Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

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Comments

  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    Our '00 Outback AT doesn't ping. We use Amoco 87. Our gas is the reformulated ethanol blend used in the Milwaukee/Chicago area. I've also used Mobil 87 and Shell 87.

    One thing I do periodically (ok, almost every time I'm driving) is to accelerate mildly to about 4k or so, sometimes 5k. Not only does it make for an exhilirating drive, but I believe it can help rid of carbon deposits - which can cause ping-ing. (I may be way off base here)

    Even our Saturn SL adjusts for ping (sometimes referred to engine knock). If you're accelerating up that hill in 4th doing about 30-ish, it'll ping a couple of times and then the ECU adjusts the timing and the pings go away. I believe this is similar to what our Sube's have. So, if it's just a couple of pings, then it's 'built that way'.

    -Brian
  • erics6erics6 Member Posts: 684
    Colin- I've tried 92 octane. Thought it had solved the problem last fall, but it was just the cooler weather. Once it warmed up again this spring it started pinging again using 92 octane. I've gone back to 87 since the octane has no effect. (The tune-up I did helped performance, but had no effect on the pinging.) I've never noticed a performance difference between super and regular, but then again I don't autocross.

    Frank - My driving is about 50/50. Usual urban driving and West coast highways at 70+. Champion and NKG plugs have had no effect on pinging.
  • owellsowells Member Posts: 16
    Oddly, we've experienced two types of knocking, detonation, pinging - whatever you call it. There's been a very loud "knocking" sound that the ECU did seem to adjust for; until a recent tune-up this loud knocking would occassionally occur when quickly accelerating or (briefly) when starting up in the morning. The pinging is a more muffled chatter, sort of like what a deisel engine might sound like under load. And, no, it is not that characteristic boxer growl. This latter type of pinging is sustained if the rpms aren't changed, no ECU adjustment seems to be made. And the pinging has persisted after a tune up.

    There's also been no change with 89 octane, but I'm willing to try going up to 92. Close by our only name brands are Amoco and Phillips; Shell and Sunoco are further away.

    We primarily drive lots of small trips in a small city, so I've been concerned with carbon build up. But I do accelerate it to or above 4K rpms on a relatively regular basis, have used Techron quite regularly, and we make frequent 4+ hour highway trips. We've also experienced pinging on highway ramps, so it's not just happening in town. My opinion: If it does have carbon build up at 20K in 16 months, something isn't right with the powertrain's design.

    Much of what I've read suggests that detonation is caused by a lean condition which can lead to excessive heat. I'd hate to move to cooler plugs (which are usually recommended with performance mods) when it's an ECU keeping the mixture too lean.

    Thanks for all your comments, and to Patti for her concern.
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Eric, you wouldn't happen to know the part numbers for the NGK plugs you tried

    -Colin
  • erics6erics6 Member Posts: 684
    Colin- sorry I don't.

    -Eric
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Colin,

    Can you feel the difference between premium and other grades of gasoline right away? I'm curious since Patti mentioned that it takes a few tanks for it to kick in.

    I've personally found that I get a tad better milage and maybe some performance by going from 87 to 89. No knocking or pinging.

    Ken
  • pattim3pattim3 Member Posts: 533
    Yup - your situation is one of the cases that I'm referencing. We're trying - I know how frustrating it can be.

    My long post was just for some "other" considerations based on some of the cases I have seen. The "few tankfulls" process has helped some.

    Hopefully we can straighten this out soon.

    Thanks for your patience.

    Patti
  • vincer2vincer2 Member Posts: 97
    Colin,

    Can't knocking also be caused by premature detonation from the ignition firing too far before the piston is at top dead center? The knocking is actually the noise produced by the early detonation forcing the piston down while its still moving in an upward position (before top dead center). If pinging and knocking was being caused only by excessive heat, maybe from carbon buildup or too lean of a mixture, retarding the timing would not correct the problem.

    Making the mixture more gas intensive can help on the heat side by helping to cool the chamber but it also reduces gas mileage and could also lead to carbon buildup because of the richer mixture. This also has air pollution considerations.

    Vince
  • vincer2vincer2 Member Posts: 97
    Colin,

    Can't knocking also be caused by premature detonation, or the spark firing too far before the piston is at top dead center? The knocking is actually the noise produced by the early detonation pushing back against the piston before the crankshaft positions it "at or over top dead center". If pinging and knocking was being caused only by excessive heat, maybe from carbon buildup, retarding the timing would not correct the problem.

    Making the mixture more gas intensive can help on the heat side by helping to cool the chamber but it also reduces gas mileage and could also lead to carbon buildup because of the richer mixture. This also has air pollution considerations.

    Vince
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    No pinging or knocking on my 01 MT Forester with 18K miles. I use only 87 octane and usually get it from the local QT (convenience mart) since they're usually the cheapest. Speaking of which, there's at least one good thing about living in Georgia, my last fiil-up was at $1.36 a gal.

    -Frank P.
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    '00 Forester w/AT, 23.5K miles, use 87 octane exclusively, usually Amoco or Mobil though somtimes Sunoco.

    Frank P. - I lived in Georgia 1981-85 and 86-88 for college, grad school and work. I still miss it sometimes though Atlanta has changed so much since '88 it's become like Los Angeles East to me.

    Ed
  • rangerron7rangerron7 Member Posts: 317
    00 OB with 9k and I use 87 octane exclusively.

    Brian, too many coincindences... 00 Outback, I own a Saturn SL and live in northeastern Ill too.
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    So, would the MT ping differently from the 4EAT?
    Now that I'm enlighted (candle power) - you'd described earlier for Kate (marbles in can), would the reaction on MT sound like "grrrrrr" and some rattling(like letting off the clutch and not giving enough gas)and for the 4EAT would be like accelerate grudgingly or like all revs but no increase in motion?
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    in my manual 97 OBS using Sunoco 93 exclusively (Amoco or Exxon premium on trips). Also no ping in my wife's auto 99 OB using the same fuel.

    The UK Impreza club has good info on switching octane. Although they recommend resetting the ECU when going to a higher octane (advised against by Patti as it could wipe out ECU error codes).
    http://www.sidc.co.uk/faq.htm#2.4
    Dennis
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    I have a 00 OB 5spd with 11900 miles, using primarily Getty 87 octane, with no pinging in the NYC area.

    Mark
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Not that this is directly related to pinging, but Mark using Getty reminded me when I tried Getty for a few weeks. He's in NY and I'm in NJ and my car ran like a dog on Getty 87 and 89.

    It also ran like a dog when I tried Texaco. A few years ago on another forum, people in the West swore by Texaco.

    Dennis
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Vince-- you are correct, the ignition timing advance could be too aggressive. Or it could be that it's not pulling back timing advance in response to the knock sensor like it should.

    There's no such thing as premature detonation. Detonation is when the fuel explodes, which is a very violent burn. Proper ignition is a controlled burn. It all happens fast, no doubt, but the air/fuel mix is definitely burning and not exploding.

    -Colin
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    In the NY/NJ area, I use Mobil, Sunoco, Exxon, Hess and Shell. I never fill up in NYC unless I absolutely have to, and even then, just enough to get me to NJ. :) I always stay away from the Getty/Gaseteria/Texaco/etc. mostly because they are usually crappy gas stations with bad tanks. I think that is more of a consideration than the actual brand, is how good is the station's tanks, if they are leaky, water can easily get into the lines. I also never fill up when they are loading in fuel to the tanks because it stirs up any sediment in the tank.

    -mike
  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    Temp 80 - 85F, high humidity, 01 AT OB, 3K miles on car - going up and down hills yesterday on the Taconic (NY)- No ping! Patti, if everyone gives details such as gas grade and type, where they live, AT or MT, when built, and details of when it pings maybe there will be enough info to help your engineers. I tend to switch back and forth between 89 and 93 octane (Hess, Mobil, Sunoco). So far the only difference between the grades seems to be performance, but, I haven't driven enough with both types to say for sure.

    Greg
  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    Is everyone who has pinging own an OB? What about Foresters and Imprezas with the same powertrain? If it's only OBs, can this be traced to being built in the US and possibly using different components or the ECM being programmed differently? Just a thought.

    -Greg
  • armac13armac13 Member Posts: 1,129
    Sorry, forgot to include the details. '01 Forester, AT, 16,000km, 87 Chevron, no ping ever, Vancouver, BC, Canada, no high temperatures yet this year.

    Ross
  • originalbitmanoriginalbitman Member Posts: 920
    Never had ping on my 00 GT wagon MT with 12k miles 89 octane. We drove 9k miles all over the country buying gas as we found it including the alcohol mix in the midwest and no ping. Same for my 01 GT wagon MT with 4k miles.

    bit
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    Mike and Dennis,

    I buy the Getty in Bayonne near the train I take. Its the only gas between the light rail and SI, and it's 20-25 cents a gallon less than SI. When I travel I try to use Sunoco or Shell, but like I say its a lot cheaper than home. So far, so good as goes having no problems.

    Mark
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    I actually grew up in Chicago. We moved to SE Wisconsin about 15 years ago (I was a mere 14 then).

    -Brian
  • erics6erics6 Member Posts: 684
    From what I remember, I think both Legacy and Forester owners have commented on the sustained pinging problem. I think it's the Phase II engine only.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I know the station well, it's relatively new, and I've bought gas there myself when I used to work in Jersey City. Where does that light rail go to? I've been thinking of taking it to the city for work, but figured it would be too much trouble.

    -mike
  • hennehenne Member Posts: 407
    we get a slight ping using 87 octane when climbing up the mountains at 35mph (speed limit) in 3rd but only if its a long climb. my dodge manual for my 4.7 v8 says that if you tow heavy loads or climb in the mountains you might want to use a higher octane to help prevent pinging. never tried a different gas when going to the mountains because we always already have a tank of 87 in the car so no idea if it would work.

    anybody try that?

    Robert
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    I had a Jeep Cherokee that used to ping on long inclines in the mountains. Switching from 87 to 89 octane did seem to help in its case.

    -Frnak P.
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Mike,
    Right now the light rail goes from Bayonne to Jersey City. Eventually, it will go to Hoboken and up to a Park & Ride on the Turnpike.

    Earlier when we where talking about SoA focus groups, the focus group I mentioned was a light rail focus group. They were trying to find out if people would take the light rail from Liberty State Park Park & Ride to J.C. I said no and left with my $75 cash. :-)

    Dennis
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I remember them building the light rail when I travelled into JC. I worked @ PSEG right next to where they are building Allied Junction. I watched them build the building for it, and even drove/drive through the back 300 acres of property there as a shortcut to the NJTP when 1/9 and other roads in the area are backed up!

    -mike
  • wcm3wcm3 Member Posts: 3
    Hi all,

    I'm new and not sure whether this topic is trivial or not, but here goes. I bought a new 2001 Outback (auto) in early April '01. My brother-in-law (a car technician in Japan who sees lots of Legacys and Imprezas in his work) told me today if I want to keep my car in good shape, I really ought to have the front and rear differential fluid replaced after the first month, along with the engine oil and filter.

    I use the car everyday mostly for those short spins to the grocery etc. that wear an engine down, and can understand the logic of giving everything clean oil early on (my engine oil looks pretty dirty now, and the car only has a 1000 miles on it). But I can't see how one can change the front differential oil without one of those vacuum-tube devices that many of the lube shops use. Heck, I can't even get my hand down to that little yellow differential oil gauge.

    Is this a procedure for qualified Subaru shops only? Anyone have a rough idea how much they'd charge for this?

    Wally
  • evilizardevilizard Member Posts: 195
    You can change it yourself. You might not even need to jack it up, but if you do you will need blocks.

    To change the rear differential you'll need a bit of strength. Its located on the back of the differental crank case. You will need something to suck the old fluid out. Doesn't have to be a fancy vaccum hose, get one of those little hand suction pumps.

    On my 96 they sealed that differential plug in with some type of glue/sealent. Its hard and brittle after you break it, you would do well to clean the threads off, you'll need a small dental pick like instrument (I know the dealer doesn't take the time to clean them out). Otherwise you run the risk of pushing grit back into your differental case when you close it back up.
  • babaorileybabaoriley Member Posts: 74
    I've never heard pinging on my 2K OB AT in 23K miles. I've always used 87 Octane, mostly from Valero (formerly Exxon) in the Bay Area.
    One thing I do is drive around town in 3rd. The 4EAT likes to shift into 4th even at 30 MPH and less than 1500 RPM. With the OB's weight, I like to keep the RPMs above 2000, otherwise the engine feels like it's bogged down.

    -Brett
  • pattim3pattim3 Member Posts: 533
    First a disclaimer (SOA participating on a board is new territory, so I think it is important that I'm very clear). I AM NOT A TECHNICIAN, NOR DO I PLAY ONE ON TV. The information that I am about to share is information I received by asking a lot of questions to a lot of people. I may have something wrong and SOA is not at fault for my errors.

    Anyway, I've learned more about "Ping" today, than I think I ever wanted to. Some things to consider:

    Pinging is not the cause of carbon build up in the engine. The ping can be the result of carbon which is a result of poor fuel quality.

    Since our vehicles are CA Spec., they are designed to meet CA emissions standards which are very stringent. CA puts a lot of limits on additives where other states do not have these limits (sulfur for example).

    Severe and constant pinging can cause damage. However, pinging under load or in warmer more humid weather can be considered normal and not harmful. Attempts to retard engine ping can decrease fuel economy and increase hesitation. If it is retarded significantly, you can get a misfire, stumble and hesitation.

    I'll post more as I learn more. Keep in mind. You should always have a dealer check the car out and let them differentiate severe ping from characteristic ping.

    Also, try the 4 tanks of a known good grade fuel.

    Patti
  • texsubarutexsubaru Member Posts: 242
    Neither the front "cigarette lighter" electrical nor the rear compartment electrical outlet on my '98 Forester L are working any longer, when I plug my phone charger (or anything else). But I checked the fuses for both, and the fuses appear fine. Any ideas on what the problem could be and how to fix it?

    On the pinging front, use 87 octane with no notable brand loyalty and have no ping problems.
  • evilizardevilizard Member Posts: 195
    Is one of them loose? I had that problem, one got loose, had spotty connections and it took the back one with it. Got it fixed, works fine.
    Even if the fuse looks good replace it anyway.
    If that fails attack it with a multimeter. How about corrosion inside?
  • mav61mav61 Member Posts: 8
    Been away from the board for awhile and was very surprisd to see all the pinging posts--thought there were only a few of us with this situation but I guess it may be more prevalent than I thought--Manufacturing problem or characteristic? Who knows. Thanks Patti for all your help by the way. In response to your last post, you may be correct but I do have concerns that this seems to me to be a Subaru specific issue--for example, my wife's 00 Accord 4 cylinder doesnt even come close to pinging driving under the same conditions (hills driving home) as my Forester using the same fuel. Other makes and models Ive driven do not ping under these conditions. For those who havent followed, my symptoms are very similar to Eric's and described in previous posts about 4-6weeks ago. After doing all the gas/octane/ brand things many months ago to no avail I decided to stop wasting money and have just been using 87 octane (which the manual suggests). Getty brand (mostly) but have tried Mobil, Shell, Texaco. Massachusetts recently required all gas stations to replace ungerground fuel tanks so I believe the sediment/impurity concern doesnt exist here.

    With Patties help, I finally got the district ops manager and technical trainer to go for a ride with me on Monday of this week. They downloaded a data stream which is being looked at. The pinging occurred during the drive but was not dramatic since there is mostly very flat ground near the dealership (I live about 40 miles away in a very hilly area). I know they heard the pinging but the district ops manager definately played it down and was not willing to say one way or another whether pinging was considered bad or not. He deferred to the data stream analysis. The tech trainer sat in the back with the computer but did not offer any comments at all regarding ping. But Im sure he heard it as well.

    Based on others' experiences, I dont have high hopes reagrding the data stream but I am glad the situation is receiving some attention from Subaru. If I felt confident that this was a minor nuisance, it would be no big deal. But there is no debate among most mechanics that knock and ping CAN be very bad for an engine; it is normal to want to protect a 25,000 investment by trying to correct something that may jeaopardize that expendature. If Subaru is truly confident that this condition will not cause harm, maybe they would be willing to extend the basic warranty against the types of engine problems that may be caused by knock and ping to 100,000 miles or so...with no resolution, some (me included) have expressed a sentiment of feeling a need to trade the vehicle before the warranty expires. This is too bad because other than this condition, I truly like my Forester. Its my first Subaru but I will be hard pressed to buy another one if I am unable to get some hard reassurance on this. Hopefully we will all know something more definative soon.......
  • wcm3wcm3 Member Posts: 3
    evilizard, good point on cleaning out the threads on the drain plug. I think I could replace the oil in the rear differential myself, provided I have a proper wrench.

    With the front differential though (my car has the AT), I can't even see a drain plug. That's why I was wondering whether a suction tube thing is needed (to replace/refill through the oil gauge tube).

    Oh well, looks like this is a procedure I should be prepared to pay for, so that it gets done properly. I'd like to be able to maintain this car all by myself, though. At least that way, I know what's been done to it.
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Wally, the front drain plug is there. There's a diagram in the owner's manual.
    Dennis
  • erics6erics6 Member Posts: 684
    I have to agree with Mav regarding the long-term detrimental effects of pinging on my engine. I realize the balancing act auto manufacturers go through to meet emissions and fuel economy standards. However, in my case and others who have posted here, there appears to be a problem with severe and constant pinging. In my car, if it is above about 70 degrees and under load between 2000 - 2500 rpm - the car pings. In city traffic and on sustained grades the automatic spends a lot of time in that rpm range, so the car is constantly pinging. That really concerns me. I could live with an occasional ping, but that is not the case here. (The past couple of days it's been cooler here in Oregon so it hasn't been a problem.) I have heard an occasional ping in modern cars (especially GM rentals I've driven) which the computer quickly adjusts for. However, I have never been in a modern car that has this type of sustained pinging.

    I really do like my Outback and would like to keep it for a long time, but I am concerned about the longevity of the engine with this type of problem. I hope SOA won't take the corporate line that this is normal and not detrimental to the engine. To the local dealer and SOA's credit, they have taken my concerns seriously. I do hope SOA is able to find a resolution to this problem soon.

    -Eric
  • wcm3wcm3 Member Posts: 3
    Yeah, I spotted the diagram before posting. In my manual anyway, it looks to be for the rear differential only. Guess I need to crawl under the car somehow and take a closer look.
  • evilizardevilizard Member Posts: 195
    Before you go unplugging things go buy a bunch of those crush rings that you use on oil changes. They are not used on just the oil nut. I know they are used on the transmission plug, I don't remeber if they are used on the front differential. But it doesn't hurt to have a few spares.
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    (Sorry for the late answer) The Light Rail goes from 34st in Bayonne to Pavonia/Newport in Jersey City. It will be extended to Hoboken by next year. I find it a great convenience going to work in Jersey City (Exchange Pl.) from SI. I don't think its that bad a price either: monthly w/parking = $93.

    Mike, a lot of people take the train to Exchange Pl and then take the PATH into the Trade Center. Its a lot faster than the express buses. My commute to Exchange Pl is approx 40-50 minutes door-to-door (Great Kills,SI). Hope this helps.

    Mark
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Wow $93 isn't bad, I bet you'd pay that much if you had to park your car @ Exchange place. Too bad I'm not still working @ my old job in JC. We could car-pool! Currently it takes me about 65min to get in on the X-bus to 1 NY Plaza (across the street from the ferry terminal) and 50 min to get home on the ferry&SIRT.

    -mike
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    I should find out what thats like come Jan. We're supposed to be moving back to Manhattan, but I'll believe it when I see it. We were supposed to be there from this past April on, now they say Dec-Jan.

    As for parking in JC- they get $225 per month in my building!

    Mark
  • francophilefrancophile Member Posts: 667
    The following is "to the best of my knowledge" and should not be taken as the be-all and end-all, okeeday?

    Pinging is also called pre-ignition. It occurs when the fuel/air mixture in the combustion chamber ignites before it is supposed to, catching the piston still on its way to the top of its stroke and causing it to whack the side of the cylinder wall, hence the rattling or "pinging" sound.

    Pinging is caused by one or more of the following, possibly others too: fuel with too low of an octane rating (the reason high compression hot rod engines need higher octane is to prevent pre-ignition), carbon deposits in the combustion chamber (they hold heat and ignite the mixture before the spark plug does), timing errors or problems, fuel/air mixture problems (lean mixtures tend to pre-ignite more than rich mixtures). Like I said, there could be more.

    Octane ratings vary by state and even by regions within a state. The same method of determining octane rating is not universally used. Also, what one area calls "regular" might be 85 octane, and one does not reach 87 octane until they move up to a higher grade of fuel. Also, fuel additives and blends vary by supplier, state and region.

    Finally, I do not think that a *little bit* of pinging under high load conditions or on rare occasions should give anyone pause. I had a '71 MGB-GT that pinged if I let the revs dip too low; the combustion chamber on that car was cleaner than any of the other engines I ever tore down, which I attributed to the pre-ignition knocking all the crap loose :-)

    My '00 Subie Legacy with the 2.5L Phase II motor always ran fine on 87 octane, until I got to California. Then it pinged, but not severely; I went to 89 octane, which stopped the ping. Once back in PA I switched back to 87 octane, and all has been well.

    At any rate, looking at the stuff above, that's a lot of variables to contend with for someone trying to get at the root of a pinging problem! Even so, with modern engine control technologies being what they are, I am very, very surprised to hear of the constant, severe pinging problems being discussed. It seems to me that a technical fix should be possible.

    To the guy driving around at 2000 RPMs, all I can say is, rev it up! My Subie absolutely loves to be above 3000 RPMs, and there is a considerable torque and power band that goes from there up through 4500 RPMs. Also, driving at low RPMs *all the time* will increase the likelihood of carbon and other residue buildup in the combustion chamber. Blow those cobwebs out of your Subie every once in a while, and it may very well thank you ;-)

    Cheers,
    -wdb
  • francophilefrancophile Member Posts: 667
    Just scanned that page. Wow, you're right, pre-ignition and "knock" are not synonyms! Thanks for the link.

    Cheers,
    -wdb
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Right, pre-ignition is a (relatively) normal flame front being initiated by something hot in the combustion chamber, and not the sparkplug.

    Knock (or detonation) is exactly that-- an explosion.

    -Colin
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    Wally,
    the drain plug for the front differential ('98 OB w/AT) is located in front of the AT fluid pan (manual pg. 10-24 - if not revised). You would need a long (long) flexible snort [=< size of dime in dia.] funnel to refill.
  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    I have a 1991 Loyale with 120,000 miles on it. It's last emission check would pass the most rigid superclean California standards. My CO was 0.00 PPM, and Hydrocarbons were only 21. The tester was very impressed and said it did better than many 1 year old cars.

    I generally pleased with the Car (except a frequent idler arm repair) and am seriously considering a newer Subaru. I have read a lot about pinging, but nothing about transmissions.

    How is the automatic transmission? How often does it need service? Do they have to be replaced often?

    Is the Manual transmission on the newer cars as fun as the one on the car that I have? Does the manual work will with AWD?
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