you're right entry level luxury/performance is from the perspective of the buyer not the manufacturer and everone's physical impression of a car is so variable.Everyone who's seen the GT love it.A lot of people consider BMW x3/x5 plain ugly.Bungled 6's with old fogie eyebrows.

    I say let people talk/compare cars that fit post #1 otherwise sticking one's head in the sand will not help anyone except the ALL KNOWLEDGABLE/ALL CONTROLLING BOARD :)
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 64,880
    Go back and read my post... I didn't say they couldn't compete... I just said they don't qualify as entry-level luxury models.... I've never stated that you can't compare the cars, just that they don't fit the definition of:
     Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans.


    P.S.: SEDAN... that leaves out the RSX also.


    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    Okay KD. M3 minus 20K is less the car that the Sti is. Period. Look, Subaru is quite capable of adding all the luxury that BMW has. They can add 5-10K worth of wool, leather, aluminum, alcantra, Momo, Sparco, Nakamichi NAV, Mcintosh stereos whatever. Very few would buy it at the start, so it's not worth the investment. Subaru is building the brand towards more luxury.

    Yes, I have driven both and yes the M3 is super nice, and way better looking IMHO. But if you really had to make a run for your life in a car I would put my butt in a STi. ;-)

    Will Subaru ever have a full size luxury car, I doubt it. They will have a larger model than the Legacy, and it will probably have alot of luxury. The crucial car for Subaru now is the new 7-Pass Halifax or Tribeca. That car has to come correct with alot of premium/luxury features and performance. Will they put all the bells and whistles in, I don't know? Can they hell yes. There is a 450HP Subaru motor waiting for a car.
  • I like this thread it has the spice that alot of other threads have lacked and P.s. kyfdx i said i gave you the leeway in the rsx read my post over again and look at the part that said," TSX is the bottom of the line actually RSX but i give you the benefit of a sedan" oh yeah "DUH" anyway I ask a question about the opinions of KYFdx and blueguy what are the definitions of a entry lux sedan and what are your definitions of one there is only one write answer one is opinion and one is set by society's standard which makes it factual, lets get to the real nitty-gritty and leave out ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm yea the opinion. and then lets compare. or like someone said lets stick our head in the sand and act like our opinions out weight society's standards, maybe in a dream world or when one of you becomes king of america, oh yeah we live in a democracy sorry.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    “I like this thread it has the spice that a lot of other threads have lacked…”

    Yeah well enjoy it while it lasts because I have to believe the regular forum host is on vacation. When she gets back you’re all gonna be crackin’ rocks on a chain gain. I lobbied for Subie inclusion and got sent to the Gulag. This has been like a major revolt and breakout.

    Ye-e-h-a-a-a-a-a-a-a!!! Let ‘errrrrrrrrrip!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Be nice now… NICE!!!

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    yes but the in the prior post it indicates where the top of the line should compete is the S-class 7 series and A8 and not 5- a6 - e class read the 142 pages then get back to me.

    I mentioned the 5 and e. I wrote 5/E or 7/A. Try again with your nitpicking.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Entry level luxury.

    The entry point to a luxury line. Subuaru is not a luxury line.

    BTW, we live in a republic, not a democracy. ;)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The M3 has been named the best GT ever. They are different cars. One is a pocket rocket, the other is interstellar spaceship with luxury. You can't say a pocket rocket is better than an interstellar spaceship with luxury. Different purposes.

    But if you believe the Sti is a better car than the M3, I respect your opinion.
  • the sti is in no way better than an M3 and blueguy not nitpicking just stating the facts jack. alot of bang for your buck but thats it it falls short everywhere else but performance
  • ryanl1ryanl1 Posts: 55
    Yes fellow comrade I will try to get you re-instated into the politburo ;)

    blueguy: I understand where you're coming from.If Timex comes out with a 100k watch is it a luxury brand?Probably not. Is it a luxurious watch? Of course. Does it matter to the purchaser? Depends on the purchaser or the ultimate user.Would a Rolex afficionado look at a Timex? No.

    I'll admit even if Hyundai comes out with a car that meets all the above criteria I would still never buy one even if they are more reliable/luxurious.Everyone has they're biases towards certain brands correctly or incorrectly.

    This is why the "luxury" brands have to tread carefully if they decide to move downmarket e.g. BMW 1 series,separating Ford from Volvo/Jaguar.
    In Canada we have the Acura EL which is a gussied up Civic.So if we rebadge a car and all the cars in the lineup meet a minimum luxury level then we have a "luxury brand".

    Good or bad that's what we have.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    I totally agree with you.

    I wouldn't say the Scoobie GT is less of a car than a BMW. I intend to drive one when my lease is nearing its end. I want some measure of luxury matched with performance. The badge is not too important to me when buying the car (no american brands or mitsubishi). Neither is the market segment.

    Fun, luxury and performance. Reliability would be nice too...especially if I buy the next one.

    Heck the prospect of a Mazdaspeed3 hatch with 270 hp, awd and the space of that car has me drooling.
  • you can compare much more over at Comparison of Sedans Priced 25,000 to 45,000 thread
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    There's no reazson to take the exclusion of a brand as an affront. It doesn't mean that the car might not be as good, it just means it isn't the entry level of a luxury brand, and/or wasn't named by the moderator.

    I've at least learned something in this topic, i never even thought of volvos before but there was some interesting data on the s60R posted, i had no idea it got to 60 in 5.5, an had such good performance numbers. I will also look at the CTS which i otherwise might not have really considered. Also the GT. My cousin is lobbying for me to get a GTO and i see no reason to not take a test drive. But, not every car i like has to be in every topic i'm interested in.
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    KD "The M3 has been named the best GT ever." What magazine came up with that tag?

    I love the M3, don't get me wrong. But when you say the M3-20K is NE to STi, you are intimating that it would still be better than the STi. That is an opinion I beleive to be false, and hard to justify.

    The STi can up the level of interior materials, to the current Legacy standard, plus other extras like NAV and still be under the optioned out price of a 330i. It boggles my mind what Subaru could do with an extra 20K on a STi. Not to mention what an STi Legacy will be like.

    My position is that if you add 20K to the STi despite it's detriment in dimensions, the M3 wouldn't be competitive as a small Luxury compact GT. And I mean it' wouldn't be competitive in luxury and God knows it' wouldn't in performance.

    Now do I beleive the current STi is better. I beleive it is better fun for the purpose of all out driving. However, if I were single, would I rather hit the town in a STi or a M3 Convertible. Tops down on the M3 baby. ;-)
    But if you believe the M3 is a better car than the STi, I respect your opinion.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Several pages dedicated to arguing about what it is we're talking about. That's really an argument that the discussion lost its focus and isn't going anywhere productive, ya know?

    As many of you know, in order to stop the continuing debate about the debates, I created a list of what is topical here - all of you had input, but I made the decision.

    The list (pat Mar 19, 2004 6:34pm):

    Acura TSX and TL
    Audi A4
    BMW 3-Series
    Cadillac CTS
    Infiniti G35 and maybe I35
    Jaguar X-Type
    Lexus IS 300 and maybe ES 330
    Mercedes-Benz C-Class
    Saab 9-3 and 9-5
    Volvo S60/S60R and maybe S40

    I see a couple of you have started other discussions to cover some of the bases not covered in that list. That's great ... maybe they will help us be able to talk about the cars themselves more often than we talk about which cars we are talking about. ;)
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    "Do you really believe the M3-$20K=Sti. Give me a break. Honestly, drive both and then let us know. "

    Kd… I haven't driven the STi but have driven the WRX, M3 and 330i. Let me tell you something, there are some people who are turned on by performance and don't need or want what is typically known as "luxury". It doesn't seem like this is your profile so I don't expect you to understand this.

    When a performance driver gets going, the only things that matter are go, stop, turn… the thrill of the roller coaster. Stereos, fit n' finish, leather… all this stuff doesn't mean squat. To this kind of driver these Subies deliver some serious bang for the buck—performance for a HELLUVA lot less. To get the performance of both WRX and STi in a BMW you HAVE to go to the 330 perf pack/M3 respectively and dish out the cash.

    On the "luxury" aspect I've said this elsewhere. Some people classify luxury by way of butt-pampering characteristics. The thrill seeking driver sees naked performance as a luxury in itself. This is why people are willing to pay ransom's for Porsches that historically have had interiors on the level of military Jeeps. Does this disqualify Porsches as luxury cars? Not in my book. Do "econobox" characteristics detract from performance? It merely puts it into the dubious "entry-level" category. Keep denying this.

    Now kd, I have to ask you, have YOU driven the cars in question? Doesn't matter though… I think I know what you expect from a "luxury" performance car, and I don't expect anyone who is thoroughly happy with a 330i to understand my points.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I understand your point, but this topic is titled Entry Level Performance Sedans, not Value Oriented Performance Cars. I agree to some people it's how fast to 60, how does it turn, what is the traction, and they don't care about any modicum of leather or wood. Others want the leather and trim.

    I could have easily got the EVO or STi as could all of us. But that is not in our target frame of reference, or else we'd all be on the Subie board, telling everyone our lastest conquer with our Sti.

    There is no one better car. Car manufacturers design goals include a number compromises, your purchasing goals want to minimize the compromises or trade-offs and maximize the priorities. Aspects might include finances, looks, luxury, reliability, dealer service, gas mileage etc.
    So you can't really say car a is better then car b in an absolute sense.

    This is not about BMW vs the world. It's about saying an M3 and Sti have as much in common as a Lexus ES and Dodge SRT4.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Anybody want to talk about the vehicles in the topic list?
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Posts: 1,491
    "this topic is titled Entry Level Performance Sedans, not Value Oriented Performance Cars"

    kd, that really is the best way to describe it. were talking about luxury AND performance, not luxury OR performance. there are differences between them, subbies are about performance, but not luxury. honestly things got weird ever since subbie legacy got into this category, in a place it shouldnt be.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Why is there even a debate about this?

    Whether you agree with it or not, the forum moderator has clearly stated an exclusive list of cars to discuss in this thread.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    thematrixhasu, please send me an email, thanks.
  • mariner7mariner7 Posts: 509
    cnn projects Z convertible to have best resale value: tm

    I'm rather surprised. That class has some amazing German machines, with everyone, including Porsche, represented.
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    And is the Z convertable a sport sedan?

    What sport sedan in this group had the highest (projected) resale?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I'm making commodities future contracts due in 2010 based on those predictions. I think someone had a diving rod out.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 64,880
    diving rod?? or divining rod??


    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    2005 G35 "rumor":

    Softer leather.
    Auto Sedan and Coupe both with 280 HP.
    6MT Sedan and Coupe both with 298 HP.

    Not that the G's problem is power...
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