Slick 50 and Synthetics

artp

and generally make long trips.

artp

I would agree that there is very minimal wear, if any, for oil between 3k and 7k miles. I prefer to change mine sooner because of the sludge factor.

z71bill

If blow by gas was a good thing Mobile 1 would print "Extra blow by gas in every quart" on the container. The only thing you want in your oil is oil.. Use synthetics or regular oil - what ever you think is the best but I will never run any of my engines for 7,500 miles or more before I change the oil. (4 months or 3K is normal for me) Call me a money wasting fool if you want but the $11 it costs me to change the oil in my $28,000 truck seems like money well spent. It also makes me feel good when I check the oil and it is so clean it is hard to see it on the dip stick...

arkie6

Every engine has some blowby, no matter how good the rings are seated. This is due to the ring end gap. Also, blowby will be more with a cold engine since the rings are cold and the gap is larger. As the engine and rings heat up, the ring gap closes due to thermal expansion.

However, you should not visually see any blowby if the crankcase ventilation system is working properly (the intake sucks the gases through the PCV). While the gases are in the engine, they will intermingle the oil and cause some degradation.

Again, a cold engine has more blowby. This is why the engine manufactures frequently recommend shorter oil change intervals for vehicles that see frequent short trips.

adolart

My experience with synthetic has always been the best. 25 years in the construction business, many diesels, two of the important items I did not see in the above post.
Use the best filters you can buy to clean the oil,(regular oil or syn).
Synthetic at cold temps will turn over like summer, saving on the battery and starter.
Regular oil, as it is used, will evaporate the 'thinner' molecules, and in cold weather it thickens, causing hard starting and poor lubricating.
One of the best points is, it is a super lubricating oil, staying on the bearings, thus cutting wear when starting cold.
Out of 10 engines I used it in, never lost one to mechanical breakage. Use it only after around 5k miles to allow for breakin, I changed oil at 8K or 150 hours of use.
I realize some of the above is for cold weather, but seems to me it should improve warm weather considerations also.
Catapillar synthetic
Mobil 1 Delvac

rrichf

Jerry,
Where do you factor in the disallowed waranty claims when the manufacturer says, "You didn't follow the required maintenance schedule. Tough do-do, you're paying for the repairs."?

artp

Was that an infomercial? Just kidding. A very knowlegable post.

powerisfun

Yeah, if AMSOIL was available at Wal-Mart, Sam's Club, etc. for a little closer price to Mobil 1, I just might be anal enough about my truck to go with it, but it's just too easy to pick up a jug of Mobil 1 while I'm getting groceries (we have a Wal-Mart SuperCenter near us--love that store!).
I doubt either of us will have anything to worry about using Mobil 1 with 5000 mi intervals, though. The motors in our Z71's will be like new
for probably 200,000 miles (maybe longer). I don't know about you, but I hope to keep mine for a long time, so we'll see...
Do you use 5W-30 or 10W-30? I use the 5W-30 because the climate in northern NM at high altitude is never hot (85 in summer is usual) and it gets down in the 20's regularly in the winter.

-powerisfun

jerry_king

I appreciate all the responses to my post. I apoligize for it being so long. I just thought that any discussion about synthetics should include AMSOIL. POWERISFUN I agree with your post, I got the numbers from AMSOIL's catalog, so I apoligize. I own a diesel, so the quantities (12 quarts) and the oil filter prices ($8.50) are different for my truck. RRICHF, if you were to have a problem with your warranty, you can carry copies of the lab reports showing your oil to still be within parameters and your warranty will still be intact. (I say this because I had the same question.) Also, do any of you own Ford or Dodge diesels? I own both and if you are not happy with the amount of horsepower and torque in your truck, I can hook you up with a system that will give dramatic increases in both. (e. g. On a 160 h.p. stock Dodge Cummins horsepower gains of up to +130 h.p.) And they will NOT void your warranty. These systems even have CARB #'s so the are legal everywhere.

jerry_king

Oh, yeah and just for the record, even though its not available at Wally World, AMSOIL did beat Mobil 1 in the 4 ball wear test, although Mobil 1 came closer than any other oil. I'm not trying to put Mobil 1 down, I think it is a good oil.

jerry_king

for more info on the power upgrades, see www.bankspower.com I just recently installed one of these systems on my brother's Dodge Cummins. He was skeptical so before and after we installed the system, we carried his truck to an independant dyno shop (Kenworth) and had these results:

Before After
126 h.p. (rear wheels) 210 h.p. and the rear tires were spinning on the rims!

rotorray

A couple of years ago Consumer Reports did a filter story and the Fram Tough Guard came out highly recommended. Some posts don't like the Fram, but don't say why. I complared it with the $10 Mobil 1 the other day and, from the packaging, they say pretty much the same thing. Anyone out there can recommend a good filter? Is the Mobil 1 and good one? Is the Fram a good one? Appreciate the help.

2sly4u

Fram is junk. Poor filter surface areas, poor check valves, etc.

Mobile1 is a very good filter, but wix and purolator are about as good for about $4 less.

Still a very good and still very highly rated filter for less than $3 is the AC Delco filter. It has a very strong casing, good filter paper and surface area, a good check valve. If you change your oil every 3k miles with petroleum based oils or every 5k miles with synthetic, you should be just fine with an AC Delco. I just use the wix for added comfort feeling of protection and also to support my local autoparts store. Personally, I don't shop at WalMart for reasons I won't disclose here.

With whatever filter you choose, I would highly recommend using Mobile1 or other good synthetic oil.

rrichf

I've not been impressed with the Fram either. I've had several batches that leaked through the roll where the can is attached to the gasket plate. Not a big leak, about a quart between fill ups. The last one that I noticed was when I was on my way to a funeral. All dressed up, had to go to the dealer to have the filter changed. They did it in about 15 Minutes but it was the last Fram in one of my trucks.
Rich

rotorray

..for your filter comments. helped a lot.

dekingk

A couple of years ago I finally let go of my '89 Grand Prix. It had 210,000 miles on it and still ran like the day I bought it new. At the third oil change I switched to Mobil 1 5w-30 and stayed with it. I changed the oil filter every 6,000 miles and the oil once a year. I can't say anything bad about Mobil 1 or that super car, I wish I had never let it go.

powerisfun

I shop at Wal-Mart because it HELPS the little man. I know that flies in the face of common thought, but think about it, when a Wal-Mart comes to town, it probably hurts a total of around 20-30 small store owners max. However it helps tens of thousands of other FAMILIES that save hundreds every month by shopping at Wal-Mart (especially if it's a SuperCenter). My wife and I don't have any kids yet, but when Wal-Mart came to our town, I calculated that we save $90 every month in groceries alone. That's like getting a raise!!! Instead of having to pay small store prices so that 20-30 people can live better, people can now get a better car, or afford a bigger place, etc.
In short, I'm in total disagreement with the "Save the little man" philosophy. That's perpetuated by store owners that want to continue living high on the hog at the expense of the public. In my opinion, no one is owed a living.
I'll shut up now.
-powerisfun

davids1

but Amsoil's website gives details on common oil filter capacities and filtration efficiencies. Of course, their products won over the competition, but the Mobil1 oil filter was very close in their comparisons. What was more interesting, after reading some of the previous posts on oil filter choice, was that the Wix filter was next to last in filter capacity and dead last in filtration efficiency. In both instances the Wix was below the Fram. I am not saying the Fram is the best choice, but that the Wix may not be as good as some say. Check it out for yourself at www.amsoil.com

artp

Wow!!!! I actually COMPLETELY AGREE with you. You should look at my comment in "should I buy American" topic.

blawless

I am currently using Quaker State 5W-30/10W-30 depending on the season. I have an '87 GMC with a 305(86k mi. original). My towing and hauling habits have recently increased in weight and frequency. I have been evaluating my current setup and have been making engine and suspension mods.
One thought is switching to synthetic oil. If I decide the cost is too high or I don't see a gain, is it a piece of cake to switch back to conv? For that matter, is it a piece of cake to switch to synth in the first place?

markbuck

Wouldn't worry about it... Did it on my Diesel every winter, no problems.

drando

Some terminology needs to be clarified...
Synthetic oil is petroleum based just like normal
motor oil..The synthetic just refers to the molecular weight,, the molecular weight average would equal a certain value for a normal oil but the average can be a large spread, for example 10 and 2 average out to 6 right? Well normal oil may have 10 and 2 both and over time the more volatile componants will vaporize leaving the heavier componants.... the synthetics have a better (SYNTHETICALLY )engineered mix, for example 7 and 5 also average out to 6.....
the synthetics over time will retain more of the original character than the normal oil would...
the point here is 'over time'...
ever notice how your pcv valve will stay clean if you change oil frequently????if you leave oil in forever it will start vaporizing the heavier stuff and there goes the pcv,,,glug,glug,glug,clog,clog,clog,,etc,etc,etc

The point is, the synthetics retain the original oil characteristics longer (not forever though)
and the normal oils will thicken up quicker... so change it regularly and your in good shape ,,, and as far as $$$$$$$....
I use castrol GTX 10w-30 (5$ for a 5 quart jug) and ac filters (<$3 at most parts houses) (used to
use fram but they apparrantly used to be rated number 1 but now are just about rated number last)
so for $8 a oil change (at home, $20 at a oil change shop) its the cheapest,best, most effective maintenance that can be done on any vehicle , old or new...........
so there , now go change that oil, now you have a great reason to NOT go shopping with your wife..
enjoy

rs_petty

I'd have to disagree with drando on this. Syn oil is manufactured from a chemical known as polyolealfin (sp?) as the base. This is a manufactured chemical base not an organic base. The two benefits to synthetic in my mind are the ability to withstand temperature stresses better (won't boil off in heat and flows better when cold) and doesn't contain waxes which cause the gummy black stuff in the valve covers (and the rest of the engine) compared to the same weight dino oil. It in fact may be better suited to the extended normal oil change intervals recommended by manufacturers. But drando has hit the nail on the head when he says change that oil instead of shopping with the wife. Sound advice for anyone. I have read most of the posts on this and in thinking about it I can probably get 100 - 150k miles out of an engine easily by just following the normal change interval. By that time (about 10-12 years for me) I'm ready for a new truck whether the engine is worn out or not. Most of the other components not related to oil are worn out by then (a/c won't work, alternater, electrical problems, seals, gaskets, clutch, etc...)and so even if your engine is sound the rest of the truck needs changing. The bottomline is use which oil and change frequency that makes you feel you are maintaining your vehicle the way you want.

andy_jordan

One of the oil companies is advertising synthetics as not being oil based. Can't remember the company but here in Canada there is a tv commercial running in specialist spots which is basically along the lines of 'why would you want that dirty stuff straight out of the ground in your engine when you can have this wonderful stuff specially manufactured just for you'.

projammer

the post about synthetic oil being petroleum based must have been thinking about the "synthetic blends", which is a blend of the two.

Pure synthetic oil is made from chemicals, not crude oil of any type.

powerisfun

I think the point is still correct, though, that synthetic oil is comprised of a narrower distribution of molecular weights. Which as he stated makes the oil keep its designated viscosity for a much longer period.
-powerisfun

drando

I GOTTA TELL YA I GOT A CHEMICAL ENG DEGREE FROM AUBURN BEFORE I START THIS ONE....
(ONE OF THESE DAYS WE WILL AGAIN HAVE A NUMBER #1
FOOTBALL TEAM AND I HOPE ITS WHILE I'M YOUNG ENOUGH TO HANDLE THE TEQUILA WHILE I WATCH THE GAME...)
1. ORGANIC MEANS CARBON BASED.....
2. HYDROCARBONS MEAN HYDROGEN AND CARBON...
3. THERE ARE ALKANES (SINGLE CARBON BONDS) AND
ALKENES (CONTAIN DOUBLE CARBON BONDS)..
4. ALKANES (METHANE,ETHANE,PROPANE,BUTANE,ETC...
ALKENES (ETHENE,PROPENE,BUTENE(SEVERAL ISOMERS OF THIS.., AND SO ON)
5. ALKANES ARE CONTINUOUS CHAIN MOLECULES AND
ALKENES INTRODUCE THE DOUBLE CARBON BONDS AND THEN START FORMING AROMATICS (CYCLICAL MOLECULAR SHAPES..)(BENZENE,TOLUENE
ZYLENE..WHICH ARE DRY CLEANING SOLVENTS BY THE WAY(WHICH ALSO SMELL GOOD AND ALSO CAUSE CANCER
WHICH IS A MAJOR BUMMER.....)
6. ALKENES ARE ALSO CALLED 'OLEFINS' .....
7. THE POINT IS THEY ARE ALL HYDROCARBONS...
THEY ARE DIFFERENT ARRANGEMENTS OF THE SAME ELEMENTS WHICH DEFINITELY RESULT IN DIFFERENT
CHEMICAL PROPERTIES....PROBABLY THE COOLEST
PART OF THE ENTIRE ORGANIC CHEMISTRY CLASS!
8. THE MOLECULAR WT OF THESE MOLECULES CAN BE
ENGINEERED TO BE A CERTAIN VALUE COMPOSED OF
A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE OF THESE 'AROMATIC' MOLECULES, RATHER THAN THE OTHER STRAIGHT
CHAIN MOLECULES AND THEREFORE GIVE THE CHEMICAL
PROPERTIES THAT ARE DESIRED (BETTER LUBRICATION,LONGER LIFE DUE TO MOLECULAR STABILITY,BETTER CONTROLLED VOLATILITY,ETC..)
9. SO, SYNTHETIC IS STILL PETROLEUM.. JUST PUT
TOGETHER A LITTLE BETTER ..(LIKE A WOMAN THAT
IS SERIOUS ABOUT HER WORKOUT AND GETS POSITIVE RESULTS..STILL A GIRL, BUT PUT TOGETHER BETTER....)
10. AND, BY THE WAY, WAR EAGLE!, BEAT BAMA!
AND PLEASE, WIN A GAME!!!
SEE Y'ALL

rs_petty

All plastics and synthetics are derived from oil, but I wouldn't put your polyester leisure suit in my engine. It is the lab work done to reengineer the molecular structure of synthetic that makes it a synthetic rather than the relatively simple process of refining crude oil. Saying they are the same is like saying Auburn and 'Bama are the same because they both are in Alabama! Roll Tide!

slos

I agree with your definitions. One item I would add is that in a synthetic the molecules are less random, contain less variation than the natural feed stock that comes from the ground. The natural oils contain various different molecules that have many similar features, boiling point, etc. but over time in an engine will tend to break down quicker and form some deleterious products that can foul the engine and make the lube system less efficient.

In general, I have found that under the same conditions a full synthetic will break down less and last longer than a similar natural feedstock oil.

This is why I keep all of my air cooled equipment on synthetic and change once a season.

Great posts, keep it up.

BTW I intend on switching my F250 to synthetic at 5K and keep it on the sythetic. I haven't decided how long to go yet, but as usual, this mainly depends on personal preference and how much you drive in a time period.

powerisfun

"BTW I intend on switching my F250 to synthetic at
5K and keep it on the sythetic. I haven't decided
how long to go yet..."

I did the same exact thing with my '98 GMC switched to synthetic at 5000 miles (after changing oil at 1000 and 3000). Now I change every 5000 with mostly highway miles. I love my truck! Good luck with your F250 (great looking trucks!).

-powerisfun

rs_petty

Given your experience you can't justify the added cost if your happy with your results. My problem is I know I can buy .80 cent oil and 2.50 filters that meet manufacturers requirements and API tests for an oil change cost of about 8 bucks. If I change every 3000/3 months thats 32 bucks a year that will probably get me 100,000 miles easily. I can also use synthetic and high end filters for about $32 an oil change. If I do this twice a year or 7500 miles (manufacturers recommended schedule) I double my costs. Problem is I don't feel "comfortable" with cheap oil/filters even though they are "approved". I feel comfortable with Mobil 1 and AC Delco Gold filters on manufacturers schedule for my new Tundra V8. So for me it is not about financial return, but about comfort return.

jerry_king

Great posts everybody!
It all boils down to this:
Synthetics are better AND more expensive.
Whether or not you decide to use them is entirely up to you and a variety af variables. If you feel comfortable with conventional motor oil, use it! If you want the additional protection (and cost) of synthetics, use synthetics.

P. S. I cant remember, when exactly WAS the last time Bama or Auburn beat the VOLS?

rrichf

rs_petty,

I understand what you're saying. The only yardstick that I have for oil is the API ratings. Unfortunately, the testing is done by the oil producer. How honorable are they???? The filter is a different matter. I always buy the heaviest one. Usually it will have more filtration material inside. Dumb on my part? Maybe, but if anybody has a better idea, I'm all ears.

Rich

rs_petty

Topic 167 in Accessories has good info on filters. My biggest problems with filters are the small sizes coming out today. I just can't get by the thought that a larger filter of the same quality is not better in terms of flow and filtration than a smaller filter. I think all oil manufacturers "market" their brand to sell it. Since I can't do independent tests I guess I have to trust the API standards that the oil meets or passes their tests.

drando

about the oil and about the teams!!!!
Some things are definitely "you get what you pay for, and thats true with these oils ...
Synthetic is better , conventional is cheaper,
if your good about maintenance the conventional is
probably fine. If you're wanting to stretch out the maintenance schedule at least you have synthetics available to help you out.
Personally, I think shorter maintenance intervals
help people check other things that may not really
be on the schedule but could use checking anyway..
Actually, I think even the added cost of using
synthetic oil and higher cost filters (don't assume the expensive filters are always better though) is still the cheapest,best maintenance any
backyard mechanic can do to take care of a motor.
AND as far as bama/burn/vols are concerned....
I was at Auburn when Bo Jackson was beginning and it was
great watching them, It's still great watching all
of them actually, (seems like Tenn is more consistent though)
Let's just say 'hey' for SEC football , and remember.......practice this line......
'you go ahead dear, I've got to work on the car/truck and it's probably gonna take alllll
day.....
By the way there is a good page that shows oil
filter comparisons...
http://minimopar.simplenet.com/oilfilterstudy.html

rrichf

drando,
I checked out the page that you mentioned. The guy has examined maybe 20 oil filters. At 5 bucks a filter that's over a hundred bucks in filters alone, plus all the labor. I don't understand his motivation. Maybe I'm just too skeptical.
Rich

drando

I've seen people drive past several gas stations
riding on 'E' just to get to a favorite too...
We all have our quirks huh?
He does do a pretty even comparison though, more
power to him, It did show me some things I didn't
know, thought it was kinda cool.
The article made me to try an AC filter on my NISSAN at the nextoil change and I did notice the motor was noticibly quieter while warming up (was using fram
but not any more)......
I guess It's good to keep up with how things change, sometimes for the good and sometimes not.
Just saw a commercial for jello that fizzes....
HEY, just use good oil, people don't usually complain about problems with too much maintenance,
just too little.
Later
DRANDO

mviglianco1

I see that most are switching to synthetic around 6K. Why the second oil change? I know that the engine needs to get broken in but what how does synthetic effect this process?

slos

I don't know for certain, but what I understand is that the synthetic oil does not allow for the process of the rings seating correctly in a reasonable set of time. The "natural" oil allows the wear in of the as machined surfaces. I assume that the synthetic provides too good lubrication, but that is just my speculation. This is probably all just anecdotal, but it is sufficient for me to wait to use the synthetics

modvptnl

There are many new cars that come from the factory with synthetics. If memory serves me correct the corvette ZR1 was one of them.

rrichf

slos,
Maybe after the initial purchase it takes 6000 miles to catch one's financial breath so that the synthetic oil becomes a reasonable alternative.
Rich

unixgod

and many other cars come from the factory with Mobil1 synthetic oil in them. I have been told to use the same oil from the very beginning. Synthetic oil will not prevent proper wear in.

Like slos, I waited till my third oil change to switch to synthetic because of myths, but I could have used synthetic from day one and not had problems.

mgdvhman

at 978....and then 3000 or so with Mobil 1 5-30.

perhaps the myth got me too?

hell....last truck I had for 156K....nothing but conventional oil...

it's not like it's going to die if you don't use synthetic!

- Tim

unixgod

Thats true. I would say any claim of higher longevity is fairly subjective. Yeah, the synthetic has much better heat dissipation, viscosity, and cleaning characteristics, but a good conventional oil if changed at regular intervals will provide about the same engine life.

Where I have seen a huge difference between the two is when two engines of like mileage are torn down and looked at on the inside. The engine that ran synthetic oil is much much cleaner and much easier to rebuild and bring back to specs than the one that ran conventional oil.

Most people won't even keep their truck long enough for this benefit to prove out. I just do it because I am very particular about my truck and want to take the best of care of it. That includes going a little overboard by using synthetic oil.

My whole family has had many GM trucks that they put over 200k miles on using conventional oil.
They all use their trucks on the farm and to do heavier work than I use my 1/2 ton for. I have a 1 Ton Chevy with the 454 that has almost 263k miles. I use it for my heavy work so I don't have to use my new 1/2 ton for. I use conventional oil in it. It has been rebuilt, but still ran great before the rebuild.

rs_petty

Have any facts/studies been done on normal
cars/trucks? What happens to oil when a car is not used regularly on weekends or is only used on
weekends? What effect does moisture and acids play on oil life? At what point does the oil/filter combination lose the ability to protect the engine? Is it 3k or is it closer to the factory recommended changes approaching 6k or 7.5k (some are even longer)? Posts on other topics have said that oil life, measured by contaminate suspension, is around 5k. I'm not sure this is definitive and is certainly effected by driving conditions. If suspended contaminates are the real evil causing oil changes then logically air quality conditions would effect this - then why is stop/go city driving touted as a major reason for oil change - seems to me it would be harder on transmissions (hince ATF) than engine oil, but I don't see or hear about 3k ATF changes. I use to change air filters with oil changes, but factory schedules are showing 15k or a year between changes. My understanding of combustion engines would lead one to say that a dirty/inefficient air filter allows more dirt into the engine than anything else (the only other avenue is internal wear of components). There is suppose to be less wear with synthetics
so therefore there should be less contaminates in
the oil with synthetic. Should air filters be
changed more often? I ask these questions because
of my experience with the Army's oil analysis
program. The two major reasons for the program
were to get an early identification of engine
failure either through component wear or dirty air
filters. You did not want an analysis returned
indicating dirty air filters (trust me). Component wear ID allowed better logistics planning, service schedules and ultimately better readiness. What I am trying to think through on this post is a 3k oil change with conventional oil better than 7.5k oil change with synthetic oil. If I believe the 3k oil change story then logically I should look at more frequent changes for other fluids that also get contaminated and more frequent air filter changes. If I believe the factory recommended schedules, but just want to use IMHO a better quality lubricant then I should also get a satisfactory service life. I'm not sure there is an absolute answer to this question, but I love my truck and want to keep it that way.

tech

latest research by independent labs has shown very little difference between the hydrocarbon standard motor oil and the store brand synthetics such as mobil 1 and valvoline etc. the key in motoroil is the type of base stock used , since all oil producers use some additives to achieve various results. however there is a different class of synthetics known in the industry as premium synthetics.(red line oil, neo oil)
what makes them different is that they use a different base stock. they use a stock that is very similar in chemical make up to the type of synthetic used on commercial jet turbines . this stock (polyol ester) is the only one that will take the heat and stress produced in these turbines. you can imagine the performance in internal combustion engines. it is however about twice the price of the cheaper synthetics. but the protection offered is far superior. users are getting upwards of 500k miles from run of the mill gm v8's. unheard of with any other mode of lubrication. it is true that you will never exceed the parameters of this synthetic compound in street vehicles (100 % synthetic)it is primarily used in race cars dragsters and road racers. i'm crazy about my truck and wish to keep it as long as possible and will do whatever to that end. check out red line or neo oil they to my knowledge are the only manufacturers of polyol ester based oils. check it out.

z71bill

By the time I put 500,000 miles on my truck it would be the year 2050. I would be over 90 so I am sure the kids would have taken my keys away. Who knows maybe by then the only place you will be able to see gasoline is in a museum!!

tech

good point maybe gasoline will be obsolete in 50 years but you can bet that truck of yours that the oil barons will fight like hell to keep that from happening. so far they are winning.
maybe premium synthetics aren't for everyone but i for one want to keep my truck for as long as possible. i don't relish the idea of supporting the auto manufacturers if i don't have to. i guess
some people care more than others which is fine because that is what makes the world go round.

mgdvhman

will be around for WAYYYY more than 50 years...

- Tim

rs_petty

Are those independent lab test reports published anywhere? The biggest problem with Red Line/Neo is availability. I know I can get Mobil 1 anywhere in the country. I tend to agree with Z71bill, by the time you get that many miles on an engine the rest of the truck, or me, is worn out.