Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

mountainman4

I just bought a 97 Outback Wagon. The check engine light came on the other day. Most of what I've read doesn't make this seem like a major issue. Everything seems fine. Is there a scheduled service that is required? Is this a common problem?

kens

Lots of things can throw a CEL including a gas cap that wasn't tightened properly. As long as the CEL light isn't flashing, then it's not something critical. Take it in to a dealer at your earliest convenience. Only the dealer can properly diagnose the cause of the CEL with an OBD scan tool.

Ken

paisan

I had an intermittent CEL light on my Trooper, turned out it needed an ECU reprogram, a Throttle Position Sensor Adjustment, and an EGR valve replacement. (too many acronyms EGR, ECU, TPS)

-mike

paisan

Anyone out there (I'm sure Colin knows) know what the effects of putting in a colder thermostat is on the car, other than it runs cooler? I did a radiator flush, replacement, and did a T-stat on the XT6 cause it was running near "H" or above on very hot days. Now it's great it barely will rise over the mid-point and the engine is loving it. Just curious what the mechanical advantage/disadvantages were.

-mike

armac13

With a colder thermostat the engine may run a bit cooler, but the main change will be that the engine takes longer to warm up. This obviously is of little concern in the summer but may be a problem in the winter. Not only will the heater be less effective (or slower to work well), but there may be additional engine wear since the oil will take longer to reach optimal temperature. A couple of degrees cooler should pose no problem however.

Ross

shndvnca

Hello,

I got a flat tire over the weekend so I replaced the tire
with the (full size) spare. I remember reading that the
tread wear on all the tires should be the same on Subaru
vehicles. How important is that? If I can't repair the
flat tire, do I have to buy all new tires? When do tires
usually need replacing?

I have a 2001 Forester S with just over 30,000 miles on it.

Thanks!

originalbitman

SOA recommends no more than 1/4 inch difference in circumference.

bit

bigfrank3

Ross - I have to disagree. The engine will not take longer to warm up. A thermostat only assures a minimum temperature. The heat transfer is the same with either thermostat, so the vehicle will heat up exactly the same until the opening point of the thermostat. Obviously the higher temp one stays closed longer than the lower temp one. That is the only difference. You definitely will not have as much heat with the lower temp thermostat because of the lower operating temperature of the engine.

Mike - This could be a long story but let me see if I can help, and be brief. Generally a cooler running engine will run better, to a point. The trick is to be at a high enough temp for the ECU to go into "closed loop" mode, where it is actively gathering info and making decisions about adjusting things.

In "open loop" the system operates off of a fixed set of parameters and makes no decisions. These parameters are for things like injector pulse width and ignition timing, and are far from optimal. The system starts in "open loop" and switches to "closed loop" at a predetermined temperature. You need to be above this temp for the system to work correctly and actively.

Practically speaking engines run too hot. They usually have about a 195 degree F. thermostat and run about 200 to 205 because of system dynamics and the control system (fans etc.). They do this for emissions because a hot engine is cleaner on average.

A 180 degree thermostat used to be considered "normal" and a 160 "cold". Today a 160 probably would be too cold, but a 180 works very well. I have put one in my Dakota. One big benefit is more tolerance for pinging. With "colder" coolant around the heads and combustion chamber, the "delta T" is greater so the heat transfer is better. The peak combustion temperature is the same but it dissipates faster to equilibrate with its surroundings, so less "hot spots" causing problems.

With a cooler engine anything bolted to it is cooler also, so there is some benefit from the intake manifold and fuel rail being cooler too. Under hood temps will be lower all over.

Hope this helps a bit, sorry for not being brief.

Regards,
Frank

paisan

Thanks Frank. The engine definitely warms up, the needle reaches mid-point, slightly below mid-point on my temp guage. I got to test it out today in similar conditions to when i had the near overheating problem. 85 degrees, A/C on, and 80-90mph consistent speeds on the highway. Last time I was up just under the "H", which I know was too hot. I've never had pinging problems even with 87 octane, but the car definitely feels better cooler, also the cooler it is, the thicker my oil will be and lesslikely to run into my lifter problem.

-mike

armac13

"Obviously the higher temp one stays closed longer than the lower temp one." This is what I meant. I agree that the heat transfer rate will be the same, it could not be otherwise. With the colder thermostat the engine starts to DISSIPATE heat sooner. To be absurdly extreme, a 120 deg thermostat would cause the engine to take a lot longer to reach a "normal" operating temp of say 185 than would a 175 deg. thermostat. They will both reach 120 at the same time. I'm sorry that I was not clear. :~)

Ross

bigfrank3

Not trying to be picky but this might not be clear to someone. I feel that discussion is always good.

Tbe temperature in a proper functioning system will never go more than 10 degrees or so above the thermostat rating. In your extreme case, an engine with a 120 degree thermostat will _never_ get to 175 or 185.

The curves _are_ the same below the threshold temp, but the lower one "flat lines", more or less, after that. There is no more rise, so yeah, it will take a lot longer to get to a "normal" temp, close to forever.

Regards,
Frank

armac13

Clarity is good, so is discussion. Thanks and no argument.

Ross

miksmi

Good information. Frank, I like when you're not brief -- you post great explanations. ..Mike

bigfrank3

I sometimes think I am taking up too much space.

Regards,
Frank

paisan

I like em too. You learn something everyday.

Is that why they call you "big" frank?:)

-mike

bigfrank3

Actually, no. (blush, blush)

I am part Italian so I have to wave my arms around while I type. It takes me a long time to write a message.

Regards,
Frank

miksmi

What's your source for the EJ25 (H-4) oil filters, part# 15208AA060? Here's what I found:

SubaruParts.com $4.49 + $6.95 shipping
Tischer Subaru, Silver Spring, MD $5.98 , $5.39 qty 12 (10% discount).
Fitzgerald Auto Mall, Rockville, MD $5.98 , $4.79 qty 10 (20% discount).

I'll probably buy a case (12, I think).

..Mike

nygreg

Was just at Sears this past weekend. Purolators were/are? on sale for $2.49. Unfortunately, I could'nt find the listing for a 2001 OB so I didn't buy any. Bought 2 for my Sienna though.

Greg

kathyt

I just bought my first Subaru yesterday. I got it used from an Isuzu dealership in Atlanta. It still has 4000 miles until it is no longer under warranty, so I thought I should go to my local Subaru dealership and have it put on the computer; I want to be sure everything is okay before it's totally my problem. So, does anyone have a Subaru dealership in Atlanta that they could recommend?

FYI, I bought my car because of the loyalty of Subaru owners. It doesn't seem like just a reliable car - it seems like one that people are happy to own. I'm looking forward to feeling the same!

stevek

See if you can buy a NAPA filter. It is a good brand and the filter is actualy larger than the little lawn mower size filter Subaru sells.

miksmi

Steve & Greg, thanks. Greg, what model? Purolator makes the Subaru filter though there is some difference. Here are the Purolator oil filter part numbers (from website):

PureONE PL14460; regular L14460

Here's a USMB discussion about oil filters.

..Mike

miksmi

Congratulations and welcome to the Subaru Crew! I'm not from Atlanta but Frank P. is; I'm sure he can point you in the right direction. Also, see the Subaru Crew: Best Services Facilities topic.

..Mike

p0926

Kathy- Congratulations! What model did you get? I use Conley Subaru in Decatur and have thus far been satisfied. They have 2 master mechanics on staff and their prices are reasonable. The service rep's name is Maurice. The number is 404-325-8400.

-Frank P.

rochcom

One worry with a cooler thermostat is that if it does increase emissions, you will have to keep the high temperature one available to plug back in if your locality has mandatory emission inspections. Also, if I were to consider dropping the temperature, I would have to decide how I felt about contributing more to air pollution. Hmmmmmm. I guess I could compensate by driving less, but then, why have a Subaru? :- )

armac13

Good points.

Ross

paisan

1) No emissions testing on my cars (upstate NY only requires a safety inspection) and no ODB since it's an '88

2) I race the car, so I want make performance, not really too concerned with the enviromental impact of my 1 little XT6 which gets better milage than my Trooper, so if it blows up, I'd be driving that the same miles and it gets much worse milage than the xt6

I'm also not positive that it will increase the emissions beyond the normal range, even if I did have an emissions test to do. Thanks for all the input though.

-mike

kathyt

Thanks for the welcome.

I'll call Conley Subaru.

I bought a Forester S. I love it so far, but I'm having what I hope is just a little glitch. The light that tells me that doors are open stays on even after all the doors are shut. Am I just not being forceful enough when I shut them?

nygreg

I think others have had the same problem. IIRC they were fixed by a slight adjustment to the rear hatch. Try having the dealer look at it. So, tell us more. Color, options, etc. Oh, and since you now have a Forester you need to go buy a dog and name him Dave (if you don't have one already). :-)

Greg

You'll understand soon enough

armac13

Alternately, you could name your Forester "Dave" and name the dog "Forester". As far as I know it hasn't been taken yet as a car name. :~)

Ross

p0926

Cathy- I agree with Greg, it's probably the back hatch. I know that I sometimes have to slam mine to get the dome light to go out.

-Frank P.

bigfrank3

Here in MA we have some of the strictist emission testing requirements. My Dakota V8 with the 180 thermostat instead of the 195 has no problem passing... squeaky clean. My Dakota _is_ very well mantained though. I think much cooler than that might become a problem.

Regards,
Frank

milo63

I have a flashing "AT Oil Temp" light in my OB. The owners manual directs me to seek a dealer, unfortunately my past dealer experiences have not been pleasant (or overly helpful).

Any thoughts regarding the origin and required service for this problem?

rochcom

I'm glad that a lower temperature doesn't cause problems. I was thinking of Subarus. My concern is that New York does have an emission inspection requirement for newer models. Inspections begin after the second year of ownership. I recall that on another board, some Subaru owners reported problems with passing the ( I believe) New Jersey emission inspection, even without modifications.

In looking at replacement thermostats, I noticed that the one recommended for Subarus seems to be a two stage unit. This type is a bit unusual, so I wonder if it is available in different temperature values.

p0926

"New York does have an emission inspection requirement for newer models"

This is what I don't get... why insist on emissions testing for newer models but exempt older ones when it's the older ones that are far more likely to pollute? Also, here in metro Atlanta, there is a ceiling on the amount that a driver has to spend trying to fix the problem. After spending $300, the vehicle is passed regardless of how much oily black smoke is belching from the tail pipe!

-Frank P.

subearu

The following is quoted from the Subaru Legacy/Outback owner's manual:
AT OIL TEMPerature warning light (for AT vehicles)
If this light comes on when the engine is running, it may indicate that the automatic transmission fluid temperature is too hot. If the light comes on while driving, it is unnecessary to stop the vehicle, but avoid driving up steep grades or in stop and go traffic.

Automatic transmission control system warning
If the light flashes after the engine starts, it may indicate that the auto-matic transmission control system is not working properly. Contact your nearest SUBARU dealer for service immediately.

You mentioned it was flashing - I'd take it to a dealer to get checked out. What year is your subie? How did it happen? Has it gone off at all?

Bad experience with the dealer you bought it from? Maybe there's another dealer nearby that you could try.

-Brian

paisan

Only in NYC and Long Island are there emissions tests. These emissions tests require the car to pass the emissions requirements at the time the car was produced. Older cars are *NOT* exempt from the, but the laws were less strict earlier in time, than currently. They also require dyno testing of non-awd cars for the emissions test now. Outside of NYC and Long Island, it's just a safety inspection. Besides, in NYC you can usually find a place that will work the #s for yah

-mike

paisan

I had this come on on my XT6 when I was running hard during a rally @ 80-90 mph on steep grades, and the engine was up near the "H" We pulled it over stopped and let it run for a few minutes, this cooled the AT and then we re-started it. That combined with the near overheating, is why I went with the cooler T-stat when I flushed and replaced the T-stat. Was the car running hot when your AT Temp light came on? What model/year do you have?

-mike

hammersley

Washington, at least...

Vehicles less than 5 or more than 25 years old are exempt from emissions testing here... the concept being that a newer car will usually pass anyway, and there aren't enough older cars out there to make enough of an air quality difference anyway. Cost is 12 bucks every 2 years. Haven't had the pleasure of running the OB through the test yet. My 69 PowerWagon passed with no problem before it earned the exemption.

Cheers!
Paul

mrdetailer

May I suggest Lubegard? It significantly lowers temperatures and transmission acids. Can be purchased at NAPA.

legacy777

I'm doing some trouble shooting work over email with a friend of mine in that area. We've read the codes and the #1 injector is the code in the computer, and the poor idling and accel match to that problem.

The car, Legacy, has around 175k or so on it. So most likely the injectors need to be rebuilt or replaced, and I'm going to suggest they do all 4, rather than just the one.

Any one have any experience with dealers or independant shops in that area, that you can recommend. I'd prefer independant, as they are usually less expensive, but any info is greatly appreciated.

Josh

crawdadking

I may be telling everyone more than they want to know, but someone may be interested in what I found out about oil filters. A few months after we purchased our LLBean I bought 5 Baldwin oil filters #B227 which cross to Purolator L14459. I assumed the H-6 would use the same filter as the H-4. When I took the car to the dealer for the 3k oil change they told me the part number for the H-4 and H-6 were different. That didn't make much sense to me but I didn't want to do something dumb and void the warranty so I started doing a little research. First I called Baldwin and talked to their hotline technician. They told me (and then Faxed the specs) that B227, B421, and B301 are the same filters as far as size, threads, and filter medium. The dfference is in the bypass pressure relief and drainback valve. B227 is 20psi with anti drainback valve; B421-14psi/w/anti drainback valve; B301-8psi/w/no anti drainback valve. The reason I am so hot on Baldwin filters is because this is logging and fishing country and a large percentage of heavy equipment and trawlers (with 20 to $40k engines) use Baldwin. In fact, Racor, Baldwin, and Hastings account for about 98% of filters.

I am in no way affiliated with Baldwin and am not trying to sell thier filters, just trying to run my own show.

Next I called the Purolator Hotline 1 800 526 4250 and they put me onto Tech support 1800 848 3783. I talked with Chuck Smith and told him what I had found out from Baldwin and asked him if he would check the SOA part numbers and tell me which filters they crossed to. Now here is where it gets interesting (as least to me). He said the two Subaru part numbers both cross to the same filter, which is Purolator L14460. He said the subs used to use the L14459 but have recently changed to L14460. He said the only difference in the two filters is the L14459 has an anti drainback valve and the L14460 does not. They both have 8 to 10 psi pressure relief valves. So naive me asked the obvious--Why have different part numbers if they are the exact same filter. You have probably guessed the answer. To keep selling Subaru filters for as long as possible.

Needless to say, I traded by Baldwin B227's for B301's and now have one on the car (coming up on 10k).

The one thing I still don't understand is why did Subaru change from a filter with and anti drainback valve to one without it. Especially silnce the filter on the H-6 is perfectly horizontal. How is the filter oriented on the H-4? When I mentioned this to Chuck Smith he said, "good question".

Anyway I've rambled to long. Bottom line -- Purolator L14460 is the filter for H-6 engine if you like purolator (and I do believe it's an excellent filter)

Guy

milo63

The light comes on and flashes at engine startup. I suspect it has no correlation to oil temperature, but is a diagnostic signal of some sort. The light flashes for approximately ten seconds, then shuts off. It reappears only when the car is re-started.

It's probably time to hook up the computer for a diagnostic reading.

paisan

It's a self-test, so you know the light is working? Although 10 seconds seems a bit long. It probably has the stored code of when the AT Temp light originally came on. But that's just a guess. Check your brake lights. On my Trooper, the AT computer controller was on the same circuit as my brake lights. When I blew the fuse on my brake lights due to a bad hitch wiring harness job, my AT Temp light and other trans lights came on. Just a thought.

-mike

kens

Guy,

Thanks for sharing the info on the oil filters.

FYI, the oil filters in the H4 mount vertically.

Ken

bigfrank3

Good detective work!

Most if not all horizontal filter applications, that I know of, have anti-drainback valves. This is because a horizontal filter could empty itself, depending on the rest of the system configuration, when the engine is off. You don't want to refill the filter at every start. You have no oil pressure without a filled filter.

A vertical filter, open end up, only, as used on the H4 cannot empty, so it would be less important to have the valve. I do not know if the filters for the H4 have them or not.

Regards,
Frank

crawdadking

Something still doesn't add up. It stands to reason that the H-4 with vertical mounting could use the filter without an anti drainback valve, but the H-6 with horizontal mounting would benefit from the drainback valve.

Now if Chuck Smith was giving me the right info, logic would dictate using the L14460 on the H-4 (no drainback), and using the L14459 on the H-6 (drainback). When I told Chuck that the filter was mounted horizontally on the H-6 he immediately said it should have a drainback valve and he didn't understand why SOA would specify a filter that didn't have it.

Now I am again wondering if there is in fact a difference in the two filters. There always seems to be one more thing to know (or two or five).

Anyway I'm coming up on 10k (I did the change at 7500) and since the changes are free on the Bean to 30k, I'll take it in and let them change it. That will give me a little more time to ponder this. Also it's only a matter of time till the various filter manufacturers list a cross for the H-6.

I gave the info as I received it but must admit that now I have misgivings about it. Buy your filters from a Sub dealer and you can't go wrong. (don't you just hate it when you can't fight city hall :-)

Guy

kathyt

My goodness, things go fast in this discussion! So, now I have to go buy another dog and name him Dave? Is that in the owners manual? Does it have to be a Golden Retriever-ish sort of dog, or could I go get another Cocker Spaniel?

The car is red, so I named it "Big Red Forester". These are the options: Compact Disc Player and cassette player, Automatic 4-Speed Transmission (an essential in Atlanta traffic , Heated Front Seats (will I use them?), Heated Power Mirrors, Leather Seats, and Skid Plates (I will use those, Atlanta has streets like Medellin). I would have liked the tow package, but this one had everything else I wanted and used Foresters don't last long on the market here. I am the envy of my friends. Considering my last car, though, it's about time.

I'll tell the guys at Conley Subaru about the light. Maybe they can give it a tweak.

Thanks for the advice. Sorry about the Dave thing.

miksmi

Kathy, you're a fast learner!

The heated seats are good for weary bones on a chilly morning (if there is such a thing in Atlanta).

..Mike

armac13

It's a shame about the name. My Forester is Rufus which means "red" even though he isn't (he's gold). Any type of dog will do. Juice's "dog" is certainly "any type". Cockers are sporting dogs so they are great. You don't actually have to name the dog Dave as long as you know someone named Dave. Enjoy Big Red.

Ross (middle name David)

texsubaru

Yeah, any type o' dog will do. I have two kinda dorky little dogs (dachshund and a Welsh Cardigan corgi), and they co-exist with our Forester just fine. ... But I do think owning a Mac should be obligatory.
-- Just another one of those Daves