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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Looking back on the posts, if you were trying to suggest that folks who live in states who determine taxes by MSRP take it on the chin by acquiring high value cars...I guess they do.

    The either have to pony up the taxes or move.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,618
    The responses (oh, there weren't any) speak to the number of people who actually drive these vehicles.

    Poseurs? Well, of course, and my point is?

    There's nothing wrong with driving a car because you look good in it. . .it says here, but those who work their cars and keep them for awhile fit into a different category.

    Does anyone who posts here want to be in that category? I'm guessing . . . no.

    Being seen in whatever vehicle (work parking lot or commuting) is the real deal?

    I'm going to guess . . . yes.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    The responses (oh, there weren't any) speak to the number of people who actually drive these vehicles.

    Poseurs? Well, of course, and my point is?

    There's nothing wrong with driving a car because you look good in it. . .it says here, but those who work their cars and keep them for awhile fit into a different category.

    Does anyone who posts here want to be in that category? I'm guessing . . . no.

    Being seen in whatever vehicle (work parking lot or commuting) is the real deal?

    I'm going to guess . . . yes.


    What are you talking about? Honestly, the post this is connected to doesn't seem to gel with your sudden outburst.

    I did some research and found this post (5019) cdnpinhead, "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" #5019, 12 Dec 2005 6:25 pm

    have three requirements for my lux or "near-lux" car: 1) manual transmission, 2) rear-wheel drive, 3) must carry my bicycle inside (really big back seat, fold-down seatbacks or Avant style)....The only three (lux or near-lux) vehicles on the planet that meet my requirements are the BMW 3, the BMW 5 and the G35 coupe.

    WTF? Maybe a 5 or 3 wagon could hold a bike. A G35 coupe? Did you try that? I can't see how that's possible given the fact the G35's trunk is tiny and it's backseat is a torture chamber.

    Given that, I compromised and added the IS250 (no fold-down seat), the A4 Avant (AWD) & the A3 (front-wheel drive) to my matrix.

    The A4 avant, A3 and Matrix seem realistic. Might as well go Mazda3 - better handling than the other 3 and much better manual shifter too. The IS250 simply makes no sense given your bike requirement...the backseat in the IS250/350 is a joke.

    CTS...again, this seems weird with your bike requirement. FWIW, I think the CTS and IS250/350 handle like pigs.

    Is this what you wanted? I've driven all the cars you mentioned (some not at wagons though).
  • gordonwdgordonwd Member Posts: 337
    Although it makes me cringe to actually agree with blueguy ;) , I do agree that your list of cars is odd considering your original requirements. Especially the G35 coupe.

    FWIW, I have a '04 325i sedan. I have the winter package that includes the fold-down seats, and I have carried my bicycle a number of times with the seats folded down -- it fits quite well although it helps if I pull the seat post out as well as removing the front wheel. In the winter, that built-in ski bag is really a nice feature and will hold two pairs of cross-country skis without having to fold the seats down.

    One other feature notable for bicyclists (and others): the E46, at least, has built-in roof-rack mounting points. I bought a Thule rack made especially for this car, so when my wife and I are going somewhere together to ride, it just takes a few short minutes to put the rack on with both bikes. I'm not sure if the E90 has these mounts -- it's not something that's listed in the brochures and I even owned the car for a while before I discovered them!
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Gee, thanks. :D
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    I'm not sure if the E90 has these mounts -- it's not something that's listed in the brochures and I even owned the car for a while before I discovered them!

    Yes, the E90 has the same type of mounting points as the previous E46. I have no idea if they are the same size/spacing, but the E90 has them.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Looking back on the posts, if you were trying to suggest that folks who live in states who determine taxes by MSRP take it on the chin by acquiring high value cars...I guess they do.

    The key is not "high value" but inflated MSRP. e.g. two cars, both selling for $38k or leasing for $550/mo . . . they have the same "value," but if one has an MSRP of $55k and the other's is $40k, there is a significant difference in the tax due despite the identical market price. It's the same reason why I hate large mail-in rebates at local retailers; the consumers end up paying much higher sales tax rate.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Insurance, that's a point we can comiserate: NJ and MA have some the highest insurance rates in the country.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,618
    Arizona can play too. Thousands of cars are stolen regularly and sent "elsewhere." It'd be un-PC to mention where. Point being, they aren't recovered.

    AZ insurance rates (which I've been told are among the highest in the country) are driven primarily by theft & also by accidents resulting from a wide variety of drivers from everywhere.

    Oh boy.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "The key is not "high value" but inflated MSRP"

    You're splitting hairs. Inflated MSRP implies a value judgement. Buying a car is a value judgment, the price is the price. It costs what it costs to you the consumer.
  • sosksosk Member Posts: 42
    Hi---- I'm 50-ish & a recent empty nester. I typically keep a car around 10-12 years. Have had Buick sedans but am now ready for a bit of fun. I mostly drive 12 miles a day, straight down 1 street to work & back (boring, I know!), with a little more driving over the weekend.

    I was looking hard at '04 & '05 BMW 330i's. Loved the drive but thought the interior lacked some of the pleasantries that most all cars have these days, even my '95 Buick!

    I LOVE the exterior of the G35 coupe and thought it was really fun to drive, but it seemed so noisy when I sat in the back seat.

    Now I'm looking hard at the Lexus IS250, and I like it a LOT. I've also looked at an Acura TSX. I really am trying to stay in a smaller car, no longer than the TSX's 183".

    Anyone have any other ideas as to what I should look at?
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,618
    Check out the Cadillac CTS & the Mercedes C230. With those included, your shopping list will look much like mine.

    If you're buying something soon & don't want a manual transmission (which I do), give the Lincoln LS a look. As with other American cars, the MSRP (& even the invoice) is merely a suggestion -- $5 - 8K off is the rule, rather than the exception.

    Have fun.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • sosksosk Member Posts: 42
    I thought the Caddy CTS was too big. And I think I thought the Lincoln LS was too, but I'll go look again. I was hoping the new Lincoln Zephyr would be smaller than it is. Why is it so hard (for me) to find a SMALL luxury semi-sporty car?

    Luckily my Regal is running just fine & I'm in no hurry. We've gotten spoiled having had no car payments for quite a long time. Maybe I should just drive the 'ole girl till she gives in!
  • jamesspotjamesspot Member Posts: 57
    Acura TL, IS350, or new Mercedes C350. If you prefer sporty, semi-luxury the BMW and G35 may be the better choice.
  • kronogoosekronogoose Member Posts: 116
    I think you'll be hard pressed to find many options under your length requirement of 183". My limit is 188", due to my garage, so length is one of the first dimensions I check. :)

    I guess it depends on your definition of luxury: are you looking for a "luxury" nameplate, or just "luxurious" amenities, like leather and power everything?

    In addition to the Mercedes C-class and BMW 3-series, the Volvo S40 and Audi A3 would meet your size requirement. I personally would be concerned with the reliability of those options and would lean more toward your choices from Lexus and Acura. If you're willing to do a coupe, you may want to look at the RSX, too.

    If you just want leather and other goodies, you may want to consider a Mazda 3, a Subaru Impreza or a Saab 9-2X (which is basically a gussied-up Impreza). Each of these can be had with leather, sunroof, upgraded audio, etc., while still meeting your length requirement.

    If a shorter length is truly a requirement you may also want to consider a small SUV (I know, it's probably blasphemy here and probably belongs on a different forum, but)--several choices would meet your requirement and add cargo capacity, too.

    My two cents: the IS250 is absolutely, hands down the most attractive car on the list!

    Best of luck and happy car hunting.

    Greg
  • sosksosk Member Posts: 42
    Hi Greg--

    It IS a challenge finding something under 183"! I guess I can go larger; I just don't want to - my car now is 193" & I just like the smaller ones. I don't care about a luxury nameplate - I just like the amenities, like leather & xenon lights & maybe the built-in garage door opener, and I want illuminated radio controls on my steering wheel (my old Buick has those but my hubby's new Maxima's are not illuminated). I just can't do an SUV!!

    I haven't driven the Volvo S40 yet but I will - it looks kinda cute! My ex-brother-in-law just retired from being pretty high up at Ford & he told me to stay away from the Volvo! He recommends the IS.

    I didn't like the dash on the Saab 9-3, but I'll surf now & look at the 9-2x you mentioned, as well as the Mazda & Subaru.

    I looked at the RSX but felt it was a little too bare-bones for me. The TSX is probably just right for me, but the looks of the IS just make me drool!

    My dad had a Hona Prelude a hundred years ago - i wish they still made that! Actually I'd REALLY like to find a "fake" '55 - '57 TBird that is a "modern" car under the shell!

    Susan
  • ambullambull Member Posts: 255
    You should look at the Jetta too. The sporty GLI version just won a comparison test in Car and Driver, beating the TSX and others. The 2.0T version is the most luxurious model.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    The GLI is not in the same league as anything in the entry lux class. It's a sloppy handling, understeering, rolly-polly, corolla look-alike with typical VW engineering: ie bad.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "Igo said the current-generation G35 coupe remains in the lineup for at least a year, while the G35 sedan will be replaced after this model year. Infiniti plans to preview the new G35 sedan in April at the New York Auto Show, he added.

    Besides the success with record sales, Infiniti also has a new, lower average age of its buyers – 46. Igo said this is the lowest of all luxury brands. It’s also 6 years younger than the average age of Infiniti buyers a few years earlier.
    Indeed, the G35 coupe outsold the BMW 3-Series coupe in 2005, Igo said.
    Igo reminded reporters that this year marks the start of a renovation of Infiniti dealerships, which have maintained their look since Infiniti was launched more than 15 years ago. The first fully renovated dealership will be completed this summer in Phoenix, he said.
    He projected Infiniti’s U.S. sales to be about flat in calendar 2006 with the 136,401 sales of calendar 2005. Some of this will be due to the changeout of the 2006 G35 sedan with the new, 2007 model. The G35 sedan is Infiniti’s top-selling car. The G35 coupe is the second best-selling car."

    http://autoshow.msn.com/as/article....rc=autoshow2006

    More G coupe concept pics (including interior) here:

    http://www.nissannews.com/
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    The GLI is not in the same league as anything in the entry lux class. It's a sloppy handling, understeering, rolly-polly, corolla look-alike with typical VW engineering: ie bad

    But seriously blueguy, what do you really think of the GLI?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    :D
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    They know revealing the G35 sedan too soon will spoil sales of the 2006s. Argh.

    The G35 coupe addresses some visual issues I had with the original - namely, the lack of a character line. Wow. Stunning. Seriously stunning.

    Oh April is so far away...
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I was expecting more of the concept they've shown. It looks like a warmed over version (or a "facelift") of the current G35 Coupe to me. I like the new front end, but the rear more or less looks the same to me. Now that interior is a night and day difference to the current car. Even when they tone it down for production it will be way better than current.

    M
  • lmacmillmacmil Member Posts: 1,758
    "Anyone have any other ideas as to what I should look at?"

    Suburu Legacy GT?
  • 150mphclub150mphclub Member Posts: 316
    I had a 2004 Maxima. I wanted a little more luxury. I drove the 2006 Mercedes C350 three times, ordered one and put a $4000 deposit on it in September. It was still not built as of 12/31/05. My neighbor suggested I look at the 2006 VW Passat 3.6L. I laughed at him, but went for a test drive anyway. It was equal to or better than the Mercedes across the board, and $10,000 less to boot. I got my deposit back from Mercedes and bought the VW on 1/5/06. Best decision I ever made.

    Thank you Mercedes for NOT building my car.
  • shankyshanky Member Posts: 36
    Great that you are happy with the Passat 3.6L.

    MB does have delays in building the C350...mine too took about 3 months...but hey, to me it was definitely worth it! I am over 4800 blazing miles now :)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You are just the type of buyer VW wants. One who looked at the higher priced German iron and found it to be lacking for whatever reason, then purchases a VW Passat.

    I just wonder if there are enough of you to make the Passat the volume seller VW wants it to be. Well actually there are two groups you who looked up (MB) and didn't buy. Then there is the group that looked down $$ (Honda/Toyota etc.) and found those brands lacking and deceided to spend more money on a VW.

    Very risky strategy for VW IMO, but I see the new Passat everday now. Many of them.

    M
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Some more pics:

    The more I see this car, the more I like it. The profile is so sleek. I'm beginning to warm up to the tail lights as well.

    http://shows.autospies.com/gallery/shows.asp?manu=&cat=&thisPage=39&galleryId=32- -

    http://shows.autospies.com/gallery/shows.asp?manu=&cat=&thisPage=38&galleryId=32- -

    My guesses:

    G30: 3.0L 260 hp V6 ($31,000 Sedan; $32,500 Coupe)
    G35: 3.7L 330 hp V6 ($34,000 Sedan; $35,500 Coupe)

    And about 2 years later:

    G50: 4.8L 390 hp V8 ($41,000 Sedan; $42,500 Coupe)
  • ambullambull Member Posts: 255
    The GLI is not in the same league as anything in the entry lux class. It's a sloppy handling, understeering, rolly-polly, corolla look-alike with typical VW engineering: ie bad

    But seriously blueguy, what do you really think of the GLI?


    You call that thinking? Not a word of it is true. Tell it to Car and Driver, who consider the GLI tops in its class.
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    Who buys a car based on what C & D thinks?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    C & D is just a magazine. I don't buy based on reviews: I buy based on how the car responds to me. Drive the car for yourself. Unfortunately, I experienced the displeasure of driving a GLI, and it's exactly as I described it in my extensive review posted months ago: great engine, great tranny, lousy handling. They've improved it from the last GLI (with the cruddy 6 speed and lousy VR6), at least. Maybe by Gen VI they can make a GLI that doesn't drive like a pillbug on wheels.
  • ambullambull Member Posts: 255
    I just drove it yesterday - handling is great, very taut, instant torque. A real pleasure. I only quote Car & Driver because they get cars together and compare side-by-side, which is hard for consumers to do. And they're performance-oriented, but want luxury too, like me.

    I would like to read your review though, just for laughs.
  • lmacmillmacmil Member Posts: 1,758
    I guess we can add handling to the list of subjective characteristics. One man's "very taut" is someone else's "pillbug on wheels."
  • ambullambull Member Posts: 255
    Quoting Edmunds' First Drive Test:
    High-speed stability was excellent.

    When the road does turn, the electromechanical steering is tight and sporty, offering excellent feedback and feel. And the suspension, which has thicker antiroll bars, gives the car a hunkered-down planted feeling in the corners. Push too hard and radical understeer rears its ugly head, but the car is easy to drive quickly and much more fun than we thought it would be.


    I didn't push hard enough to induce understeer, but otherwise I agree. Sorry, no mention of "pillbug".
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Well, I just drove the 06 GTI, here are my impressions:

    Nice fit and finish. Decent interior. Power in the GTI with 18s, package 1 and DSG was ample. DSG was just as fun and snappy as ever. Unfortunately, the car sits too high and the suspension causes too much understeer in hard cornering. Nosedive was ample in corners and the car, due to the inherent problems of FWD, couldn't pull out of corners fast enough for me. Overall, a nice car, good power, great tranny but ultimately far too soft for my liking.

    Bummer. I wanted to like it as it was last hope.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I didn't push hard enough to induce understeer, but otherwise I agree. Sorry, no mention of "pillbug".

    That's hilarious. You admittedly drove the car sedately and then come back at me for tearing down the car's high speed performance characteristics?

    As someone else mentioned, one man's taunt car is another's sloppy jallopy. The 06 GLI, for people who drive as if medicated, will feel tight and fun.

    I tend to push my cars far more: the end result then, most cars to me feel undrivable. On my drive of the GTI the salesman was shocked that I didn't like the car. He commented that nobody on his test drives has pushed the car as hard as I or as smoothly (he actually wanted to know if I race in auto-X or semi-professionally). He expected I would have liked it given the way I drove it. Nope. It can't hold a candle to what I drive now or several other cars.

    Think of it this way, if you eat quality steaks and seafood daily, then a stop at Outback seems quaint but not worth enduring on a day to day basis.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,491
    our US spec GTIs get the watered down (rasied) suspension to meet federal bumper height requirements and possibly soften up the ride for American tastes (the general public...not most nuts like us who post here).

    Was the GTI better than the GLI?

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Yeah a bit tighter than the GLI. It's a really tall vehicle for something that's not very big. Like you slide across into a seat, rather than dropping down into one. Odd. Almost SUV-ish. Still, i think I may be too hard on cars v. others, so you might see the GTI as an utter blast. Shrug.

    Of the golf platform cars, I liked the A3 the most. Still, I feel my my affection for Adui/VW will have to stop at the DSG/2.0. I don't think I can ever go back to FWD. Even something as mundane as a freeway on-ramp is a source of great fun in a RWD car. Basically, after driving only my 3 daily for 6 months (not including rentals for business trips), I think I'll never get another FWD car. :(
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Basically, after driving only my 3 daily for 6 months (not including rentals for business trips), I think I'll never get another FWD car. :( "

    Heartily agree.
  • 05fordexplorer05fordexplorer Member Posts: 5
    If you are still looking, look at the Saab 9-3 2.0 T. This thing is a blast to drive. Everything i have read say the reliablity is excellent on all the 05 and 06's and after reading tons of consumer reviews, this is the car we like best. Great Buy.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    If you are still looking, look at the Saab 9-3 2.0 T. This thing is a blast to drive. Everything i have read say the reliablity is excellent on all the 05 and 06's and after reading tons of consumer reviews, this is the car we like best. Great Buy.

    Not a very cost-efficient buy, however... The rapid depreciation on Saabs is horrific. If you plan on buying one, also plan on keeping it a loooong time and driving it until it dies.
  • sosksosk Member Posts: 42
    I came really close to buying an '05 330i (I like the old style 3-series over the new), but for just everyday driving to work & back (7 miles down 1 street), I really would like more interior niceties than BMW offers in the 3-series. At that price range, it seems to me that a car these days should have a CD changer and ANY sort of security system. The G35 coupe is my favorite on the exterior, and I loved how it handled, but the one I drove had a lot of wind noise that I think would drive me crazy after a while. I wonder if it was just that 1 car & maybe I should go back & try again?

    Right now it's between the TSX & IS250 (TL is longer than I want). Fortunately I want to buy in the spring or summer, or even fall, so hopefully the price on the IS will come down a bit. I feel like I should go with the TSX because of its value, but it doesn't excite me the way the IS did. I tend to keep my cars a solid 10 years or so - I don't want to buy one and later feel any buyer's remorse.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Forgo the CDs all together. Get an ipod, copy your songs as 256 kbps MP3s sto it. Boom...no more CD clutter, no more searching for songs and now you have everything available in one click.

    BTW, when the blazes are the entry lux class cars going to get in-dash-flash-ram-equipped music drives? The Lexus LS460 is finally getting one but why is this simple tech taking so long to trickle down? Of the buying market who would use it, the Lexus LS's target group doesn't seem as tech savvy as the entry lux class buyers.
  • calidavecalidave Member Posts: 156
    does the rapid depreciation make it a better car to lease?

    or does that make it worse?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,536
    If the residuals reflect real life, it will make it worse..

    If the leasing company sets the residuals unrealistically high, then it will make it better (lower payment)...

    Saab tends to do the latter.. making their cars relatively cheap to lease, relative to their MSRPs.

    regards,
    kyfdx
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  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "...I really would like more interior niceties than BMW offers in the 3-series. At that price range, it seems to me that a car these days should have a CD changer and ANY sort of security system."

    A CD changer can be had for the 3er fairly inexpensively. That being said, why mess with a changer at all? For my money I'll get an iPod and plug it into the Aux port.

    Regarding the comment about the security system. You do know that all recent BMWs (since 1999 at the very least) have been equipped with a very sophisticated and comprehensive anti-theft/security system, don't you? True, the E90 lacks an audible alarm, but who really cares about that, it’s simply a device that simply pisses everybody off anywhere within earshot and doesn't deter a thief one bit. That being said, for the very reasonable price of $232.05 (from pacificbmw.com) a fully integrated and easily installable alarm can be purchased.

    Personally, I've had one BMW with the standard setup, and one with the full Alarm package, I'll skip the alarm next time around.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • wco81wco81 Member Posts: 594
    More and more car makers are supporting iPod integration.

    They might as well be done with it and just put docks in the things.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Regarding the comment about the security system. You do know that all recent BMWs (since 1999 at the very least) have been equipped with a very sophisticated and comprehensive anti-theft/security system, don't you? True, the E90 lacks an audible alarm, but who really cares about that, it’s simply a device that simply pisses everybody off anywhere within earshot and doesn't deter a thief one bit. That being said, for the very reasonable price of $232.05 (from pacificbmw.com) a fully integrated and easily installable alarm can be purchased.

    To build on what shipo said about the 3-series...

    Their anti-theft includes an ignition imobilizer. Basically, you can't start the car unless you have the little computer chip that's stored in the key.

    If someone's breaking into your car to steal something inside of it, then an audible alarm won't scare them off at all... They'll just grab what they want (CDs, money, bags, etc) and run. (BTW, most people just ignore alarms going off in parking lots... Don't you? :P )

    If they really want to steal the car, then BMW's system is extremely effective in preventing that.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "If they really want to steal the car, then BMW's system is extremely effective in preventing that."

    Absolutely correct. To help further illustrate this point, back in 1999 when I moved from a 1995 Passat GLX to a much more expensive 1999 328i my car insurance went down! "Not that I'm complaining mind you," I told my insurance agent, "but why?"

    "Because our experience with BMWs is that they are very hard to steal and as such, we have very few payouts for that type of loss."

    Thinking about this another way, I've been active on the 3-Series and 5-Series discussions since mid-1998 and in that entire time I can only remember one car that was reported to have been stolen. Apparently it was picked up and put on a flat-bed or into a trailer, and this was a car with the alarm system installed. In the end, if a professional thief wants your car, he/she will get it and no alarm/Lojack/OnStar system will prevent its loss. Period, full stop, the end.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    If I'm remembering the same incident you are, I believe the owner eventually decided that someone at the dealership had illegally gotten a key and either stole the vehicle himself or passed the key on the person who did. Not much a "security system" can do about that.
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