Subaru Crew Cafe

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  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    My office is right across the river from the LNG depot - and right down the street from the VW/Porsche/Audi and what's left of the Subaru port.

    An LNG tanker comes in every few days. My understanding is that tankers run between Boston and Trinidad. Before 9/11 nobody noticed it. Right after, they stopped deliveries for a few weeks. There was a recent article in the Boston Globe as to what happens when one comes in now. The Coast Guard, local police, state police, homeland security, FBI, Secret Service, Park Service, US Navy, FAA, etc. are notified. The tanker is escorted by the Coast Guard. Logan Airport is shut down as it slides by. The Navy/Park Service is watching as it passes near the USS Constitution. The Tobin Bridge, a major route into the city, is closed as it goes under. Helicopters fly low over the entire area as it is docking and the Coast Guard and state police watch over it as it is unloaded. The depot is next door to an electricy generating plant, a large Exxon terminal, and a maze of fuel pipelines and storage tanks. It is treated as a potential terrorist target. Although it sounds like a major undertaking, unless you are inconvenienced by the traffic and airport closings, it is a non-event. Nobody is protesting afaik. In the 20 years or so of these tankers coming into Boston, I only know of one incident and it happened this summer when some Dominican stowaways jumped overboard at the terminal when INS was there to meet them.

    Keeping that in mind, the rumor is that if something happened to the tanker, about 4 square miles would be leveled. Somewhat comforting is that I wouldn't feel a thing and that I and my co-workers would be dust. Also, I know it's not roses and candy at the terminal. I'm sure there have been some problems over the years.

    The mayor of Boston and the city of Everett (where it docks) are trying to get the terminal closed down due to the security issues and potential of a spill. The tankers do come through and dock in a very populated urban center - they pass by and dock within 3/4 of a mile of million dollar condos and multi-family triple deckers. Currently there are proposals to build terminals in Somerset, MA (between Cape Cod and Rhode Island) and Harpswell, ME at a former Navy fuel depot. The annual taxes paid by a terminal would cover almost the entire town budget for Harpswell.

    For me all I notice are the helicopters flying low every so often. I don't live in the area but am near it very often. I look at it as a necessary evil. It's a price we pay for cheap fuel and consistent tax revenue I guess. You become used to it - kind of like the folks who live near missle silos, nuclear plants, airports, and casinos.

    If you want to read more and more, go to boston.com and click on "Boston Globe". Search for lng and it brings up 19 articles for this year. It'll cost you to read them though.

    Sorry for the long winded response.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Eric- I suspect that the NIMBY mentality is an integral part of human nature that won't ever change. For instance, would you let them put a garbage dump in your backyard without protesting? What I find sad is that so often, money talks louder than anything else when it comes to deciding where to put something that no one wants.

    -Frank P.
  • originalbitmanoriginalbitman Member Posts: 920
    I am a NIMBY in this regard for several reasons. Imported natural gas is cheap. That's why the current accelerated rush to build LNG importing facilities. Onshore LNG sites are the cheapest to build and maintain. Offshore sites are more expensive but they do exist. Because onshore sites are located in a port they are also likely to be close to populated areas. The risk of fire or explosion is small. But the consequences are huge. There are currently 4 LNG sites in the US with only 1 (Boston) in operation. To top it off all of the proposed LNG sites are in small communities (like mine) that need income, are unable to study the benefits/risks on their own, and are unlikely to muster a vocal resistance. It's easy to pick on the little guy when you are a multi-billion dollar corporation. Don't put it in my backyard when you can put it in the back forty.

    Thanks for the posts.

    bit
  • rangnerrangner Member Posts: 336
    All businesses have ever cared about is money.

    FWIW there's a smelly paper mill just up the road from where we live and two nuclear plants are within a 25 to 50 mile radius of us.
    One of which is now under contract from the military to produce tritium, I think, for uranium enrichment--there's a terrorist target!

    Bitman--sorry didn't realize what you meant by liquified natural gas--I think I saw an episode of some ABC 9/11 terrorist type show on that. Yeah...on stuff like that there should be some kind of regulations putting it in less populated areas--but then again the extremely populated areas need it the most. FWIW I live in a small town in SE Tennessee. Yeah they pick on us, but just think of the service we're doing for other americans. It's the same with the military--our small town sons and daughters have been fighting and dying for the freedom of us all. Those big-city folks too. I just hope they realize that.

    Frank--I don't know where all this NIMBY stuff comes from. Probably from selfishness and fear. Anyway, my original point being that we as americans are too isolated in our thinking from one another. We give little or no consideration to the well being of the group--only to ourselves. For example, in my office, everyone likes to complain about why we can't get cheap prescription drugs from Canada. What they don't realize is that in the drug companies, workers just like them will lose their jobs if it is allowed.

    I'm not preaching communism--I'm a die hard capitalist, but I think we all need a little patriotism and concern for the well being of america as a whole and not just our subdivision.

    Eric
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Eric- Laudable sentiments but the difficulty comes when you try to put them into practice ;-)

    Hey, any chance you live near Oak Ridge?

    -Frank P.
  • rangnerrangner Member Posts: 336
    Not really, that's more towards Knoxville right? I'm more in the Chattanooga area; we have Watts Bar and Sequoyah nuclear reactors nearby.

    Yeah I know what you mean--it takes a real life changing event to have even the ability to sincerely care about the well being of others and not just yourself. I don't believe that can come from inside man. I believe that can only come from a relationship with God.

    Eric
  • originalbitmanoriginalbitman Member Posts: 920
    Yeah, we already have a nuke plant that was decommisioned because it is very close to a quake fault. But still loaded with fuel after more than a dozen years. And a pulp mill.

    As for natural gas, there is a huge pipeline network in the US. We have NG in the ground not far away that is pumped into that same network. Doesn't need to be close to a city at all.

    bit
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's the first thing they teach you in an MBA program - the goal is profit. It's your duty to shareholders.

    Which leads to the Porsche Cayenne V6, a new much cheaper model that I guess will do the volume for the model. They're still pretty rare so I'm not sure sales were as strong as they thought, and that might explain why this model costs $13 grand less than the S.

    I still need a bucket, but I brought it up for a different reason. MT models in Europe get Porsche Drive-Off, which is basically a Hill Holder Clutch! I guess they copied Subaru, who copied Studebaker.

    Funny how we say Subaru is the Japenese Porsche. Now Porsche is the German Subaru, LOL!

    -juice
  • rangnerrangner Member Posts: 336
    yeah, I work with the Tennesse DOT and the've been building a NG pipline along I-75 for a little while. The've really benn rollin' with it too.

    Eric
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    In my MBA program we had to take 2 ethics courses and the idea of stakeholders was introduced. Yes you have a fiduciary responsibilty to shareholders but many times local stakeholders (local gov, employees, suppliers, et al) do turn out to be more important than the bottom line. Sometimes paying attention to them helps you make shareholders happy in the end as well. As for the LNG site in Boston, I guess no one complained 20 years ago when it started and not too many people complain about the tax revenue and jobs it creates.

    As for the Cayenne, I'm confused. Some articles I've read say it's a resounding success - others point to the introduction of a 6 cyl as proof that's it a failure. The one thing I will say is that I can't believe how many of them I see around Boston. But it's mainly women I see driving them.
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    really bad example about the drug companies. they're reaming us for nothing other than pure shareholder and executive profit. no jobs would be lost if they brought prices down to reasonable levels, they'd just have a few less benzes in the employee lot.

    it's not like heavy industry where the margins can go no lower. there's crazy margin in brand-name drugs. cute if you're a shareholder, insulting if you're just a consumer. buy generic whenever possible of course. :)

    -c
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    But don't forget that for every Viagra or Nexium or Claritin there are a 100 other drugs that tens or hundreds of millions were spent on that either didn't work or weren't approved by the FDA.

    Much research and dollars goes into any drug - some are home runs and others are strike outs. I realize that the government funds some research but not nearly enough to cover the costs of some drugs.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Robert- I'm with Colin on this. Yes the drug companies need to cover their expenses and make a decent profit. However, they could charge a lot less and still do that. Just look at the billions they spend on advertising and lobbying or the all-expense-paid junkets they provide for doctors whom they're trying to get to prescribe the latest "miracle" drug. What really gets me though is that we (the American consumer) get stuck paying for the vast majority of research & development costs of a drug which the rest of the world then gets to buy for a fraction of the cost.

    -Frank P.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Rob: I only took the core business courses, because my Master's was in Information Systems. So no ethics here (LOL).

    Viagra was discovered by accident, wasn't it? How's that blood pressure....WHOA Nelly!

    -juice
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Having worked for a pharmaceutical company at one point in my career, I can see both sides of the argument. From an outsider, it would appear as though the drug company is completely trying to ream the consumer by charing high prices on new drugs. What the outsider doesn't see, as robr2 mentioned above, are the hundreds of drugs that never make it through the development and regulatory pipeline. The total return on a successful drug is not as big as one may perceive considering the huge R&D cost of many other flops it needs to carry. The other point to consider is the relatively short window in which the company gets to pay off it's costs until it's patent expires and generics kick in.

    Every MBA ethics course will cover a pharma case study at some point because it's an industry that walks a fine line between profits and the ability to improve the standard of living for many.

    Ken
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I'm not an expert in the prescription drug market but I do try to look at things from both sides. I realize the drug companies make huge profits from US sales but the rest of the world either can't afford to pay what we pay for prescription drugs or the price is regulated such as in Canada. If the drug companies didn't have our economy paying higher prices, many of these drugs would not be available at all.

    Advertising of prescription drugs is a recent development. It was maybe 7-8 years ago that companies were allowed to market in this manner. Personally I find it wrong. But pull marketing to the consumer builds an awareness of possible relief or even that a condition exists at all. On the flip side, my physician is bothered that patients come in asking for drugs they see advertised. Recently, marketing direct to doctors has really been cut back since it is now considered by both sides as unseemly. But IMHO, if consumer marketing is curtailed you will see more marketing to doctors as there are too many competing drugs available. Bottom line - it is a business that does walk that ethics line very carefully.

    But prescription drugs are not the sole reason for the jump in healthcare costs. Lawsuits and competition among health care providers are also to blame. Here in Boston we have some of the greatest hospitals in the world - if you're going to be sick there's no better place. But they compete against each other for patients, staff, and grants. How many kidney transplant teams does one city need? Why does a hospital install some new piece of equipment when the one at the hospital up the street is 50% utilized? It's all about the money.
  • jfljfl Member Posts: 1,398
    New laws have significantly curtailed junkets provided to doctors by the pharma companies.

    However, I do agree that we in the US subsidize the rest of the world, yet again, this time with drug costs.

    Does the rest of the world subsidize us on gasoline? or is it just taxes in other countries that make their gasoline cost so high?

    Jim
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's taxes. Wholesale gasoline costs are pretty low actually. Even here a lot of it is state and federal taxes.

    -juice
  • jlemolejlemole Member Posts: 345
    Whoa, it's gettin a little heavy in here...So, what is the meaning of life? Anyone???

    Jon
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    42!
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    Yeah, I think more people are home for the holidays. You think this topic is 'active', you should check out the XT thread.

    Happy Festivus!

    -Brian imageimage
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Sorry, but I couldn't resist. :)) Edmund's hosts, please forgive this posting transgression.

    http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5284- - - 481

    And to file your protest:

    http://www.petitiononline.com/STOPCB/petition.html

    Bob
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    42. Good one.
  • jlemolejlemole Member Posts: 345
    And now...time for the annual feats of strength!

    Jon
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Am I the only one who doesn't think his BMW's are that bad? I mean they're different, but not ugly.

    Then again I don't mind the Aztek from the front and the bustle back Seville was a beautiful auto as well.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Bangle's designs don't bother me as much as they do some others here. Some of them I actually like; others, well...

    Speaking of the BMW design revolution, anybody notice that there are other design revolutions occurring? MB, Audi, and of course, Subaru; and all equally as controversial as that occurring at BMW.

    Bob
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    for a while on the road 2 days ago. They're a LOT better in person than in print.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That Z4 concept it just plain cartoonishly ugly. Hideous. Looks like the real car melted...a lot!

    Added my signature to that petition!

    The 5 has silly eyelashes, but at least it didn't get the hunch back from the 6 and 7, which are hideous. The 5's lights still look like a Kia Rio, not exactly what you want to be compared with. Best I can say is it's not TOO ugly.

    The 6's front lights look like they're upside down. It's got a wide B-pillar, too, while Mercedes manages a pillarless, cleaner design.

    The 7 is wrong all over. Again the headlights look like they were put on upside down. Flip them and you have Jaguar class. More eyelashes there too. Worst hunch back I've ever seen. The trunk looks pasted on, an afterthought.

    The Z4 I can tolerate, though the front looks droopy, sad. The X3 is kind of weird looking.

    There is not a single handsome BMW left, IMO. Not one. Compare that to Jaguar or Audi, every car of theirs is handsome.

    Then again, I hate the Enzo and the Mercedes SLR also, both are cartoonish. Both seem to borrow the ugliest styling cue from current F1 cars - that lifted nose.

    It's a dark day in design.

    -juice
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    Eggplant.

    Too much bloats.

    Will NOT survive the streets of New York.

    -Dave
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    A Festivus for the rest of us!

    And now, we will begin with the airing of grievances.

    Love that episode.

    Ken
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    baa humbug...
  • originalbitmanoriginalbitman Member Posts: 920
    Thanks for the Boston LNG info. I appreciate it.

    Happy holidaus!

    bit
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    No chat, but go out and get something for your Subie! ;-)

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    nabisco, Jon [from CT] posted:

    The "fact of the matter" is that Subaru has decided NOT to "gain market share." According to http://www.fhi.co.jp/fina/english/vision/index.html Subaru seeks to more-or-less maintain its current world-wide market share (about 1%). It intends to increase profit by transforming Subaru into a "premium" brand and adopting new production systems to reduce cost. According to p.9 of http://www.fhi.co.jp/fina/english/f...fhi-vi-2002.pdf,

    * Emphasis the value of 1% global market share
    * Implement its unique marketing as 1% market share
    * Prepare to compete in QUALITY, not in unit volume

    In other words, Subaru intends to increase its per-unit profit margin rather than increase its market share as measured in unit sales. They appear to be embracing the Porsche business model, which has enabled Porsche to achieve the highest per-unit profit margin in the auto business, even though its market share has remained relatively stable (and very small).


    If that 2nd link doesn't work here (I couldn't get it to open?), it works fine over at nabisco. There's a lot of interesting stuff on it.

    Bob
  • rangnerrangner Member Posts: 336
    Well if that's true, I don't suppose I can remain a Subaru customer for long. I'm just waiting to see where they price the new Leg/OB, like everybody else.

    Eric
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    To say that is easy, to do it nearly impossible.

    Honestly, I look at real world prices, with WRX hitting all time low prices around $21,500, and Outbacks squeezing in at just under $20 grand, and I ask, how exactly will they do that? They've been going in the opposite direction, actually.

    My Forester was $19,200. Today you can get an X for a few hundred less. Once you factor inflation, Subaru is actually getting substantially less for each Forester it builds.

    The Legacy looks nice, sure, but then so does the Mazda 6, and those already rely on incentives. The market it way, way too competitive to just do that without *substantial* upgrades to the products.

    Stop the skid before you talk big like that.

    -juice
  • twrxtwrx Member Posts: 647
    I paid $21,000 for my '98 Forester L and it did not have CD, power mirrors, cruise, and keyless standard like an X has.

    I have a friend in the Boston area who is looking at a base Outback adverized at $20,900. In '96 I looked at an Outback and the local dealer wanted $22,000. Now the base model has an all weather package, power seat, cd, and keyless.

    And how about the turbo Baja for the same price as last year's Baja?

    TWRX
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    This is a comparison of my purchases of my '96 OBW in Feb. '96 and my '03 OBW in Aug. '02.

    I bought both at the same dealer in Southeastern PA.

    The '96 cost $22,481 (invoice) There was a $750 rebate, so actual cost was $21,731. Options were Automatic, CWP (std on '03), 6 disk CD changer (single CD std on '03), Keyless entry (std on '03), map light (std on '03), tweeter kit and trailer hitch.

    The '03 cost $22,606 (invoice + $125 advertising fee). Options were Automatic, Security system, Auto dimming mirror, cargo net and tweeter kit.

    The difference in options (trailer hitch and 6 CD versus security system, auto mirror and cargo net) basically are a wash in price.

    So, the '03 cost me $125 more ($875 including rebate) for 7 model years newer. The '03 also includes a rear LSD, power seat, 16" wheels/tires, variable intermittent wipers, outside temp guage, plood and more.

    DaveM
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    There you go, the market is just that much more competitive today. And it's not getting any softer, the RAV4 now gets a 2.4l engine and VSC, even a Navi option. The Tracker will be replaced by the Equinox, a bigger Vue with much nicer styling. The Vue itself gets Honda's 3.5l V6. Escape will get a hybrid option. By 2006 all Hondas (Element and CR-V) will have side curtain air bags.

    So the Forester has its work cut out for it. You think Subaru will have a hybrid powertrain and Navi + VDC ready in 2 years?

    Maybe they refer to new models only, i.e. starting with the 2005 Legacy. You can bet I'll be taking a close look at every detail to see if/where costs were cut.

    Bob - did you get a chance to check out the Stow-and-go seats in the DCX vans?

    -juice
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    but since the Soob discussion in question is a humorless pit, I'll get in trouble.

    teh FX-T is fast4r!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It is, and I don't think that needs to be addressed at all, not one bit.

    But being upscale is different than being fast. I think a Premium Package 5 speed is just a start. It's time for VDC to make it to other models, the XT being the best cadidate.

    Air bags already protect the heads of the front passengers, so VDC should come first.

    Look at the Passat. VW is probably the best attempt so far by a mainstream make to move upscale. They're not quite there, but let's call them mid-level at least. They had side curtain air bags standard how many years ago? And stability control for a couple of years too.

    -juice
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    plus even Golf had full nighttime illumination of all switch gear 3 years ago. In 2004 we finally get window switches that light up. Now I do understand the economies of scale are quite different, but still.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think the Legacy looks like a leap forward, towards the top of its mainstream class. I'm not (yet) convinced that it's a leap up into the premium segment. We'll see.

    -juice
  • jfljfl Member Posts: 1,398
    Subaru just needs to be careful that they don't chase away their loyal followers in their desire to move upmarket.

    Jim
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Actually, my bigger fear is that they'll set prices too high, and then rely on huge discounts to sell enough volume.

    The VDC was a good example, $33k MSRPs scared people away. That hurt H6 sales, the media could not get over that price, despite LL Beans in lots selling for $27k or so.

    Rebates kill resale value. I say set market-correct prices and let AWD be the selling factor. The Legacy GT should go up against the Acura TSX, at about $28k.

    The 7 seater should battle the Highlander and the Pilot, not the MDX and RX330. Keep base prices around $30k, top off at $35k. People will pass out if they see $40k stickers.

    I'll take one with cloth seats, H6, 5 speed Sportshift, and one single luxury feature - a moonroof, for under $30k street price. Pretty please.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Saab has a funny issue on their hands, I just checked out some current prices.

    The 9-3 Linear sells for as little as $22,668, actual street price today. The 9-2x starts at $25k retail? They'll have to sell them at invoice right off the bat and even then prices will overlap, and that's the 165hp base model, compared to its turbocharged big brother.

    Makes no sense. Saab set 9-2x prices way too high, it'll be a mess, watch. The guy that pays list to get the first one will have about 50% resale value after about 2 years.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    That feature is on the '05 vans, which will be introduced at Detroit.

    Bob
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    The most sensible move for Subaru is to just edge out the competition in terms of features with the Legacy. That's what made the Passat so successful -- it's still a family sedan but it has enough upscale features that set it slightly aside from the typical Honda and Toyota. Those features include the nice interior lights, up/down auto windows and upscale trim. From a mechanical standpoint, VW offered AWD, bigger engine choices and solid handling.

    No need to raise the bar and prices into the sky.

    Ken
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    from the MTM discussion, and only kinda related at that: (hehe)

    I drove a Golf TDI Saturday. interesting vehicle. very useable power, I thought. I'd buy one except for the chicken-and-egg problem regarding the rarity of diesel fuel.

    -c
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