Did you recently rush to buy a new vehicle before tariff-related price hikes? A reporter is looking to speak with shoppers who felt pressure to act quickly due to expected cost increases; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com for more details by 4/24.
Slick 50 and Synthetics
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Gas is here for a long time.....a very long time..
We have billions of tons of it!
- Tim
i work for a major high tech manufacturer of semiconductors hopefully this will establish some credibility with the following comments on this issue. i have been interested in the debate over
synthetic vs hydrocarbon oils and the benefits or lack there of for quite some time. i am not chemical engineer but i do work with several men and women who are and have held several conversations with them on this very topic. they all have said there are distinct advantages to synthetics over the hydrocarbon based oils. the difference is whether it matters to the individual. i know that i am tired of people speaking witout bothering to research the issue and giving accurate information to others. just because they drive cars and change oil doesn't make them experts on cars and oil.what follows is the results of my research and the facts as far as i can determine from the resources available to me.
the facts are as i have determined,
1. what makes oil good or bad is the base stock of the oil.
it is either based on hydro. or synthetic stock.
2. the best base stock known commercially is polyol esters oils based on this stock are
1. red line
2. neo
3. amsoil ? i'm not sure of this one
the polyol esters are the oils used in commercial jet aircraft turbines because they are the only stock that can withstand that kind of stress and heat. they also are more expensive this is where you decise if it is worth the expense but they do out perform all other oils by far.
these are known as premium synthetics
the next level are based on polyalolefins agoood base but don't perform as well but definetly better than hydro based oils.
these are mobil1 valvo. etc. these are about half the price of premium but still more than hydro oil.
i use the premium because cars today are to expensive to replace if you don't have to. i also have found that with wxtended drain intervals and better filters the cost is not that much more. only you determine if it matters to you. i hope this helps someone.
Hi tech semiconductor field of expertise gives no credit to chemical engineering researched data.
I am a Computer LAN Systems Architect. Doesn't make me any more creditable about oil refining or an oil's chemical composition.
Not attacking, just pointing out that you have essentially done the same thing you said irritates you and what you have discredited others here for doing. Practice what you preach.
in no way was i trying to insult or put anyone down but on technical matters such as these(scientific properties of petro chemicals) it is not a matter of opinion. certainly we are all free to use this information or not.
Synthetic base oils may have longer intervals between drain and refill. Synthetic may protect the engine from wear better.
The only problem is that we'll have to tear the engine down at the million mile mark to see the difference. Would any of us "common oil changers" notice any difference at 250,000 miles? Would the added cost be worth it?
Who knows! Who cares? My truck will be gone by 300,000 miles and I sure as heck won't care one way or the other. Will an oil related failure prevent me from reaching the 300,000 mile mark? I doubt it.
On a diesel engine, cleanliness is next to Godliness and you have to remove the soot from the oil. Change at 5,000 and don't worry if the synthetic chemical base is removing the soot.
I guess that's a whole bucks worth.
Rich
How does your involvement with semiconductors give you expertise or any more credit about chemical engineering? That was my point.
Your backround doesn't sound any more credible than mine in electronics and engineering(by education) and my work experience in networks (by work experience) and I don't claim any more credibility on this subject than someone who just owns a truck or car and changes their own oil.
Enough said. It just sounded like you were calling the kettle black. Manufacturing semi-conductors is a lot different than manufacturing oil. If you have a degree in chemical engineering, which would give you education on all chemical engineering, I will retract the intent on my last post. It sounded to me like you were not a chemical engineer by education and only make semi-conductors by work experience, which would not give you credibility in chemical engineering, just making semi-conductors.
I know this because I worked in a clean room making semi-conductors while I was going to school. I didn't need any special education or backround, just on the job training.
Come on guys...share info...not doubt the knowledge of each other!
- Tim
Synthetic oil (Amsoil) boils around 450 deg and will poor down to -50 deg. Regular oil boils at a much lower temp and we all know how bad it poors when it gets around 0.
At 300K in a Cat engine, I had to change the clutch, at that time I removed the oil pan and checked the bearings with electronic gauges, all were like new readings.
200k miles may seem like a lot to some but from what i read and researched 500k is very realistic. i for one want to hold on to my vehicles as long as possible spending hard earned 20k+ dollars on more enjoyable things.
I drink Bud "as" my milk. Never will I stop.
You can go a lot longer on syn oil and still provide better protection because it doesn't degrade like regular oil. So you get better protection and less work at the same time. Plus the longer interval helps offset the cost. Sounds like a good combination to me.
I have ordered a 00 Ford F250 Lariat PSD CC SB. By the way I got it at dealer cost. Figures matched with carsatcost.com Hope to have it by March 1-15, 00. So I'm checking out all sorts of stuff to make this puppie purr for a long a time.
Have a good one.
Amsoil was first in the consumer synthetic business with an API rated oil. It was based on the high temp and stringent API ratings of the lubricants used in Jet Fighter Aircraft.
Amsoil has a complete line of products for every application imaginable. The base stock of Amsoil is still far better than any other in the business. It is costly, but you get what you pay for. Redline isn't making "SUPPORTED" claims of 25,000 mile or 1 year change intervals on their oil, thats for sure!
Go Amsoil if you want the very best for your vehicle. Oil tests have proven it to be the superior choice in synthetic lubrication.
Redline's vescosity, temp, breakdown, etc is not as good as Amsoil. Even just comparing each companies publicly posted specs on their websites will prove Amsoil has been and still is the industry leader in synthetic products. Redlines oil does not maintain it's vescosity at 45 degrees below zero like Amsoil for instance.
If you like Redline oil, thats fine. I never intended to imply that Relines "composition" was similar to Mobil1's. What I said was that it's protection qualities are comparible and Mobil1 is still cheaper. Redline does not have near the protection quality as Amsoil. Redline is comparible to on the shelf products at Walmart or Kmart in this respect, but not a bad oil by any means if you don't mind paying too much for it. Again, the specs are highly regulated and they can not be incorrect. Compare the two companies. If you know what you are looking at and understand what each spec means, it is a landslide difference to Amsoil's favor.
Also, Redline oil does not make a "full line" of products. Amsoil has a complete line of products for the car and truck.
Another note. I used Relines Sl1 fuel treatment for a short time. I noticed that when the Sl1 was placed in temps below 30 degrees F, it quickly gelled up. I wonder what that does in a gas tank in the Winter time. That proved that particular product to be crapola. Amsoils fuel treatment did not gel up at all, even when placed in a freezer. I called Redline's support number. They denied that their Sl1 product would gel up at any temp. That in itself is reason enough not to trust anything they make.
what do you or anyone else know about royal purple synthetic oil out of texas? is it comparable to amsoil?
but for the money...nothing compares to it.
It protects much better than conventional oil for the average everyday Joe.
If you are running a jet engine Powered Chevelle....then I guess Amsoil or Red Line would be the choice.
every other application....Mobil 1
- Tim
Tech: I do not personally know of Royal Purple's specs. I have heard of it, but only have researched the oil that has any competition with Amsoil and Royal Purple is not a strong competitor to Amsoil OR Redline oil. To me it is not even an option.
I am sold on Amsoil, even for my daily driving and light duty work use, it is the best for my money. Redline would be my second choice if money were not a concern. I just think that the protective qualities of Redline are pretty close to Mobil1's and Mobil1 is less expensive so if I had to buy my oil retail, Mobil1 would be my choice over Redline.
are you using amsoil filter or standard commercial brand? it seems that with amsoil it doen't breakdown under normal driving conditions that the determining factor as far as longevity is concerned is the filtration (particle size, efficiency, longevity of the filter) do you agree?
No oil is staying in my crankcase for 25,000 miles.
5000 Intervals is just fine.
- Tim
The breakdown is caused by heat, friction, and other variables.
Tim:
Your preference is fine. However, the Amsoil still provides better protection at 25,000 miles than the Mobil1 oil does at 5,000. The facts are in the research and study since 1972. Mobil1 has only been the last few years.
Mobil1 one is not a bad choice, but it is a fact that Amsoil is better, even at 25,000 miles of use.
Good Luck
- Tim
It's your money. No body should tell you how to save it or spend it more wisely.
Amsoil will still provide better protection at 25,000 miles than Mobil1 at 5,000 miles and your oil change maintenance costs would be reduced greatly. The oil sample analysis by Amsoil or even other testing facilities will prove this beyond the shadow of doubt 100% of the time.
This is where the initial cost of Amsoil pay's off. People are just reluctant to change their paradigms and stick to the things that keep making oil companies rich.
Again, it's your money. Save it or waste it, makes no diff to me.
Change your oil every 3k like oil companies have claimed was necessary for years. 3-5k intervals is only to make the oil companies more money.
3000 is overkill.
When you get a rocket scientist to analize Amsoil at 25,000 and Mobil 1 at 5000...perhaps amsoil may be the slightest tiny teeeny bit better in some kind of aspect that we will never even need or notice.
Bottom line - No person driving any car/truck needs anything more than Mobil 1....period.
You can sling all kinds of "amsoil say so" stuff in my face....but bottom line...I ain't keeping the oil for 25,000 miles....period.
Yeah you may have used 5 filters by then...but no filter can take out all the crap that has accumulated in 5000 miles...much less 25,000.
We were once told that "everybody needs a Yugo"..does everybody need Amsoil?....No....Does anybody really need amsoil that drives a car or truck?....probably not.
I drive 80 most of the time for long highway stretches and want an oil that is better than conventional when at those higher speeds....so it does not break down. Also wanted an oil that would flow faster at cold temp.....Mobil 1 provides both.
While Amsoil/Red Line may claim better....it's overkill.
I totally understand some people wanting to go for overkill. We all probably have some options on our vehicles that are really not needed...AKA overkill.
If you want to use way more than you need...go for it...I decide to use something more practical.
If you want dirt flowing through the engine for 25,000 miles.....go for it.
I'm sure the product is better than Mobil 1....but not enough to get excited about..
Good Luck
- Tim
i agree with what you are saying, i am employed as a tech in the semiconductor industry and the fact is 10 micron filtration is more than adequate for automotive purposes or for that matter most applications.
a few posts back i referenced an article in one of the popular mags(science i believe) to recap they took 10 nyc cabs and ran 5 with amsoil for 70 k miles and 5 (the control group) with dino oil changed every 3k miles. when the oil was analyzed they found 6x more bearing material in the control group oil. that is a striking statistic. it is enough to make me at least investigate amsoil.
i also understand mobil has changed (downgraded their base stock) at one time they advertised 25k change interval. but they switched to the less expensive polyalphaolefin base which does not have anywhere near the characteristics of the amsoil base stock. i also heard that red line has reduced the quantity of polyester in their formula making it inferior to the amsoil formula.
I know that Mobil 1 is over kill....I just choose not to go one further step of overkill as you do.
I have heard of Amsoil and know where to buy it. Red Line I have not heard of.
I use filters in my kine of work that filter water down to 1/2 micron..so 10 seems pretty huge..(just kidding..have a beer)
Chew on this....say you had a slight crack in block or wherever and coolant was leaking into the oil...I'd rather find it at 5000...then 25,000....wouldn't you?
What about just good old condensation which can happen?....you want that in there for 25,000 miles too?
Another thought is...when i sell it...I doubt very few people have heard of Amsoil....everyone knows Mobil 1. I'll have about 45,000 miles when I sell....and I don't think the buyer will be too happy when I tell him I changed it once in 45,000 miles....."But I used amsoil!!"
As for -45 degrees flow rating....I have nothing what so ever to worry about ever getting anywhere near that temperature....as I'm sure no one on this entire board does as well.
The flow difference between Mobil 1 and Amsoil does not apply to any of us....the flow difference between Conventional and Mobil 1 IS something we can take advantage of.
I don't doubt it's a better product...but it has no logical use for any of us in passenger cars and trucks....end of case.
- Tim
Other points:
Silverado maintenance schedule does not recommend 7,500 miles between oil changes - It says NEVER GO LONGER THAN 1 YEAR OR 7,500 MILES BETWEEN OIL CHANGES. My oil change light came on today after only 3,337 miles. I drive in town short trips.
Oil filter - 100% of the oil does not go through the filter, they have a by pass for the excess flow. If your filter was plugged would your engine stop pumping oil..
Changing your filter and not changing the oil- If I go to the trouble of changing the filter I may as well take the extra 3 minutes to change the oil.
I'm going approx. 5000 or so with M1
- Tim
I just used the -45 degrees vescosity as one benefit and point. I know nobody will actually be at that temperature with their vehicles. But that just shows how much benefit Amsoil provides as one point.
As far as the 25k mile hang up. There is a 7,500 mile oil made by Amsoil that is still better in all the qualities than Mobil1. If the 25k mile hangup is a problem, use the 7,500 mile oil AND filter change interval.
As far as moisture or coolant being in the oil, do you not check your oil at least once a week. I do. If you are particular enough to use a synthetic, I would guess you are particular enough to check your oil frequently also.
As far as selling your vehicle after using the higher oil change intervals, all you have to do is show the buyer Amsoils guarantee and GM's signed document that they support the oem warranty while using the Amsoil 25k mile change interval. That is correct. GM fully supports Amsoil's 25k mile oil change interval as long as the oil filters are changed as specified 5k intervals. That is in writing. The oil sample analysis tests prove that Amsoil protection at 25k miles with 5k filter changes still provides better protection than any synthetic oil at 5k oil AND filter change. It is no different than keeping oil and filter purchase receipts to show when oil was changed if you change your own oil.
Little does anyone know, but very soon Amsoil will be the bulk oils used in most all your lube service shops. It is very quickly taking over the valvoline and pennzoil shops as well as being used more and more in the mom and pop shops. It plain saves the shop and the customer money.
I respect your desire not to use it. I don't even claim it is the best choice for everyone. However if you are going to use a synthetic, Amsoil pays for itself very quickly if you just research it out.
As far as the guy who stated he might as well change his oil too if changing the filter. I don't get that. You only lose less than a quart of oil by changing the filter and it takes longer than 3 minutes to fully drain and replace the oil, not to mention you are throwing away perfectly good oil. Why? That is such a waste.
To the person who asked if I am an Amsoil dealer.
No. I am not. I just researched it out and found the best for the money. I just started using it after about 3 months of proving their claims were correct. I am 150% sold on Amsoil, even if the slightest bit inconvenient. It is worth the savings and the quality of protection. I am seriously considering becoming a dealer though. Around here, the stuff sells itself. My GM dealership stocks it for it's elite customers who want it over Mobil1. Mainly corvette and caddy owners. I could probably get contracts with most of the local shops around here too.
I don't mean to push Amsoil on you. I respect and fully understand the reasons you all prefer not to use it. I said and felt the same things. That is, until I did the research myself and proved it to save me money and provide better protection too. I won't make Bubba Walton any more money on oil from now on, that is for certain.
I see neither one of us is going to budge.
Good luck
- Tim
Doesn't "In Town" imply more idling and more frequent starts? Is it possible that an engine is running richer at idle and therefore more fuel contaminants reach the oil? With more frequent starts is there the possibility that there is more raw fuel contamination of the oil as well as metal grindings?
Rich
Like evrything in life it is never that simple. I think that the typical difference in maintenance schedules that is indicated by manufacturers really gets to the point. They suggest maintenance more regularly in various scenarios - dusty air for example, but also if there are a high number of short trips - essentially where the engine never really heats up and the oil is therefore working harder - and becoming more contaminated, as previously discussed.
Also do the math. If you drive 7,500 miles at an average speed of 60 MPH your engine has ran for 125 hours. If you drive the same 7,500 miles at 20 MPH it would be 375 hours.
You bring up an interesting point, the dusty environment. In a dusty environment I understand the logic for the need to change an air filter more frequently. Why the need to change the oil and filter more frequently? Never thought of it until you mentioned it. In the modern engine, the crankcase is sealed to dust and dirt. What is the logic behind the manufacturer's recommendation?
Rich