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Acura TSX

1356799

Comments

  • ickes_mobileickes_mobile Member Posts: 675
    as Venus said. The 2.0l turns out 160hp. in European trim...
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Doesn't the 2.0 in the RSX have 200 hp. They could use that engine.

    I don't think the base price will be 26,000. I would think it will start at closer to 23,000 - still 4,000 more than an LX Accord. With auto tranny, shipping, and maybe some options, or a higher trim level it may be 26k, then nav may put it up higher still. If it starts at 26k it is only 3k less than a TL, but 6k more than an RSX. I would think the price would be much closer to that of the RSX.
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    The 2.0L in the RSX-S doesn't make enough torque for a ~3000lb. sedan, and also lacks a balance shaft.

    I'm guessing that the TSX will include standard leather, side airbags, and some kind of traction control, which - when combined with the longer Acura waranty - should put the base price right around $25K for a 6-speed, and $26K for the 5-speed manumatic.

    The sticker price on the RSX-S is pushing $24K, so it's not much of a surprise to see the TSX in the $25-26K range. It's definately more car for the money.

    If Acura puts a limited-slip diffy in the 6-speed, they will win me back as a customer.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    I also think ~25-26K is where it'll top off. There's no way they would want to base price this thing so close to the TL...unless the TL is moving up in price too.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    2.0 liter 200 HP has one big problem... it is offered with 6-speed manual transmission only. Not a choice if you want to sell more than a few thousand cars. I'm sure Acura would like to target atleast 30K units with the TSX, as the 'lifestyle' alternative to Accord. ('Lifestyle' is a term Honda used to describe Passat in HondaNews website, a kind of car people would get to 'be different' than go for the high volume car that Accord is).

    My bet is on 2.4 liter I-4 with 200 HP for base version. Now, Type-S could be interesting. IMA boosted 240-260 HP, AWD? Possible.

    As far as weight goes, TSX/Euro Accord with 2.4/I-4 should weigh around 3100 lb. The Type-R (which may be sold only in Japan at this point with 2.0 liter, 200-220 HP) may be under 2900 lb.
  • sunilbsunilb Member Posts: 407
    okay, this makes more sense... I can envision a 2.4L with 200hp [base] and 240hp[type-S]. But, the type-S better not be more than $26K (which would leave room for the base ~ $24K??).

    I doubt we'll see IMA or AWD... most manufacturers introduce these things at the higher end of the segment and then let the technology filter down (this is more relevant to IMA, since AWD isn't really a new technology).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    IMA was introduced in Insight, followed by Civic. Honda has showcased AWD IMA drivetrain since 1999 in cars that could be priced low (Spocket, 1999) or high (DualNote, 2001) or somewhere in between (RDX, 2001). And RDX drivetrain makes perfect sense to me. The same K24A, working in the same layout (Front Engine, Front Drive, 200 HP), but addition of two small 25 HP electric motors to the rear wheels. Its possible, if not given.

    Also, DualNote features ATTS on the front wheels, something that came from Prelude. Likewise, S2000 (Japan only) became the first car in 2000 to get VGS (Variable Gear Steering), not NSX. So, technology can start anywhere on the price range.

    As far as my hopes go, I would love to see the RDX drivetrain in the TSX-S, even if that means a price tag approaching $28K. That could leave the base model to stay around $25-26K.
  • carpeople1carpeople1 Member Posts: 13
    The dream TSX should be CL based with 4 doors and 190 HP standard 225 HP type-s standar with 16 inch rims and type s 17 inch. Standard on both should be Sunroof/moonroof, fog lights, Xenon headlights, heated seats, 6 way adjustable driver seat, 4 way passenger seat, CD, Tape, Am FM, and 6 disc changer on type S with sub, and Navi optoinal on both
    With all that:
    TSX should be around 24,5
    Type s should sell for 26

    This wuold be perfect for a competitor to maybe the Max. G35, IS300
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Please no standard sunroof. Some of us really don't like them - they take away too much head room. Adding more frills to a car does not make it better - just heavier.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    Official photos of the car can be seen here:


    http://autoweek.com/specials/2002_paris/

  • heisnsteinheisnstein Member Posts: 45
    According to someone who has been posting his own pix of the TSX on the vtec site, the rear legroom and hiproom of the Euro Accord is identical to the fourth gen Accord, which Edmunds lists at 34.3 inches legroom and 54.1 inches hip room.

    I've tried to cross check this with the interior dimensions of last year's Euro Accord (supposedly slightly less than the new generation), but couldn't find any relevant info on that model, except for a uk site that put the rear legroom for that model at 37.9 inches, which is an obvious error.

    Anyone have any other info on this?
  • swsmsswsms Member Posts: 62
    Across the Acura line, the average price difference between the base and Type-S models is about $2,300:

    RSX base(leather)/RSX Type-S: 21,450/23,670
    CL base/CL Type-S: 28,700/31,050
    TL base/TL Type-S: 29,480/31,830

    In addition, the 2003 Accord EX w/ Leather (2.4L) is listed at $24,160. If the base TSX is going to have at least 180HP with xenons, fog lights, power seat, traction control, sunroof, and bose, it will have to list at no less than $25K. As a result, the TSX Type-S will be around $27,300.

    Just my 2 cents....
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I anticipate about 34-35" rear leg room, or about 2" more than the outgoing European Accord (2003 Euro Accord is also 3" longer, 184" compared to 181").
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    I'm with you all the way -- NO standard moonroof, please! My Prelude has one that I never use, and the entire assembly weighs in at 42lbs! It really does wonders for the car's center of gravity...:^(
  • heisnsteinheisnstein Member Posts: 45
    Don't forget that the Accord EX-L already has leather, power seats, and the sunroof, so really all we are talking about are the xenons, the extra HP and the name. How much is that worth for the base TSX? Considering that the stick EX-L retails at 22,900, I think anything more than $2,000 to $2,500 would be a mistake.
  • swsmsswsms Member Posts: 62
    I agree with you. Just to clarify, I think the TSX base will be a least $1000 more than the '03 Accord EX-L(regardless of transmission) based on the xenons, extra hp and year of warranty, traction control, bose, and the Acura name. In addition, the TSX will have the 5SP sportshift automatic transmission compared to the regular 5SP auto tranny in the Accord.

    We shall see.....
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    One thing to remember is that the TSX is smaller than the Accord, and in the good ol USA that means many people will think it should cost less. Also remember that the Integra 4 dr. was actually cheaper than the Accord EX - I know this is not a direct comparison, but just shows that an Acura can be less expensive than a Honda.

    I guess we will know the price soon enough.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    In the case of the Accord vs. Integra, that makes sense. The Integra 4-door was built on the Civic platform, so of course it will be cheaper than an Accord. But it was more expensive than a Civic EX was in that time frame.
  • yugoboyyugoboy Member Posts: 161
    What do you think the chances are of canada getting the tsx???? We have been cursed up here and i have a strange feeling that honda will not offer this car up here. Apparently we should not complain, because we get the acura 1.7el(which in layman terms is a honda civic with leather seat's and a sunroof).
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    Based upon the fact that Canada has the EL1.7 to begin with, I think you should complain extra-loud!
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    I think the EL is a nice car. But just as Infiniti learned the hard way with the G20, rebadging a compact sedan from the lower brand just doesn't work, regardless of how much leather and wood you can throw in.

    But use that same formula on a midsize sedan, and you got yourself a seller.
  • yugoboyyugoboy Member Posts: 161
    Diploid you make a good argument, however i wouldn't consider the g20 a direct rebadge like the 1.7el, difference being you would need to swim across the pond and drive a nissan primera, all it takes here in canada is a trip to your local honda dealer to see your 1.7el in disguise, or maybe the millions of other civic's on the road, oh and the g20 has suede seat's, and climate control and 20 pony advantage also. I love my g, may it forever rest in peace :(


    http://www.japancars.agava.ru/photos/infiniti/g20_5.jpg

  • swsmsswsms Member Posts: 62
    Here are the official measures of the EuroAccord from Honda (press kit from Le Mondial de l'Automobile @ Paris) , in millimeters (and converted to inches):

     

    length: 4665 mm or 183.7 in

    width: 1760 mm or 69.3 in

    height: 1445 mm or 56.9 in

    wheelbase: 2670 mm or 105.1 in

    front track: 1515 mm or 59.7 in

    rear track: 1510 mm or 59.5 in

    ground clearance: 150 mm or 5.9 in

    luggage space: 459 LITERS or 16.2 cu. ft.

    weight: 1300 KILOS or 2866 lbs (2.0 L econo) to 1490 KILOS or 3285 lbs (2.4L AT)


    All thanks go to kiwic of France for providing this info and pictures on the vtec.net site. Here is the link to his photos from the 2002 Paris Auto Show: http://kiwic.ifrance.com/kiwic/a/

  • ickes_mobileickes_mobile Member Posts: 675
    thanks for doing the conversions! I didn't have time to dig out my architectural standards book with the conversion factors.

    Note that the wheelbase is the same as the NA coupe. That relates to the key dimension I'd like to see which is rear seat leg room. Also, how do they get such a big trunk when the NA Accord sedan only has 14.0 cubic feet? Any idea as to whether the trunk has gooseneck hinges or struts? Anyway, that three inch shorter wheelbase has to show up somewhere (although it is comparable to the Mazda6).
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    The G20 has the same drivetrain as the Sentra did, the 2.0 DOHC engine with 145hp. It takes 10 seconds to do 60mph, forget that! A 1.8T VW will blow that way, and still be cheaper.

    Infinti needs to severely rethink the G20, or can it (as they did already).
  • swsmsswsms Member Posts: 62
    I still am not convinced about the 16.2 cubic feet of trunk space even though I saw the metric measurement in print. The trunk may use struts in order to gain that extra room, but I have to see that in person. (I know the Mazda 6 uses struts though!)


    I saw on another message board where the rear leg room is about 34.3 inches (like the 4th generation Accord) which is consistent with the wheelbase being about 3 inches shorter that the NA Accord Sedan.


    Here are more pics: http://www.honda.de/np/14981.html


    Enjoy....

  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    The G-20 did have the same drivetrain as the Sentra SE-R (not the standard Sentra), but had a totally different body. Kinda like the Current G-35 and the Altima(with minor tuning diffs), or the Golf and the A4. A fancy car that shares an engine with an inexpensive car is not necessarily bad.

    I remember the G-20 taking high 8.x to 60, the automatic was slower though, and may have been about 10.
  • brizeybrizey Member Posts: 48
    ...is H/A really dividing up too small of a market into too many niches here. Everything I read about the TSX can be twisted into a compromise. The company already has a strong sedan in the mid-twenties price range in the lower marque (Honda Accord). So what do you get with a mid-twenties sedan with the higher marque (Acura)? How the heck can you market the Acura as a step up from a Honda that is priced the same and based on the same platform? Acuras should be sportier and more luxurious than a Hondas. So what can the Honda have that the Acura doesn't to justify the same price?
  • yugoboyyugoboy Member Posts: 161
    Where on earth did you get a 0-60 time of 10 second's for the g20, if you took your time to do a little research you will see that a low 8 to mid 8 second range is more accurate(not 10 seconds). If i didn't know any better, the next thing you are going to tell me is that leather is better than suede!!!! C'mon now, get your head out of your #@*%$!!!!! :) And here are the numbers!!!

    automatic and 5speed manual g20!!!


    http://en.carpoint.msn.ca/Vip/Heraud/Infiniti/G20/2002S.asp

    and the legendary 1.8turbo that would kick anyone's butt!!!! ;)

    http://en.carpoint.msn.ca/Vip/Heraud/Volkswagen/Jetta/2002S.asp

  • vinceburlappvinceburlapp Member Posts: 64
    It was shown in Paris a few days ago. Just too some "chosen" Us press people.

    See it at:

    http://www.thehollywoodextra.com


    Follow the link to "Vince's car pages"

    I sat in the car myself last week.

    Very nice indeed...

  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    the passat is based upon the a4. as good as the passat may be, it's not as sporty or as exciting. the tsx is definetly going to be more sporty and exciting than the accord. this doesn't make it better than the accord, it's just aimed at more of a niche market.

    when the integra sedan was around, it was in the same price range as the accord. i think of the tsx as an integra sedan replacement except it won't be based upon the lowly civic.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    I think anything with SX sounds weird. I have no idea why car companies use the letter X in so many of their models' names. Furthermore, I question why Acura would want to switch to an alphanumeric nomenclature when the Legend name, and car, had such a strong, albeit small, fan base.

    Acura refuses to build V-8 RWD cars in its lineup because it doesn't want to be another "Me too" in the luxury car game. But it changed its system of naming cars for that very same reason...
  • vcjumpervcjumper Member Posts: 1,110
    Sex, is there a difference?
  • seafseaf Member Posts: 339
    Naming is so Acura will have a better image. People will typically say "I have an Acura", rather than a RL or Legend. That way whoever buys an acura can say I own an acura. However I don't think this works well when the name is diluted towards the lower end of the spectrum these days though.. It used to be when people said they owned a BMW or Mercedes, they were most likely referring to a 5 or 7 series or a E300 or something like that, now they can buy a BMW Mini or Mercedes coupe for less than 25k and the manufacturer name doesn't carry the same weight with it. Acura may never get that kind of weight with its name.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    TSX: Touring Sport
    NSX: Neo Sport (I think)
    MDX: Multi Dimension

    How would TS, NS, MD sound? Better than TSX, NSX and MDX? I doubt. 'X' jazzes up the alphanumeric designation a bit, IMO.

    Earlier, Acura used 'X' to designate prototypes (CLX, TLX), and I was hoping that RSX didn't turn out into RS and MDX into MD.

    I don't care whether RL is renamed to Legend, and TL to Vigor or not, good car is all that makes sense.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    I had read that the G20 automatic takes 10 seconds to do 60mph in C&D awhile back. Also, the 2002 1.8T was upgraded and a good bit faster, with 30 additional hp.
  • ickes_mobileickes_mobile Member Posts: 675
    I don't mind alpha-numeric names so much if there is at least a rhyme or reason such as BMW, (3-Series, 5-Series, 7-Series), Merc (C-Class, E-Class, S-Class), or Audi (A2, A3, A4, A6, A8).

    The Japanese brands (Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura) seem to have this all screwed up:

    RSX = Entry level two door sports coupe
    TSX = Entry level four door sports sedan
    TL = Mid-size four door sedan
    CL = Mid-sice two door coupe
    RL = Full size luxury sedan
    NSX = Two seat exotic
    MDX = Mid-size cross over utility

    The "SX" may have something to do with "sport", but the R, T, and N don't seem to follow any type of progression. "L" may stand for "luxury", but again no progression, with the top of the line RL between CL and TL.

    They should just stick to names for their very nice cars...
  • brizeybrizey Member Posts: 48
    So I guess the TSX is basically a sportier trim line of the Accord. I guess I just believe that the Acura version of cars should be everything the Honda is and more. The VW/Audi is just another example of the same thing.

    The TL/Accord and ES300/Camry are different. The TL is bigger, has a bigger motor (until recently), and has every feature you can get on the Accord and then some. There is even a larger gap between the ES300 and the Camry. The Passat/A4 and Accord/TSX overlap almost completely. With no S4 or convertible right now, the Passat almost completly overlaps the A4 line in terms of price.

    I realize that the brand names are just marketing, but people are going to stop believing it. Acura and Audi already are probably considered by most to be the least "upscale" of the upscale brands. The extreme product line overlap is one reason, and probably the main one.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    I know what you mean. I bought a Jetta 1.8T because I thought the A4 was about the same car. The suspension deisgn is different in the A4, and the car is also better built from what I have heard. Their customer service is alot better too, and scheduled maintenance is included in the price for 4 years/50K miles. That right there might be reason enough to upgrade to the Audi.
  • ickes_mobileickes_mobile Member Posts: 675
    I think the TSX will present a substantially different character than the NA Accord. Maybe not in terms of all-out acceration, but it will probably handle better and be a little more hardedged.

    I don't ever remember the Jetta and A4 being associated with the same platform. The 1.8T engine may be common as is the transmissions, but thats about it. The Jetta/Golf/A3/TT are one platform whereas the Passat/A4/A6 are another...
  • brizeybrizey Member Posts: 48
    I realize it is not exactly the same car. I just think it confuses the branding. If good handling and a hard-edge feel are "Acura-ish", then shouldn't the S2K be an Acura (not that that subject has not already been debated to death...)?

    Look at the IS300. It too is hard-edged and handles well. But it plays in a market above every Toyota-branded car. Yes, it doesn't sell very well, but at least it is for sure a Lexus.

    Look at the RSX. Yes it is based on the Civic, but there is really no product overlap. The RSX is MIJ, a true 2+2 hatch, has a way more upscale interior, has a sportier suspension, and yes, it costs more--a lot more in terms of percentage.

    I guess I just wish the TSX was more like a TL Type-R. Maybe the same motor as the TL-S, or bumped a few hp. Sportier interior. Harder suspension. Six-speed manual. Maybe even a shorter wheel-base. ATTS. Priced about $35K. That is what the Acura brand needs. The car being rolled out as a TSX should be the Accord Type-R.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    ickes_mobile
    I don't mind alpha-numeric names so much if there is at least a rhyme or reason such as BMW
    Although Acura's naming conventions don't rhyme (at times), but they do have some meaning, such as TL: Touring Luxury. And just because European brands offer a 'progressive' naming convention doesnot make it interesting IMO. And then, is there a B-Class Benz? A huge gap between E-Class and S-Class. And then, there is the CLK versus SLK!

    But honestly, I would have preferred "SL" (Sport Luxury) over TSX.

    brizey
    I guess the TSX is basically a sportier trim line of the Accord.
    TSX is an Accord (JDM/Euro), and historically, Honda has delivered sport trims of Accord overseas (Euro-R, Type-R, SiR). TSX could be based on one of the performance tuned chassis, sportier handling than American Accord. The difference could be like that between Audi A4 (TSX) and Passat (American Accord).
    As far as differences and similarities between TL/Accord and ES300/Camry/Avalon goes, I always thought the Toyotas were much more similar than the Hondas.
    BTW, Accord still uses smaller displacement engine than TL.

    If good handling and a hard-edge feel are "Acura-ish", then shouldn't the S2K be an Acura
    Perhaps Acura should get SSX! S2K is hard-edged, but also raw, not a combination of performance and luxury. I guess, the original idea in the mid-90s was to have a two-pronged approach to roadsters. SSM was supposed to be a Honda, while Acura could have gotten Argento viva. Same chassis, same drivetrain, different styling and different attitude (high revving 220 horses of SSM versus docile, and probably refined 190 horses in Argento Viva).
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    "Look at the IS300. It too is hard-edged and handles well. But it plays in a market above every Toyota-branded car. Yes, it doesn't sell very well, but at least it is for sure a Lexus."

    brizey, I agree with your comments, except this one. The IS300 is definitely not a Lexus. When people think Lexus, they think leather and wood interiors with a smooth, yet capable ride and handling. The only thing that the IS300 possesses that might make it a true Lexus is the high price tag! Its interior is more Toyota Corolla than it is, say, a Lexus ES300.
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    ATTS is dead. The LSD (cheaper, lighter, more effective) in the CL-S 6-speed nailed the coffin shut.

    Honda will probably employ some kind of individual wheel drive system on the front axle as part of an AWD/hybrid setup, but it won't operate like ATTS.
  • brizeybrizey Member Posts: 48
    Big Motor:

    When I said bigger motor, I meant it figuratively. More power and more torque.

    Toyota vs. Honda:

    The base 2003 TL and the top of the line new Accord are almost identical in terms of feature content. In fact, I think the Accord has more!

    TL: Power = 225, Torque = 216
    Accord: Power = 240, Torque = 212

    The Accord has some new goodies that I assume will be available with the 2004 TL: Telescoping wheel, for example. Add it all up and I think I would take a loaded 2003 Accord over a base TL, even if I was thinking entry level luxury.

    The ES300 makes more power and has a much more luxurious interior than a Camry. It also has more features. The ES300 is MIJ; the Camry is MIK!

    IS300:

    I know the knocks against the IS300. Cheapo interior, boy racer tail lights, etc. But at least no-one cross-shops it with a Toyota. And its price, like it or not, keeps it out of many people's price range.

    When you buy a TL (I have a '99), you have to take a hard look at a loaded Accord (I did). When you buy an A4, you have to take a spin in a W8 Passat.
  • brizeybrizey Member Posts: 48
    I guess in summary I think that there already is too much overlap in the H/A mid-sized sedan region, and the TSX instead of an Accord Type-R just adds to the confusion.

    VW is guilty of the same with the A4/Passat deal.

    Until said overlap is gone, Acura and Audi will not have the prestige of Lexus, and heck, even Infiniti.

    This doesn't matter to many when it comes down buying a car, especially those who do careful research. But my guess is that many people who buy a Lexus would not consider an Acura. They are cross-shopping with Mercedes and BMW. Acura does not fully play in this space, most likely consciously.

    My gut says that the TSX will only steal sales from TL's (cheaper than a TL-S) and Accords (sportiest Accord). It is nice to see a company offering a new trim line, but I don't think it will bring in net sales.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    The Inifniti I35 is the same car almost as the Maxima, with a better warranty. And the G35 looks just like an Altima too.
  • brizeybrizey Member Posts: 48
    Good point on the Maxima/I35. They may be the closest of all the Japanese twins. I bet most people cross-shop those. The Maxima is really sqeezed by the I35 and Altima.

    The G35 may have lines similar to the Altima, but it only shares an engine class otherwise. I doubt many people cross-shop them. One is a FWD family car with a little extra sport. The other is a RWD ELL that is relatively affordable. The price gap is pretty large.

    The other element in the equation here is the dealer. My guess it is the Acura dealers looking for the TSX. There is a hole between the RSX and TL price-wise. The problem is that it is neatly filled by a Honda nameplate, the Accord. So what do they do? Call an Accord a TSX and sell it at Acura dealers.

    The Honda dealers don't need any Acuras. The top of the line Civic and a bottom of the line Accord are not that far apart in price.
  • ickes_mobileickes_mobile Member Posts: 675
    I don't think alpha-numeric names are "interesting", but at least the Germans are logical about it. If anyone can figure out the Japanese system, great:

    If "T" in "TL" or "TSX" stands for "Touring" fine. But, is the "R" in "RSX" the same as the "R" in "RL"? Moreover, how do "RSX", "TSX" and "NSX" relate? What about "MDX" and "DNX"?

    You have two "T_"s, two "R_"s, and one each of "M_", "N_" and possibly "D_" for prefixes. Suffixes consist of three "_SX"s, plus one "_DX" and maybe a "_NX".

    Makes perfect sense. They should just admit that they think the letters sound cool together...
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    the tsx makes perfect sense for honda. i'm not sure if you're aware of the deferences between the NA accord and euro accord. for one thing, it handles a lot better and IMO it looks a lot better too.

    the a4 is a stunning success for audi. in the way the car drives and looks you would never guess it's based upon the same platform as the passat. except for the interior, i predict the same for the tsx.

    i admit the acura name could have higher prestige, but the audi name doesn't suffer from this (especially in comparison to infinity).
This discussion has been closed.