Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Pricing used vehicles involved in accidents/reconditioned

My 1999 4cyl Camry threw a connecting rod at 60,400 miles just before trade in. Toyota refused to replace the engine due the warranty had expired...although addmitting that there must have been something wrong as the car has a perfect service record. There was no evidence of sludging etc. ( see The Camry Message Board).

The engine is being replaced with a "RE-BUILT" engine by Geico under extended warranty.

Will the value of the car increase or decrease at trade-in/sale due to the installation of the rebuilt engine? i.e will the value of the car be affected? I need to know as I will be getting myself a Honda!


  • zueslewiszueslewis Posts: 2,353
    here is mine is it reads in my case reports:

    I confirmed through comparison of the part number used in the engine replacement that, in fact, a “new” engine was not used in the replacement operation – a “remanufactured” engine was used and several points come to light on this issue:

    - A remanufactured engine uses an engine block from unknown origin, application of vehicle and mileage on the “donor” vehicle.
    - A remanufactured engine’s internal components are usually only replaced if they are “out of specs” with a certain requirements - obviously not the same wear and tolerance specifications as a new engine.
    - A vehicle with a remanufactured engine, especially a newer vehicle such as this, bears the burden of “not being in original condition” and subsequently assumes a loss in value of at least 40% - considering there are no other contributing factors as is not the case on this vehicle.
    - An educated consumer or used car manager, upon having the ability to compare this vehicle to one that is similar but is equipped with the original engine, would choose the original vehicle. Even if the mileage on the vehicle with the original engine was more than on the remanufactured unit, a buyer can be certain the original engine is built to tighter tolerances and constructed by the vehicle’s manufacturer – not an “aftermarket” engine-rebuilding factory.

    *** Bear in mind that I work for plaintiff's attorneys in lemon law cases and I show the bad side of using a reman engine. I some situations, you may not see a decrease in value, depending on the appraiser and your method of disclosure of the vehicle's warranty/repair history.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,603
    The quality of the remanufactured engine depends on the rebuilder. How many miles it may have had on it really doesn't matter.

    I don't think it either adds or detracts from the value of the car. It may scare off a prospective buyer though.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Posts: 2,353
    I've never disagreed with you on anything, but...

    "How many miles it may have had on it really doesn't matter"

    That's just it, we don't know whether it had 30,000 miles or 300,000 miles. That's why I feel the way I do about remans. We're also not talking about some custom engine, like the one I want to put in my Mustang from Probe Industries - that's all miked out, balanced and blueprinted, top shelf components and a dyno run to prove its worth. You simply don't get any quality assurances (other than a brief warranty) with a reman.
  • Man....I do not like what I am hearing here! I am therefore doubly pissed at Toyota's dealership for refusing to help with a factory replacement especially knowing that I was ready for a trade-in! This was the same dealership that I have done ALL servicing/maintenance since new ..... EVERY 5000 miles!
    As soon as I get back my car I'll let you all know which dealership I'm talking about!
  • I can't believe Toyota wouldn't cover the repair given that it's been regularly maintained and barely out of warranty. Did you talk with corporate Toyota reps or just the dealership? I've seen Toyota replace head gaskets on a 1993 4Runner with 150k for free, so this case is really surprising.
  • I spoke to corporate Toyota who gave me a reference number etc. etc..... and ...referred us back to the dealership! Having found out we had extended warranty, Toyota was only willing to assist with the deductable. In the end I have lost the value of my car..the very reason why I had bought a Camry and kept it well maintained in the first place! Such is life!
  • ... how it affects the value depends on the car.
    in my opinion i tend to think that if it's an old car with high miles and all that a rebuilt engine will actually make it worth more than one with the original engine... however in your case a 96 camry would probably worth less than if it had the original engine especially with 60k miles.
  • I know this doesn't really help, but we all get our scaldings on a vehicle here and there, should we have the opportunity to live long enough, and buy-sell-trade a few. It's painful, but tolerable if you recognize the odds. Once you have it up and running, one way or the other, and get the miles from it you want, let me
    recommend that you take a look at the Nissan Altima and the Honda Accord. They're both rated at the top, and they compete with the Camry more than successfully.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Posts: 2,353
    You would have gotten a reman motor even if the Toyota dealer had covered the repair under warranty. There is no way a "new" motor would've been installed, even at 10,000 miles.
  • tbonertboner Posts: 402
    to expect a new engine be installed in a used car.

    As isellhondas said, the most important aspect is the quality of the remanufactured engine being installed.

    I contend that a remaned engine CAN (but isn't always) better than the factory assembled engine.

    Why? Because with a factory engine, the just put the parts in and expect it to run. If the engine is remanufactured correctly, everything will be measured, such as bearing clearances, cylinder taper and other things.

    I would not be afraid of a quality remanufactured engine, especially if it came from Toyota.


  • rroyce10rroyce10 Posts: 9,359
    ..... Hmmm, this can be a real tuffy for the owner .. Zueslewis makes all the right points here ..

    Right now as it stands, you will end up being the "bad guy" with a bad piece of merchandise. I don't doubt you took great care of the vehicle, so let's put that all aside for a moment, this will still be *Viewed* as - you didn't take Any care of it, Yota's do don't blow at 60k or even at 100k, unless maintenance wasn't done and you just burned the daylights out of the vehicle. Unfortunately in a situation like this, the word Doubt will always raise it's ugly head.

    I'm on your side, but most Retail buyers, dealers, wholesalers will look at this with a beaded eye. Anytime you have to tell a story to sell something, the value goes down. Me personally, If a dealer calls me on a vehicle that is "jam-up" - BUT- it's gotta this or it's gotta that, I start walking backwards and start losing all my interest and unless I can just flat "steal" it, to compensate for the story I'm gonna have to tell to the next guy.

    I don't feel this is a dealer thing, I thinks it's a Toyota thing. I have had Toyota repair transmissions, engines, compressors, power windows, etc, etc. outside of warranty, as long as I could produce ALL the "real deal" historys by the book .. as a rule, they don't like customers with a bad taste in their mouth, they haven't come this far to start dropping the ball now.
    *Isell -- I don't think it either adds or detracts from the value of the car.

    Come on, where did you come up with that.? You know as well as I, if that dude rolled into your lot for a trade, you would be dropping the value like a bad habit.

    But anyway, when everything is finally completed to "your satisfaction" the best thing you can do is .. have all your records, warranties, history, maintenance, ready to go, place a nice Ad and sell it on your own with a full disclosure to the new buyer .. IF, everything is properly done, a Yota buyer would love to get a 99 Camry with -0- miles on it.

    Good luck,

  • zueslewiszueslewis Posts: 2,353
    how can a reman be better than a new engine or original engine? A reman's block gets a quick once over, a hot dip and what doesn't meet specs (very loose specs, I might add) gets chunked. Whatever meets the loose specs, stays. The block could be 200,000 miles old - you have no way to know.

    I argue this point differently tham most because as a lemon law investigator, I contend that at 5,000, 10,000 or 30,000 miles, the manufacturer DOES have the option of installing a new engine versus a reman.

    Most dealers or used car managers, me included, would hit a car with a reman, not praise it.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Posts: 2,353
    is to not disclose it. That's up to the owner. The used car manager may still see labeling on the engine or other signs that it was recently replaced - then it looks like poor maintenance based on the reliability of other Camry engines.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Posts: 9,359
    .... I didn't even think about this until I was away .. but depending on the state, the situation, barometric pressure, yaddy yaddy yaddy, the title "could" fall into TMU at a later date ..

    Terry :-(
  • zueslewiszueslewis Posts: 2,353
    require the title to be annotated if the engine number changes - in this case, it would.

    Terry, you do realize that I work against the manufacturers and not dealers, right? Don't want you thinking I'm a bad guy.

    I love the dealer fraud stuff, but the attorneys tend to go after stuff that is blatant - Gary Barbera Auo Group and Reinhart Ford here in the Philly area are notorious, as well as the one group in North Jersey - Bob Casiulli, I think.
  • tbonertboner Posts: 402

    You are assuming they use very loose specs.

    I'm sure there are some places that build them just like you say.

    However, my contention is even with loose specs, a reman engine gets more measurement than a factory new engine. I doubt anything more than a sample of factory new engines are measured, since they assume the parts are in spec.

    However, I also believe there are high quality reman'ed engines out there, that are as good or even better than a factory new engine.

    However, don't confuse the quality of the reman'ed engine with the psychological issue folks have with something like this.

    I do believe an engine replacement is a hard sell to most potential buyers.

    I just believe it is an irrational fear. Any used car is full of used parts. And even new cars break early in their life cycle.


  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,603
    No,I don't think the mileage on a rebuilt really matters...IF...the job was done right.

    As an example, a rebuilder gets an engine with 60,000 that died because the owner blew a hose and oveheated it badly. Same rebuilder gets another engine to rebuild that died of old age at 200,000 miles. Both engines get rebored, cam and crank grinds, all wear items replaced etc.

    As far as I'm concerned, no difference in quality.

    Now...if the rebuilder was a shop that cuts corners and only replaces what he has to and sells his engines for 30% less than the other guy, then I think the mileage would make a difference.

    Terry...I guess we disagree. I suppose the existance of a "rebuilt" engine could raise some red flags but if the car was otherwise nice and showed no signs of abuse etc I think most appraisers would shrug and figure that something out of the ordinary must have happened such in this case we are discussing here.
  • There is no arguing against the points made by zueslewis concerning the resale of motor vehicles sporting rebuilt or remanufactured engines. It is not a matter of whether the rebuilt is better or worse than an original. The point is the emotional venue in which vehicles are bought and sold. This is perception at work, not scientific factuality. Professional and amateur buyers alike will almost always view such remanufactured drive trains as VERY negative to the marketability of the vehicle, now and forever. Dishonesty in such a sale is the only path around the phenomenon, and may cost the seller a big penalty later. Now, ain't it just so? (:o]
  • zueslewiszueslewis Posts: 2,353
    places like Jasper, I believe, are very high quality.

    The ones used by the manufacturers ARE NOT of this quality, as I see many engines fail even before leaving the dealership. I just looked at a GM case where the technician had to go through three engines before they could return the car to the customer.

    GM, Toyota, Ford, etc, does not rebuild their own motors. Jasper does. Knowing this, and knowing the manufacturer's reman engines are farmed out to who know where (a sweatshop in Bangledesh) guarantees the understanding that manufacturer's reman engines are NOT of the quality that some high performance aftermarket engines are. Check out a Pep Boys engine, then compare it to a Jasper.
  • ... i find it hard to believe that you can give such advice.
    if you decide to hide the fact that the car has a rebuilt engine and the buyer actually buys your car and later on discovers that it has a reman engine you could be in serious trouble because he has the right to sue you and will most likely win which automatically means that you'll loose a lot of money.

    i agree with isellhondas ,if someone wants to buy that car and the vehcile looks maitained and with all the service records he'll realize that it wasnt abused or anything like that so if he liked the car he will probably buy it but not quite at the same value as one with the original engine, however those few hundreds of dollars you "loose" will buy you peace of mind in the following years.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Posts: 9,359
    ..... I don't think of you as a bad guy at all .. as a matter of fact, I do follow your posts and feel you have made some very good calls on (from what information we get from the posters. l.o.l.) .. and I do know what you do for a living, so you have been very fair on both sides, in my stupid humble opinion .. We seem to be in agreement on this one also (but don't let your head get all bloated.!).l.o.l..


    *Fleetwoodsimca* great post -- with the Professional and amateur buyers alike will almost always view such remanufactured drive trains as VERY negative to the marketability of the vehicle, now and forever.*

    This is exactly the point .. it can be the most wonderful replacement in the world. -But, it's the psychological aspect, it's the emotional aspect of the sale - gheeez, it's hard enough to sell a vehicle with a re-painted door, cuz' Aunt Myrtle scratched it when leaving bingo. No matter what you say, most buyers are already thinking it was in a 16 car pile up ..



    I think most appraisers would shrug and figure that something out of the ordinary must have happened such in this case we are discussing here.

    I'm not trying to flame anyone .. but please tell me who the heck is going to just "Shrug" off a re-built motor in any vehicle .. If I called 15/20 dealers right now, during this beautiful Sunday halftime show, I would guarantee that half would have -0- interest and do a Pass, or at least be $1,5/$2,000 back of book.

    Also keep in mind, during a service inspection, if it was found out, they would have the previous owner on the phone in a heartbeat and would Demand those figures would change and the he couldn't do a thing about it .. except, come back and get the vehicle.

    Come on Isell, you need to get out a little more ...

  • zueslewiszueslewis Posts: 2,353
    I said that was the only way to avoid raised eyebrows. You may or may not be surprised how many vehicles come in on trade with things that should've been disclosed or patchover jobs to get them through the door. I would say 5 out of 10 have an issue that, if disclosed, would have effected the vehicle's value.
  • You can replace the engine with a 99 or even 01 low mileage engine from a junkyard. Say a car was rear-ended and totalled but the engine is completely intact. You'll know exactly how many miles the engine was run and will be able to test it. I would rather replace the whole thing than to disassemle a factory engine. Don't forget the cost too, you could get an engine from the junkyard for about $1k.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Posts: 2,353
    This person was dealing with a shop, and every shop I know wants a source for an engine with some sort of warranty, so if the thing breaks, the car owner doesn't come back on the shop.
  • tbonertboner Posts: 402
    I think this is the way you can overcome the negative emotions a potential buyer might have about a vehicle.

    Didn't I say that there would be a negative emotional response to the reman'ed engine. Or am I not part of this conversation, LOL.

    But if the Toyota dealership is willing to go through the certification process and warrant the vehicle that could go a long way towards comforting a potential buyer.

    But even these programs don't always make the cut. Recall the thread in here about the certified Honda that had a fender replacement. The buyer felt cheated that his or her certified vehicle was in an accident.

    Probably the smart shopper way to deal with the Toyota is to get a quality reman'ed engine and drive it a couple more years. Of course, if you are adding some kids to the family and need a mini-van (IIRC, this was the scenario) then keeping the smaller car really isn't an option.

    I think the "right" thing to do customer service wise would be for the dealer to look for an after market adjustment for the trade and keep the deal that was made.

    But they have no legal obligation to do that. Bad luck for the customer.

  • Well guys...I have no intention of hiding info about the rebuilt engine while selling. I replaced 60% worn disc pads, and skimmed rotors/drums (to remove a slight shimmy during braking) and replaced a sticking power door lock during the 60,000 service to ensure that the new owner had NO problem on buying the car! I remember the Golden Rule: do unto others as you would like them to do unto you!

    As it now stands per ZUESLEWIS in post #2... I have lost at least 40% of the value.

    i.e. The car may not be able to pay off for itself on being sold!

    rroyce10 - Post #12: This is the family car and used mainly by my wife to go to work (60 miles per day). It has not been subject to abuse. When I drive it it is usually with my kids on board. i.e. This car has not been abused/trashed

    Anyway...THANKS A MILLION TO YOU ALL FOR THE INFORMATION, ASSISTANCE & SUPPORT THAT YOU HAVE ALL PROVIDED. It will sure help our decisions made after we pick up the car in the middle of this week. (Toyota only needed Thurs to Tues to replace the damaged engine with the rebuilt unit - provided last Wed. by Geico)
  • To those of you in the new car business. How often do you check the engine numbers on cars that you take in as trades?
    I've bought a number of new cars over the years, and traded in my old cars on a regular basis. I've had the used car appraiser start up, and/or test drive my trade, but never do a "numbers check".
    I'm not advocating dishonesty, but the originality of an engine has never been questioned in any of my transactions.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Posts: 2,353
    to see that an engine has been replaced. All the accessories will be dirty, the hoses, lines, wiring harnesses, etc will show age, then you have a clean block, heads and valve covers staring at you. Additionally, many reman engines have decals that indicate their status. A seasoned eye can pick all this out just by opening the hood.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,603
    I understand your position and even agree to a point. The value of the car in question would make a big difference too. On a lot of cars it might scare off a buyer but not to the extent you mention. We disagree, that's all.

    A lot of cars out there running around with quality rebuilt engines that are running a lot better than similar cars with tired original engines in them.
  • After a year or two, the homogeneous "dirtiness" of the engine compartment will return and mask the evidence, I would assume.
Sign In or Register to comment.