Has anyone heard of something like this happening? We own a 2004 Acura MDX which we park outside. 3 weeks ago, Texas had torrential rain but the car was never driven in high water once. Now the driver and passenger carpets are soaked through to the mats and the dealership cannot find the source of the leak. So they want us to pay!! There was no indication the window, sunroof or doors were left open, nor was there any sign of water in the engine or by the sides of the car where water could have come in. We were told by the dealership to contact our insurance company (which we did) because if they cannot find the source of the leak it is obviously not a factory defect so therefore not their problem. So I guess they called us liars. They said they would be the first to pay if the insurance company could find where the water came from. Nice guys. Luckily there are 2 dealerships where we live. The car is now at the second dealership where they are trying to diagnose the leak. We've been without the car nearly 3 weeks with no end is sight. Now the Acura rep want to pull the entire interior from end to end to find the leak. 30 plus man hours just to do that job. Any ideas or has anyone else had a similar problem?
Has anyone heard of something like this happening? We own a 2004 Acura MDX which we park outside. 3 weeks ago, Texas had torrential rain but the car was never driven in high water once. Now the driver and passenger carpets are soaked through to the mats and the dealership cannot find the source of the leak. So they want us to pay!! There was no indication the window, sunroof or doors were left open, nor was there any sign of water in the engine or by the sides of the car where water could have come in. We were told by the dealership to contact our insurance company (which we did) because if they cannot find the source of the leak it is obviously not a factory defect so therefore not their problem. So I guess they called us liars. They said they would be the first to pay if the insurance company could find where the water came from. Nice guys. Luckily there are 2 dealerships where we live. The car is now at the second dealership where they are trying to diagnose the leak. We've been without the car nearly 3 weeks with no end is sight. Now the Acura rep want to pull the entire interior from end to end to find the leak. 30 plus man hours just to do that job. Any ideas or has anyone else had a similar problem? WE love the car. We just want it back all in one piece and dry.
Yes. I do park on a small hill and the car was facing downhill. I originally thought the rushing water hit the tire and the mudflap but I measured the angle of the hill this weekend which was less than 10 degrees so now I'm not sure about that theory. However, just this morning the dealership found water behind the firewall all the way up the black foam which separates the car from the engine compartment. So they aren't sure themselves.
My parents and I have had leaks in two different vehicles related to the sun roof. There is something related to the drainage (tubes, etc) that either got blocked or were too close to other things (car body, etc). I do not know if this could be related to what you have experienced, but we also searched a long time for the cause of water in both cars until we discovered this - both cars were dry afterwards.
Wow. I came to this site looking for this exact info. I just bout my 2001 MDX the end of September. It had 50,000 miles. Two weeks later, i began noticing that when the car was going at about 25 mph it would start hesitating and kicking back. I took the vehicle to the dealorship( the vehicle is a certified acura and I purchased the extended warranty. They said it was the EGR valve and replaced it. I noticed immediately that the problem was not fixed. I also needed a new rt front strut. So when the strut came in I took vehicle back in. They said I needed a new transmission. This was replaced 1 month ago. Now guess what! The new transmission is doing the exact same thing except WORSE. The car will idle way high then drop, and it it now stuttering and jerking during 30 mph and then again at about 40 mph. I am calling dealorship tomorrow. This is very frustrating. I am going to be looking into the Florida lemon law regarding this. Anyone with insight please respond
There have been sporadic transmission problem/failure reports but I think almost everytime Acura repaired them under warranty without fuss. Hopefully they can find out what's wrong and repair it. If you they will fix it no charge I think you have to give them a chance. Just make sure you negotiate for an equitable loaner, not a compact.
There is unfortunately no fix for it. I have written letter to headquarter and talked to them on phone as well. There answer is that "we are fully aware of this problem. Our engineers are working on this issue and once we find the solution we will inform you by mail". They also said that " We know very well that this is not a problem in each and every MDX. Why does it happen in some MDX and not others, we don't know but we are working on it".
Bottom line, you happen to be the unfortunate one having to deal with this issue, for which there is no fix so far. People have come up with so many different things to accomodate this issue like keeping the radio volume up, windows down or up or simply ignore it. People who are writing that they don't have this issue are just the lucky ones, does not mean that this issue does not exist. My request to them is that please do not reply by saying that I don't have this problem. That just irritates people like us, who are dealing with this issue, a lot.
How can one MDX slosh while another won't. The very suggestion of that is absurd. These vehicles are built exactly alike. You give me a 3/4 full gas tank and I know I will hear a slosh in every MDX.
Just picked up a 2005 Black MDX last week with Nav. I had read about the sloshing gas tank, but I also read that Acura redesigned the gas tank, it's 1 gallon larger and has some kind of different insulation. Anyway, I've driven about 225 miles, and haven't heard a thing. Very quiet.
I reciently bought a 2005 MDX and we love the vehicle but last weekend the heater would not work. We where driving the car the day before and the heater worked fine. Then the next day it just doesn't heat up. The fan blows fine but it never gets hot. We take it to the dealer and he confirms it, after a day of checking in to the problem they tell us they don't know what the issue is. Then the next morning they tell us it works ok now, after sitting in the shop overnight. They said something must have been frozen... are they kidding, this is the first really cold day we have had, am i to expect the heater not to work when it gets cold. The dealer was useless. Anyone else have any heater issues???
Mine is 2004 MDX, and once in a while, I hear that sloshing when backing up from my garage. I haven't heard it while driving forward. Maybe, I wasn't paying attention. But definitely when backing up.
I have experienced the exact same phenomenon with the heater on my 05 MDX. It seems to do this intermittently, and when it has happened, I was able to get the heat to come on by tinkering with the A/C controls, turning temp all the way up to max, etc. After a minute or two, it would heat up. I am relieved in a way that this problem is not specific to just my MDX. I suppose if the problem persists, I will have to take it to my dealer, although I suspect that this would likely result in the same explanation (or lack thereof) your dealer gave. Please post any progress you make in resolving this issue and I will do the same. Thanks.
I am very upset that there is no solution to the gas tank sloshing. When looking for a SUV I chose the Acura MDX over the BMW...what a mistake. I will never by another Acura vechicle again....and I'm telling anyone and everyone who ask me not to buy an Acura Vechicle! I can't believe I've paid 40+K and I have to listen a sloshing noise!!!! The worse is that when I fill my tank up it not only sloshes but it has a LOUD BANGING noise from the rear of the vechile to the front sounds like there's a rod moving under my vechile. My son has commented that he can acturally feel it move through the floor while sitting in the back seat. When I took it into the dealership...they stated that nothing could be done, and it was not a big deal. My question, how safe can it possible be with all this gas sloshing...better yet in my vechile BANGING back in forth? If something ever happens to me or my family... it has been noted that my Lawyer will take action against ACURA...
I'm sorry to sound so negative but it really stinks that my hard earn money is being spent on a vechile that I don't even like driving or better yet I'm afraid of driving because it might blow at anytime.
If there was a way to let everyone know this problem before they even considered buying an Acura MDX...I would be the first person to post it.
It is amazing there is such a wide variety of complaints. I have never had an issue with sloshing in my '02. I can't hear it if I try?
Regarding the banging? There was a TSB issued for '01 and '02's about suspension bolt torque settings and it supposedly fixed some noises similar to what you mention.
A loud banging? That is strange, it is the first report of something like that. What does the dealer say about that problem?
Maybe there is something else going on. Perhaps you should seek advice on these forums (and others we cannot mention) rather than threatening to take legal action against Acura. Sorry to read about your woes, but your time would be better spent finding a solution.
Response to this comment:"Maybe there is something else going on. Perhaps you should seek advice on these forums (and others we cannot mention) rather than threatening to take legal action against Acura. Sorry to read about your woes, but your time would be better spent finding a solution."
I'm not sure how to take this, but since you don't have the problem with the gas sloshing or the banging noise then you don't understand what I'm going through... and yes I have mentioned the banging noise to the dealer.. as well as had them test drive it with me to hear it and they said it has to do with the position of the tank. When the gas tank is full the noise is louder... so does that mean I have to drive around with a 1/2 tank of gas just to make the noise go away. Well, as I stated and so have others, spending 40K+ on a vechile I should not be hearing any noises... and to top it off the dealership is telling me there's nothing they can do about it and not to worry. Let me ask your personal opinion, if your loved one was driving this vechicle and a malfunction happens because of the sloshing and banging of the gas in the tank would you or would you not want someone "legally" to know that you did complain about it and that no one had an answer nor cared to find an answer. I find it hard to believe that this problem has been happening since 2001 and there has not been a fix in place as of 2005. So if I sound a little bent out of shape it's because I'm the one driving the SUV with the noise... obviously your not.
I guess you should be grateful that you're one of the lucky ones, driving a Acura MDX without the sloshing problems... But thanks anyway for your advice...I will continue to complain until my vechile is fixed.
It's a shame they can be so arrogant about a vehicle that costs around $40,000. I would complain to a higher authority like the regional service manager and if that didn't help I would go as high up in the authority chain as I could. "There's nothing we can do" simply doesn't cut it. You shouldn't have to settle for that. You can begin the process by calling Acura client services at 1-800-382-2238 between 9am and 8pm EST. That's the number to call after you get no satisfaction with the dealer.
"I don't even like driving or better yet I'm afraid of driving because it might blow at anytime."
Please. I think you are overreacting. Unless you have some enemies with mob ties, your vehicle will not blow up at anytime. It's just some gas sloshing around in the tank. Many of the vehicles that I have owned have done this, including my 99 BMW 5 Series. Thankfully, the symptom has not yet presented itself in my 05 MDX, perhaps due to the increased noise deadening material added for the 2005 model year. I agree with you that it can be annoying, especially for an upscale vehicle like the MDX. But I have to say that, unlike you, I am completely satisfied with this vehicle.
Your right I'm over reacting... so how about we trade vechile and you let me know how safe you feel driving a vechile with GAS sloshing around, wait let me re word that "BANGING" around while your driving.
My husband and I have been calling client services for 4 weeks now. No one has even bothered to returned either one of our calls. It bugs me that they were all over us to BUY this vechile, but now that we have a problem they don't even have the decency to call us back.
Thank you for understanding how upset we are about this situation.
I agree with you, unless they have that annoying noise, they really don't understand. All I want is my gas tank to be fixed. It sounds like you took the same actions I did, so what do we do now?
The banging doesn't sound normal. If they say there is a problem with the position of the tank...but not another one on the lot, they should fix it. Ask them to reproduce the banging in another MDX. "Wrong" position sounds like a fixable problem...maybe they will have to replace the whole fuel delivery system...that isn't your problem...they should be able to tear your car down to the frame and put it back together without you knowing.
I think you have something with the banging. Go to another dealer...if they cannot fix it, perhaps pursue the lemon law or getting a replacement car.
Like You, I have recently had problems with my transmission. However, because it is the holidays I can not get the matter resolved. My 2001 Acura MDX has 77,000 and I am experiencing problems. I have kept my 67,000 scheduled maintenance and they did not detect any problems or failed to disclose of them. I know that Acura is acutely aware of its defective truck that it is selling in these United States. I am instersting in hearing from anyone with a plausible solution and/or explanation and help in repair expenses.
Patience (easy for me to say...in your shoes I would be just as upset). It doesn't have to get resolved immediately. Did you get your car back? If not, tell them you want to lobby the manufacturer for the costs and ask for your car back? Or keep the loaner. Maybe it has to wait until next week to get attention...work out a deal for the meantime, I bet they will negotiate. If they don't plan to pay for it, you have a long road ahead of you anyway, so get prepared to wait. If they do plan on honoring the warranty, it should not be a problem next week or tomorrow.
I agree that if something happens to the car b/c of the sloshing gas we should take legal action against Acura. This forum discussion is a very good proof that we have tried everything. As far as i know there is no fix for this and there will not be any in the future....thanks to all of those who keep coming on the forum just to say that they have never heard this and they don't have a clue about it. They are just like the dealers who initially behaved that they are totally unaware of this problem and i am the first crazy customer saying this. Later they admitted that yes this is a problem but .... no fix, sorry.
This is an unusual problem. Few people report it (less than 2% of the Consumers Reports survey respondents cited the issue), but those that do seem extremely bothered by it.
So I wonder, is the sound akin to a fingernails on the chalkboard sound (i.e. some people can't stand the sound, but others are not bothered at all)?
The human body is good at recognizing which inputs are important and filters out the rest. Millions of inputs hit us simultaneously, and the brain decides which are worth pondering. For me, I can't stand a hissing noise at a frequency around 2k Hz, that can come through a stereo system. If there is noise at the frequency (a signal clipping type noise) it drives me up a wall.
I wonder if this sloshing is similar? Most people who say they don't have the problem just aren't bothered by it and tune it out?
Soon I'll be driving MDX and Pilot, so I'll be listening for this.
I have an 04 MDX Touring that I got in August of 2004. It has been back to the dealer 3x for a "creaking" window. Each time they lube it or something which takes care of it for 4-6 weeks and then it comes back. Like it did again this weekend. If you think the gas sloshing around (yes - I have that sound also) is annoying you should try this one on for size as it is inches away from your ear. Does anyone else have this window problem and know of a more permanent fix? I'm almost ready to ditch this noisy thing and take the huge depreciation hit just to get some peace and quiet on the road.
Please note that I have spared all of you the other 4 initial defects / problems I've had with this thing in the first 4 months of its life. And it only has 2900 miles on it! Other than the initial quality problems this SUV is great (if you can believe that.)
I am happy to announce that I took my vehicle back to the dealer who has been servicing my vehicle and the problem has been resolved with no out of pocket cost to me. ACURA DOES STAND BY ITS PRODUCT AND THAT IS VERY REASSURING.
Bought my 2005 MDX w. nav and dvd on 12-29 and on 1-1 the heat and navi stopped working, dealer knows of the problem on the heat but nnot sure what is the problem w/ navigation, any others have this problem, i hope this acura is not going to be a problem, i have had 4 acuras and no problems on the previous three now w/ only 100 miles my heat and navigation has failed
Your right it's like the fingernail on the blackboard... very annoying.
Just a word of advise, I test drove the the Pilot, there was no power... felt like it was hesitating. When I test drove the MDX I didn't hear the noise, I found out the reason was that there's only about 5 gallons of gas in the tank... not enough to hear the sloshing. The noise gets louder with more gas in the tank.
Last month Check engine light came out and we take our MDX to near Acura dealer. We were told that gas tank cap was not tightening very well. Last Monday it's happen again. I check manual - recommended wait for 2-3 days after tightened gas cap. I wait for 6 - light is on. Any recommendation?
just got my MDX back today, The good is that the dealer picked up and dropped back off the car and even filled the tank. The bad, they replaced the NAVI Control Unit at 325 miles. The heat also now works. I will have to drive it tomorrow to see if it actual now works. The bad, the dealer dindt put the car back i have three pieces of large plastic sitting in the back seat. I called dealer and service was walking out the door for the night and told me talk to the guy that sold me the car. This got me a bit irritated, I then called back and spoke to the general manager and told him the problem. He was embarrased about what service said and promised to take care of it tomorrow, will see what happens.
My question now is how do you know if they put a new control unit or a remanufactured unit in my MDX. I dont want remanf parts in a $45,000 car with only 325 miles. also is the 2005 control unit different than the 2004 and prior years?
I too have had problems with the heat not working in my new 2005 mdx. Only happened once and seems ok since. See earlier posts. But the dealer did not fix anything with the heater. It just started working after sitting in the dealers garage overnight. Did your dealer actually put a new part in or fix something on you mdx? If so, can you share what it was?
Thanks for the pointer, I just test drove an MDX this weekend and did not hear any gas sloshing noises, but the tank was so empty the light was on. I even asked the dealer about the empty tank and he told me not to worry about it. Anyone else thinks it is a "conspiracy" to conceal this problem from buyers? I am going to test drive it again next weekend and will demand a full tank of gas
Unfortunately, there is not much choice for a decent luxury SUV in the mid-thirties range, for me it is either MDX or FX, but MDX offers more utility for the money. Anyone else went through the selection process, any other car to consider?
I was amazed to read your test drive with little gas in the vehicle. This was exactly what the salesman did to me from a dealership in Penna. I told him my main concern was the gas slosh and he offered to put some gas in the vehicle. I told my wife and she smells something rotten in PA. Please let me know how you did with a full tank,not half but full. This is supposedto be when the problem occurs.PAY ATTENTION ALL YOU PROSPECTIVE MDX BUYERS.
The 2005 MDX has a new gas tank to fix the "sloshing" - actually a clunking noise. I have an 04 MDX and I noticed it right away - that is after I bought it. Knowing what it is, it really doesn't bother me that much . But it would have been a show stopper if I had known it before I bought it.
According to the dealer, the intermitent heat problem was realted to the faulty Navi Control unit. They told me that heat can also be controlled by the navi also dont quite understand it but we will see, the other reason was because of the cable that controls the temp they tighteed that as well, The dealer dropped of the car last friday night, They picked it back up yesterday as the dash was not fully put back together thank god i wasnt in for an oil change!!! Just a careless service tech
Those were my two choices. Picked the MDX because it was the great compromiser. The FX was too over the top, the ride was too harsh and the visibility was horrible. Cool looks, though.
I have an 04 MDX with about 6k on it. Didn't hear the brake noise till about 2k. Brought it back to the dealer they claim that the late 04's already have the shim and the shim still has the noise. Any suggestions? How can I tell if it has the shim?
how would you describe the noise? What I have with my '03 is a clunking as the pads move back and forward.
For example, I back out of my garage and they clunk a bit as the pads shift back braking the vehicle going backwards. Then the first time I brake after going in drive they clunk back to the forward position.
I discussed with my local Acura Service Manager. He said he had the shims but wouldn't bother since it is how they are designed.
I have chosen to ignore it since it only happens when one starts out.
Same noise, it is a clunking. But mine happens occasionally throughout a whole drive, not just starting out. Although there are shims, supposedly, just thought there may be another solution. Any other thoughts anyone?
Comments
Luckily there are 2 dealerships where we live. The car is now at the second dealership where they are trying to diagnose the leak. We've been without the car nearly 3 weeks with no end is sight. Now the Acura rep want to pull the entire interior from end to end to find the leak. 30 plus man hours just to do that job. Any ideas or has anyone else had a similar problem?
Luckily there are 2 dealerships where we live. The car is now at the second dealership where they are trying to diagnose the leak. We've been without the car nearly 3 weeks with no end is sight. Now the Acura rep want to pull the entire interior from end to end to find the leak. 30 plus man hours just to do that job. Any ideas or has anyone else had a similar problem? WE love the car. We just want it back all in one piece and dry.
Did this happen at your house or the dealer? I suggest taking it to a car wash. If there is a leak you should be able to tell afterwards.
what has your overall experience been with Ramsey Acura? Would you recommend buying a car from them?
Getting Some Lemon-Aid From Your Lemon Maker
Bottom line, you happen to be the unfortunate one having to deal with this issue, for which there is no fix so far. People have come up with so many different things to accomodate this issue like keeping the radio volume up, windows down or up or simply ignore it. People who are writing that they don't have this issue are just the lucky ones, does not mean that this issue does not exist. My request to them is that please do not reply by saying that I don't have this problem. That just irritates people like us, who are dealing with this issue, a lot.
Thanks
Not saying mine doesn't slosh, but I cannot tell? '02 MDX.
No problems whatsoever. Reggie
I have experienced the exact same phenomenon with the heater on my 05 MDX. It seems to do this intermittently, and when it has happened, I was able to get the heat to come on by tinkering with the A/C controls, turning temp all the way up to max, etc. After a minute or two, it would heat up. I am relieved in a way that this problem is not specific to just my MDX. I suppose if the problem persists, I will have to take it to my dealer, although I suspect that this would likely result in the same explanation (or lack thereof) your dealer gave. Please post any progress you make in resolving this issue and I will do the same. Thanks.
I'm sorry to sound so negative but it really stinks that my hard earn money is being spent on a vechile that I don't even like driving or better yet I'm afraid of driving because it might blow at anytime.
If there was a way to let everyone know this problem before they even considered buying an Acura MDX...I would be the first person to post it.
Regarding the banging? There was a TSB issued for '01 and '02's about suspension bolt torque settings and it supposedly fixed some noises similar to what you mention.
A loud banging? That is strange, it is the first report of something like that. What does the dealer say about that problem?
Maybe there is something else going on. Perhaps you should seek advice on these forums (and others we cannot mention) rather than threatening to take legal action against Acura. Sorry to read about your woes, but your time would be better spent finding a solution.
I'm not sure how to take this, but since you don't have the problem with the gas sloshing or the banging noise then you don't understand what I'm going through... and yes I have mentioned the banging noise to the dealer.. as well as had them test drive it with me to hear it and they said it has to do with the position of the tank. When the gas tank is full the noise is louder... so does that mean I have to drive around with a 1/2 tank of gas just to make the noise go away. Well, as I stated and so have others, spending 40K+ on a vechile I should not be hearing any noises... and to top it off the dealership is telling me there's nothing they can do about it and not to worry. Let me ask your personal opinion, if your loved one was driving this vechicle and a malfunction happens because of the sloshing and banging of the gas in the tank would you or would you not want someone "legally" to know that you did complain about it and that no one had an answer nor cared to find an answer. I find it hard to believe that this problem has been happening since 2001 and there has not been a fix in place as of 2005. So if I sound a little bent out of shape it's because I'm the one driving the SUV with the noise... obviously your not.
I guess you should be grateful that you're one of the lucky ones, driving a Acura MDX without the sloshing problems... But thanks anyway for your advice...I will continue to complain until my vechile is fixed.
I purchased my MDX in October, it's a 2004 and the said that there's nothing they can do.
Good luck.
Please. I think you are overreacting. Unless you have some enemies with mob ties, your vehicle will not blow up at anytime. It's just some gas sloshing around in the tank. Many of the vehicles that I have owned have done this, including my 99 BMW 5 Series. Thankfully, the symptom has not yet presented itself in my 05 MDX, perhaps due to the increased noise deadening material added for the 2005 model year. I agree with you that it can be annoying, especially for an upscale vehicle like the MDX. But I have to say that, unlike you, I am completely satisfied with this vehicle.
"just be happy" doesn't work this time.
My husband and I have been calling client services for 4 weeks now. No one has even bothered to returned either one of our calls. It bugs me that they were all over us to BUY this vechile, but now that we have a problem they don't even have the decency to call us back.
Thank you for understanding how upset we are about this situation.
I think you have something with the banging. Go to another dealer...if they cannot fix it, perhaps pursue the lemon law or getting a replacement car.
So I wonder, is the sound akin to a fingernails on the chalkboard sound (i.e. some people can't stand the sound, but others are not bothered at all)?
The human body is good at recognizing which inputs are important and filters out the rest. Millions of inputs hit us simultaneously, and the brain decides which are worth pondering. For me, I can't stand a hissing noise at a frequency around 2k Hz, that can come through a stereo system. If there is noise at the frequency (a signal clipping type noise) it drives me up a wall.
I wonder if this sloshing is similar? Most people who say they don't have the problem just aren't bothered by it and tune it out?
Soon I'll be driving MDX and Pilot, so I'll be listening for this.
Please note that I have spared all of you the other 4 initial defects / problems I've had with this thing in the first 4 months of its life. And it only has 2900 miles on it! Other than the initial quality problems this SUV is great (if you can believe that.)
Just a word of advise, I test drove the the Pilot, there was no power... felt like it was hesitating. When I test drove the MDX I didn't hear the noise, I found out the reason was that there's only about 5 gallons of gas in the tank... not enough to hear the sloshing. The noise gets louder with more gas in the tank.
Have fun shopping...
My question now is how do you know if they put a new control unit or a remanufactured unit in my MDX. I dont want remanf parts in a $45,000 car with only 325 miles. also is the 2005 control unit different than the 2004 and prior years?
I too have had problems with the heat not working in my new 2005 mdx. Only happened once and seems ok since. See earlier posts. But the dealer did not fix anything with the heater. It just started working after sitting in the dealers garage overnight. Did your dealer actually put a new part in or fix something on you mdx? If so, can you share what it was?
Unfortunately, there is not much choice for a decent luxury SUV in the mid-thirties range, for me it is either MDX or FX, but MDX offers more utility for the money. Anyone else went through the selection process, any other car to consider?
I was amazed to read your test drive with little gas in the vehicle. This was exactly what the salesman did to me from a dealership in Penna. I told him my main concern was the gas slosh and he offered to put some gas in the vehicle. I told my wife and she smells something rotten in PA. Please let me know how you did with a full tank,not half but full. This is supposedto be when the problem occurs.PAY ATTENTION ALL YOU PROSPECTIVE MDX BUYERS.
For example, I back out of my garage and they clunk a bit as the pads shift back braking the vehicle going backwards. Then the first time I brake after going in drive they clunk back to the forward position.
I discussed with my local Acura Service Manager. He said he had the shims but wouldn't bother since it is how they are designed.
I have chosen to ignore it since it only happens when one starts out.