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Comments
As for ball joints, well when I bought my '67 Catalina, it needed ball joints and engine mounts. I bought the parts myself. Forget how much, but I do remember it was cheaper to just buy the whole front-end rebuild kit instead of 4 ball joints. I think the labor to do the ball joints and engine mounts was about $500, and that was almost 9 years ago! So figure that whoever buys this car, unless they know how to do it themselves, is going to probably have to spend at least $500 just to put in the ball joints. And I don't even want to try guessing how much it would cost to get all the kinks out of the climate control system! If the fan part is burnt out, well then most likely the whole control unit in the dash needs to be replaced. Oh well, it's a convertible, so who needs air conditioning? ;-)
I'm posting this for two reasons. First it looks like a quasi-decent car (though it has it's problems). Second, the dealer is doing a nice job of marketing this car with a video. While I know this isn't the first time anyone has used video to market a car, I'll bet we'll see it used more and more.
I've got a digital camera with a "defect hiding" lens and those work great.
Looked great in the pics, I'll give it that much. Ended up being such a miserable POS once he had it trucked up here to MD that he actually got them to take it back!
Mostly in yacht sales the video is not presented to show condition as much as layout and equipment. And I don't know anybody who buys a $500,000 yacht sight unseen.
Anyway, he drove the car to work the day it got shipped to him, and it stalled on him. He called me at home, and trie to pump me for suggestions. Nothing would get it started, so he had it towed to some place in Annapolis that's supposed to have a really good repuation.
First problem was that the thing needed a new engine. It actually wasn't the original engine...I could tell from the pics that it was a newer, 1968-or-newer 318, and not the old 318 wideblock that a '66 Charger would have had. Turns out though that this thing's coolant passages were all silted up, and it was a miracle that the damn thing didn't overheat. The shop recommended just getting a whole new engine. On top of that though, they found problems with the suspension, places in the floorboards where sheetmetal was pop-riveted into place, with resulting gaps big enough to get a finger or two through. I forget why exactly the car wouldn't start, but in the end the whole estimate came out to about $3000, plus whatever a new engine (my friend was contemplating a crate 360). And this, on top of a car that he paid something like $9000 for already, and was represented as "turn key".
Turn key and run for your life, I guess! I'll admit that it did look good in the video tape...the interior looked nice, and so did the exterior, but there was a lot of hidden evils just waiting to rear their ugly head.
In the Buick forum, we discussed the prospect of getting a car and just driving the wheels off of it. Personally, I felt there were too many issues with that '61 Electra that would prevent me from pursuing that option.
And, while the same could be true with this '69 Bonneville, I think this car has more going for it in terms of better engineering and safety features.
Assuming a favorable inspection and a reasonable purchase price, I'd be more apt to roll the dice on this '69 Bonneville (and just drive it as is) as opposed to that '61 Electra.
Comments?
Y'know how sometimes an old car won't always start on the first try? So you'd have to shut it off, pump the gas, and try again? Well, with this one, if it didn't start on the first try, the solenoid would get stuck, and it would keep cranking and cranking, even with the key off. Only way to stop it was to pull a cable off the battery, resulting in a nice big spark, or keep trying and pray the car started!
If I had the money at the time, I would've gotten it checked out and fixed right, but I didn't. First time it happened, I replaced both the starter and the solenoid. It worked for awhile, but then started doing it again. This time, I just replaced the solenoid (although you had to take the starter off to get to it, so it was still a pain!) After that, it just kept on eating solenoids.
2 days after I got married, it died in my grandmother's yard, and I just left it. Finally got around to messing with it...I put on a new solenoid, which it promptly ate, and I took that as a sign to get rid of it!
Overall, I do like the big '69 Pontiacs. I think they're a bit ugly, but in a cool sort of way! About as good looking as a car with a beak can be, I guess! The last big Pontiac that *really* does anything for me is the '67...I've had a fascination with them ever since I was a little kid. The '68 is just TOO "beaky", but they toned it down pretty good on the '69, and made the body more flowing. The '70 just doesn't work with that "neoclassic" front-end, and the bloated '71-76 models were just too ugly looking, at least until the square headlights cleaned them up. I liked 'em once they downsized for '77, but by that time, all the exciting stuff, like hardtops, convertibles, and big-blocks were history.
With the '69, you'll probably have trouble finding specific stuff like trim and body parts, but mechanical stuff should be a breeze. In 1967-68, Pontiacs had a different suspension from other GM cars, so those parts were all unique, but I don't know about the '69...maybe they were more compatible by then? Either way, if you need suspension parts, they're not hard to find. I used Kanter when I needed stuff for my '67, and I'm sure for '69 it'd be just as easy.
Parts availability would be a definite plus for the '69, versus that '61 Electra. For one thing, they made a lot more big Pontiacs in '69 than they did big Buicks in 1961, but by '69 they were sharing more parts such as transmissions, and the Pontiac 400 was in production all the way through '79, so parts are easy to find.
The ad for this '69 Bonneville convertible has a photo, but for some reason the photo didn't display when I pulled it up today. Weird.
Perhaps it'll work later. Anyway, just wanted to pass this along.
I loved the back end - liked the "frowning" face tail lights. Maybe due to it being my first car, but I like the 69's the best of any Pontiac full sizers of that period.
They just don't build them like that anymore.
Come to think of it, the rear end was my favorite feature of that car. As ugly as the front was, the rear just had a beautiful, clean flowing look to it. It's kinda neat to think that Pontiac could combine ugly and beautiful all into one package, and make it work!
I guess there is always an attraction to and fondness for your first car, too. Mine was a 1980 Malibu coupe...nothing spectacular by a long shot, but I still have fond memories of it!
The '69 Bonne's standard 360HP mill is actually the big journal 428 and the 455 didn't appear until '70.
Believe it or not- non-mechanical parts will be easier to find for the '61 Electra over the Bonne; the collector market for the very late 60s full-size Pontiacs just isn't 'up & running' yet- stuff is scarce in a big way. It is much more so 'up' for the '61, with 'resale' likewise being quicker and of a better return. Mechanically you'll have no major problems with either as far as finding parts. I'll have to re-read the '61s ad; I don't recall all these discouraging 'issues' it had.
My wife's aunt had a tired '69 Bonne 4-dr hardtop, but she sold it before I could get my mitts on that 428. I did buy her '65 Bonneville 4-dr hardtop- what a beautiful classy cruiser that car was- PW, A/C, 62K, all black. I put about 8K on it before selling it in '94.
With the beautiful '61-67 full-sizes to choose from- I just can't whip up much enthusiasm over the '68 and up F/S. And dad had a '70 Cat which I remember fondly- but I've no real desire to obtain one. I actually like the '71s best out of '68-75 as far as styling goes, tho they're all attractive to some degree (just not as much as the earlier years!)
I'm guessing the 290 hp 400 is the 2bbl, and the 265 hp 400 is a 2bbl set up to run on lower-octane fuel?
Okay, now I'm all confused...so what *should* my '69 Bonneville have had under the hood? All I remember was that it was a 4-bbl, but I can't tell a 400 from a 428 or 455 unless I look at the sticker ;-)
Oh yeah, I did get a chance to see the pic of the '69 Parm found. It actually looked close to the color of my '67 Catalina! Did they call that color the same thing in '67?
The tricky thing about the Pontiacs is that the standard engine depended on which transmission you ordered. I think with a manual transmission, the 370-hp 4-bbl 428 was standard (as it was on Grand Prix SJs), but the 265-hp 2-bbl 400 was standard with automatic, with the 428 an extra-cost option. (Standard on Catalinas and Executives was the 290-hp high-compression 400 2-bbl, with 290 hp, while the Grand Prix started with the 350 hp 400 4-bbl.)
I figure that was a bit of fancy footwork to advertise a lower price, because I don't think more than a few hundred '69 Bonnevilles had the "standard" 3-speed manual. Most of 'em had automatic -- which of course you had to pay extra for, as well -- and thus the 428 pushed the price up yet more.
And there's a subtle tell-tale sign to tell the 'non-standard' displacement Pontiac engines (195, 326, 350, 421, 428, 455) from the 'standard' ones (389, 400)- but if I told you what it was I'd have to kill you (joke!)
Correct: the 290/400 2bbl is a high CR engine (10.5:1) while the 265/400 is the regular fuel motor (8.6:1). The 265HP motor was available across the board- I've seen one in a '68 GTO with a bench seat & a hood tach!
In '67 there was a paint color called Champagne (code S) which was used again in '69 (code 63 on data plate but still S on paper). This is the only 'yellow-family' color I see shared between the 2 years- so that's possibly it- I don't know what Champagne looks like offhand. There's no RPO "Butternut Yellow" for Pontiac from 1955-1975, tho custom colors (either special mix or from other divisions) were done on occasion- so it still could be a possible original color.
Looks like that '69 Bonneville is Mayfair Maize - assuming the present color is original to the car. The seller probably doesn't know the "official" color name. But, Butternut was a pretty good guess.
Or, perhaps the car has been repainted with a color the paint shop called Butternut.
http://autocolorlibrary.com/cgi-bin/search/searchpic.pl?1967-pont- iac-pg01.jpg
It's hard to match up the colors exactly because of screen differences, but mine looks like it might be either Mayfair Maize or Montego Cream.
That is a great site BTW!
What amazed me was the variety of colors that were available that either I've never seen or else barely remember.
Even, say a '62 Chevy. I guess some of those colors just weren't that popular when new?
For instance, in 1957, the DeSoto Firedome supposedly came with a manual tranny standard, and then the Powerflite was optional, and then the Torqueflite optional above that. In reality though, I think all the '57 Firedomes and Fireflites were fitted with Torqueflites. The only time I've ever seen a manual or Powerflite was on the cheaper Dodge-based Firesweep.
I'm sure GM and Ford pulled similar stunts. I could see some people wanting Catalinas or even Executives or Grand Prixs with manuals, but a Bonneville was all about luxury. Almost seems a waste from an economic standpoint to even offer a manual with it!
Nonetheless, automatic was NOT standard equipment except on higher-end models. All Cadillacs had it by '53, as did the Oldsmobile 98 and high-end Buicks, and by the sixties it was standard on Lincolns and Thunderbirds, but in most cases it was TECHNICALLY an extra-cost item, ranging from about $175 (for Powerglide on cheaper Chevies) to around $240 (for Turbo Hydramatic).
I think that's _why_ they made manual "standard." On a '69 GM car, automatic was one of the most expensive single options on the sheet, second mainly to air conditioning and some of the more exotic engine choices, so not making it standard let them advertise "low, low prices," even if no cars were actually sold for that cheap. Keep in mind that at the beginning of the decade, stuff like backup lights, turn signals, windshield wipers, and even outside mirrors were not necessarily standard equipment even on cheapo cars. A "stripped" base model really was...
Interesting POV. That's exactly my opinion when the new car enthusiasts bemoan something like the current Bonne for not offering a manual; even tho almost none would be ordered that way.
I do not consider having an automatic as an option a "stunt"- no matter the installation percentages. Pontiacs & Buicks didn't advertise base prices prominently in the 60s, seldom even in local advertising.
The only situation I can imagine where this becomes questionable is if a considerable number of cars are built with the optional automatic and NO OTHER options. Then the base price -whenever infrequently advertised- becomes misleading. But the fact is that practically NO cars were sold with NO options- a situation that renders base prices pretty much irrelevant.
Actually, I've driven huge cars fromt he 50s/60s with manual transmissions, and I don't think it works in the very large sedans and coupes. Big cars should be automatics unless they are drag-strip specific.
I know the 4-speed tranny (and the 5-speed, whenever that came out) are the more desireable manuals, but would a 3-on-the-tree give much of a performance advantage over a 3-speed TH400? Like say, if my '67 Catalina had a 3-on-the-tree, would it be significantly faster?
Its possible. Can't speak for all but sometimes different rear axles were available on manual cars.
I know on my bird the standard axle was a 2.73 with auto. Manual trannys came with a 3.08 as standard.
If it was really about performance you got the pillared coupe with few options on it not related to speed (these were the rarest).
Damn, I'm going to miss this board!
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Damn I'm gonna miss this board?
Isn't there a way we could save it?
As to saving the board, I'm all for it too. The problem with having older car discussions on the other boards is that some numbnuts is always (I mean *always*) going to chime in about how well their Kia (or BMW, or whatever) does something better than the car being discussed. The average person has real difficulty talking about concepts in the abstract rather than bringing their own situation into the mix.
And it's been said before, but I'll say it again:
"Damn, I'm gonna miss this board!
Isn't there a way we could save it?"
1969 GTOs manual trans installations actually were 44% (both 3- and 4-speed), and if you 'pull out' just the GTO convertibles, 36% had manuals. Thats not rare at all.
In other musclecars- yes; manuals were much more infrequent, to the generally accepted point of being rare (the Buick GS is probably a good candidate here).
The long throws of the column-shifted 3-on-the-tree probably negate much of the gearing/rear ratio advantage. My buddy had a 3-on-the-tree '53 Merc I drove a bunch- not easy to speed shift: your hand traveled almost 2 feet with each shift. Maybe by the late 60s they shifted quicker/shorter in general.
I guess I haven't been here long enough to know: what 'ends' a discussion board... what's being referred to above???
Anyone have any potential future congregation spots?
A guy in my Pontiac club has a 69 Judge 4 speed RA 3...always brings home a trophy.
This one will sell for $30,000+ as the reserve has already been met. This one has most of the goodies in that it's a 4-speed convertible.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2408239660
This one is at $16,200 which is pretty strong for a hardtop - albeit a nice one as far as I can tell.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2407998242
4-speed hardtop (currently at $8,100) that doesn't look as nice.
I just picked up a '74 Nova with some Pontiac rims on it. The original steels were rusted out...
Could you please tell me where these wheels most likely came from?
Here is the ebay page. If you scroll down there's a picture of the wheels.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290137663928&- ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=019
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
Robert
If those are 14" rims, they most likely came off a Firebird or maybe a '68-72 Tempest/LeMans, or a Ventura like Texases said. If it's a 15" rim, then most likely it came from a '73-77 LeMans
I'm not sure when the Rally 2 was finally phased out, but I know I've seen 80's Bonneviles (the RWD G-body model),Grand Prixes, and Parisiennes with them. Pontiac started offering a Snowflake Rally around 1976-77 and another style called the Honeycomb, and I think it was around that timeframe that the Rally 2 started to lose its popularity.
I think they're sharp looking wheels. I have a '76 Grand LeMans with Rally 2's, and I want to get a set for my '67 Catalina convertible. Just been too lazy/cheap to get motivated on that project!
P215/75R15. So must be the '73-'77 LeMans then. How much do you think I can get for 'em? They're not that great condition. A little rust, and a couple of the emblems are missing, but all the ring covers (?) are there. Tread's pretty good for what its worth.
Thank you very much for your help.
Robert
Northridge, CA