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Comments
Why are people opposed to a choice of more hp? I don't get it.
I've driven several cars with a 3800 powertrain and don't recall the acceleration being anything above average.
Why?
1) The peek HP of the 3.5 Nissan is at a very high RPM so you won't get that extra HP unless you have the manual trans and you are revving the heck out of it.
2) Torqe is pretty even between the 3800 engine and the 3.5 Nissan.
3) The Nissan is a little lighter and that's the main reason why it will be just slightly faster on the street. The supercharged 3800 will SMOKE the 3.5 Nissan engine.
The HP game is tricky. The [non-permissible content removed] put out some good HP numbers but its a smoke screen. Look at the new Accord. 240 HP at like 7000 rpm and 190 lb/ft. That's not very impressive if you ask me. I don't want to rev the engine to 7000 rpm just to go fast. Forget Honda. The Acura's are much better but now we are in the over $30,000 range.
Nissan engine is good. It's the only car in the 20,000 - 30,000 price range that can compete with the GM 3800 series. I prefer American engineered cars.
You are right on the money 02LSsport. It's all about the HP/TQ curves. GM's 3800 pushrod engines have great torque, and very flat curves. The Japanese DOHC engines have to be revved very high to get that HP, and the torque is not great there either.
Engeneering?? Take a look at the Northstar... take a look at the LS1... take a look at the Vortec series of truck engines. Unbelievably durable and powerful.
that engine is not available in the Impala and it will still be awhile before it is. Should hit in about what, 2007?
The 3800 is nowhere near as refined as Honda's v6 or the Nissan v6.
An Acura TL, Accordv6, or Maxima will still wipe off a supercharged 3800.
magneto you are right, they do just throw stuff together. if it requires design and thought they get spooked and don't produce it.
i just don't get the fascination with the 3800, its an average engine by today's standards that was bypassed over five years ago by newer designs and now needs a blower just to develop any hp that's not embarassing.
GM fans, shut up, quit living in the past, go test drive a new Accord v6, a new Maxima. Notice the refinement and smooth power delivery.
I agree. The 3800 is a decent engine but nothing to write home about. When at"bear" says that they need to be revved at high rpms to receive the powe, he must be some old grandpa that doesn't drive his car past 2,000 rpms. It's not like the peak torque is at 8,000 rpms... If you drive a car fast, it revs higher... it goes hand in hand.
I am feeling old and tired again, crawling back into my rocking chair.
And one can disagree without being disagreeable. I HAVE test driven both a Maxima and an Accord. Unfortunately for GM, and for you, I found the Mazda6 to be superior to either of them.
http://www.goissca.org/2004_impala_ss.htm
That's what's called 'bringing the product to market quickly'.
A GM trademark.
Designing and building cars takes time. Mr. Lutz is changing GM in about every way you can imagine, as is Mr. Wagoner, the chairman. It is far, far harder to actually DO than to sit in a computer chair and shoot off one's mouth at the keyboard. GM has made an amazing turnaround. It isn't over yet. Most of the results won't be seen for at least another two years.
That all being said, I understand your frustration. I, myself, may very well buy a Mazda right now. I will be back to GM, but maybe not right now. It all depends on the performance and my quality perception of the Grand Prix GTP arriving at dealers late next month.
Also, GM had a perfectly good Shortstar motor they could have put in the monte.
Damn, most carmakers including Chysler can develop a completely new car in 2-3 years now but that's how long it takes GM to put a supercharger in the Impala and monte and we're suppose to forgive their sad buts for being so dang slow with it?
"Most of the results won't be seen for at least another two years."
That statement summarizes GM's hype for the last 10 or more years....."it will be coming in the future".
~alpha
The GTP did NOT have torque steer.
And to claim an Accord can outrun a W body is sheer silliness. Perhaps as long as the road is nice and straight and the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter in line with Mars...
Run right with or outrun N/A W-Bodies? You're comparing 240HP and 200HP. And with regards to the larger displacements, you're comparing two different kinds of engines: Pushrod and DOHC... they aren't really comparible displacement wise, because they are two different kinds of engines. Pushrod engines have great low end torque which give them a great flat powerband. DOHC engines have little low end torque at all, but they breathe great up top. There aren't any Autobahns here... there are stop lights: I'll take Pushrod. If I lived in Germany (thank God I don't!) I might invest in something like the Cadillac CTS with a great American engineered DOHC V6. Right now in America my dream car is a Z06 Corvette... I can't wait to see what they come out with for the 2005 Corvette! Look out!
Check out the numbers and keep in mind what atbear said about the push rod engine - power comes on strong right away. Its better to have more torque and more HP down low on the street.
I think it is clear that the 3800 engines are up to par or beat out the competition. The numbers don't lie. These are for cars in the same price range.
Grand Prix GTP - Very Good
Max HP - 240 @ 5200 rpm
Torque - 280 @ 3600 rpm
MPG - 18 mpg / 28 mpg
Weight: 3559 lbs.
Impala LS - Very Good
Max HP - 200 @ 5200 rpm
Torque - 225 @ 4000 rpm
MPG - 20 mpg / 30 mpg
Weight: 3466 lbs.
Altima 3.5 - Very Good
Max HP - 245 @ 5800 rpm
Torque - 246 @ 4400 rpm
MPG - 19 mpg / 26 mpg
Weight: 3246 lbs.
Toyoda - Good
Max HP - 210 @ 5800 rpm
Torque - 220 @ 4400 rpm
MPG - 20 mpg / 28 mpg
Weight: 3362 lbs
Honda Accord - Good
Max HP - 240 @ 6250 rpm
Torque - 212 @ 5000 rpm
MPG - 21 mpg / 30 mpg
Weight: 3360 lbs.
Mazda 6 - way overrated Taurus engine
Max HP - 220 @ 6200 rpm
Torque - 192 @ 5000 rpm
MPG - 20 mpg / 27 mpg
Weight: 3311 lbs
Max HP - 220 @ 6200 rpm
TORQUE!!! - 192 @ 5000 rpm
MPG - 20 mpg / 27 mpg
Weight: 3311 lbs
You just don't get it do ya regrugby?
also you fail to acknowledge that GM needs to have extra .8 litres of displacement just to have comparable numbers. Plus the 3800 has major issues with plastic manifolds popping off and leaking coolant all inside.
Don't you understand that its a completely different type of engine. The 3800 has better MPG and better torqe. And basically the same HP up to 5200 rpm. It just don't make any extra power above 5200 rmp like the [non-permissible content removed] engines.
Let me make this really clear for you...
Mazda6
Max HP - 220 @ 6200 rpm
So what is the HP at 5200 rpm? Its probably around 200 give or take 10 hp. I bet GM could rework the engine and let it make 20 more HP at a higher RPM but 90% of the time that extra 20 HP is worthless. It is just a trick to SELL CARS to numb nuts like you who don't look deeper into the numbers.
Mazda6
Torqe - 192 @ 5000 rpm. The 3800 makes 225 @ 4000 rpm. How can you not see how much better that is. The mazda is making like what 170 or 180 lb-ft at 4000 rpm while the 3800 is making 225 at the same rpm!!!
So the 3800 is making the same HP up to 5200 rpm and it is making way more torqe at every rpm AND getting better MPG on the highway. If that is concidered 19TH CENTURY then I guess I'm a 19th century guy.
Good car, decent price. Buying another one when the SS comes out.
Also sat in an 03 black/black Accord EX...man what a gorgeous interior. Lutz has a huge bar to meet on the interior but I'll still take a 3800 series engine anyday.
also you fail to acknowledge that GM needs to have extra .8 litres of displacement just to have comparable numbers. Plus the 3800 has major issues with plastic manifolds popping off and leaking coolant all inside."
You didn't read my message at all did you, regsoccer? Go read it, I've already responded to this... or read 02LSsport's post..
wanna see
1/4 mile
0-60
0-100
30-50
50-70
the NINTH PLACE (in 2000 nonetheless) Impala gets a 0-60 of 8.2 seconds. The Mazda6 automatic v6 tested by Edmunds comes in at 8 seconds according to the article I found on this site. The comparison is valid as it was done by the same editorial group.
So much for all that torque. Taking a cheap engine design, trying to make up for the unspohiscated design by bumping up displacement, tends to make the whole thing heavier and bigger, and seems to have no positive effect on the acceleration or any other part of the car. To top it off you are stuck with a powertrain that does not compare to what in the Ford/Mazda6 Edmunds termed "buttery smooth".
Of course I can also say the 6 with a manual is under 7 seconds which is again even quicker. All this considering the duratec gives up 800cc of displacement. so....
"WHERE'S YOUR MOSES NOW?""""""
you GMer's ought to give it up with all this love for that stupid 3800 v6. IT'S AVERAGE TO MEDIOCRE BY TODAY'S STANDARDS.....get over it. GM may have set up the throttle linkage to make it feel fast off the line (CLASSIC GM 'LAUNCH FEEL') and it no doubt has a good automatic tranny paired to it....but man, its average. Nothing more, nothing less.
We like the 3800 engine because it's very torquey... If we push the pedal to 2000 RPMs we'll get to 55MPH in no time. There's enough torque at 2000 RPMs to get the job done. Push the pedal a little more spiritedly to 3000-3500 RPMs and we are in our powerband!! Imagine that! Being in your powerband MOST of the time... What a concept! I personally love it. The 3800 creates a respectable amount of power for a V6- 200. It also makes a respectable amount of torque- 225. The fact that it's a pushrod engine means that the powerband is quite flat starting at a low RPM. That makes driving it fun everyday. It pulls hard and is smooth, and has decent power.
The 3800 is also tried and true and very reliable. It has the nickname bulletproof because it lasts so long. I can drive everyday and have no worries at all about the engine. It's rock solid! The block and the whole bottom end is very tight (just look at the Supercharged 3800s-- they are boosting into in at the factory!). I'll have my 3800 up to about 270HP soon with simple bolt ons... I'd like to see you do that with your DOHC engines!
And finally in response to your 0-60 times.. I for one don't really believe those times, because they are high. I've seen people do it almost a second faster than that in a 3800 car stock. But even if we took it as true, .2 seconds surely doesn't make up for the amount of weight difference between the two cars, so the 3800 is actually PROVED more powerful by that very test!! I'm sick of typing, so I'm gonna stop.... but just think of this... GM's new engines are coming in the next couple years (3.5L V6 etc)... they are gonna rock!
Impala
0-60 mph in 8.2 sec. 1/4-mile in 16.0 sec.
Monte Carlo
0-60 mph in 8.0 sec. 1/4-mile in 15.8 sec.
Grand Prix GTP
0-60 mph in 7.2 sec. 1/4-mile in 15.5 sec.
Toyoda Camry and Solaro
0-60 mph in 8.2 sec. 1/4-mile in 16.5 sec.
NISSAN MAXIMA
0-60 mph in 8.2 sec. 1/4-mile in 16.5 sec.
Ford Taurus (Mazda6 is based on this engine)
0-60 mph in 8.9 sec. 1/4-mile in 16.9 sec.
Mitsubishi Galant
0-60 mph in 8.8 sec. 1/4-mile in 16.8 sec.
As you can see the GM 3800 is BETTER and STRONGER then its competetion. The numbers don't lie.
Too bad they didn't have the Mazda6 listed yet. So it does 1-60 in 8 seconds - the Monte Carlo with the 3800 does it in 8 secs too! And I bet the Mazda does 1/4 mile in about 16.5 seconds.
Look at all the other cars I have listed. ALL SLOWER the the GM 3800 so how is it a crappy engine or old technology. These are all current cars that supposidly have great engines even the Maxima.
Hm? How? Hard to believe huh? You can be quite now.
Mazda6 has very nice styling. I'll say that much. It looks fast buy it really is not that fast. With a few easy mods the 3800 can produce much more then 200 HP.
can you post tell us where we can see this information?
-alpha
http://autos.msn.com/home/reviewerspage.aspx?src=Home&pos=Edi- tHL5
I find it pretty hard to believe too on the Maxima. I thought the Maxima would be faster stock. The Altima is listed there with 0-60 in 7.7 sec. and 1/4-mile in 15.9 sec.
I don't know. If you think he is wrong take it up with him I guess. That number was with the automatic trans.
Peek HP does not give you the entire picture. We need to stop relying on that number so much.
Car makers should really publish the HP and torque curve for their cars. Then we can make better and more informed power comparisons on cars. Peek HP and torque isn't everything.
Here's what I see:
Accord (with its comparatively meager 212lb ft)
as per Car and Driver, October 2002:
0-60: 7.0 seconds
Street Start (real world 0-60): 7.2 sec
30-50 passing: 4.0 sec
50-70 passing: 4.1 sec
Quarter mile: 15.5@92 MPH
Impala 3.8L, Car and Driver, December 2001
0-60: 8.6
Street Start (real world 0-60): 8.4
30-50 passing: 3.6 sec
50-70 passing: 5.6 sec
Quarter mile: 16.6@86 MPH
So, basically, the Impala, with its over-sized V6, holds an advantage ONLY by 4 tenths in 30-50 pass. Why are there so many fans of this engine? The torque spread only goes so far, as these numbers show, and this engine needs a supercharger to match the Honda's much more current engineering.
~alpha
Grand Prix GTP
0-60 mph in 7.2 sec. 1/4-mile in 15.5 sec
is rediculous. I know people with completely stock GTPs who ran 14.4's in the 1/4 mile!! That 15.5 is completely off, unless you meant to type 14.5, then that's about average! Approx. 7 seconds 0-60mph is right.
Impala 3.8L, Car and Driver, December 2001
0-60: 8.6
Street Start (real world 0-60): 8.4
30-50 passing: 3.6 sec
50-70 passing: 5.6 sec
Quarter mile: 16.6@86 MPH
is rediculous too, because I (yes, me- direct evidence) ran the 1/4 mile in my stock Impala in 15.8 in 96 degree temps! So it's bogus!
The real point is that the numbers are comparable with most of the other cars in it's segment. It is faster then some and slower then others. The Impala is bigger and weighs a little more too so its a trade off.
Very few cars keep up with me on the highway when I drive fast as it is now so I can't wait to add a few mods. Look out. I had her at like 115 mph on an empty road and it was amazing how solid it felt at that speed.
The real point is that these punks are all over the place saying that the [non-permissible content removed] cars are far superior to what American cars makers have to offer and that is just a load of bull crap.
Please don't bother reading any Impala reviews from Edmunds. They are totally biased against this version of the car. All they do is compare it to the old Impala's and give a bogus review.
Look at the consumer ratings "9.2" or any other site or magizine. Edmunds actualy say the Malibu is a better car so that should tell you right there that they are smoking something.
Ok I'm done now.