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But I can assure you that you will feel exasperation when those auto mags continue picking BMW as a number one choice! Your simple crystal jewelery theory will fail to explain auto mag choices.
Why not just forget auto rags and your theories. Just go out there and do your own test drive comparisons. My brother-in-law test drove a Infiniti G35, a BMW330i and a Lexus ES 330. He chose a ES330 and thinks I am nuts in trying to persuade him that a Infiniti G35 or BMW330i are more exciting cars. To each his own!
True, but we're talking about Entry-level luxury performance sedans on this forum. By most accounts that started with 3 series. 2002's were very spartan.
Match what? G35 have long surpassed the 5 series in "roadfeel" (is that a German word, just kidding ;-) and at-the-limit handling.
BTW, what does the M35/45 compete with then?
In price it competes against 5 series, but in size, once again, half a size bigger (or slightly less than that). Also notice, the difference in wheel base among G, M and Q is only a couple inches (112 ~ 114) whereas the difference among the BMW's is quite wide, from 108 all the way to 117, with 5 smack in the 113", closest to G, M and Q.
Huh??
5 series is actually a very staid car, compared to 3 series and G35.
So did entry-level luxury performance sedan market exist or not before the 3 series? Didn't BMW have to steal sedan market buyers for its 3 series? That's the point I have been making, BMW wins points by charging premium for a small sedan that naturally out-handles much bigger competitions at the same price point.
MPG: Which one has 21/29 and which one has 24/32?
That is a 15% engineering handicap. Why can't BMW just copy a Lexus? Is it really that hard to make a copy with those over flow of German engineers that is so hard to lay off?
Come on, 15%? Is this the best we can get after that 7 long years?
Maybe on your planet. The G35 in my time with it was a fun car but its NVH was unbearable, the tranny notchy and the car's handling was skittish (especially when pushed...the FM platform has a nasty proclivity for snap oversteer). Of course this is just my experience driving manual versions and my friends automatic.
You might be among the very few people on the planet to arive at the conclusion that the 5-Series is "very staid". Coupled with your off-the-charts opinions in general, allow me say that you that you are coming at this from someplace I've never heard of :P
Some humans are actually larger than the average Hobbit, so no "performance" car will do if it is impossible to drive comfortably. That said, the 5-Series sedans and estates continue to set the bar from a "total balance" performance perspective.
Your comments are simply out there on their own and do not offer an intelligent counter-point to the relative performance merits of BMW and Infiniti. Trust me, if you and I were to show up at Road Atlanta in our respective auto's, I'd give myself a better than even chance to out run you over a 10-lap circuit. You can drive the G35 (or your SAAB) and I'll drive my little '03 530SP and the issue of being "staid" will most likely be laid to rest.
So your point is a smaller car will naturally outhandle a bigger car everything else being equal? So a Civic can outhandle a 550?
MPG: Which one has 21/29 and which one has 24/32?
LOL, I am so impressed!!! It just makes me want to jump right out of my seat and place an order for that potent, agile and high-performance king called the Lexus IS250! :P
Regarding MPG, did you compare a manual IS250 to a manual BMW325i? Contrary to your example above the manual BMW has a bit of an edge over the manual IS250 in terms of MPG!
BUT I dont think BMW engineers are too concerned about MPG for a 325i when they have fuel miser turbodiesel versions of the e90 (BMW intends to sell diesels to our continent in a few years)
Where's your sense of adventure? ;-) What you have described is the soul of a 911, in case you did not notice, served up in smaller portions.
Not sure where you are getting your strawman. A Ferrari 550 cost 15 times as much as a Civic, and a BMW 550i costs nearly 5 times as much. If that's what it takes to beat the lowly Civic . . . On the other hand, when cost are anywhere within shouting distance, a 550i certainly lags a 330i in the handling department.
Ummm, last time I checked, BMW was not in the business of producing V6 engines. The only six pot engines that they produce are of the inline six or I6 configuration, and to the best of my knowledge, they have never produced a single V6 engine for a production car.
Best Regards,
Shipo
So back to your original point, they invented the market by taking a small sedan and making it fun to drive. And then along comes the competitors making bigger cars and the E46 gets dinged. But now the shoe is on the other foot as the 330i is bigger than the IS350 and can still outhandle it.
The disparity in hp is only temporary as BMW is working on it's version of the 3.5L twin-turbo engin.
No. BMW created that market.
"BMW wins points by charging premium for a small sedan that naturally out-handles much bigger competitions at the same price point."
The flaw in your arguement is that BMW isn't building a small car, it's the competitions (mostly Japanese) that's building a big cars.
As I remember, they ranked the cars from most sportiest: M3, CTS-V and then M5. It does seem that smaller size (and weight, in most cases) tends to give you the advantage in agility and maneuverability (handling) when everything else (drivetrain, dynamics, suspension......) are comparable.
Personally, I wouldn't bet a 530SP against a G35 w/sport. Against a SAAB......., of course.
every available option except Navigation,36months of paid maintenance. And the car barely breaks $35,000 M.S.R.P.
And no BlueTooth and no AWD.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Then again there is the G35. A price difference of $7,000 there? Nope, more like $1,000 (as close to apples to apples as possible). Of course while the G35 apparently cannot get around a race track as fast as the 330i can, it can still handily destroy the aforementioned 93 Aero in that same environment.
The Saab is a competent car (I drove one last week), but it ain't no performance oriented RWD sedan, and it doesn't drive like one either.
Me, I'll spend that $7,000 and figure that the three years of smiles on my face was well worth not going to Aruba for three weeks. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Can you please tell me in what order which is best and which is worst.
If you are, are you prepared for lots of conflicting answers and potentially heated disucssion?
Personally I'd rank them as follows:
BMW 550i 6-Speed
BMW M3 6-Speed (not a sedan by the way)
Mercedes-Benz C55
Cadillac CTS-V
Best Regards,
Shipo
If you want a fast highway cruiser for you and guests that won't beat you up on the rough roads, but won't let you down when the road gets twisty, 550i all the way.
If you want hard-core performance all the time and want to be able to get the kids "scared straight" in the twisties, CTS-V will do nicely.
If you want all out balls-to-the-wall performance for you and a mate, and you don't mind your body taking a little beating on the city streets, the M3 will work.
If you want to blaze down the freeway as hard as you can and don't mind slowing down a bit for the occasional bend in the road, the C55 will suit.
By process of elimination, the M3 is the only coupe in the bunch so out with that. The 550i is much bigger than the others so out it goes. By mentioning the M3, you showed that you are more on the sport side of the spectrum, and mentioning the 550i showed that you probably have passengers to haul from time to time. Both of those eliminate the C55 and that just leaves the CTS-V.
Get the CTS-V!
Can you please tell me in what order which is best and which is worst."
You need to define what's best and worst. Are you talking about overall performance, straight line acceleration, luxury?
Granted, a lesser skilled driver in a 997 today could drive around a road course more easily today than he/she could in a pre-993 911. Today's RWD cars - at least the ones we are discussing in this forum - are all competent... some moreso than others. The 3-Series BMW offers the finest driving experience in its class, IMO. That is not to say the IS and G are incompetent - far from it. The little things add up over the course of a road race, and I believe the 330 shines when taking this into account.
The day-to-day driving experience evens the field to a certain degree, and that is the world that contributes to the perspective taken by many drivers of these autos. Some just like knowing they have a superior driving machine, some prefer creature comforts, some are driven by their own sense of styling, etc... there is something for everyone in this class.
M3 = too boy racer for me. Plus it's a coupe. Blech.
550i = last choice. Great exterior, wonderful power, manual tranny. And it's only 52-53k through ED with sport-package.
What is so wrong with Mercedes-Benz in your eyes? I'm curious. Dynamics, reliability, styling what?
M
Test drive both, and go with the 1 you like better. Personally, I'd go with M3.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Yes, yes, don't care about styling and add in engineering. They're not my kinda company. I see them as the european caddy - ie all flash and dazzle, no substance.
Perception, to each his own I guess. Thankfully that isn't the case.
M
M
Wife and I test drove a '04 C230 with Auto transmission, and I didn't think much of it. It was better than TL (just about anything is), but not in the same league as BMW. For the money, I'd prefer if the wife chooses A3.
Loved the feel of the shifter too.
Not much in terms of details in the article below!
2007 G40
G40: 3.8L VQ w/ 320 hp ($34,000)
G50: 4.8L VK w/ 380 hp ($40,000)
Better interior and 6 speed auto transmission is a given. And please keep the weight down!