Help a Euro guy choose the right car in the US

ledamien

Can anybody help me with some advice on what used car to pick?
This will be a little long, sorry about that. I just want to give a clear picture of what type of car I like / driver I am.
So, I've been living in the US for 7 years, and I'm about to finish college and start a career in secondary education. Since I've been here, I had three cars. Before that, back in France, I had three others.
My first car was a Citroen BX Turbo Diesel. Great car all around, maybe not sporty but willing and comfortable. Being heavier than the petrol model, the oleopneumatic suspension was not as comfortable as it should have, but there was zero body roll with a good amount of comfort.
The second one was a Citroen Xsara VTS HDI. A lot sportier, it was a great little car. Being a coupe with 120 HP, it was peppy and happy - especially in the mountains. Being a diesel, it was also willing to adopt a more leisurely pace. It was not a fast car, but it fulfilled all my needs. The only downside was when there was snow: being nose heavy, this little puppy had a tendency to wag its tail. All in all, the best car I have ever had.
There was also a Citroen XM (see the pattern?). Very comfortable, but it was an old diesel that had seen too much.
Then, I moved to the US. The first car I had was a Dodge Caravan. The day my sister in law crashed it, I opened a bottle of Champagne (no one was hurt). One day, it went through a puddle and a belt fell on the ground. It may be unfair, but I promised myself to never ever buy a Dodge ever again.
The second one was a Saturn Ion. Can't say that I hated it. Can't say that I loved it. It enacted exactly zero feelings.
Finally, with our second kid, we switched for a SUV: a Mitsubishi Endeavor. Comfortable yet plastic-y, terrible gas mileage, but dependable and valiant. Not something you want to push, but there is something (not much) when needed.

Now, I have to buy a car for myself, to commute to work and maybe make little weekend trips every once in a while. Last time I traveled back to Europe, I borrowed my old Xsara from my niece (it's aging well) and I realized what I was missing: a stick.
So, this weekend, I tried a 10 years old Mazda Miata with a stick shift. It would not do because it is too small, and the gears are too closely spaced, but, man, is it an adorable car! It's a puppy that wants to play all the time. It's almost impossible to not drive it at least nervously. On the highway, it's loud and a little bit out of breath, but on twisty country roads it is a blast to drive. As I'm usually a calm driver, this car would not work for me: after 5 seconds, I'm already on fourth, and 60 mph comes at 3100 rpm! It's a lot of fun, but that would be a weekend car (for the time when I have enough money to buy a weekend car), not a commuter.

Now, Citroens are not sold here and are not as interesting as they used to be. Diesel cars sound louder than I remember - and diesel is more expansive here than in Europe (compared to regular gasoline). Any recommendation for a used car with a stick shift based on what I've presented here?

kyfdx

Do you have a budget?

ledamien

That would help indeed: 12k to 20 k for a mileage / age between 30,000 to 80,000 miles or 2 to 10 years. My rule of thumb is that a car should not cost more than $2,000 per year of ownership (gas & insurance excluded).

kyfdx

ledamien said:

That would help indeed: 12k to 20 k for a mileage / age between 30,000 to 80,000 miles or 2 to 10 years. My rule of thumb is that a car should not cost more than $2,000 per year of ownership (gas & insurance excluded).

I like Golf/GTI hatchbacks. Plenty of utility and can hold 5 people in a pinch. Plus, good seats/ergonomics for the driver... and, fun to drive.

stickguy

Ky beat me to it. I was going to recommend a Golf.

you didn't specify equipment content (other than stick, which I highly support!). But if you can still find one (where are you anyway in this big country?) the launch version 2 door was only 18.5K MSRP. so could get brand new, with warranty, in your price range. Or look for a few year old one. At least with new, your cost is fixed to payment+insurance+gas, since maintenance is covered too.

other possibilities are a Mini, but those are pricey used and can be expensive to run.

other than that, try a Mazda 3 with a stick. Lots of fun, but quite practical.

graphicguy

Not much fun, but any used Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic within your parameters is possible. Much easier to find than diesel cars in this country, too....and likely, more reliable.

ledamien

Well... It seems like an obvious choice, but from where I come from, Volkswagen has a reputation: their cars don't break often but when they do, they break the bank. Plus, they are a little bit overpriced and stylistically boring. I do like the hatchback part, though.

stickguy

Then get the closest Japanese car to a Golf. A Mazda 3 hatch. with a stickshift. well equipped, economical, and quite fun to drive.

Corollas and Civics are not exciting, but they do tend to be very pricey used. At least the Civic can theoretically be found with a stick.

the Mazda besides being fun, is also easier to find with a manual trans.

stever

Perhaps a Kia Soul. But what do I know, I drive a Grand Caravan LOL.

As I'm sure you've noticed, manual transmissions are a dying breed here in the US.

ledamien

I thought about the Mazda 3 - I do like the looks on the latest one - but I heard they are a bit noisy. I don't know what to make of car reviews though: is that really true?
I live in Oregon. Lots of mountain roads and Highway 101 - it is a crime to me to not drive a stick here! I lived in the Midwest for 6 years and understand an automatic transmission there, but not in a place where driving can actually be fun! Plus, to me, it is safer to have a better feel of what your engine is doing.
I note that nobody mentions a US brand. Again, sorry for my cultural bias, but in France, buying domestic vs buying foreign is a HUGE deal - like you would meet somebody and decide if he's worth your time based on what he's driving (small Renault/Peugeot? Probably fun, possibly a moron. Big Citroen? Traditionalist. German? Show off. Japanese? Why do you even drive?). Anything there?

stickguy

here are a couple I found near me (right by Philly). Seem to fit the criteria.

http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/620296462/overview/

http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/615978313/overview/

I like the 2012. might be a little overpriced, but it does have a moonroof!

ledamien

BTW I hear about a 3 cylinder turbocharged Fiesta (available in manual): anybody tried one? It seems that dealers don't have them on their lots: how can you try it?

stickguy

yes, they have that engine now. And as you are finding out, for many makes, it exists in theory but many dealers will never order one to have in stock. You will have to go on a major hunt.

also, just thought of another option. a 2015 Honda Fit. Someone here just bought a stick version, and paid in the 17K range I think. Even an EX with a moonroof is only going to be in the 18K range. That is small and fun to drive, but crazy roomy for the footprint.

ledamien

Thanks for all the recommendations. For the sake of keeping the conversation going, let me answer back:
- so far, the Mazda 3 (2012) seems to be the best choice. It is indeed pretty (for my taste) and I heard it was fun as well.
- Honda Fit: heard a lot about it, but I'm not really attracted to the boxy style. Same thing with the Kia Soul
- Toyota Corolla: when I hear that, I picture an old generic sedan. Maybe a closer look is needed?
- Honda Civic: heard about that one too, but most used stick ones are SI - not sure if I need a car that sporty (but I don't actually know if it is THAT sporty...)
- Mini: heard good things too, but I'm kind of tired of the "retro" thing...

One more thing: I mentioned the closely spaced gear changes on the Miata - lots of fun, but that means high revs at highway speeds. I'm used to diesel engines as manuals - more lenient, with enough torque available at low revs (I actually seldom went over 3000 rpms). Is that something I should live with on a gasoline car? Should I target 6 speeds transmissions? Are there 5 speed transmissions that stay between 2000 - 2500 rpms at 75 mph?

I used to think that a good weight to power ratio was 25 pounds per horsepower - that's about were the Mazda 3 is at - not too much, not too little. Based on that rule (and just for fun), here's what I would hunt for in Europe (in HDI guise, of course):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_DS4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Clio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peugeot_308
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEAT_Le%C3%B3n
And if I'm willing to go bold:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_Giulietta_(940)

stickguy

most of the small cars are the same on the highway with a 6 or 5 speed. they tend to make the in between ratios closer, not the top on taller.

For the most part, i would guess 2500-3000 at 75, depending on the car. You will turn a little higher than in a diesel, but most of these are smooth enough that anything under 3K at that speed is not going to be bothersome. The mazda with the 2.5l is pretty torquey, so should not have to be shifting all the time in that.

If you want cheap fun, this is the golf I mentioned. costs nothing to own under warranty, plus includes free maintenance. I drove this exact car, and it was a blast. very quick. entertaining powertrain. Nice shifting. And rated for excellent MPG.

http://www.cherryhillvw.com/VehicleDetails/new-2015-Volkswagen-Golf-2dr_HB_Man_Launch_Edition_*Ltd_Avail*-Cherry_Hill-NJ/2344427513

stickguy

oh yeah, the 18. turbo had lots of torque down low. No need for constant shifting to get any forward propulsion!

ledamien

OK, I may have to reconsider the Golf, then. Less expensive than I thought...

stever

VW has a bit of that reputation over here that you were referring to in an earlier post. Not so much expensive repairs but just more frequent ones. But VW seems to have gotten better, as has their dealer network.

Other than the CX-9, Mazda has pretty much retained their reliability rep since Ford ended their relationship with them.

ledamien

"Mazda has pretty much retained their reliability rep since Ford ended their relationship with them."
What does this say about Ford?

stever

Well, Ford did a lot of stuff back during the troubles, dumping Mercury and other parts of the company. Personally I thought that getting rid of their third interest in Mazda was a good idea - they had enjoyed some synergies with them and probably learned some good tech. But I think Mazda got more from Ford than the other way around and I've been pleasantly surprised to see that the number of reliability complaints don't seem to have gone up at Mazda.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy either brand (although perhaps not a CX-9).

qbrozen

I'm the guy with the Fit. $16,300 brand new. BUT, after seeing some of your comments, I don't think it is a good choice for you. It revs high on the highway and its not quiet. Its an economy car, albeit a roomy and frugal one that will have great resale. The style of the 2015 is quite a bit different and much sportier looking than the old ones.

The Golf is a strong choice. It drives and feels like a much higher class car than any other compact I've found.

I was also looking for a 3-cyl turbo Fiesta but couldn't find one. I drove a 4-cyl just to see what it was like and it didn't live up to the mazda2 or Fit I was comparing it to. I also drove an Elantra. You may want to check that out for yourself. It wasn't for me, but since quiet and comfortable cruising seem to be higher on your list than mine, it might appeal to you.

Costing $2k/year is a tough metric since that will depend on how long you own it. However, you might take a look at a nice used Saab. I often consider those for myself but just haven't managed to pull the trigger.

MarkHolthoff

What about a nice used 328i manual from a few years ago when it still had the inline 6? Here's one: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=385010145

Sure, maintenance will be higher, but I doubt it will exceed $2000/year on average if you keep the car for a long time. I've run many older Mercedes-Benzes over the years and always found that $200/month was more than enough to keep them in top shape. The key is to find an excellent indy mechanic.