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Comments
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6909&sid=17- 5&n=156
Bob
dw has a honey mustard in her home business that is good with chicken...
-Brian
seriously.
~colin
Anchor Porter (to which Guinness runs a close second, at least to my taste buds)
Anchor Steam Beer (bottled--great, draft--even better)
Anchor Wheat Beer
Rock Bottom Restaurant & Brewery Long Board Brown Ale
Sports City Cafe & Brewery Oatmeal Stout
OK, _now_ we can close the beer thread. ;-)
I'm speaking as a diehard Subie guy. I am one who values the benefits of AWD. I've owned many Hondas, and we now have 2 Subies, and I would buy the Legacy over the Accord (because of the AWD); but that's just me.
FWIW, there is an all-new Legacy due out in late May. There has been a huge leap forward in terms of comfort, refinement, etc. It will be much more competitive with the Accord. You may want to wait until that car debuts.
Bob
However, Nissan had better dot their Is and cross their Ts, the Resonance Issue doesn't seem to go away. Lots of sales, sure, but what if those customers are not happy and leave the brand? Doesn't do much good for Nissan.
-juice
www.seewhathappens.com
AMCI does comparisons like this all the time. Mitsu paid for this so I'm sure it was set up to win, but check out the Accord's handling - worst of the three.
If you want FWD, I say skip all of those and check out the Mazda6, it's sportier than any of those. So it the Altima, and it even gets interior improvements this year.
In CO you'll wish you had the Legacy though.
-juice
Both named Ken
Both of Japanese extraction (IIRC)
Both own '98 Forester S (mine's white, how about yours?)
Both work in IT (IIRC)
Both strongly considering the new Legacy GT wagon
Now I find you have a daughter named Erina - my girlfriend's name is Erin.
Okay, I'm 31, 5'6" and a Leo and my favorite activities are tennis and martial arts. If any of that stuff matches up, I'm calling you my unofficial twin.
RE: Beer
If any of you have access to Bert Grant's Perfect Porter, then name is not just hubris.
LOL
-juice
~c
Try this, find an on-ramp with a tight radius turn. Maybe even an uphill decreasing radius on-ramp where you have to accelerate up to speed quickly.
Hit the gas in the Accord and watch the front end twitch, the steering wheel pull a little to one side, that's torque steer.
Try the same turn in the Subie, if you can. Even full throttle it never loses its composure. Even in a skid situation, stay on the gas and AWD will pull you out of the skid.
Not that I recommend you go that far on a test drive, you'll freak out the salesman!
If it's wet, find a steep hill to climb and see if the tires spin. Some Accords have traction control so see how it behaves to help get traction.
Then try the Subie, no drama.
The only extra maintenance is the gear oil in the rear diffy, it's like an oil change, drain and refill, every 60k miles, 30k in extreme use. Not a big factor at all, and not hard to do yourself.
-juice
And in rain, the recovery when hydroplaning is fantastic. Nothing beats AWD all-year round.
-mike
-juice
~c
If general safety, AWD, and all-weather prowess is important, I'd go with the Legacy (note that some versions of the Accord do offer side curtain bags, which the Legacy won't get until the 05 model goes on sale in May/June).
Accord has a nice 4 cylinder engine, very smooth and refined. Legacy H4 engine has a unique character all its own. Accord has a 5-spd auto vs. 4-spd in the Legacy. Accord will get better gas mileage.
The 04 Legacy is a great car, and the 35th anniv. edition is a tremendous bargain. However, the 05 Legacy is going to make the 04 look like a real frumpy car. I would not buy an 04 at this point.
Craig
I'm pondering crossing over to the Dark Side. Kids seem to have more friends who need carting around than we ever did and seven seats are looking like a good idea. Roll on Subaru 7 seater!
The choices for 7 seaters get interesting. I can't see myself in a van and the full on 4WD thing is definitely not my scene. If Peugeot still made the 504 that would have merit. Things like the Zafira are too pokey in the rear seats to be even vaguely feasible given that Tamsin already has improbably long legs.
That takes me to the Toyota Kluger (Highlander to you folk) that has had some very good write ups, is not excessively pricey by the time I factor in a fleet discount and has a decent mid range spec with leather, air, cruise control and an option pack that gives more airbags than people and traction and stability control.
What's the downside, excluding the fact that Highlander users (at least in the Town Hall) are less interesting than Subaru owners?
Cheers
Graham
Bob
I totally agree with your conclusions on the Legacy's handling, it's what drew me to my own car. Acceleration has been less than impressive, though.
Even if the new model only goes up in price by $500, that's $2 grand more than a 2004 costs now. That may or may not be worth it to you.
HL feels big and drives big, IMO. I liked it but my wife didn't. Here in the US the prices go crazy if you load them up, too. I haven't seen the 3rd row but I heard it's tight.
Pilot drives even bigger, but it's roomier. I think since the HL is not significantly sportier, I'd probably go with the Pilot myself.
Mind you neither vehicle was fun so I'd only get it if I had to. Even then I'd seriously consider a minivan. IMO both the Sienna and Odyssey are better than either of those SUVs.
As for the AWD systems, the HL's will be more familiar, full-time viscous coupling, plus VSC optional. I'd pick that over VTM-4 any day.
-juice
The Honda Pilot is sold as the MDX down under and runs about AUD75,000 on the reoad. A similarly specced Toyota Kluger runs out at about AUD45,000 on the road and an Outback Limited at about $45,000 Go figure? The Kluger looks like a lot of car for the money. To convery to U currrncy multiply those figures by 75%.
I guess the pricing straegey must be different in the US where I think Subaru is cheaper than either.
Cheers
Graham
Who knows the reasons for the pricing strategy. The Highlander/Kluger here starts at US$24,620 and can reach over $40,000.
Yep, the Oz-MDX is the same as our Acura MDX. While mechanically a twin to the Pilot, it's much more highly contented, and much more expensive. Interestingly the MDX is a 7-passenger model, whereas the Pilot is a 8-passenger model, with 3-across 3rd row seating, and a 60/40 3rd-row split seat.
Bob
-Brian
-juice
I have no doubt in my mind that people who think and act like this are wired differently from the rest of the human race.
To label them animals is an insult to the real animal world, even animals I believe have more respect for each other than these subhumans have for their fellow man.
Cheers Pat.
I'm willing to bet you my friend, that in 10 years time hybrids will hold their own in sales, and won't be considered just another automotive contraption.
no problem, I'll put $20 on it. who is going to hold our money for 10 years though? :-D
how is a hybrid supposed to add value? currently it is a gimmick to provide fuel economy, which as I've already mentioned many purchasers do not seem overly concerned about. one could easily argue (again, CRX HF example) that the same mileage could be had with a light car with only a gasoline engine.
but that's just the tip of the iceberg.
-- hybrids will have higher cost of ownership. those batteries, charging systems and electric engines will have simple maintenance alright; pull the defective component and replace. sounds cheap! but at the least you have to admit that if a car has both a gas engine (no matter the size) and an electric one, it simply cannot be cheaper to maintain than one with only a gas engine. it's not replacement stuff, it's additional stuff.
-- show me a hybrid that's more fun to drive than an equivalent gas powered car (civic for example?). I'll be waiting for the hybrid corvette, WRX or even Focus that comes even close to their gas-only counterpart.
-- please don't assume that gas engine development stagnates while hybrids improve. look at what gas engines have done in 10 years, and the 10 before that.
~c
Don't be so quick to shoot down this new technology. You're only looking at the first wave of hybrids, and you're making assumptions based on what you see, and not on the potential of what *could* be. The automakers obviously see a huge future here. I agree with them 100%.
As to the fun-to-drive hybrid sports cars, they're coming too. Yeah it would be great to have CRX HF simplicity again, but I don't see that happening.
Bob
Colin, you asked for a fun hybrid. Try the Toyota Volta on for size, or the upcoming Acura TL hybrid. The Toyota will do 0-62 in less than 4 seconds with hybrid technology, and average 40 miles to the gallon. The TL will offer even more performance than the current V6 setup, which is saying a lot, while still offering reasonable fuel economy and all the expected luxury.
An interesting partner just entered this market, the EPA. EPA engineers announced they created and installed hybrid technology into a Ford Expedition, improving fuel economy 90 percent. This particular technology is interesting because it eliminates the transmission and transfer case, replacing them with hydraulic hybrid technology. Talk about reducing maintenance items! I love it.
As for overall and long-term maintenance, no one really knows what the additional technology will cost to upkeep. It's just too new. Even the battery life is a big question mark right now.
One thing is for certain, though. There's demand for hybrids. Toyota can't produce enough of the new Prius to meet demand. When the next generation of hybrids hit, those that offer high performance and good economy, I predict that demand will soar. I'll be in line.
Hybrids will not take over the market. There will always be doubters such as Colin; but I think in 10 years, 10 percent of the market is a very real possibility. 10 percent of the market is nothing to scoff at.
Bob
http://www.subaru-msm.com/global/feature/letterSWRT/33.html
Bob
right Bob, but that's actually kind of my point with regard to Subaru. they're tiny... so tiny that they can only hope to be small.
is investing hybrid technology going to meaningfully pay off for Subaru? I think not. when the market demands it they should piggyback from GM, who has much more capital to invest in marginal or rapidly-changing technologies.
you were just making a lot of noise about Subaru being 'doomed' or some such if they didn't do something big about hybrids right now, and I simply disagree.
tyguy, the Volta sounds interesting but one would wonder about those claims, plus there are the usual hybrid caveats of cruising range. regarding the EPA's Expedition, it sounds like a proof of concept. I wonder how much it cost to construct and would cost as a production unit.
~c
Witness the the B9SC concept. They just need to put that technology into production.
If they don't get on the hybrid wagon, Subaru will look like they can't hack it with state-of-the-art technology—especially to their Outback/Forester audience, who by and large are eco-conscious customers—and who for the most part , aren't interested in turbo technology.
Just because Subaru is currently small, doesn't mean they will always be small (or at least as small as they are now). Honda and Toyota were once small too. Now look at them.
Bob
http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/news,view.spy?artid=21889&- ;amp- ;pg=1
http://www.autoweek.com/specials/2004_geneva/volta/pages/
Great question regarding the EPA's achievement. They haven't released any kind of expected construction costs. The motor is a simple and small diesel unit, so that should be relatively inexpensive to produce. The elimination of the transmission and transfer case will obviously result in huge reductions in manufacturing costs there. The big question is how much the hydraulic hybrid unit will run. Who knows? Driving an Expedition and averaging around 30 mpg certainly is appealing, though.
Alright, I have a nursery to prepare. Our first little one is expected this week and there are last-minute items I have to finish. Whew! I'm already tired and she's not here yet. Is that a bad sign? :-)
Happy Saturday!
~c
Ignition is on the left of the steering wheel, why? Seats are comfy. HID's are very nice (was first time driving a vehicle with 'em). Ride comfort was ok on our crummy city streets, felt pretty tight like a sports car, but did seem a bit 'giving' on the turns. Brakes are great. Steering felt ok, I thought it might be a bit too boosted. Tiptronic is nice, but leaving it in regular auto mode seemed just fine, it downshifted when I thought it should. The GO pedal does it's job, the thing does move when asked. But it does feel heavy, I'm sure the 8cyl (or even the T U R B O, neither of which were what I tested) make up for the weight. Lots of gadgets and stuff, easy to just sit there and play with all the features.
Was nice to be able to drive it. Felt strange driving it around town (I'm driving a gosh darn Porsche in a town that made AMC's) as I'm sure it's the ONLY Cayenne in town, let alone probably the ONLY Porsche in town.
-Brian