Toyota Canada Access Pricing



  • asawasaw Member Posts: 54
    Perhaps Saturn's prices are more fair to consumers. I don't know because they have never negotiated before. With the resale value of Saturn I guess we know what kind of car it really is.

    But the fact that someone could cross the border to Ontario from Quebec and buy a Toyota vehicle for thousands less means that the prices are absolutely "inflated".

    That is my problem: "Inflated" artificial price.

    Now, if they fixed the price lower, no one would complain. But that's not how collusion usually work, right, landru2?

    Now let me ask you another no-brainer: What would happen if Toyota USA sets up an Access Pricing system all over the states? How much uproar do you think this would cause.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    Saturn prices are more "fair" to consumers? Please. Your whole argument is that negotiated prices will be lower than fixed prices. So how can a fixed Saturn price be "fair" to anyone?

    Just face it. You don't like what the price of a Toyota is and calling it "illegal" makes you feel justified in complaining about it.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    "But I thought the Access market was not good for consumers?"

    Actually, according to economic theory an Access Pricing type market is not good for anyone in the long run, because it is an inefficient market due to limits on the free movement of price. That's just theoretical, though, however true.

    As a practical matter, the buyer seeking a negotiated price can have that - by introducing a trade-in into the deal. It's just a little more complicated than a straight-forward negotiated price deal.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    that wants to sell his '02 Camry privately so he can buy something else, say, a new Maxima. Won't higher new car prices translate into a higher used car price for him? For anyone selling a used Toyota, an Access Price market should be a big benefit.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    I don't think that's necessarily true. The guy selling the '02 Camry almost certainly takes a bigger depreciation hit than a guy selling an '02 Accord, because the Camry's original price is artifically supported.
    Would he get more in an Access Pricing region? Probably so, but not necessarily so. It's better to sell under Access Pricing, but you've got out-of-region cars and other brands competing for the same used car dollars. But even if the used price is some better, if he bought there in the first place he'd be more bucks behind at the end of the day.
    Best of all is to buy in a free market and sell under Access Pricing.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    the money for Toyotas, is the price artificially supported? How come nobody believes that regular market forces (competitive makes) will work to make Toyota prices reach an equilibrium in the market?

    How can anyone possibly claim that prices are artificially too high when a product is selling in record numbers?

    Imagine if every 6 months Toyota raised their prices $500. Wouldn't a point be reached where the increased price would not make up for the lost sales? Isn't that how virtually every consumer product on earth is priced?

    Maybe it's just me, but we're not talking about people freezing to death because they can't afford to heat their homes. We are talking about perhaps buying a Honda Odyssey instead of a Toyota Sienna (Oh, the hardship!). I just can't get my head around the fact that some people feel that the government should intervene so that they won't have to pay more for that Sienna than somebody 2000 miles away. Especially while people are buying these things in record numbers already. Isn't that basic supply and demand? The supply is low relative to the demand so why would prices fall?
  • masspectormasspector Member Posts: 509
    Question. I know you are a Ford man and really have no background to answer this, but please just indulge me and speculate. Your arguements in this thread are very good and make sense, while I see the other sides points too.

    I think it was said on here that toyota started access pricing in canada in 2000. I assume that toyota sold cars in canada before 2000 under some other non access pricing system, similar to the way you sell fords and that most cars are sold in the US (where the buyer and dealer negotiate the price). My question is this, Why do you feel that toyota felt the need to move to access pricing in Canada? Please do not bring up the baloney they have on their website about having the customer focus on dealership quality, etc.

    My guess is that they did not do it to lower prices to buyers. Was there something wrong with the old way of selling cars to dealers and then letting them sell them however they wanted?

    I think in the long run asaw is just the tip of the iceberg. There are probably many more turned off customers and that number will only grow. There are plenty of other good makes, like Honda. Are there any numbers on Toyota vs Honda sells since toyota started access pricing? I can understand exactly where asaw is coming from. i would suggest to him to buy another make, perhaps a mazda or honda product, or nissan quest. I felt exactly like he did about US toyota dealers a few years back. they were arrogant and their pricing was awful, compared to other brands. But times have changed in the US. A toyota with rebates? Yes almost evey model they sell has a rebate. So that fits in nicely with your market comparison. The market would not support full msrp prices when other makes had such huge discounts. The market would not even support invoice prices, they had to start offering rebates. Only time will tell for access pricing in canada.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    How come nobody believes that regular market forces (competitive makes) will work to make Toyota prices reach an equilibrium in the market?

    I do, but then I also recognise that if Access pricing comes to Ontario I shall still buy a Toyota even at a premium, but still reasonable, price.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    Why do you feel that toyota felt the need to move to access pricing in Canada?

    Now that is a very good question. After all Toyota Canada does not stand to benefit from this in any way. In fact the reverse may be true if you believe that this may result in lower numbers of sales even though those sales will each be more profitable for the dealerships. The dealers may benefit but not Toyota Canada.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    "How can anyone possibly claim that prices are artificially too high when a product is selling in record numbers?"
    That looks like a very good point, but it assumes that acceptance of a price is validation of some sort. Well, acceptance of a price is indicative of something, just not necessarily of some sustainable or valid balance between supply and demand or value and cost. That's one of the problems with anti-competitive markets; prices become 'artificial', and at some point there's a piper to pay.

    "How come nobody believes that regular market forces (competitive makes) will work to make Toyota prices reach an equilibrium in the market?"
    That's basically a rediculous statement (no offense intended); one 'regular market force' has been constrained (not eliminated), i.e. price competition among amongst Toyota suppliers. That makes for an inefficient market. So, while there is already an equilibrium, it's an equilibrium in an inefficient market. According to market theory, that ends up costing everybody in long run. The folks hurt in the short run are the buyers.

    Inefficient markets can persist, via 'artificial' constraints; they are just costly. If your point is that one 'regular market force' (brand competition) remains, I agree. If your point is that the Access Price market is free to respond to the interplay between supply and demand, that's just not true on the face of it.

    Free marketeers have driven their markets into the ground time and time again, using market theory as justification. Thus, the need for regulation to restrain anti-competitive practices. Unfortunately, it often takes some hunky damage to bring that regulation to bear.

    "Let them eat cake."
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    Lowering prices to buyers is not the ultimate responsibilty of business. If you were to invent the best widget on the market and people were clamoring to buy it what would compel you keep the price low? Obviously, Toyota feels that they can sell more cars and make more money with Access pricing. Increasing market share would be a definite benefit for Toyota Canada as well as the dealers. The market will determine if they are right or wrong. Apparently, they have been right so far.

    Why would you ask your boss for a raise? Presumably because you believe your product (you) is worth it to your customer (your boss). If you felt you were the best at what you do wouldn't you expect to be paid the most? If your boss pays then it confirms that you are worth the money.

    There is a sizable segment of the population that decries the idea of negotiation. Many people claim that it is not fair that some people can get a better price than others. Many people complain that having commission sales people involved adds nothing positive to the process and in fact inherently induces "hooey" into the process as people try to increase their commissions. A common complaint on this board is about misleading advertising that comes about as different dealers try to compete for the same Cavalier buyer.

    Toyotas system alleviates every one of these complaints. So I suspect (and obviously Toyota Canada does) that people that make these complaints will be happy with their new system. So far, they've been right and only time will tell if they continue to be.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    Has there ever been a post here complaining that Saturn's pricing policy is unfair? Dealer competition doesn't exist there either. Is it your contention that Saturn should abandon its pricing policy for one that allows competition between dealers. From your argument, Saturn buyers are being hurt. Aren't they? Yet, Saturn buyers in general appear to be very happy with their purchase experiences. I guess they just don't know they are being hurt.
  • edle777edle777 Member Posts: 19
    I know I'm late to the party but I'd like to weigh in . . .

    I hate the Access program. I will readily admit that I hate it because it makes it harder for people like me who like to negotiate their prices to get a better price. I hate Toyota and the dealers for implementing it, but I can easily see why they did so. It really was a solid business decision on their part (more later).

    At first the program WAS illegal price-fixing as Toyota punished dealers for not adhering to the agreed prices, but as many have noted, this has been rectified as "dealers may sell for less" now.

    To answer the original poster's questions: I don't know if you'll have much luck negotiating and I don't know anyone who's been successful. As some have noted, you may have more luck getting more for your trade-in or possibly wrangling some car mats or oil changes out of them.

    But I think the main point I want to make is this: Potential Toyota customers, you are SOL.

    Read the papers, Toyota Canada is enjoying record sales while competitors (mainly domestics) sales are sliding. Dealers can charge Access prices because they can. People will still line up to buy. These are the people I'm really P.O'd at. As long as this happens, they don't need sales from "grinders" like you and me. Your chances for getting a discount on that new Sienna? Ha! Your chances are much better on a slow seller (if Toyota has any).

    to be continued . . .
  • edle777edle777 Member Posts: 19
    The Ontario/Quebec situation is interesting. You would think Quebecers close to the border would all go into Ontario to try and get a better price. I know I would.

    But if sales in Quebec are strong, then obviously that's not happening. Quebec dealers have no incentive to adjust the prices lower. If they're getting hammered, then they'll either be forced to lower prices or they'll try and wait it out until Ontario switches to Access (it's coming!).

    Regardless, there's obviously far too many people who want a Toyota and will pay what is asked. Bad news for the grinders, but not much we can do I'm afraid. Live with it. Good time to ask yourself whether you have to have THAT car. I love Toyota and have considered myself a Toyota guy for a while now, but every car has good competition. Access is a good reason to check them out.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    "From your argument, Saturn buyers are being hurt. Aren't they?"

    Sure, Saturn buyers are being hurt. Take a look at the depreciation compared to makes sold by competing dealers. And, that's after years of inter-brand competition.
    Market theory, applied honestly, explains perfectly why that is: The initial purchase price is artifically high due to the lack of price competition. The used price, set by the free interplay of supply and demand/cost and value, is lower proportionally than the used price of otherwise similar cars.

    Price competition is essential to an efficient market. (Price competition doesn't necessarily require price negotiation.) The costs of an inefficient market hurt everyone eventually.
  • asawasaw Member Posts: 54
    if I was the only one who hated the Access money grabbing scheme.

    Like I said before, any smart consumer would question the legality of this scheme and try to find ways to lessen the cost of the new car. While the sales guys would insist on the merits of a system like Access pricing.

    edle - I totally agree. Toyota is doing this because it can get away with it. They build solid cars, and people know that.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    Isn't it common knowledge that used car prices in general have been driven lower because new car prices have been made lower through incentives and rebates? For example, If a 2003 Focus gets an additional $1000 rebate doesn't that drive down the value of a 2002 Focus?

    Now you're saying that because new Saturn prices are kept too high that used Saturn prices have become too low? And by extension, that if new Saturn prices were lower that used Saturn prices would be higher?

    What about a few posts up where you suggested that buyers will do the best selling their used Toyotas in an Access Price market? How can that be if "artificially" high new car prices are the cause of lowered used car prices?
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    Exactly. They wouldn't get away with it if people stopped buying their cars.

    BTW, that is the reason that every consumer product on earth is priced the way it is. Instead of "Toyota" substitute Maytag, Timex, Levis, Pepsi, Brooks Brothers, Sony, etc.

    Yes, it's true. They are all priced where they are because they can get away with it. But so what?
  • jratcliffejratcliffe Member Posts: 233
    My guess is that the total effect of Access Pricing is pretty neutral - some folks who would have gotten a better deal paid more, and some folks who wouldn't have negotiated a good deal paid less with Access than they would have on their own.

    Now that 'yoda can't actually enforce the cartel, I'm curious how long it will survive. Cartels tend to break down through cheating. If it does, it'll probably happen through trades first - much harder to catch cheating there than in actual purchase prices.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    "Now you're saying that because new Saturn prices are kept too high that used Saturn prices have become too low? And by extension, that if new Saturn prices were lower that used Saturn prices would be higher?"

    No, no, no, LOL. That isn't what I was saying, and I dunno how you got that.
    I was saying that
    new Saturn prices are 'too high', due to the lack of intra-brand price competition or some other effective means of valuation
    that used prices are set in a free market by supply and demand/cost and value forces
    and that the result is a depreciation curve worse than other comparable cars (even Foci, LOL).
    The bottom line is that if a car's over-priced to begin with (by any process, Access Pricing or some other), that shows up as higher depreciation (though that's not the only cause of high depreciation).

    (Me thinks you just want to argue.)
  • asawasaw Member Posts: 54
    Now imagine if Toyota USA rolled out Access Pricing across the US, I really wonder what the consequences might be.

    The Department of Commerce might be all over Toyota USA in no time once they get all the complaints from potential Toyota customers.

    Don't tell me this won't happen, because I'll bet ya it will. That's why they are not doing it in the US. Imagine losing sales in the largest economy in the world.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    I wonder if the U.S. has laws that would make Toyota Canada's system illegal? Of course, I see that Edmunds lists the TMV for the Sienna at MSRP so I don't know if it would cost any more than it does now.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    what happens if 'Yoda tries Access Pricing here in the US. I don't have the law background enough to know if it's legally doable. 'They' say the Scion is 'one priced', though; and I've no clue how that's going.

    This discussion has gotten me to thinking about 'what next' with Access Pricing.
    If Access Prices hold well above US TMV (which it appears they are, for now at least), I wonder how long it'll be before 'Yoda or 'Yoda Canada raises Canadian invoice prices?
  • asawasaw Member Posts: 54
    The reason I started this discussion is to get people thinking (and steamed) about predatory pricing policies from car manufacturers and dealers.

    Any time we sit back and relax, while such things go on, is not good for the consumers. Inefficient market, that's what the economists say. Probably the govt won't do anything about it, if it's just a couple of manufacturers. However, if say GM and/or Ford and/or Honda ever adopt something like this in Canada, it'll probably raise some eyebrows.

    Sure, we might not be able to negotiate with Toyota, but I'm not going to stay quiet. If more and more people make a fuss, it might just make a difference.

    I dare you Toyota to try this in the US of A, on a wide scale, not just on new lines of cars like Scion.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    mumbo-jumbo, I still don't see how predatory is the right description when there are many, many competitors for every product Toyota sells. That idea would only apply if Toyotas were the only cars on the market. There is no monopoly when there are competitors (duh :^) ).

    Imagine if every car company became like Saturn tomorrow. There would be no more worries about the negotiating rigamarole that so many people don't like. No one would have to worry that their neighbor got a better deal. Salespeople could actually sell the product rather than the price. Different car models would all be priced strictly according to what the market thinks they are worth compared to their competitors. Is it realistic to think that Kia could arbitrarily increase the price of its cars by $2000 and still sell them? Of course not. The price of every car will be at the exact level that the market determines it is worth. That sounds like a very efficient market to me.

    Now, if every car manufacturer conspired to raise their prices in lock-step then there would be a case for price-fixing. If all manufacturers acted as one entity then they would effectively form a monopoly and that would require legal intervention.

    I agree 100% that if you don't like a products price that you should make a fuss. The time-honoured way of doing that is to buy from a competitor instead.
  • larrychowlarrychow Member Posts: 13
    I am getting my 2004 LE Sienna thru Quinella Auto Brokers 1-800-307-4808. He is based in BC. I have known him for 23yrs, and know many friends ( including brother) that went thru him. His name is Robert Montgomery. I will be getting the vehicle for less than Access pricing which is currently $41639 (including taxes). I checked around 4 dealers in the Greater Vancouver area and all prices were the same and none would stray from access pricing. I checked another broker that I have dealt with in the past and they weren't able to get me one below access pricing. If you contact him.. tell him my name and he will remember me.
  • asawasaw Member Posts: 54
    Thank you very much for the info.

    I too am thinking seriously about purchasing the Sienna LE.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    The very fact that you are buying through a broker (but from a dealer ultimately) proves that Toyota is not doing anything illegal. The dealer is able and willing to sell for less than the Access Toyota price.
  • tccarttccart Member Posts: 5
    The problem I have with Access pricing is the very small amount taken off of the MSRP. 0.7% here in Alberta, and 0.3% in BC. On a 2004 Sienna LE, that works out to a discount of about $100 to $250 on an MSRP of $34,750.

    Funny thing is that I would feel better about getting $1,250 off of a $35,750 MSRP than $250 off of $34,750. Human nature, I guess.

    I will be trying to buy a 2004 Sienna LE in the next few weeks. I am expecting to get the Access 'take it or leave it' price. Perhaps they will give me a good price on a trade-in.

    larrychow, thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, Robert could only deliver to Vancouver, and didn't know of any brokers in Alberta.
  • larrychowlarrychow Member Posts: 13
    The price that I posted here was OTD for a Arctic Frost Pearl LE 7.
    Hey,, BC is Alberta's neighbour and this will justify a trip to the coast :).
    My van was suppose to be delivered on Friday Sep 19th, but has been delayed as they have to replace the gas tank. Since this was a factory order 6 weeks ago I'm suprised it didn't have the new tank.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    What was the price that the broker gave you compared to the Access price? And what was the broker's fee?
  • larrychowlarrychow Member Posts: 13
    If you are interested in how much you will save, I advise you to contact him directly. He will save you $$. This is an excellent way to to purchase a vehicle as there is no hassle/pressure to purchase.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    His agent?

    You bought a Sienna from the guy but can't tell us how much less than Access price you got it for? Nor can you tell us what he charged you? But you have no problem telling us his name and his phone number?

    Something stinks here.
  • larrychowlarrychow Member Posts: 13
    Whats seems to be the problem? If you want to know the price for a 2004 Sienna, aren't u able to just pick up the phone and call?? Bottom line is can he save you money on a Sienna. Don't mention that I gave you his phone number as it doesn't affect me at all.
    You have the freedom to go to any dealer or broker to compare prices on any vehicle as this is a free market and decide if you want to buy a vehicle or not.
    I'm happy on the price that I am paying for the vehicle as he saved me $$ compared to access prices. What I'm not happy is that any vehicle generally depreciates continually every year especially in the 1st few years , not an investment that grows in value with time.
  • tccarttccart Member Posts: 5
    I took the 3 minutes to phone larrychow's broker contact, so I can tell you that nothing 'stinks' here. Bottom line is that Robert serves the Vancouver market only, and the potential savings aren't enough to make it worthwhile, except for those living near Vancouver.

    Now if anyone knows of a broker in Alberta .....
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    You already posted what the Access price was. Why would I need to look it up again? What's stopping you from saying you are getting it for $100/$300/$1000 less than the Access price? You come onto this forum and solicit business by giving out the guy's name and phone number but then have nothing to say beyond "he'll save you $$"? Something definitely stinks. And it's not my leftover tuna sandwich.

    tccart, was Robert's middle name Larry by chance? ;^)
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    A car dealer after a straight price from a buyer.
  • larrychowlarrychow Member Posts: 13
    Whats stopping you from contacting him directly and hearing 1st hand as to what he can save you? Just go buy one directly from a dealer and then you won't have the problem of contacting a broker.
    If it bothers you so much that I don't let you know how much I saved,, it must really bother you to even consider spending this much $$ on a vehicle and have the depreciation in the 1st yr be more than what you saved..
    I don't eat tuna sandwiches so it must be my smelly feet that stink :)...

    Dealers are in business to charge as much $$ as the market can bear but yet stay in business so its in their right not to sell less than MSRP. The 4 dealers that I contacted directly lost my business (profit) and a broker (ultimately a dealer) financially gained from my business.

    PS... Van is for my wife to drive my family and friends around...
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    As someone thinking of buying a Sienna what do you think of this?

    After a couple of years hanging around here I have a pretty good idea about the kinds of things that consumers say and the kinds of things that dealers say. I.e. consumers do not post the names and phone numbers of people they recommend; Consumers do not brag about their savings and then refuse to disclose these so-called savings; Consumers do not defend a dealer's right to sell for MSRP.

    If, as you say, it doesn't affect you at all, why the refusal to help your fellow consumers by providing information on an anonymous chat board?

    IMO, you actually are this broker or you work for him.
  • cdnhighwaymancdnhighwayman Member Posts: 2
    I am really impressed to see the dialogue exchange here and the number of interesting points raised. For the record, I am a consumer who is interested in Toyota products, specifically the '04 Sienna. Having been out of the market for a vehicle for the last 3 years, I was surprised to discover the Access Toyota pricing system had been voted on and accepted by the all of the Toyota dealers (in Alberta in my case) in the not too distant past.

    My initial reactions on the Access program were very similar to those raised by others - price fixing, collusion, whatever you want to call it. Am I thrilled about all of the Alberta Toyota dealers electronically submitting their selling price so close to MSRP its almost a joke to even bother stating a price other than MSRP? Of course not! All three of my previous new car purchases (Ford, Dodge and Chevrolet) involved the negotiating dance, and in all three deals I felt good about getting thousands knocked off MSRP. I came away from the purchase experiences very happy that I got the vehicle I wanted and at a price significantly lower than MSRP.

    The reality is that Toyota is making a very good product these days, and Toyota Canada and their dealer network obviously know it in the form of sales volume. Toyota also knows that they have set a benchmark for quality and performance that other manufacturers look towards. Knowing all this of course, Toyota Canada's goal, like any for-profit business in a competitive environment, is likely to continue to outperform competition and sell more product, at the highest profit margin the market will bear. They need to support their dealer network with the latest marketing tools necessary to sell their product in record numbers. What better marketing program then to give the customer one common price for your geographical region, so no one else gets a better price than you! It certainly hasn’t caused a drop in sales as the consumer in Access Toyota areas appear to be more than willing to plunk down their hard earned cash on Toyota products at the Access pricing set by the local dealers. Are consumers happy about paying Access pricing and only saving peanuts off MSRP? I would guess not. But I am sure the disappointment is short lived as the long term satisfaction from their Toyota will outweigh the initial disappointment on the pricing.

    The great thing about a competitive market is that there are choices out there. Take the Sienna minivan, if one feels the Access price is totally unreasonable, there is Honda's Odyssey, Nissan's Quest, Ford's Freestar as alternative choices, available at a competitive price. Its not as if the Toyota has a monopoly on the market for minivans and we have no other choice.

    The problem comes for some people when, for example, they want nothing else but a Toyota. They don’t really want the alternatives offered by Honda, Nissan, Mazda, etc (I am likely in that boat right now). They have made up in their own minds after careful and thoughtful research that Toyota offers the best product, and that is the only vehicle they want!

    When the time comes, I know I will be facing a difficult decision. Do I really want the Sienna that badly to fork over the Access price requested by the local Toyota dealers? Do I decide there is no way that I am going to cave in to my local Toyota dealer and pay their outrageous Access price they want? Do I go to my second choice, the Honda Odyssey, a great vehicle, but a choice I really truly don't really want, given that I concluded Sienna was the best vehicle in my mind?

    Bottom line, like it or not, we do have a choice in the matter. Some of us are obviously not happy about this Access pricing program. But the local Toyota dealers are operating in a competitive market and as such will price themselves at the level the market will bear. If we don’t like the price, we can communicate this dissatisfaction to our local Toyota dealers and we can negotiate with and give our money to Honda or Nissan or whoever else. The challenge some of us will face will be if we can get over the psychological impact of settling with second or third best, after resolving Toyota as first best.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    I agree with what you have written. What it boils down to is this; is the Toyota product in any given segment worth a (roughly) 5% premium over say the equivalent Honda product? For me the answer is yes, but should that premium become, say, 20% then the answer would be less certain. It's quite simply supply and demand at work and although I don't like to pay more for a product than I have to I accept Toyota's motives and if I were a Toyota shareholder I would applaud them.
  • dbgindydbgindy Member Posts: 351
    Great post right on the money.

    grand- sums it up very well!
  • larrychowlarrychow Member Posts: 13
    Your post is excellently worded and very truthful. It is an open market and we are all free to walk away from the access price.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    If you need salve for 'the psychological impact of settling with second or third best', think depreciation.

    As nicely worded as it is, there's a logical flaw in cdnhighwayman's argument. It's a 'competitive market' argument in favor of less competition.

    Sienna's and Oddy's sell pretty close to sticker even without price fixing. What happens when you start thinking Camry vs. Accord, 'Rolla vs. Civic, etc?
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    I use an Excel spreadsheet to evaluate the total cost of ownership of the vehicle that I buy. It takes into account all costs that I can anticipate and reflects the way that I use a car. It showed that from a cost point of view that of all the cars I was considering the Corolla was the most cost-effective. I just dusted it off again and plugged current numbers into it to determine how much I could pay for a Corolla before it became more costly, over it's projected lifetime in my hands, than my second choice vehicle. The answer was that I could afford to pay $300 below MSRP before it would become more costly to operate than my second choice. This figure is about $200 less than Toyota's Access price. Therefore if I paid Toyota's Access price the cost to me over my second choice vehicle would be about $40 per year or less than 1% of the total annual cost - not worth worrying about. This does not even take into account the fact that the Corolla was my first choice because it meets my needs best, I would surely be prepared to pay a premium for that.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Thanks. That's the kind of info I was thinking about.
    I just pulled up TCO's on a 'Rolla CE vs. a Civic EX under the free price system here in the states. Even with the 'Rolla selling $1K+ under sticker, it's about $150 per year more costly. Add in Access pricing, it oughta come out over $300/year more costly.
    Lots of variables, though.

    It's true that most/all Toyotas are selling within $200 of sticker under Access pricing? Yeow! For me, not much of Toyota fan by taste in the 1st place, that would keep me off the Toyota lots altogether.
  • asawasaw Member Posts: 54
    I think it's great there are brokers we can go to, instead of just sticking with Access pricing.

    As for why Larry won't divulge his final price, your guess is as good as mine. Maybe personal reasons I guess? I'll find out when I call the broker(s), won't I.

    cdnhighwayman - I guess we all agree that Toyota makes good products, which is why they can get away with this Access scheme, and still keep making a profit.

    Now (I know I'm being insistent), does Toyota dare to roll this Access pricing in the US? I think not. Perhaps American consumers are not as tolerant as Canadian consumers. I still think it's an illegal scheme, no matter what anyone says.

    Who knows? Maybe when the time comes, the Sienna might not look as attractive anymore (especially when the new Ody arrives). We are all in the market to get the best price possible when purchasing something. If not, we'll get pissed (like myself with this Access scheme), or we'll buy other manufacturers.
  • cdnhighwaymancdnhighwayman Member Posts: 2
    I am also not happy with this program and I can completely understand where you are coming from about wanting to get the best price possible. But hat's off to Toyota Canada with this brilliant marketing scheme to maintain high profit margins. It appears that the program is not hurting them in provinces where it has been implemented, and so I don't see any end in sight. The government watchdog has apparently concluded the program is legal, subject to the modifications requested, and if you want a Toyota product bad enough in Access Toyota provinces, you have to agree to purchase by their rules, unless of course you decide to buy in Ontario, where for now they are operating under the old system.

    Maybe as you suggest, Honda's retooling of the Odyssey will challenge Toyota for minivan supremacy, giving us an even better alternative, purchased under a negotiated pricing system.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    the focus on the Sienna? It's the one 'Yoda, apparently, Access priced close to a free market price.
    TMV here is sticker. The Access price is a bargain in comparison.
    The rip off is on 'Rolla's, Camry's, etc., where the Access price is hundreds higher than a market set price.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    Of course you assume the market in Canada is exactly the same as in the U.S. What with currency exchanges and different pricing strategies, Edmunds U.S. TMV isn't directly comparable to the Canadian market.

    Why would Toyota sell any Corollas if they were priced too high versus Civics, Focus', Proteges, etc.? Toyota is selling tons of Corollas and Camrys. Obviously, the market feels they are worth the price.
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