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Yes and I enjoy his posts as well. He and I have a basic disconnect about the parameters of the conversation. In that regard we're both right and wrong.
Regarding tests in the mags about AWD vs RWD. Unless the mags drive in my conditions in my neighborhood in my traffic, my experience trumps their journalistic opinion.
Personally I've always been inclined to bump the settings a little. IIRC, I usually ran 33/39 in my 328i, 32/38 in my 530i with the summer tires, and 34/38 with my winter tires. I came up with those settings simply by driving different pressures and deciding what felt the best. Scientific? Not even a little. Did it work for me? Yup. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
"The g35x is .05% heavier than the g35. Just what is this huge problem?"
I haven't looked at the actual weight of the G35 anytime recently, however, I'm thinking that 150 pounds is more like 5% not 0.05%. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
I did reply with the opinion that the 200lb weight difference between the rwd g35 and awd g35x was not any big deal IMHO for street driving. Backed up by my anecdotal 25 mpg on the highway on a recent road trip with said g35x.
I have been trying to be respectful to all reasoned and thought out responses, ok
I am pretty darn sure that my Outback with AS performance tires will do a 20 degree hill from a stop in snow.
I assume that everyone knows that there is a difference between a 20% grade and a 20-degree grade! Percent grade refers to "rise over run", or basically the tangent of the angle. A 20% grade is quite a bit less steep than 20 degrees, and in fact a 100% grade would be exactly 45 degrees.
I knew that, however, my guess is that that is a charitable assumption at best. ;-)
Regarding the driveways in question, two of them do in fact climb for some of their distance at ridiculous angles (well in excess of a 50% grade is my SOTP guess).
Regarding grades and regularly traveled roads, IIRC, the interstate highway system is limited to 8%, even in the most difficult to traverse areas of the Rockies and the Sierra Nevadas. Other areas vary; however, it is my understanding that most places around the country have adopted the 8% limit (as in back in the early 1960s) for all new road construction. Does that mean that steep hills are going away? Nope. Many roads are "Grandfathered" in, and then there is the whole driveway issue like in my neighborhood. Does that mean that there are not going to be any new roads that exceed 8%? Nope as well. Exceptions are bound to pop up here and there.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Sorry, I didn't realize that growing up in the snow belt, owning all manner of RWD, FWD, and AWD cars over the years, and completing a variety of advanced driving schools doesn't qualify me to post here. Please forgive my intrusion.
In any event, that means a 20% grade is approx. a 11.3 degree angle, and a 20-degree angle would be a 36% grade. Correct? Simple trig?
Anyway, back to my original statement. My Subie with AS performance tires will do a 20-degree grade aka 36% grade, and I believe most AWD cars in this situation can negotiate the angle as well while most two-legged cars would be floundering like fish trying to swim up a waterfall.
I am now tempted to put winter tires on my 530 and run some empirical tests with both cars. After all, this RWD/AWD debate is cyclical with no sign of letting up. And inevitably, Shipo is always right in the middle of it, fighting for truth and justice with his snowy New Hampshire anecdotes... and wisdom of course.
;-)
200 lbs is like me driving with my wife and 80 lbs. of landscapers bark in car. If you can't tell the difference in acceleration, handling, and ride quality, then you certainly won't notice a few more hundred pounds of an SUV. And if you don't care about fuel economy and the availabilty of a manual transmission, that's your personal preference. Many people do.
Backed up by my anecdotal 25 mpg on the highway on a recent road trip with said g35x.
Although my tongue was in my cheek, the fact remains that the 4-Runner and G35X have similar horsepower, length, wheelbase, price, and amenties. No "anecdotal" information there. The G35X, like the 4-Runner, forces it's owner to compromise driving dynamics for the sake of AWD.
My point is that if you live someplace where snow and ice are major forces for months out of the year, the G35X is not a panacea for 4-seasons motoring. On the other hand, if snow is merely a minor annoyance, why suffer all the AWD sacrifices year-round for just a smidge more road confidence a few days a year?
Snow tires and slower speeds are 90% of the solution for winter driving. On the days where that's not enough to get you to your destination, no AWD Sport sedan is gonna cut it.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=3888
Best Regards,
Shipo
Most reviewers that have driven both the g35 and the g35x say that there is about a .3 second difference in 0-60 times. These same reviewers, have also stated they cannot really tell the difference in handling between the two cars. Have you ever driven either car?
I don't see much difference in real world performance numbers between the rwd version and the awd version. The g35x has all of the advantages of awd when needed and the driving dynamics of a rwd sport sedan when the roads are dry. :P
Yup, and I'm illustrating the disadvantages. Fair enough?
Your tongue in cheek comparison to the 4 runner while cute, really offers nothing germane to this discussion.
On the contrary, it shows a progression from more sporting/less weather capable to more weather capable/less sporting. For example, on a sport to weather capable scale of 1 to 10, 1 being a Lotus Elise and 10 being a Hummer H1, the G35 is a 3 and the 4-Runner is a 7. I'm saying the G35X is a 4.
My point (again) is simply that a vehicle must sacrifice measures of sport to gain measures weather capability. The G35X, while certainly more sport biased than a 4-Runner, nevertheless makes some of the same SUV sacrifices in order to offer AWD traction. The decision to live with (purchase) those sacrifices is a personal one.
Most reviewers that have driven both the g35 and the g35x say that there is about a .3 second difference in 0-60 times. These same reviewers, have also stated they cannot really tell the difference in handling between the two cars.
To use your own words, Real world experience is probably more useful than magazine articles"
Yes, I have driven both cars (back-to-back) and yes, I felt a definite difference in ride and handling. Your perception obviously differs.
I don't see much difference in real world performance numbers between the rwd version and the awd version.
The numbers may be close, but they FEEL and respond differently.
The g35x has all of the advantages of awd when needed and the driving dynamics of a rwd sport sedan when the roads are dry.
No, it has the driving dynamics of a 200 lb heavier rwd sport sedan when the roads are dry. Just because you can't tell the difference doesn't mean it isn't there.
I decided the slight differences between the two cars, driving the roads that I drive, means the g35x was the compelling choice.
No, it has the driving dynamics of a 200 lb heavier rwd sport sedan when the roads are dry. Just because you can't tell the difference doesn't mean it isn't there.
If you put the snow tires onto the rwd G 35, it will probably lose the slight handling advantages over the g35x with the All season rubber
As they say, YMMV.
:confuse:
Yes, but you saying it's a 4 doesn't make it so. I can't recall the review that I read before getting the G35x but they test drove both cars and felt the G35x performed better on the sport side due to the extra weight giving the driver more confidence going into and around turns. To me this makes sense and was coming from an unbiased source. Given your rating scale the reviewer would have given the G35x something lower than a 3, maybe a 2.5 or 2.6. Personally, after driving both I couldn't tell a difference when taking an on-ramp at the highest speed I was comfortable taking.
Yes, I have driven both cars (back-to-back) and yes, I felt a definite difference in ride and handling. Your perception obviously differs.
I suspect your findings were based on your perception heading into the test drives that the AWD couldn't perform as well given the extra weight and everything else you seem to know about cars. Real world driving and how the car feels when you drive it is the only test and opinion that matters when you're spending your own money. Too bad we couldn't have like a Coke/Pepsi blindfold test and see the results. I'm sure it would be a 50/50 split between the awd vs. rwd G35 ... but then again that's just my opinion
Scott
On dry pavement, I completely agree.
Of course you're right. If I had to try for complete accuracy, I'd rate the G35 a 3 and the G35X a 3.2. It was easier to illustrate my point with round numbers, but of course it's my completely subjective opinion.
I also agree that a heavier car can feel more "planted" and confidence inspiring. I won't deny that feeling appeals to many people.
Too bad we couldn't have like a Coke/Pepsi blindfold test and see the results. I'm sure it would be a 50/50 split between the awd vs. rwd G35
Yup, I'm sure most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
I should also admit that much of my bias stems from my opinion that the RWD G35 is itself too big and heavy. I don't know how anyone can call such a leviathan a "sport sedan," and adding 200 lbs just fuels my fire.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=3888
Ummm, I'd like to take this opportunity to say, "Duh! My bad."
Yup, that's exactly the article that I was referring to. When I glanced at it yesterday I noticed a November 2005 date at the top of the page and didn't bother to look any further. Of course the date was yesterday's date and the REAL publication date was May of 1999.
So, that said, it seems that my memory is a little faulty in that a RWD vs. AWD model shod like for like will show the AWD model being able to handle a little better than its RWD sibling. That one exception aside, my basic premise of a winter tire equipped RWD sedan being more capable in the snow (except for acceleration/hill climb) versus its all-season equipped AWD stable mate seems to be well proven out in this article.
Per Pat's suggestion of getting back on topic, I suggest that if we want to continue this discussion we should create a new topic, maybe "AWD cars with All-Season tires vs. 2WD cars with winter tires". Yes, no?
Best Regards,
Shipo
Agree. But I suggest just making it "AWD vs 2WD" which covers everything... handling, tires, snow, rain, New Hampshire, The Bronx, Mexico etc.
;-)
In braking, yes a clear advantage. The slalom test showed about a 1/2 mph advantage for the rwd winter tire shod Mercedes Vs. the all season shod awd copy. Not really much difference there. IF you factor in the fact that when the roads are not snow covered, your winter tire shod car will be a poor performer compared to the awd car with all season rubber, awd still offers some compelling advantages.
I hope everyone has a safe and fun Thanksgiving
All said, I need a car that has excellent acceleration, lot of highway driving everyday - so I want some pick up. I don't drive to the apex of turns anymore, but I don't want to feel the thing rolling all over the place either. I want it to be comfortable. I am in it 3 hours a day - and it needs to be reliable. I have a really long commute, and I have no desire sit on the side of the rode. I will be shooting to put 200K on the car, or more. Finally it has to have an A/T so my wife can drive it too. I don't want to go any higher than $40K out the door and would prefer 35-36.
What would the folks here choose and why.?
Thx
Acura RL (everything you would want if you can squeeze into $40K OTD).
Infiniti G35x (easily fits your budget)
Audi A4 Quattro (may have to compromise on some options to fit budget)
Infiniti M35x (likely outside budget range)
VW Passat 3.6L 4motion (roomier than A4 but not as much luxury)
Take as close look at options, decide what you need, want, and then price the vehicles.
With winter tires you should do fine in mountains.
But one thing that nobody ever mentions is ground clearence. The sedans all probably have only five or so inches of clearence at suspension mounting points, and my car seems to have even less at the front chin. I've been lucky so far, but that icy, boulder-like residue left by plows does give me pause. Maybe an Infiniti FX35 might suit your needs. Good luck.
The Subie has a lot of ground clearance, tight suspension, plenty of room and a nicely powered turbo engine at 250 hp with 250 lb-ft of torque at 3800 RPM. It is also a bang-for-buck king in addition to top notch reliability. Price ranges from $28.6K to about $34K. Given your criteria, this is the one I would choose. It's a great all-around beast of burden.
Audi A4 Quattro 2.0T
Infiniti G35x
Lexus IS250 AWD
BMW 325xi
Acura TL (not AWD, but on my list anyway)
I'm currently in a 2003 Passat Turbo 4-cyl. I like the driving qualities, want a more upscale interior as well as some extra power and the AWD. Not sold on the look of the new Passat, looking to go to a more premium brand.
Just started looking, drove the G35x today which had nice amenities but the 280hp is probably more power than I need at the expense of some things that for me should be a no-brainer at this price range (i.e., trip computer). It also drives a little loud (the sales guy described it as the trademark Infiniti "engine growl"). My commute is beat-up city streets, so I'm looking for a soft ride (as opposed to an overly-tight sport suspension).
Haven't yet determined which of the ones on my "list" is the benchmark against which all others will be measured -- suffice it to say that, for me, the '03 Passat is a pretty good benchmark at this point. Seems like many consider the BMW 3-series to be the benchmark, particularly for those like me who like the "German-engineered" driving experience (whatever that means). I'm particularly interested in anybody's initial reactions to the new Lexus IS250 AWD -- there doesn't seem to be much out there on it yet. Given that I haven't driven the Audi, Lexus, BMW, or Acura yet, I'm open to any input.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts and feedback.
Another criteria to consider is space, especially in the back set. If you are not tall or typically very infrequently have average size people in the back then all these cars will be fine. If space is an issue, I think the IS250 will be the first drop out.
RWD bias of the awd package.
G35x has a larger interior volume than the BMW 3 series.
Have owned German autos prior, My 2000 Passat glx was a wonderful car, but needed a timing belt (around $1K), AM radio had stopped working (Again, $400 repair to keep stock antenna with existing radio)and finally, the interior at 75K miles was squeaking a lot. Finally, my assumption that a Japanese automobile will be more reliable than its German competitors.
So far I'm happy with the choice. Don't know about the 200K miles, but I think the Infiniti has a better shot than most. You have to drive the cars that fit your parameters, and pick which one fits your budget, and tickles your fancy the best. There are a lot of cars for you to choose from have fun shopping!
Drove the IS250 and the Acura today. Yes, the IS250 is definitely tight on interior space as you noted, bplayer. Not just the back seat (ridiculously little legroom), but headroom throughout -- and I'm only 5'9" on a good day. Having said that, the IS has all the features I want without paying extra for a bunch of features I don't want. The heated AND ventilated seats are great, the push-button start is awesome (as with the G35x). The IS250 redesign is fantastic! I found the pickup on the highway to be underwhelming -- and I wasn't looking for outrageous. It felt like my Passat turbo would probably hold its own with the Lexus on a pull-out-and-pass test head-to-head. The Lexus dealership setup was truly impressive -- the free carwashes, TV room, coffee bar, eat-off-the-floor service dept., massive fleet of service-loaner vehicles, pickup/dropoff service, etc. -- my daughter compared it to a Westin hotel.
The Acura had a great set of standard features. I was amazed at the pricepoint with all those features included -- acknowledging, of course, that if it were an AWD it would likely be +/-$2k more. Much roomier than the Lexus, closer to the G35x in interior space but not as luxuriously-appointed. The dashboard gauges looked dated ('80s or '90s styling). Despite the 3.2L V6 which is more than adequate for my purposes, it didn't have the power of the Infiniti. My first car was a Honda and I love the Honda/Acura quality and reliability.
Both the Lexus and Acura handled rough roads firmly but not too stiff.
mnrep2, your experience is reminding me that I'm glad to be getting out of my Passat before the warranty expires. I've already had to have my antenna replaced under warranty as well as the seat-heater (shorted out and burned my jeans!). I wonder if Audis have similar reliability issues?
Next up -- the bimmer and the A4. Without driving it, on paper the 325xi looks like it'll require a number of options to compare to the others that will put it several thousand dollars higher. I've got high hopes for the A4 -- expecting it to come in at a price-point and features that fit my budget and preferences (b/c I'll probably be willing to take the 2.0L instead of the 3.2L, a compromise that for me saves $$).
The Audi/BMW options won't cost you for service until 50k miles.
Enjoy the hunt for your perfect car
Buff, I guess you can factor an extra $800.00 in considering the Acura
The Audi/BMW options won't cost you for service until 50k miles. "
Dealers know that and will often throw in oil changes for a couple of years. I paid nothing for service on my Infiniti for the first 2+ years.
Are you saying that the G35 is much more luxurious than the TL?
You got to be joking, that has always been the G35 downfall- its interior.
I can get two sets of golf clubs in a 2005 G35x. You will have to give us more information, if you want more suggestions.
Trying to get away from a station wagon - back to a sedan.
The new A4 looks great, but still lacks cargo space.
G35X has high mpg; best overall is Acura TL - is the RL just too much car?
And then there's that cult favorite, the Outback. Would this be in the same class as the others?
Thanking you all for your input.
The 330i was very much a drivers car but I just didn't like the interior that much and truthfully didn't really like the snobby attitude at the dealership so that turned me off to them.
The G35 had tons of torque but the little things really bugged me. For example the power seat controls being located up top and the interior didn't seem to have as high quality materials as the others I had driven. In addition the fuel economy leaves alot to be desired.
My last stop was The Collection. They sell Ferrari, Porsche, Maserati and Audi. No sooner did I walk in when I was being offered coffee and pastrys. The dealership was gorgeous and the sales guy was a no b.s type of guy who I liked. I didn't really like the A4's I saw until I saw one with the S-Line package. Wow! what a looker. The interior was the finest I have ever sat in and it was tight and drove beautifully ( 2.0t , 6 spd). I was sold. I knew Audis depreciate horribly so leasing was the only option for me. They had a great 24 month lease program with 75% residual value and .00139 money factor. That simply cannot be beat. I am driving a 40k car with nothing down and $480 a month as well as free maintenance to boot. Trust me, I was never a fan of Audi but after driving all 4 there was no comparison. Just make sure you get the S line package.
Good luck to all.
I have narrowed to the two extremes G35X and the Outback XT Limited for a variety of reasons. I need AWD so these are where I have landed.
Frankly, I like the Audi best of all, but nobody seems to be able to convince me of the reliability and service experience that I desire. It is a great drive, but these boards continue to say never own outside of warranty. Well, I can't accept that. I put far too many miles on a car to be trading every 1.5 years.
On the Passat - my wife has an '02 4-motion that has been a dream, but her friends had nightmares on the same car and traded within 6 months. Not into roulette.
On the XT, the owners say it is a great value, handles well and great $$$ value. With their incentives you can out around 30K-32K depending on option load. I did a check of used cars on carsdirect.com and there are a lot with 150K+ miles. Add in that CR rated the Subaru Outback as one of the most reliable used cars to purchase.
I think I can get a G35x for $36K without TTL. I drove that car for an hour the other day. Comfortable, handled well, powerful. And my sister-in-law says it handled beautifully in the snow and ice. Don't love the gas mileage and I really don't need 300HP, but I trust Japanese reliability above Audi.
BTW I looked at BMW xi, nice car, but can't justify the premium for the badge.
On the $36K, got your point. A relative paid 35.3 or something like that last year. I just saw on the other board 34.4 for exactly what I am looking for. A/T, premium and something else. So that draws the price diff down to about $4K.
As a former C4S owner, how is the reliability of the Porsche compared to BMW? And, how is the the cost within the warranty and after warranty is expired?
Does it like BMW, which is pretty costly?
I am thinking about getting the new C4S.
Thank you very much
There's no comparing a VW/MB/Audi/BMW to a Porsche for build quality or longevity.