Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Legacy 2.5 GT gets a 4 speed shiftronic. I'd like to see a 5 speed in a 3.0 GT Limited. Hope so!

    -juice
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Made the switch to synthetic today, after 44K in the GT. Also got new front pads. I missed my 30k service interval, so I figure I better do that next week. :-o
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    Call anyway to get a case documented now. You can tell the Rep. to document that I told you to do this. That will help me remember next winter if you have a problem.

    Take care!

    Patti
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Redline or Mobil 1? Just curious.

    I did the 30k myself, Darlene sourced all the parts. I ought to call her to see how they're doin'.

    -juice
  • peterson10peterson10 Member Posts: 116
    OK here goes: (assuming I am on level ground and not in a hurry) my engine rpms are around 2000 when I begin to engage the clutch. As the clutch picks up, and the wheels begin to roll, the rpms (obviously) fall a bit. But, as I am throttling up the whole time, this is immediately overcome. By the time the clutch is fully engaged (and my foot lifts off the pedal) my revs are in the neighbourhood of 3000 rpm. All this in the span of one second. All further upshifts occur at or near 3000 rpm.

    So, right or wrong, that's the way I drive and, as I said, I think my take-offs are pretty smooth and I experience no clutch chatter (so far). I did try ONE lower rpm take off last night, as others seem to recommend (1000-1200 rpm), but the engine lugged horribly and the clutch slipped/lurched enough that I won't try that experiment again (not on MY car anyway). I also think I caught my first ever whiff of that burned-fish-clutch-smell...or perhaps it was just the tuna sandwich my daughter left on the back seat.

    YetAnotherDave
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    YAD,

    Sounds like you're taking off at a pretty high rpm to me.

    -Colin
  • armac13armac13 Member Posts: 1,129
    I agree with Colin. In my 35+ years of MT driving a wide variety of cars, I rarely revved the engine that high for starting unless I was in a real hurry. Unless on a hill or in a rush, 1200 for full engagement was more like it. Different strokes.

    Ross
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Glad to hear this clutch talk as I'm learning the finer points of shifting now with my XT6. I've found with the 6-puck, i need to be between 1500-1700rpms on the XT6 in order to not get lugging of the engine. Before I had to clutch done on the bad clutch I could engage it w/o any throttle, around 1000rpms. Should I be trying to engage it at around 1000-1200rpms? Just curious.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You have a very robust clutch that can probaly handle whatever your needs are at the time.

    -juice
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    Do you really think there's any variation in Paisan's perceived "needs of the moment"? No, it's go-like-heck, stop (if he must), go-like-heck, repeat as needed.

    On a separate matter, I sure wish cough*juice*cough the "legacy - typical high mileage repairs" board was active. Here's what's happening in my neck-o-the-woods...

    1994 Legacy Turbo, 85,000 miles, just developed an oil leak. Thought it was a bad filter, the oil change place replaced it, leak got worse. Really
    bad this morning. (total elapsed time = maybe a week) Just took it to a dealer. Says could be the crank and/or cam seals, but they were replaced at 60k for the timing belt, so they doubt it. Says it's probably the oil pump seals. Suggests oil pump seal replacement, water pump replacement, timing belt since we are in there along with the timing belt tensioner that I've seen mentioned before. I am thinking I might replace the valve
    cover gaskets because I have some seapage on one side. I know I won't be saving myself any money, but I will kill two birds with one stone convenience wise. All together looks like $700-800, sound reasonable? I'm not the least bit mechanical, so shadetree stuff is pretty much
    out of the question. Anything I'm forgetting or should consider?

    Thanks,

    Jim
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    mike,

    with a more aggressive clutch you'll find that any sort of very slow takeoff is difficult. the more brutal the clutch, the worse it is.

    I had an old Camaro with a 3 puck unsprung McCleod clutch... it was impossible to get moving surging ahead at an immediate 15-20 mph or so.

    Anyway, slipping the clutch slightly may help with some clutches. Try it on yours, get to the start of the engagement point and pause while the vehicle gets rolling.

    -Colin
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    YetAnotherDave,

    2000RPMs do sound high. I also engage around 1200RPM myself. Have you tried letting the clutch up just to the catch point and then giving it just enough throttle?

    Ken
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Jim: the price sounds reasonable for all that work. Heck, one wheel bearing/axle alone was $880 on our 626, with a discount!

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I'll offer you some $ for your car as is... hee hee

    -mike
  • bkaiser1bkaiser1 Member Posts: 464
    The "just enough" approach has been fine on all of my previous cars, but the Outback just will not tolerate it. Even on my 99 Civic [1.6l engine=not much torque], it would launch in first with barely 800 rpms or so. Once under way, the 2.5 will pull amazingly well from low rpms (1200-1500) with no sign of lugging - -but it absolutely hates getting moving from those low rpms. I agree that starting with 2K and slipping the clutch all the way through 3K sounds a bit harsh, but I would be willing to bet $$ that he has not experienced the dredful shuddering under those conditions. I've been slipping the clutch on the Outback more and more over the past few thousand miles or so because I just can't stand the shuddering that has been present since the car was new. My foot is totally off the clutch by 2000rpms, though, and it seems to be helping somewhat. At this point, I don't really care how long the clutch lasts -- I'd rather have 50K smooth miles than 150K crappy miles.

    Brian
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not me, I'd take longevity, unless I'm racing the thing.

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    I've never put 150k miles on any one car in my life and I doubt I ever will.

    So 50k trouble-free miles sounds good to me. A stock clutch should last 100k without trouble though, IMO.

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I take lots of trips. I put 107k miles on my Escort in 7 years, though the clutch was beginning to slip pretty badly.

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    I average 12,000 - 15,000 per year with few trips. I'd have to drive the same car and only that car for 10 years to rack up 150k... not gonna happen.

    -Colin
  • revcounterrevcounter Member Posts: 3
    No violent bucking lately, and of course the dealer found the car "smoother than 85% of the cars we see."

    A warm 2.5 liter engine has adequate torque to gently launch my empty Forester on level ground from 600 rpm. This is a big engine for this car. The rest of the world makes do with 2.0 liters. I don't see the harm here.

    I saw a video of an Audi Quattro laying four solid patches of rubber around a turn in Greece. That took a little over 500 bhp.

    My Forester doesn't have the brute power for this trick, so where the Rally-spec Quattro dissipates the slip in its system through its tires, high-rev starts come out of the hide of the clutch in lesser 4WD cars.

    This is why I engage at the absolute lowest engine speeds at all times. I need to drive the car for many years.

    Thanks to the person who suggests uneven wear on the clutch plate. This sounds best for now.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I generally put 20-25K miles a year ON EACH of my 2 cars :) Happy trails.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My Forester's pace was brisk but I decided to get a 3rd car and spread the love. I still drive 12k miles/year on Sandy and another 7k miles on Blanca.

    -juice
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    you did it yourself, eh? Hmmmmm...... service party at your place?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If Q will help baby sit, sure. :-)

    Get the parts and we'll figure something out.

    -juice

    PS Actually I bet she turns the wrenches, we baby sit! LOL
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Yea probably! Although at 31, she might not be able to resist playing with the little one...... :'O
  • peterson10peterson10 Member Posts: 116
    sorry to prolong the discussion, but I'm finding this interesting. I've been experimenting a bit with "take-off revs" and find that, if I slip the clutch a bit and exercise great patience (and nobody behind me is in a hurry), I can get my OB moving smoothly with as little as 1200 rpms. But, is there any real advantage in doing this? After all, the optimal torque in the Subaru 2.5 is (I believe) at-or-about 3000 rpm. Those of us who drive long highway distances routinely have the revs at 3200 rpm, without a rest, for several hours at a time, so the engine is clearly designed to handle it. On the other hand, driving the car below 2000 rpm for any length of time takes a real toll on the engine. Why then, without any benefit from inertia, would it be a good idea to keep the revs at 1200 (let alone 600, as I believe some have said) through the "take-off" phase? I'd like to think I'm open-minded, so feel free to correct me.

    BTW, with my Forester (same engine but geared lower, and its lighter) I "take-off" in the 1600-2000 range, unless I'm in a hurry. With my old Legacy (2.0L), I often took off in second gear, such was the difference in weight and gearing. Finally, I was being a bit hyperbolic with my original figures for the OB, actually, my revs are in the 1800-2500 range for most take offs, but certainly well above what many would recommend.

    Thanks for the interesting discussion all,
    YetAnotherDave
  • ykishimotoykishimoto Member Posts: 12
    How does the gasoline engine injector functions? Yuki.
  • royallenroyallen Member Posts: 227
    Yuki, Since a couple of pages would be a short answer I'll recommend you go to the web site http://www.howstuffworks.com - choose automobile from the home page, then "engine systems" and then fuel injection. You'll find good diagrams and pictures in addition to text.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    My guess would be so that you aren't shocking the system? Same reason you wouldn't do a 3000RPM clutch drop. Also I think the "optimal" rpms are about 2600rpms but I'm not sure on that.

    -mike
  • peterson10peterson10 Member Posts: 116
    I agree that its unwise to jump off the start line with more throttle than necessary, but 600 rpm? My OB and Forester both idle (when warm) at 650. I'd have to engage the clutch at idle speed to accomplish this, and I feel pretty confident I'd not like the results.

    Again, if 2600 rpm (as Mike states, above) is optimal for all upshifts, why would 2000 rpm be "too harsh" for take offs? Perhaps the more critical issue is how smoothly/quickly you get the clutch to engage and then get your foot off the pedal: under 1 second should keep the wear and tear to a minimum, whatever your revs. But if your car is lurching from clutch chatter, you are almost certainly going to wear down your clutch before "its time".

    YetAnotherDave
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Uh-oh, you'd better re-think that if you're not ready to start a family. Tati's a cutie and it'll get her to start thinking of having kids. On 2nd though, we'll let her change a diaper. That ought to buy you a couple more DINK years. ;-)

    I tried Colin's tip of not adding throttle until the clutch is completely released, and it does yield smoother launches.

    -juice
  • ueynueyn Member Posts: 7
    You may remember my posts from a couple weeks back about the flaky clutch hydraulics in my 1999 Outback Wagon. (The clutch pedal would occasionally stick while releasing it and whenever I went to elevations above 5000 feet I would lose almost all pressure and the clutch would barely engage).

    Well, last week the symptoms occured here at sea-level and I rushed to the dealer. I caught the last mechanic as he was leaving to go home at 6 pm and he looked at the car and admitted there was a problem and he would notify the service manager. He told me they would likely replace the clutch master and slave cylinders under warranty. My car has about 50k miles, so I am still under the powertrain warranty.

    The following week I brought the car in and they replaced the clutch master and said if the problem persisted, to bring it back and they would then replace the slave. So far it seems OK.

    The problem now is that I am told that the clutch hydraulics are not covered under the powertrain warranty! They offered to pay for the parts but I had to pay the labor. How can it be that the clutch hydraulics are not covered under the powertrain warranty? They are an integral part of the transmission, they are not a "wear" item like the clutch itself, and they should last far longer than 50k miles. This is clearly a defective item. Not to mention the mechanic told me the warranty would cover it before I had the work done.

    So, where do I go from here? I would really like Subaru to do the right thing and refund labor costs to me. It is not a large sum of money, but to a graduate student every cent counts. Is it true that the clutch hydraulics are not part of the powertrain?

    Thanks,
    Ueyn
  • manddmandd Member Posts: 1
    Hoping someone can help on this. We own a '97 5 speed manual OB, purchased in 09-96. In 08-98 and 53K we had some recall work done. At that time, my wife also reported a clutch noise - "squealing" which seemed to come and go. When the car was picked up, the noise was gone. Since that time my wife stopped working and we now have only 58K on the vehicle. The clutch noise has returned, somewhat intermittent again.

    A mechanic who is a former Subaru master mechanic listened to the sound and said it was possibly a worn throw-out bearing. He said the problem wasn't uncommon and that repairs could end up being expensive if the inside case was worn. He referred me to the Subaru dealer to see if warranty would cover repair.

    The Subaru dealer said they couldn't help on warranty because we're outside of the warranty period. They also said that our service records were archived and while there is a record in the computer of the recall work, there is no record of the earlier report of clutch noise.

    Question: Does anyone know of this being a common problem? Would a throw-out bearing (and any associated repairs) be covered under the 5 year/60K powertrain warranty? If so, I may give the 800-SUBARU3 number a try regarding the apparently lost/undocumented complaint made at 53K/2 years. (I've also noticed from reviewing posts that "Patti" at Subaru seems to be helpful to Town Hall users.)

    Or would this be covered under some other portion of the warranty where 53K would be past the coverage?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ueyn: call 800-SUBARU3 and open up a case number. See what they say, and if they can't help I'd escalate to Patti.

    Daryl: in your case, you're at 5 years, 7 months, so I can see what they would not cover that. Otherwise why would people opt for an extended warranty?

    Call Patti anyway, perhaps they can work something out for you as a good gesture, but IMO anything they do is beyond the call of duty. Good luck.

    -juice
  • theobtheob Member Posts: 148
    Got the hood deflector replaced. Wife took car to dealer to look at the scratch & dent in the hood. They said they'll need to put it in the body shop for a couple of days to fix the hood. Thanks for standing behind your products, Subaru! Hopefully the new deflector will stand behind you a little better!;-)

    Theo in Colo.
  • ueynueyn Member Posts: 7
    I actually called and opened a case about two weeks ago (before I was able to demonstrate the problem to the dealer and get the new master cylinder). I was told someone would look into it and they would call me back... nobody ever called.

    I just phoned back and informed them that I got the new clutch master cylinder and was charged for labor. I asked why the powertrain warranty didn't cover it and was told that the master/slave cylinders are only covered under the 3/36k warranty likely because they are not "internal" to the transmission. Oh well, looks like that's that. Let's hope the problem really wasn't with the slave cylinder.

    At least the powertrain warranty should cover a new short block when the piston slap I hear every morning for 15 minutes gets worse. It's really too bad because I absolutely LOVE this car except for the piston slap and clutch issues (hydraulics and weakness of clutch itself).

    Thanks for everyone's responses.
    -Ueyn
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Great, Theo. :-)

    Ueyn: how much labor are we talking about? A new clutch costs $400-700, so I just hope you didn't fork out that kind of dough.

    -juice
  • beachfishbeachfish Member Posts: 97
    ...I trashed the throw-out bearing and a bunch of seals on my '86 GL wagon learning to drive on the beach with too much air in the tires - when it was new :)

    Somewhere around 1988 IIRC the car developed an engine slap(different engine - I know). It was brutal and the sum total of the professional advice I received from three good Subaru mechanics was "It's probably a valve something or other." "Pay us to tear the engine down to see what it is or live with it."

    They recommended living with it. Okay. I did.

    I'm certain it wasn't the timing belt or the tensioner or a bad plug or a wire - because I had those problems too at other times and the engine noise continued.

    But the car ran just fine until a year or so ago when the front sub-frame rusted out.

    Oh, and mine didn't just slap for a few minutes after start-up - it did it all of the time for the last 11 or 12 years I owned it.

    The mechanic I sold it to fixed the front end and put it back on the road. I haven't seen it in 3 months, but it's still out there on the same engine.

    John
  • ueynueyn Member Posts: 7
    Ateixeira,

    The labor wasn't too bad, only about $100-$150 (I don't have the invoice in front of me).

    As for new clutches, I bought this car used. The first owner went through a clutch in about 25k miles. At that point he and his wife moved overseas and gave the car to his sister. She went through the second clutch by 45k. She had the whole clutch assembly replaced and that is when I bought the car. I'm hoping I can do better than the last two. Part of me thinks this hydraulics issue has always been present and made it difficult for the previous owners to shift well, thus speeding up clutch wear. Now that I've hopefully got the hydraulics fixed, we'll see if the current clutch lasts longer.

    -Ueyn
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hope so. The amount isn't really that much (in the bigger picture), and as long as the clutch lasts from now on I'd be pleased.

    -juice
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Another option you have is to try to get an appointment with the Distrct Service Manager to voice your concerns. You can do that through the dealer.

    -Dennis
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    I thought we '99 owners were going to dodge the piston slap problem. Rats..... :(
  • mrk610mrk610 Member Posts: 378
    Us 2002 owners didn't dodge the slap problems either. 2002 outback 7k with slap .

    mikek
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    and I've heard the cold engine piston slap noise this winter/spring too in our '00 OB w/ 19k. can't wait till it's warmer so I don't hear it anymore, even if it does go away within a few minutes of warmup.

    -Brian
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Hey all. I did a tune-up on the XT6 last night. Wires, plugs, cap, rotor, coil, fan-belt. Seems to run a bit smoother now. Had to actually break off the cap, and use vice grips on one of the screws for it!

    -mike
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    so should you reset the ECU because of the tune-up? sounds like it hadn't had a tune-up in a while.

    -Brian
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I don't think you need to reset the ECU after a tune-up do you?

    I don't think it has had a tune-up in a while, although it did have replacement wires so it definitely isn't the original plugs and wires. Nice thing is that even though it's a 6, I was able to change everything w/o removing any other parts. Although I need to figure out where to put the PCV valve at some point.

    -mike
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Good question. It probably wouldn't hurt.

    Don't dealers do this sometimes after the major maintenance?

    -Dennis
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I doubt dealers do it. If you pull the battery it kills the ODB2 memory. Unless they have another way to reset the ECU.

    The PCV valve should be on the heads somewhere, because they vent gasses from the heads.

    -juice
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