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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • 150mphclub150mphclub Member Posts: 316
    I believe the name of the corporation that manufactures Mercedes is Daimler-Chrysler.
  • dave330idave330i Member Posts: 893
    "In any case, I may have to give up on my "true manual gearbox" car, as the other day I almost had an accident, spilling my Starbucks Latte Grande in my lap while trying to dial my cell phone and having to shift gears at the same time."

    When I drive, cell phone stays in the briefcase, and no open containers since no cup holders (don't think wife will like it if I refer to her as cupholder). I just focus on joy of driving. :D
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I drive manual while on the cell phone drinking a cup of black coffee while refereeing my children from behind and taking the proper dosage of my medication while driving in a congested city street.

    The above situation happens almost daily and I would never ever consider an alternative to my good old fashioned stick!
  • potemkinpotemkin Member Posts: 195
    My cel phone has a speaker setting that lets me keep both hands free to drive my Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedan.
  • klpeelklpeel Member Posts: 46
    Uh, I think gordonwd had his tongue firmly in cheek...
  • gordonwdgordonwd Member Posts: 337
    Since we were on this subject recently, here's a really funny article from Slate Magazine about taking driving lessons for a manual trans (hope posting this link is legal here): http://slate.msn.com/id/2128407/nav/tap1/.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    SPEED (R&T) Comparo

    1) 330i
    2) G35
    3) IS350

    The 330i and G35 were both 6MT.

    0-60, 1/4 mile:

    G35: 5.8s, 14.4s
    IS350: 6.0s, 14.5s
    330i: 6.2s, 14.9s

    60-0:

    G35: 116 ft
    330i: 124 ft
    IS350: 128 ft

    They said that the rankings were heavily biased toward sport and performance, and would have been very different with luxury factored in more. The IS was definitely the luxury champ.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Is this in the Dec issue?

    M
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Nov/Dec
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Hmm, haven't we been hearing low-mid 5s for the IS350? Those speed numbers for the Lexus are disappointing.

    Slalom?
  • gordonwdgordonwd Member Posts: 337
    What's interesting to me (but off the subject a bit) are the 1/4-mile numbers of these cars. My first new car was a 1969 Pontiac GTO with a 400cid engine, and I forget the hp rating. It might have been 350hp, but horsepower was rated a lot more optimistically in those days.

    Anyway, I took it to the drag strip a number of times and ran in the "Pure Stock" category, which meant street tires and no engine mods. The tires in those days were 14" bias ply tires and very skinny by today's standards. I won my class a couple of times running 14.3 seconds @ 100mph. The one time that I tried the car with a pair of "cheater slicks" on the back, it went through at 13.9 seconds.

    Anyway, I am surprised in a way that today's performance cars are not all that much quicker in the quarter mile. Of course, don't even start comparing ride & handling with those old beasts (live axles, leaf springs, drum brakes, etc.). :)
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,336
    some of the '60s muscle cars probably didn't weigh any more (in some cases less) than a new compact like the IS, which runs about 3,500#, right? Traction was another big limiting facotr, but that showed up more in 0-60 or ET than in trap speed.

    at least the IS will give you a bit better MPG than the old goat!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • kschoenrockkschoenrock Member Posts: 4
    I am new to the luxury market and am considering the BMW 325 in an i or xi package and am also considering an Infiniti G35. First on the BMW, I live in MN and on a hill, do I really need the xi or can I get by with a good set of winter tires? I've heard differing opinions on this, but would like to save the $ and performance of the i if I can. Second, I drove the G35 and was impressed in its relatively much stronger engine and overall value proposition. I would be interested in hearing opinions from those of you out there who are more in the know.
  • blue01s4blue01s4 Member Posts: 13
    I heard the same thing, but only C&D's initial eval of the car and lexus seem to be able to get any numbers in the low 5's. All other car mags that have tested the IS seem to be getting in the mid and more likely upper 5's. However, I suspect that once a stick comes into the picture, you may well see some low 5's.
  • blue01s4blue01s4 Member Posts: 13
    Seems like you have to decide first what you want. With BMW you are definitely paying for the name, and less performance in comparison to the G35. With the G35 are you looking at the AWD version or only the RWD? In either configuration, it seems the G35 would be the better performer. Audi A4 2.0T would be another vehicle to consider if you want AWD and comparable performance to the Bimmer, but I still think the G35 would out-perform the Audi. However, the Audi does have significantly more tuning potential compared to either car being that it is turbocharged (if you are into that kinda thing ;) ).

    Other things to consider are warranteies. Both Audi and BMW include all service in their warranties whereas Infiniti does not. It may be something to factor into the price - Do you mind paying more up front for 3-4 years of expense free driving or not? Then of course you get into talking about reliability, and I'll let you do the research on Edmunds to come to your own conclusion about that.

    Good luck.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "However, I suspect that once a stick comes into the picture, you may well see some low 5's."

    Ummm, what do you know that the rest of us don't? Last I heard, the IS350 was definitely not going to get a manual gearbox. Yes, no?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • blue01s4blue01s4 Member Posts: 13
    Lexus has expressly stated that the 3 series Bimmer was their target with this car. They can not state that they have a Bimmer killer with a conventional auto tranny - unless it's a DSG/SMG-type setup (maybe). They will have to put a stick into it. I'm beting one to two years max. Anyway, they said the original IS300 was going to be an auto-only setup when they first released it also. Take what lexus/I/anyone-on-this-board says with a grain of salt.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Lexus has expressly stated that the 3 series Bimmer was their target with this car. They can not state that they have a Bimmer killer with a conventional auto tranny..."

    So one would think. I too remember early on when the folks at Lexus stated that this new IS would be a direct competitor to the 3-Series (or some such language), however, everything that I've read over the last several months, including stuff from Lexus executives, seems to indicate that they are backing off of that stance. At this point I for one would be very surprised to see a new IS350 with a true three pedal stick shift (although a DSG type of tranny is I suppose not out of question).

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    The IS350 is a competitor to the TL and MB C class. It's not on the same level as a G or 3 series.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Lexus has expressly stated that the 3 series Bimmer was their target with this car.

    Yes, I believe BMW is their target, but I am not convinced Lexus understands what a BMW is.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,336
    it doesn't matter what you or lexus thinks a BMW is. It matters what Lexus shoppers think it is (or want it to be).

    Plenty of people think they want a BMW, but don't really like the experience when they get it.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Plenty of people think they want a BMW, but don't really like the experience when they get it.

    Hmm, I've heard of people getting Porsches and sports cars and not liking them, but never anyone buying a BMW and not liking it unless it gave them service headaches. As far as the ride, I think most people who buy them love them.

    By nature of the IS' size, I think there was more room to forsake some of the luxury formula for more sport, ESPECIALLY with the back seat sized the way it is. Actually, I think the IS could be a new class of car... a 2+2+2. What's the last 2? The back doors!

    ;-)
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Plenty of people think they want a BMW, but don't really like the experience when they get it.

    I've never heard of a BMW owner that truly dislikes their experience..... I know and have talked with a ton of BMW owners, and there are a few that might be a bit disappointed with their particular car's service record, yet they still say "But I love the car!" Then, of course, there are the others that love the car and have no problems, either. Most BMW owners love the drive so much that those that have any service headaches don't mind enough for it to affect their overall ownership experience.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,336
    I was really referring to the subset that bought it because it was cool or trendy or whatever, than decided that it was too (noisy/firm ride/heavy steering/whatever). The same ones that could really care less about the whole driving experience, but probably do like the acceleration.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    that'd be me. My BMW''s been a nightmare for service but it's so darned much fun I'll forgive it. the is350 could be impeccably reliable and I'd still hate it every day for lacking any character or fun.
  • pearlpearl Member Posts: 336
    "Plenty of people think they want a BMW, but don't really like the experience when they get it."
    I'll tell you what......I have a 9+ year old E39 (BMW 528 5spd) with more than 132K miles on the clock and have been shopping for a new LPS for the past six months. I instantly ruled out another 5 series because I hate Bangle's "styling". I have tested the STS, RL, CTS, E350, A6, GS and M. Guess what: NONE of them is BETTER than my old 528. NONE of them. Yes, they have some new technology bits, but as far as ride, performance, quietness, solid construction, reliability, handling, gas mileage, roominess, whatever, they all have significant shortfalls. Yes, some are better in one area or the other, but overall, none have the full set of attributes that my older car does in my opinion. One thing is very clear: BMW builds the very best road cars on the planet. No one else is close for second place. Some may accelerate better, have fancier interiors, whatever, but BMW owns the road. Because or Mr. Bangle's styling, I may not replace my 97 E39 with another BMW, but then, I may just keep what I have. BMW owners may complain about this or that, but you won't find many complaining about how their cars drive.
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    How about replacing it with a low mileage 2003 e39... the last year of that platform? Mine has been faultless, and as you have attested, has been a pleasure to DRIVE. SP is the only way to go - well, a better way to go :)
  • blue01s4blue01s4 Member Posts: 13
    Yes, I believe BMW is their target, but I am not convinced Lexus understands what a BMW is.

    I can not agree with this statement more.

    Mistakes IMO Lexus has made with regard to their pursuit of BMW with regard to "Sportiness/Performance":

    -AWD is a great sporting application. It offers great traction in all weather conditions. However, AWD systems cause high amounts of drive line power loss . Why would you only combine an AWD system with your lower horsepower engine? This is not consistent with a goal of producing a sporty/performance vehicle. (BTW, they did the same thing with the new GS)

    -Manual transmissions have always been associated with sporting/performance applications. Again, why would you only offer a MT with your lower hp engine? Again, this is not consistent with a goal of producing a sporty/performance vehicle.

    -At least I have to commend them on making the vehicle RWD. Acura is still trying to make sporty FWD vehicles to compare with BMW (though they do a fairly decent job of it!).

    (Now for my bias) You rarely see a Japanese made vehicle out-perform a comparable German made vehicle in any comparison (Infiniti seems to be the rare exception to the rule).
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    (Now for my bias) You rarely see a Japanese made vehicle out-perform a comparable German made vehicle in any comparison

    You said it: it's a very biased statement. The whole statement hinges on your defnition of "out-perform" and "comparable." There are plenty Japanese cars that out accelearate and out-handle German cars in the same size segment. Ultimately, choosing a car is a balancing act among four things: size, sportiness (accelearation and handling) and luxury content, all three balanced against cost. German car makers historically have endeared itself to car rags by cheating on three out of four categories: fielding a car that was substantially smaller than compeition (3 vs. TL, G, ES, etc.), with less luxury content and interior, plus at higher cost. Three out of four compromises made, any wonder it would win in the fourth category?

    Scientificly, there are two ways of defining what's comaprable: either by size or by cost. The Germans loses almost every time if either objective measures is held constant for comparison: TL and G beats 5, E and A6 on handling quite easily if size is the criterium for "comparable." TL and G beat 325, C230 and A4 1.8/2.0 handily if price is the criterium for "comparable.". It is only when one relaxes standards and bias the "comparable" in favor of the Germans that they would win compros; any wonder in the rigged result? If you are willing to spend moreny more on a smaller car with less luxury, chances are indeed good that you will get better handling unless the mfr is utterly incompetent.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    If you are willing to spend moreny more on a smaller car with less luxury, chances are indeed good that you will get better handling

    As long as the size of the car is big enough for the target market, it doesn't matter that the E90 is smaller than the IS, they're both big enough. Personally, I think the G35 is too big - more of a mid-size car pretending (very well, mind you) to be compact.

    Luxury is more than just feature content. Luxury, in large part, is qualified by the "feel" of an automobile. How refined is the drivetrain? How quiet is the interior? How solid is the body structure? How well does the suspension absorb impacts and/or transmit them to the cockpit? How do the doors feel/sound when you shut them? What do the plastics look/feel like? How smoothly do the controls operate?

    An E90 with vinyl seats and halogen headlights may be lacking some features one expects to have in an "entry-level luxury" car, but it is definitely a luxurious where it really matters.

    It really boils down to individual priorities. Size, amenities, handling, acceleration, refinement. All of these cars offer a different mix of them.
  • blue01s4blue01s4 Member Posts: 13
    Here's the thing though, the Japanese mfrs are theoretically just as competent to make a great performing small or medium sized sedan as the Germans are. So why do they not make direct competition for the Germans. As you said, the 3 series is quite a bit smaller than the TL, G, ES (I can't believe you even mentioned the ES - what car has that thing ever out performed?). So, why not compete directly with them? The TSX is similar in size to the 3 series, but Acura gives it a relatively weak engine, makes it FWD and what do you expect, it doesn't compete. With regard to the TL and G which 5, E or A6 will they beat with regards to performance? That's another (IMO) problem with Japanese mfrs - they give you limited choices. You can get an A6 3.2, A6 4.2, S6 (soon) or RS6 (in a few years), and similar options exist with BMW and MB. Will the TL out perform all of them? Obviously not. You don't have to be that biased (or at all) to see that in regards to handling/performance (and I don't just mean straight line) German cars generally out perform comparable Japanese cars - IMHO of course ;) ) Don't take this as a personal assault. I like Japanese cars, and would readily buy one, but it has to perform, and in the cars I've compared they generally haven't kept up.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    A bewildered Lexus salesman watched as I adjusted the front seat on the IS250 to my liking and then hopped in the back to take photos.

    Some on Edmunds forums are saying a 6 foot man fits just fine in the back of the new IS. Perhaps its my physical limitations but I found the back of the IS250/350 uninhabitable vis-a-vis even the uncomfortable e46 I own. I am only 5-7 (145 lbs) and I could not get my legs into the foot area and place my bottom comfortably on the seat at the same time.

    My pics:

    Is250/350 backseat - notice my legs are cocked and my right knee is within an inch or so of the front seat (I'm only 5-7! so the driver's seat isn't that far back):

    image

    Backseat of my 330i - notice i have at least 4-5 inches between my knees and the back of the driver's seat and you can even see some of the seat cushion):

    image

    My feet in the foot area of the IS250/350 - they're smashed together, my shins are painfully crushed against the back of the driver's seat and my back is flush to the backseat (Note: you can barely see a bit of the seat cushion):

    image

    My feet in the foot area of the e46 330i - notice my feet are apart and at most the lower edge of chair touches my shin. My knees are also not even bent at 90 degrees:

    image

    Is this scientific? No. Will it be true for all? No. But to my experience, with the seat in the IS250/350 in a comfortable driving position I can not even come close to sitting semi-comfortably in the back of the IS. The chinese were into foot binding for over 1000 years, maybe Japanese engineers in the 21st century have a thing for leg binding.

    BTW, that salesguy at the lexus dealer was totally perplexed. "Don't you want to drive it?"

    "No thanks. Drove it already. Don't like it. Too soft. Sure you'll sell tons of them though..."
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Blueguy,

    I do know a good chiropractor---seems you may need it after sitting behind the IS ;)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    You can get an A6 3.2, A6 4.2, S6 (soon) or RS6 (in a few years), and similar options exist with BMW and MB. Will the TL out perform all of them? Obviously not. You don't have to be that biased (or at all) to see that in regards to handling/performance (and I don't just mean straight line) German cars generally out perform comparable Japanese cars - IMHO of course

    Once again, it hinges on your definition of "comparable." RS6 is a $70-80k car; are you seriously comparing that to a $30k Japanese car and call yourself unbiased? What you call "options" in the forms of S6 and RS6 are nothing more than a waste of money for the overwhelming majority of buyers of A6. The sales of S4/RS4 and S6/RS6 combined don't even make up 10% of their A4/A6 volume, and can never get their R&D money back. What you call "options" are really the elimination of the very practical option of being able to get the A4 or A6 at an otherwise lower price, and the even more critically important option of getting an A4 or A6 that is reliable. The plethra of non-standardization is the big reason behind German unreliability and high cost.

    I can't believe you even mentioned the ES - what car has that thing ever out performed?
    .
    BTW, the ES out performed 318's of its time quite well in typical American street and highway driving conditions; it certainly did better than the A6 2.8 quatro that could not even get out of its own way and accounted for the overwhelming majority of A6 sales for a long time.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The IS350 is a competitor to the TL and MB C class. It's not on the same level as a G or 3 series.

    My $45k says otherwise. The TL and C are long off my shopping list. IS, G and 3 are the only contenders left competing for my money. Prefer a folding top, both IS and 3 are making one, one can only assume G is to follow suit soon.
  • mnrep2mnrep2 Member Posts: 200
    I too live in MN on a hill!! We bought the G35x in July to replace the front wheel drive Passat. So far the G has been a treat. Can't say I looked very closely at the BMW, but odds are in your favor for lack of mechanical issues with the G, if that factors into the decsion.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    say I looked very closely at the BMW, but odds are in your favor for lack of mechanical issues with the G, if that factors into the decsion.

    Mechanical issues with the 325xi?

    What mecanical issues are you referring to? I did not know there were mechanical issues!
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,491
    Nice legs dude! Could you have at LEAST worn shorts for the photo-op? :)

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD

  • osufans2osufans2 Member Posts: 14
    I am surprised that the Jag didn't get much exposure when people discussed the "entry level luxury sport sedan". The price falls well within the "entry level" moniker, <$30K. It is definitely luxurious, with a great reputation in US and abroad. One may argue the "sportiness" of the car. However, with an option 3.0L V6 making 230+ hp, standard AWD, and a manual transmission, it has all the right ingredients to at least warrant an honorable mention. Stop the harrassment that this is a "Ford". If you have driven one, you will agree that this car is every bit a well appointed luxury sport sedan.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Freak. ;)
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I have driven an x-type. It's an afterthought in that group of Saabs, Volvos and Caddys. Part of the problem is the chassis which is an old mondeo.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    I think the real problem with the Jag is that it distinguishes itself in no category whatsoever. It's a total also-ran. I wanted to like it in the worst way when it was introduced, but, oy, it's a stretch.

    I think the Modeo platform was a winner, for what it was. The competition is just way ahead now.

    Yeah, BG, nice gams!
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,491
    The AWD system is very slow reacting, there is an excessive amount of body roll, some of the interior materials are questionable, and the V6 is straight outta dearborn (DURATEC), not to mention the price. Besides the factory backed leases as of late, the stickers on these cars are well into "I'll take a 3 series for that kind of dough range."

    Personally it would be the last car on a long list of competitors in the entry level sport sedan category.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    think the real problem with the Jag is that it distinguishes itself in no category whatsoever.

    Except for the Jaguar XKE! Unfortunately that was far too many decades ago!
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    IS and 3's are about the same size, and we further agree that G35 is significantly larger than both. Whether it is too big is an entirely subjective matter. Within each company's lineup however, the bigger car almost always commands higher price premium and delivers less sportiness; e.g. IS vs. GS vs. LS, and 3 vs. 5 vs. 7.

    That's exactly the point that I was making, historically, BMW had been selling smaller cars at high price on "sportiness." Suppose, Company I made an exact copy of the 5 series, and Company L made an exact copy of 7 series, and both companies sell them for $33k. Many rags and BMW fans would still claim that BMW's are better! The G35 came pretty damn close to the hypothetical copy of 5 series.
  • dave330idave330i Member Posts: 893
    "German car makers historically have endeared itself to car rags by cheating on three out of four categories: fielding a car that was substantially smaller than compeition (3 vs. TL, G, ES, etc.), with less luxury content and interior, plus at higher cost."

    That's pretty funny considering Germans created the segment (BMW in particular), and the Japanese are the new comers to the segment.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Suppose, Company I made an exact copy of the 5 series, and Company L made an exact copy of 7 series, and both companies sell them for $33k. Many rags and BMW fans would still claim that BMW's are better!

    That is a bit of a stretch!
    Sort of like the movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". Although a snatched body is identical to the body it replaces, the distinct character differnces between these two bodies remains distinct.

    The same applies to your Company L theory! Although hp and other stats of Company L may resemble or even exceed an equivalent BMW, there remains a distinct differerence in the "character" and "feel" of driving a BMW.

    Unrelated topic: Best version of the "Invasion of the Body Snatchers was directed by Philip Kaufman and filmed in 1978 with Donald Sutherland and Jeff Goldblum.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    That's pretty funny considering Germans created the segment (BMW in particular), and the Japanese are the new comers to the segment.

    Sedan market existed long before BMW made 2002 (the predecessor of 3 series). The very concept of BMW sportsedan has been fielding a smaller sedan, giving it better handling, and charge the price of a bigger sedan.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    In other words, a BMW 5 series with badge replaced would have lost its soul . . . interesting theory, probably a precise characterization of the typical BMW fan's state of mind. Please notice, the hypothesis was on cars that are actually identical (not just hp and stats), just lower price, hence enabling a comparison to the 3 series on price point. One has to conclude that the very high price itself must be what makes the soul ;-) A little like crystals jewelry -- the more one overpays the better the product must be.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Or maybe it's the roadfeel and the at-the-limit handling the G35 still can't match.

    BTW, what does the M35/45 compete with then?
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