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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    What is a Solstice/Sky ?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Search is your friend...or google for that matter.

    pontiac.com
    saturn.com
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    Thanks blue, but I don't search pontiac or saturn. :P
  • 150mphclub150mphclub Member Posts: 316
    old news--been discussed to death already.
  • joeshanjoeshan Member Posts: 70
    Yesterday, I participated in the BMW Ultimate Driving Experience at Shea Stadium, NYC:
    G35 w/ sport pkg (18'' Eagle NCT's)
    Audi A4 3.2 q (17'' Eagle F1's)
    BMW 330 (18'' Potenza RE050's)
    The Audi had the best exhaust note, the slowest acceleration, the most body lean, and ok room inside.
    The Infiniti felt quickest, had the most room inside, understeered slightly more than the BMW, and was more "point and squirt".
    The BMW felt solid, oversteered enough to be fun, was tight inside, and had uncomfortable, hard rear seats.
    There was a big bump on the course that really upset the cars, with the BMW tracking the best over it.
    On the street, the 325 felt great in normal driving, but the tight interior convinced me that I made the best choice for myself and my family by buying the G35.
    Oh well, there's my .02! :)
    P.S.: On the street, the 540 was nice and roomy, but the only word that comes to mind when describing the interior is "sterile". I'll take an M35 or 45 any day. The Z4 just seemed like a toy; not my cup of tea.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "describing the interior is "sterile".

    I like sterile when I drive. Less is more.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    ditto. Must be the German in me. I like things austere.
  • billyperksbillyperks Member Posts: 449
    Maybe back in the eighties (when I was in junior high) sterile would be acceptable.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Was Junior High that bad? ;)
  • billyperksbillyperks Member Posts: 449
    Best years of my life.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    I saw an M on a website and didn't like the looks, but anyone here test drive one? I like the G, thanks in advance. :D
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    This is really off-topic to this board. Why don't you hope on over to the Luxury Performance Sedans board?
  • gordonwdgordonwd Member Posts: 337
    "describing the interior is "sterile".

    I like sterile when I drive. Less is more.


    Maybe that wasn't quite the right word to use. I also feel that the E90 does not have as attractive a view from the driver's seat as the E46, with its more cockpit-like feel. The E90's interior is less unique, more generic, less "traditional BMW". It seems more similar to what you might find in an Audi (not that that's bad -- just not distinctively BMW). Even the C&D review mentioned something about not caring for dash design.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    True, the e46 cockpit- feel is missing in the e90 and that is a shame! And the reason the E90 has become more generic is because it is "less sterile" than older BMWs. IMO I favor sterility/functional designs over the ostentatious/trendy designs that are evident in all current performance sedans.

    Drivetrain/Chassis considerations are what drives into showrooms! Styling is somewhere below my 25 top priorities in buying a car!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Your post has been moved to the more appropriate general C-Class discussion here: bhw77, "Mercedes-Benz C-Class Sedans" #7195, 28 Sep 2005 8:37 am.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Is anyone in this forum old enough to remember when most people laughed when Toyota introduced a luxury line called Lexus?

    Or a few years ago when many would never think that a Korean Samsung can outwit Sony in consumer electronics?

    Well here is something more current. Hyundai will be introducing a 3.5L RWD luxury sedan and should be on our shores early 07!

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=107396
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I keep mentioning Hyundai pulling off what Toyota's done in the past 16 years. So far people scoff. So did BMW/MB in the 80s. They're not laughing at Lexus now.

    15 years from now will Hyundai be the new Lexus? I wouldn't count them out. They've gone from 1980s joke (much like Toyota was a joke in the 60s) to strong value contender in the 00s (much like Toyota in the 80s). It's not beyond the realm of possibility for the 2020 Hyundai AL760 Entry Luxury Sport Sedan with 1500 hp to be the big contender aiming to knock off Infiniti and Lexus' aging but still popular platforms.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Yeah, a lot of people just thought "Lexus" was some gimmick.....

    Although it seems crazy now, I'm sure that Korean cars will be generally accepted by the public within 10-15 years. Yeah, it's hard to imagine Suzuki and Hyundai as mainstream cars.... but they said the same thing about Japanese in the 70s. The American Big 3 laughed... and then proceeded to get run over in their complacency.
  • gordonwdgordonwd Member Posts: 337
    Just as a slight correction to a possibly off-topic post, Suzuki is Japanese, not Korean, and they have long been one of the "big four" Japanese motorcycle manufacturers. Current (or up to recently, at least) Korean brands include Hyundai, Kia, and Daewoo.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    My bad... Yeah, Suzuki's Japanese. I wouldn't call them part of any "big four" in this country. Internationally, especially in Asia, they are big, but not so much in the USA. BTW, isn't Daewoo automobile division long gone?
  • dumontdumont Member Posts: 48
    Yeah Suzuki is Japanese but a few (all??) of their cars are built in Korea and funny thing you mention Daewoo, some of Suzuki's cars are originally Daewoos see here for example http://cars.about.com/cs/testdrives/fr/Suzuverona_test.htm
    Dumont
    05 Acura TL AT Navi
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Yikes! I guess we were both right! :P
  • shankyshanky Member Posts: 36
    I am in Sacramento/CA, and have ordered a MB c350 (obsidian black/stone) with all options excluding all-leather and 4Matic, for invoice price+750 (costco deal). I am a first time luxury-car buyer, and had test drove BMW 325, Lexus ES330 and Avalon Ltd (all 2006) within a span of 2 days.

    The MB test drive was fantastic - smooth ride, effortless and quiet acceleration, very responsive steering, rich interior (interior/exterior looks are much better than the 2006 BMW 3 series). I had test driven the BMW 325 in tight corners at about 40-50 mph (as I did with the MB), and did not notice any "significant/superior handling" that the beemer-fans rave about. I tested the BMW just hours before the MB, and soon as I got into the MB I could see the superior appointments - the different can be instantly felt. It was love at first sight! The BMW had very bland interior, and a straight black front panelling that I disliked (old Corolla look). Plus, I found the driver seats a bit tight for my comfort. Both BMW and MB have horrible cup-holders - the rear ones are too shallow for comfort.

    On a price comparison, loading the comparable BMW 330 with the same options as the c350 gave me a price higher by about $400 for the 330. So the beemer did not have price advantage over the MB (except when you factor the free-maintainence for 4 years offered by BMW versus the $300/year needed for the MB).

    The Lexus ES 330 was cool, but a bit elephantine for my needs. Same with the Avalon, which I found smoother/quiter than the Lexus. Good thing about the Avalon was the new engine (260 hp plus) and the flat flooring in the rear seat (very cool for the center seat). Also, the Lexus/Avalon looks very Camry-ish to me, and I wanted to stand out from the crowd (heh! heh!)

    I did not notice significant difference between the C and S modes (Comfort/Sport) in the feel of the car, except during startup, when it starts in 2nd gear in C mode for a smooth start.

    I love the 21/29 mpg rating since most of my driving is on freeways to work.

    I will opt for Michelin tires though (instead of the standard all-weather Continental). I also plan on getting the wheels chromed. MB's look best when they shine!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Congratulations!
  • lehrer1lehrer1 Member Posts: 54
    Avalon is an elephant on four wheels in comparison with BMW.
    And hesitation is terrible.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Looked at an ES and an Avalon? But yet drove a 325 (at best shod in 17s) and then compared it to the MB c350? So baffled. Drive a 330i with sport and you'll understand. Then again, you drove an Avalon so odds are good sporty driving isn't yoru thing.
  • shankyshanky Member Posts: 36
    yes, you are correct..I was not looking for a pure sporty car - I wanted a good mix of luxury and sportiness. My top speed is not going to be above 100mph, and nor am I going to be whizzing around corners !. Moreover feedback from the road was desired to be minimal - but not so much as to dull the senses :) I was also impressed by the excellent reviews for the new MB engine upgrade and its smooth 7-tranny.

    I did not want the AWD models (saving on mpg!) and did not test drive the BMW 330i (nor the c350 sport, nor the MB 4MATIC options). I got disinterested mostly (pardon me pls if anyone is offended !) by the interior of the 325, and hence did not try out the 330.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    not offended. we all have likes and dislikes. 3 series, for my money, has the best interior around. i sat in a current a4 (crream/beige) and found it not to my liking. all the other interiors are too foo-foo for my tastes. clean, hard lines please.
  • johnny420johnny420 Member Posts: 473
    Both BMW and MB have horrible cup-holders - the rear ones are too shallow for comfort.

    Ah, yes. The cupholder. The absolute pinnacle of a cars worth for any driving enthusiast worth his salt.

    Driving should be about driving. Period. Alas, in the U.S. this is becoming less and less so. Actually operating the vehicle has become a tertiary activity at best.

    Consuming beverages, solving crossword puzzles, applying makeup, etc. is best left for times when one is not operating a motor vehicle.

    I'll take the car that performs on the road over one that best holds my beverage any day of the week.

    Just my two bits worth. :shades:

    End of rant.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    I also find it funny how many Americans include/exclude certain cars based on cupholders.... I am American, but I find this absolutely ridiculous and absurd. Do you think you might be able to make that trip home from the gas station without the 64oz Biggie Drink? Geez..... It's just a reflection of our fattening society.
  • johnny420johnny420 Member Posts: 473
    Yes, the Germans seem to have it right. The reason their cupholders stink is because they actually focus on building a good car, not the best mobile drink carrier/cell phone holder. LOL!
  • wco81wco81 Member Posts: 594
    I haven't bought a new car since they started including cup holders.

    Not only do I want a cupholder for water bottles I may take around, I want a nice and convenient felt-line sunglass holder so I don't have to always put it in cases and then in glove compartments.

    Also want iPod support too as well as good wind and engine noise control.

    Doesn't have to be either or. No reason a luxury performance sedan can't have amenities and be a good drive.
  • dave330idave330i Member Posts: 893
    "Driving should be about driving. Period. Alas, in the U.S. this is becoming less and less so. Actually operating the vehicle has become a tertiary activity at best."

    It is pretty sad. People don't want to drive cars these days. They want to drive their living room. :(
  • johnny420johnny420 Member Posts: 473
    Doesn't have to be either or. No reason a luxury performance sedan can't have amenities and be a good drive.

    Sure. As long as something like cupholders is not the reason you reject a luxury performance sedan. :D
  • 150mphclub150mphclub Member Posts: 316
    Why don't you pop for the fee to attend the X-hileration event hosted by Mercedes at race tracks around the country? You could actually drive and compare the C350 to the 330 at a bonafide track (ours was held at indy race park) along with a dozen or more other cars. It might change your opinion, or at least give your opinion some credibility.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Some credibility? i've driven a c-class. it's not my kind of car. I flat out don't like MB. I'd take an acura, infiniti (undriven), infiniti, audi and pretty much anything non-american in this class over an MB.

    To each his own. I have no use for MB. Sorry. It could be worse, it could be a CTS...gag.
  • tturedraidertturedraider Member Posts: 159
    I agree, to each his or her own. I think "wco81" and "johnny420" expressed the difference quite well.....MB has chosen more luxury over performance and BMW has chosen more performance over luxury.

    I think MBs are some beautiful cars and quite nice to drive. I also think BMWs are some beautiful cars (crazy about the new 3) and the 3 is a blast to drive. :P

    I just recently attended a driving event where I drove the MB E350 and C350 and the BMW 325i on a closed course. Both MBs handle quite well. But, imo, neither MB came close to matching the road grip, turn handling and general "tossability" and pure driving fun of the 325i. I've also driven the 330i Sport pkg on a closed course recently and with its extra power it's just that much more fun.

    I absolutely love the tight, "right on" steering of the 3s. BMWs just feel like they are built to be driven.....fast!! :):D :shades:

    .02
  • billyperksbillyperks Member Posts: 449
    Give me a E55 AMG any day of the week and twice on Sundays. :)

    That car is a beast.
  • dave330idave330i Member Posts: 893
    "Give me a E55 AMG any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

    That car is a beast."

    I wouldn't call E55 AMG entry-level luxury.

    For the money I'd get an E39 M5, and maybe spend the price diff on S3 treatment.
  • billyperksbillyperks Member Posts: 449
    Sure Dave, the M5 is a monster too, but I was trying to imply to Blueguy that he shouldn't knock all MB cars.
    Personally, I wouldn't buy a MB without the AMG kit-
    C55- AMG
    E55- AMG
    S55- AMG

    Those are the ones I would buy; for my wife the E350 4MATIC would suffice.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Personally I wouldn't buy a Mercedes with the AMG kit. Why? Correct me if I'm wrong, but at least here in the U.S.A., aren't all AMG versions equipped with a slushbox transmission? Ugh!

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • dave330idave330i Member Posts: 893
    "Correct me if I'm wrong, but at least here in the U.S.A., aren't all AMG versions equipped with a slushbox transmission? Ugh!"

    I thought all AMGs (regardless of country) have slushbox.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    That wouldn't surprise me in the least. :P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • billyperksbillyperks Member Posts: 449
    I know its a slush box but they are pretty responsive and fast.
    The C55 and Audi's S4 (manual) are neck and neck in a recent car magazine article.

    I have test driven the E55 and that autamatic is something special.

    But I see your point- a real driver always leans towards a manual.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    It sorta sounds like we are on the same page. ;-) I've driven plenty of cars that were a LOT faster than my daily driver, however, if that car had an automatic transmission (including a DSG type), the car would contain zero lust factor as far as I was concerned.

    While I absolutely believe that folks should be able to buy and drive what suits them the best (and should never be criticized for said choice), from my personal perspective at least, Automatic transmissions should be limited to MiniVans and other such pedestrian transportation. Said another way, every car that is covered by this discussion SHOULD offer a three pedal manual transmission as at least an extra cost option. Period, full stop, the end. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • potemkinpotemkin Member Posts: 195
    My comment...

    [paste everything Shipo just said here]
  • jiminthehillsjiminthehills Member Posts: 60
    I would like to pose a couple of HOT questions to all of you that have the Ebony interior in any car that you have previously owned (I also posted this on another TL site) -

    Is it as hot as I think it is in the summer :cry: ?

    If so, I am really conflicted because I'm trying to stay as cool as possible within my two ideal color combinations for an 06 6MT....

    Now that I have waited 3 years to get my TL (when they finally offer WDP w/ Ebony for 2006 - got to love it :D ), people are telling me that this may, in fact, be the "warmer" combination in the summer (So Cal) than my second favorite (Anthracite w/ Quartz). Please tell me it isn't so.....

    Any opinions from any of you that have had previous cars w/ these general color combos?

    Is a dark exterior/light interior a cooler temperature combo than light exterior/dark interior?

    Logic would tell me that this is not the case, but I have searched these forums for a while now and haven't found anything definitive on this so far.....
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Does the TL have the ability to drop the windows and open the sunroof from the fob ala 3 series/G35? If so the color scheme won't be a problem with a TL in socal.
  • bplayerbplayer Member Posts: 56
    Left in direct sun shining on the seats, a dark exterior/light interior should be a bit cooler, but if the sun is directly overhead the dark exterior could be hotter. Light exterior and interior would be the coolest.

    There are some things that you can do. Use a metallic sun shade, leave the windows open a crack, and the sun roof popped up. When you come back to the car, open all the windows and wait a minute before getting in. Also leave them open for a few minutes after driving off with the a/c running.
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