Toyota Canada Access Pricing



  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    That's the puzzle, to me.

    So, how about some real data?
  • prodigalsunprodigalsun Member Posts: 213
    You're talking like Canada is a different country or something! That's just crazy talk.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    For a Corolla CE in it's most popular configuration MSRP is $18420, Access price in British Columbia (BC) is $18396, in Quebec (QC) it is $18378. For a Sienna CE FWD 7 Passenger MSRP is $30000, Access price in BC is $29892, in QC it is $29794.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    These are $CAD? And a typical Canadian Corolla CE is what, a 130 hp auto with ABS, AC, CD, mats?
    If that's the case, Canadian sticker is already approx at US invoice; and Access price is about invoice - $50 -- in $USD.
    The Sienna CE FWD 7 with no options invoices in the US at $28K CAD, stickers at $31.1K CAD, and TMV's at $31.1K CAD (converted from $USD).
    That's very interesting. It looks like MSRP's are lower in Canada, which I expected but not to the degree that they are, and Access prices are already well under US TMV.

    So, another question - What's the data on the Canadian equivalent to a US Civic LX sedan with auto (115 hp, AC, no ABS, CD)?

    And, another question - Is it Ontario that is the one province without Access pricing?

    And a final question - To what do you attribute the spread between 'Yoda MSRP's in Canada and the US? The US distributer system, maybe?
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207

    The typical Corolla I was referring to has A/C, Auto, Keyless entry/power door locks and yes, mats. It does not have ABS, even as an option. You can order ABS as part of an option package on the Corolla S and it comes as standard on the Corolla LE.

    A Honda Civic LX Auto costs C$20500 and only comes with ABS.

    The only provinces that I know of with Access pricing are British Columbia, Alberta, Manitoba and parts of Quebec. As far as I know the others do not yet have Access pricing.

    Canadians have less disposable income and taxation is generally higher here than in the US on auto sales. These factors make it necessary for manufacturers to offer cars at lower prices in Canada than in the US.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    very much.

    I checked the links and used a currency exchange rate converter. Converted to a monetary standard, it seems that Canadian sticker is awfully close to US TMV in the case of Honda; and Toyota Access pricing is approx at US invoice.

    This is very interesting to me.
    1) No wonder Access Pricing has been accepted so well!
    2) Edmunds TMV seems to represent value pretty well.
    3) There's less marketing hooey in the Canadian market place. (?)

    All of this leads me to another question. Does the Canadian system provide for 'holdback' like the US system does?
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    I'd say there is more marketing "hooey" in Canada. We do not have the equivalent of TMV, we do not have access to invoice prices (at least not for free). The Canadian market does have holdback though the rates may differ from the US.
    I would not say that the Access pricing system has been accepted well, just that it is unavoidable in certain parts of the country.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    What's your take on the relationship between the actual cost of production, distribution, etc. and MSRP in the Canadian market? MSRP is considerably lower there once the exchange rate is accounted for.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    A few months old but suggests that Toyota sales aren't hurting in Canada.
  • masspectormasspector Member Posts: 509
    "1) No wonder Access Pricing has been accepted so well!"

    I don't know if I would go so far as saying that. Unfortunately you are using an American mindset to analyze this. You have to use a Canadian mindset. Remember that before Access pricing that Canadians could negotiate hundreds or thousands off of MSRP(Canadian). So if MSRP(Canadian) is close to invoice(US), Canadians before were saving thousands below US invoice prices. Acess pricing may look like a good deal to an american say on a Sienna, but to a canadian it is thousands more than the same deal they could have gotten on a sienna before access pricing was started.

    This is why a lot of US buyers were going to Canada to buy cars. Even hot sellers at MSRP in Canada were like paying invoice in the US, and regular buys were thousands less than in the US. But that opens up a whole nother can of worms....See related topic on gray market imports.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Well, I'm sure I don't have a Canadian's outlook on this; but . . . .
    to echo Landru, if the cars are selling at Access price, something's going on right.

    I did some poking around, and the impression that Canadian MSRP is universally lower than US just isn't so. CAD$ MSRP on my car (a Honda), for example, is about $100 higher when converted to USD$, which I think reflects exchange rate fluctuation.

    So what's going on?
    I don't know for sure. Comparably equiped Yoda's, however, seem to be Access priced at or below US TMV in constant dollars.
    It's possible that 'Yoda Canada is doing a very un-car-biz-like thing - setting no-haggle prices very close to fair market value and eliminating a lot of sales hooey. Sorta looks that way to me.

    BTW, I checked out Saturn and Scion, the two no-haggle sales process cars in the US. Scion retail is approx invoice + 5%, where Saturn retail is approx invoice + 8%.
    Could it be that 'Yoda Japan is trying to leave some of the stupid North American price marketing behind?

    It's all very interesting to me. As a Canadian buyer, I'd be suspicious of Access pricing; BUT
    it just could be the beginning of something very good - cars list priced at the real cost of production + a reasonable profit margin.
  • leknlekn Member Posts: 78
    rivertown wrote:
    " It's possible that 'Yoda Canada is doing a very un-car-biz-like thing - setting no-haggle prices very close to fair market value and eliminating a lot of sales hooey. Sorta looks that way to me."

    Unfortunately, that's not true. Otherwise, how can you explain that the "fair market value" is thousand(s) less in Ontario than the Access price? The MSRP/invoice price has not changed. So the main effect of the Access price is the fat dealer margins.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    If, in fact, 'the "fair market value" is thousand(s) less in Ontario than the Access price', I'd have to agree with you. Is there any hard data that the average price in Ontario is thousand(s) less than the Access price?
  • leknlekn Member Posts: 78
    No on paper hard data, just my friends' and my own experience (and reports by other users in forums) in negotiating the price of 04 Sienna with various dealers in Toronto, Ontario. 4-5% off MSRP is quite typical without hard negotiations; this compared with the Access pricing's pathetic C$100 to C$200 dollars off MSRP(as of today).
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    I can't say for sure, given the standard equpiment variance, but it looks to me like your Access price is very close to US TMV. Since there's a lot of new model hype, both are close to MSRP (US) and, thus, a good negotiator should be able to get a discount when negotiation is possible (non-Access price).
    Give the closeness to TMV, it's hard to say Access price is out of line with 'true market'.
    When I looked at Carolla numbers, the relationship to TMV seemed even better under Access; and MSRP was lower than in the US, close to US invoice if I remember right.
    I suspect 'fat dealer margins' is an over-simplification.
    The hot new model thing with the Sienna is an issue, too. Wanna run the numbers on a Tacoma?
  • masspectormasspector Member Posts: 509
    please read the related thread about gray market imports. This other thread gives alot of background info and discusses alot of the issues that are now cropping up in this thread.

    traditionally canadian msrp is pretty close to US invoice prices. car makers just price their product lower in canada. they say it is because of all the taxes they pay and a lower amount of take home pay, etc. with other makes and with toyota before access pricing the canadian buyer could and does negotiate just like they do here in the US. So most buyers can get hundreds or thousands (CDN) less than MSRP(CDN). This is just like in the US. if the car is a hot seller, it is harder to negotiate off msrp, if it is a dog, the price quickly plummets. So fair market value in canada is far lower than tmv or invoice in the US.

    By saying that access pricing appears to be fair market value because it is close to US TMV or invoice is comparing apples and oranges. Canadians traditionally pay less than their american counterparts for the exact same vehicle, after conversion to a std currency.

    A better comparison is to see what toyotas sold for in Canada ,average, before access pricing and what they sell for now with access pricing. I bet that data would be very hard to find and I am also pretty willing to bet that the access price is higher than the old price. So I have to go with lekn here.

    No one has yet given a good explanation of why toyota went to access pricing except for the "hooey" off of their website. Until canadians stop buying toyotas in significant numbers, then access pricing will stay. Personally I would exclude toyota based on this one fact, even if they had the best car in the world. I did this for a while in the US based on toyotas overly high prices in the past and poor dealer attitude. Their are plenty of other good alternatives.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    I really oughta read that thread, looks like.

    The only Canadian non-'Yoda I've checked was for the model I own, a Honda Si. MSRP was the same as US, CAD$ converted to USD$. So, I have been having trouble getting the gripe.

    If there is this kind of price spread Access-nonAccess, that would put me off Toyota, too. I'm already put off pretty much by the distributer mark-up and option package hooey US 'Yoda buyers face.

    I do understand there's a difference 'tween the two markets, having lived near the border as a teen and then again in my mid-20's. What I found then was that consumer goods indeed had cheaper list prices in Canada - with a corresponding drop in finish detail and/or manufacturing complexity. The old 'you get what you pay for' thing, with the Canadian market suiting my taste better by emphasizing durability, quality materials, and price over finish glitz.

    The market forces you and Grand mention (taxes and income) do affect price from the demand side. There's a limit, though, on price elasticity; and with cars, the cost of production and distribution presents a huge limit on downside movement. Getting good data seems to be very tough, which provides a great medium for hooey cultivation - by folks on all sides of the argument.
    So, all in all I've been unconviced that Access pricing represents a hijacking of the market, that in spite of my overweening skepticism for car dealers. I do have a profound respect for market theory, applied with intellectual honesty, however; and what I'd like to see are some more real life numbers with comparisons between comparable cars. So far, what I've seen is comparable cars selling for approximately the same prices in both markets with Toyota MSRP and discounts being jacked up in the US.

    The gray market thread is in which forum?
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    There is no point in comparing the US market with the Canadian market in this case. A more valid comparison is the Ontario and other non-Access pricing Canadian markets (probably 3-5% below MSRP on average) and Access pricing markets ($100-$300 below MSRP).
  • asawasaw Member Posts: 54
    makes more sense if you narrow it down to dealers who implement Access pricing and those who don't under the same economic circumstances (income level, taxation level, currency, etc).

    So if a customer can buy a vehicle at $X dollars in Quebec (Access) while another across the border in Ontario (non-Access) can buy the same exact model for $X - 1000 dollars, this is clearly a "fat dealer margin" at work here.

    What I would like to see is for Toyota to have both Access and non-Access dealers in each province, so consumers can choose which to deal with. Here in British Columbia, all the dealers are Access, and there's no way they are willing to negotiate (spoken to 3 dealers). One of the sales person even told me that if they do, unfavorable circumstances might befall them, like "OK, you can go work for Honda now, after you are done this deal." Which I think is ridiculous.

    As for different prices in Canada compared to the States, well the prices in Canada for cars have always been cheaper. Don't ask me why, but I would have to think that on average Canadians make less than Americans (even before you factor in the exchange). So a Toyota sold under Access which is same price as US TMV doesn't mean a whole lot to Canadians who are used to buying prices equivalent to US invoice.

    I guess the only way Access dealers can negotiate is their finance and lease rate. I most recently saw an ad for 1.9% financing on Siennas. Just wait till the '05 Odyssey comes out next year.
  • masspectormasspector Member Posts: 509
    kcram "Gray Area" Sep 4, 2002 6:02pm

    It has over 200 posts, but some good reading.

    If you search for "gray" you will see two other threads with some posts that the hosts made for news articles relating to this area. Hope this helps some.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    So, the Access-nonAccess price spread is 'probably' $900-$1500 CAD$ on a Sienna, on average, and $450-$750 on a 'Rolla?

    Though that's certainly a noticeable gouge, my take is that's about the size of the bite US distributors take without many folks noticing at all.

    The point in comparing US and Canadian market prices, for me, is to get a read on where, how, and how much profit gouging takes place. For the life of me, I can't see any reason that build/distribution costs should be significantly different between our markets. Overall, average selling prices appear marginally lower in Canada with dealers getting a proportionally larger bite from a slightly smaller profit pie.

    I hope it doesn't look like I'm defending Access pricing. I'm trying to understand the market dynamics. FWIW, it looks to me like regional monopoly (distributors) in the US costs consumers more than Access pricing in Canada. Neither is good, IMO; and both reveal fundamental intellectual dishonesty when suppliers talk about 'the market'.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    I'll look!
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Another avenue for negotiating under Access price conditions is to negotiate trade-in value.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Mass, I read chunks of the grey market thread. Thanks, again. 'Market splitting' with lower manufacturer-to-retail-outlet prices seems to be part of the story, with some makes anyhow.

    Now, I'm curious about invoice price and holdback rate differences between the US and Canada on 'Yodas
    and about which makes have larger/smaller across the border contant dollar spreads.

    I'd be a believer that Access pricing supports 'artificially' high 'Yoda prices with some hard data on invoice prices.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    There are some major differences in the cost structure for Canadian vs. American dealers. FWIW, in the arena that I am most familiar with, Ford Canada's holdback is 2% of invoice while Edmunds says that holdback in the U.S. is 3% of MSRP. That's a big difference.
  • masspectormasspector Member Posts: 509
    Do you think for some reason that it costs canadian dealers less to floorplan their cars than US dealers? You are right that is a big difference.

    Not to get off topic, but I heard a news story on the radio the other day and this gray market stuff is getting into the spotlight again over prescription drugs. In the US there is a big deal about people, mostly seniors, getting drugs from canada. Alot of the same arguments are coming up about why the exact same drugs cost so much less in canada. The drug companies say it is because of canadian price controls, and that they can only make a profit in the US. The point was also made that the US is the only western country that allows drug manufacturers to advertise directly to the public. if these advertising costs were gone, then drug prices could be lowered in the US.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Landru, Edmunds says US Blue Oval dealers get 4.25% holdback. Another big difference between the two markets.

    The lack of transparency makes this whole thing tough to figure.
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    away for the "American" (non-Access) way of buying Toyotas:

    sonjaab "What Brand has the Best Customer Satisfaction with its Car Dealerships?" Sep 30, 2003 7:57pm

    Is this the set-up that Toyota dare not change?
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    'Yoda could fix the rep prob with
    Access Pricing, ala Saturn
    make their salesguys hang with the classy guys at the Caddy store.
  • asawasaw Member Posts: 54
  • woodytwowoodytwo Member Posts: 42
    I purchased a 04 sienna le 7 passenger awd at $1750 under msrp in Ontario. I checked several dealers across Canada and the access price for the same vehicle is $250 under msrp. This is a rip off with all due respect to those of you who think that access pricing is fair, good or otherwise. Btw the negotiating took all of 20 minutes.

    Best advice to other Canadians in other provinces is try a mini vacation in Ontario and drive back with your sienna. Better price and you got some additional value.
  • asawasaw Member Posts: 54
    I can't imagine why anybody would think it's not when you can get the Sienna for so much cheaper in Ontario, while we folks here in BC can't.

    You know, if Alberta does not have Access pricing, I really won't mind driving there from Vancouver to purchase myself a nice Sienna LE. Ontario is a bit too far for me.
  • pat3pat3 Member Posts: 1
    Could someone tell me where I could get this information for Canadian dealerships...
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    Hi pat3. You should be able to find out more information on Canadian dealer invoice pricing in the following discussions:

    guizmo "Canadian Car Buying (for Canadian Consumers)" Feb 4, 1998 6:10pm

    luck11 "CANADIAN INVOICE PRICES" Oct 31, 2001 10:11am

    Equestr99 "Canadian Invoice Price" Aug 14, 1998 5:46pm

    Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards
  • weaselinsuitweaselinsuit Member Posts: 78
    You have a number of individuals getting together to set the price for various vehicles. Granted it sounds, based upon the description of the method I have read here, that they're not getting together in a smoke filled room and saying this will be the price, but it's close. All the dealers who are submitting their estimate of what the price would be are certainly not going to submit low prices. In a truly free market economy, you wouldn't have this kind of tool or collaboration. Not that we have a perfect market economy in any event.

    Anyway, enough ideology. Has anyone in Access pricing territory, without using a broker, been able to get a price for a Sienna (or other model) for lower than the Access Price? Are dealers more willing to deal, now that some of the other competitors options are available, or are they still standing firm and smiling as you try to bargain?
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ...... ** In a truly free market economy, you wouldn't have this kind of tool or collaboration. Not that we have a perfect market economy in any event **

                Hmmm, obviously you haven't bought any jewelry, boats, furniture, Pella windows, grilles or any watches lately .l.o.l...

  • asawasaw Member Posts: 54
    I phoned the auto broker suggested on this board, but he told me there's nothing he can do. Everybody in BC has to pay the Access Price. All he can offer is some rust proofing package that I don't need.

    So here I go, and will pick up my brand new Sienna LE this Friday.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    I have heard rumours that Access Pricing is coming to Ontario in June? Can anyone confirm this?
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    The following is a slightly edited post that was recently made by another community member:

    "#143 of 143 Re: Access Pricing coming to Ontario? [grandtotal #142] by tberlea Jun 15, 2004 (2:57 pm)
    That was true until last Friday when all Toyota dealers got an email from Head office........Access Pricing is Dead!!!!

    Toyota just got slapped with a HUGE fine in South Africa for doing the exact same thing and I guess they figured that they better back off quietly before the stuff really hits the fan here!!!!"

    Smart Shoppers Message Board
  • weaselinsuitweaselinsuit Member Posts: 78
    There was an article in the business section of today's Globe & Mail that indicated that Access pricing was being phased out. The article indicates that on some vehicles there was close to a $5K difference in price between Access areas and non-Access areas, the Access areas being higher. There were also a couple class action suits pending, though I don't think the one in B.C. had been certified yet. I do know Toyota had entered into a settlement with the Competition Bureau over it.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    Access Pricing is still on Toyota Canada's website.
  • weaselinsuitweaselinsuit Member Posts: 78
    especially if they're technologically challenged like myself. You can find the article on the Globe website if you search toyota under the business section. I'd post the link myself but there's that technological challenged thing again....
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    Here is a link to the article for those of you who are interested: Toyota Kills No-Haggle Sales Price Strategy.

    Smart Shoppers Message Board
  • weaselinsuitweaselinsuit Member Posts: 78
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    Well, Edmunds makes it pretty easy for you. Simply browse to the page you want to paste a link for, copy the address of that page from the browser's address bar (that is mark the address and then press Control and C) and then paste the address into your message like this!vuserName=w- easelinsuit Edmunds takes care of all the HTML that you need.
  • kamryncrazieskamryncrazies Member Posts: 2
    I just bought a New Hyundai in Bangor Maine. I did almost everything over the phone. THe salesperson told me they are selling a ton of cars to canadians right now. I have to go with the Hyundai because you cant buy a Toyota easy. But after doing my research I think they Hyundai is a better deal. With the Toyota your paying a lot for the name. THE Hyundai I bought has a better warranty, more options and was thousands cheeper. I would highly recommend a Hyundai and shppinging in Maine. The border was easy and I save thousands. My friend is buying a Subaru from the same dealer this weekend. But she's going to look at a Hyundai also.

  • mchuimchui Member Posts: 2
    Access pricing was made because of people like you.
  • petlpetl Member Posts: 610
    Your reply not only doesn't make any sense, it's 4 years too late. Access Pricing was dropped because it was stupid and unlawful. A Manufacturer cannot negotiate a price (off MSRP) for the consumer. I'm happy Toyota was sued over the issue. That's why it no longer exist.
  • mchuimchui Member Posts: 2
    I think you should do more research before you reply! If you have done some research, you will know that trying to buy a toyota lower than MSRP in other province is still not possible today and people are still buying and makes toyota #1 manufacture in the North America. Yes you r right about the access pricing is no longer exist but people are still enjoying the process of buying a toyota with no haggle no hassel procedure. It does not exist in ontario doesn't mean that does not exist anywhere! I think you should get out of your cave and see the world a little more.
  • petlpetl Member Posts: 610
    I'll repeat. You had replied to a post that was posted in 2004. This is a dead issue. Open the link in post number 148 (posted by the Host). If people want to buy a Toyota vehicle without haggling or hassle, that is their choice. MSRP is not Access Pricing. If a dealer does not wish to negotiate, try another. Keep in mind, the profit margin for some vehicles is not high. Also, it may be difficult to negotiate for newer and/or popular models. Supply and demand will dictate how much a Dealer is willing to move on the MSRP.

    Good Luck, from outside the cave, in the real world.
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