Pricing used vehicles involved in accidents/reconditioned



  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    Raton! (right on)
  • leadfoot4leadfoot4 Member Posts: 593
    I've been following this discussion with more than casual interest. I have to admit, however, that I don't understand some of the logic that is being applied to the situation.
    Yes, I'm old enough to remember when Detroit was pumping out the "muscle cars", and then losing a ton of money on warranty replacement engines. I had a few neighbors, a little older than myself, who were the heroes on Main Street, and tore up a few engines while earning their titles.
    I fully understand that buying a car from someone like that might have been questionable, as those cars were flogged really hard. Yes, those cars probably had "diminished value", by virtue of the replacement well as the abused clutches, tired rear ends, worn brakes and suspension parts.
    Let's suppose, however, that some average driver has a car that is subject to some fluke failure. The car wasn't abused or neglected, but some part that should have lasted the life of the car just wasn't made correctly. Say it's a crankshaft, and it was poorly cast, and it broke after 3 years and 40,000 miles. Is the car owner just supposed to junk the car and eat the loss? If the car is still in good shape, I doubt it.
    If it were my car, and I really liked the car, I'd put in a new engine and continue to drive it. Sure, at some point in the future I'd probably sell it for something newer, but then am I supposed to proclaim that at some time in the past I replaced the engine?
    If the car is a fully functioning, good running vehicle, what's the difference? You replace tires, belts, hoses, and brakes, don't you? If a water pump leaks, you replace it, and go on, don't you? The latest thing in fashion is the timimg belt. They supposedly last 70,000 miles. You replace it, you go on.
    I'm not saying that you conceal an engine swap, especially if you're trying to sell a "numbers matching" collectors' car, but immediate disclosure of the swap?? On an "everday driver" kind of car??
    Like I said, I must have missed something here.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    you're missing is that with a vehicle that is common in the market, an appraiser, used car manager or consumer buyer has literally hundreds to choose from.

    With reman engines having failure rates 10 times higher than original engines, and being constructed from engine blocks (same goes with transmissions) of unknown origin, mileage and questionable integrity - we don't know if the blocks were x-rayed, machined, inspected or just cleaned up and filled with parts, some of which are not new. These factors make a vehicle with a reman worth less than one without a reman.

    While there is a good chance a reman engine may last as long as you need it to, the odds are against you.

    I've looked at cases from Ford, Chevy and Dodge where during a reman engine installation, the technician had two fresh remans fail in the shop before getting them out for a road test. I think about that every time I see a reman in a car.

    Now, if I had a older truck or car and it made sense to drop $2000 on an engine (installed), I'd do it. For instance, I'm looking at a '67 Chevy truck right now and I'll probably put a GM crate motor in it. Bear in mind, the typical "crate motor" is built to better specs than the base reman replacement engine. A GM Goodwrench "Targetmaster" - not a chance.
  • leadfoot4leadfoot4 Member Posts: 593
    I see your point. I assume, and that's bad, I know, that the "re-man" unit is a quality deal, not just a $2.98 special. That's where the difference in opinion comes from.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    where crate motors like those built by Jasper and several high performance builders are a different breed.

    Unfortunately, those engines used during warranty replacements are not built to great specs, just borderline.
  • leadfoot4leadfoot4 Member Posts: 593
    Again, I'm probably wrong, but if I get a re-man unit installed on a factory warranty, isn't it a factory re-man? Or, can the dealer/manufacturer take the cheap way out and install a $2.98 special?
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    Another aspect is if the vehicle is in an extended warranty paeriod, they don't even have to use a "factory" (sourced) reman.

    Don't let the existence of a warranty fool you. It certainly doesn't mean the part is perfect, it just a requirement of federal statute.
  • leadfoot4leadfoot4 Member Posts: 593
    ..Lingenfelter Performance, then I'm OK??
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    The managing partner of the firm I consult for just shipped his '01 Corvette 6-speed Convertible for their new supercharger conversion. Unreal!

    Cool HRE wheels, too.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    I have long presumed that "crate motor" referred to brand new, OEM produced engines that were exactly what would go into a production line motor vehicle. From the preceding postings (zueslewis) I now wonder. What gives here? What is the term that MEANS abso-blanking-lutely new replacement motor?
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    variety, either distributed by GM, Ford or Dodge or made by an engine builder, like Probe Industries (check out their site)

    GM has a whole line of performance crate engines (called crate motors 'cause they're shipped in a crate and are pretty much ready to go) that are set for high performance applications. Also, everything in teh engine is new - everything.

    An OEM-type reman does not fall into this category. A used block is used, it is usually x-rayed and then the components are checked for tolerances. These tolerances are BROAD. If the rods, crank and pistons meet these broad tolerances, they are cleaned up and reused with new bearings. If parts are bad, only those parts are replaced.

    In many cases, you just get a used motor with new bearings.

    It is a very RARE, ALMOST NEVER occurence when someone gets a real live, just like they put in at the factory, new motor. I see hundreds of cases, and over the last year, I can only recall 2 cases where a new motor was shipped in from the factory (one Ford, one Honda). All the others were reams just like I described - a good wash job, a rattle can spray paint coat and new bearings.
  • leadfoot4leadfoot4 Member Posts: 593
    ..but I was told by someone of knowledge that some "rebuilds" only get bored or honed in the cylinders that are "out of spec". In other words, you could wind up with a block that's stock in some cylinders, and .020",.030", or .040" over in the rest of the cylinders. Nice, huh??!!
    Now THAT'S an engine that should be disclosed prior to a sale.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    if a cylinder/piston combination has an acceptable amount of "slap" or the lack thereof, that's all it takes.

    When I do my engine, the only original thing will be the block, because I'm changing the rotating assembly. The block will be steamed, x-rayed and magnafluxed, so I won't worry.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    zueslewis: That's an eye opener that crate engines are NOT an assurance of "brand new." Actually, I had previously picked up on the performance aspect of crate engines, but I honestly did not know they tend to be renewed old stuff. You just can't win!
    We might do well to subscribe to: If it breaks, fix it and sell it-- then, go buy a new vehicle![:oÞ
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    engine and a "reman", with reams being the ones to worry about and crate motors built to much higher specifications with all new internals, not just a wash job.

    "Crate motor" isn't a dirty word - "reman" is.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I had no idea. I do know the term "rebuilt" means different things to different people.

    Having different size pistons in the same engine??

    I remember seeing a rebuilt short block on a stand in a discount auto parts store a few years ago. It was a small block Chevy.

    The pistons were stamped .080. I don't think I would want a block that had been bored that much!
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    It actually cannot happen without siamesing the bores, which is a very high dollar machine shop race engine trick. Not at Autozone.

    And yes, remans sometimes have different size piston bores, which can, and will, cause stress on the crank bearings over time, causing premature failure. That's why I hit cars with remans so hard and why I'd never buy one. A crate motor, with all new rotating assembly on a checked-out used block? Sure, but it still would devalue a newer car.

    My '86 Mustang? I don't think having a crate motor (actually a rebuild using my block, plus aluminum heads) will hurt its value.
  • leadfoot4leadfoot4 Member Posts: 593
    that in my neck of the woods, most of the "reputable", high performance machine shops have closed. The original owners got old and retired, and it seems that there just isn't enough HP work around here anymore, so the only shops left are the general "job shops".
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    is to check out the high performance shops. I subscribe to 5.0 Mustang magazine (and 18 other car/truck and bike books) and many shops offer short and long blocks built to order, menu style. They also have the normal basic engines - fairly inexpensive. I've seen many long blocks (cast iron heads) under $2,000, even cheaper for the Chevy crowd.
  • dhoffdhoff Member Posts: 282
    I know this is a bit off-topic, but this talk of only boring out "bad" cylinders and pronouncing the engine reconditioned remended me of something that happened to my dad quite a few years ago...

    He bought a snomobile really cheap. It was a twin cylinder 440 that actually ran pretty well. He couldn't figure out why he got such a good deal on it. One day, for some reason (I forget why) he pulled the spark plugs and looked in the bore. Didn't look right, so he pulled off the head. The cylinders had 2 different pistons in them, and one had a hole in the top patched by a BOLT AND WASHER plugging it up. And this was in the mid-seventies before anyone had heard of McGuyver.

    He ended up replacing the holed piston selling it off to someone else.

  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    worked, though, probably to his amazement.
  • oldharryoldharry Member Posts: 413
    GM had a program they advertised as brand new short blocks, not rebuilt. The price was competetive with remans, do they still have this?

  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    for their 5.0, with a brand new ('93 style) Cobra shortblock.

    I strongly considered this option for my Mustang, but I'm doing a knife-edged crank, Crane cam, Carillo rods and a gear drive (instead of a timing chain), so I would have to change way too much stuff.
  • mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    I've heard a lot lately about seeking "diminished value" on an insurance claim. Does anyone know the process?

    I'm thinking about it now because the last vehicle I owned and sold was severely cut in price because the inspector they took it to used a "paint spectrometer" on it and noted that it had been repainted. What really happened is a year before I sold it, the car was hit on the front fender by someone. Because of this, the front fender and hood was replaced but there absolutely NO other damage (total repair was under $1,500). Of course they dinged me $6k.

    This was in 1999 and the car was sold in 2000. I had never even heard of "diminished value" at the time but now I hear about it all the time. I have a friend who's Tahoe was creamed a month or so ago and we were talking about it. I would like to give him some info but don't know enough about it.

    Any help would be appreciated.
  • kinleykinley Member Posts: 854
    Given: Dealer has two '03 Towncars for sale. A red one and a green one. He loans the red one to a customer that is rearended & it costs a lot to repair. The dealer can sell the green one for $35,000, but due to prior damage, the market price for the red one is diminished to say, $30,000. The DM = 5k in this example.

    The older and higher mileage vehicles usually have lesser DV. However a 10 year old "virgin" will usually bring more than a 10 year old damaged one.
  • mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    I know how to figure diminished value. I am just questioning the process. Is it a separate claim? Is there a deadline? Negotiation?
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Sorry I don't have more info, but

    I saw on one of these threads months ago that GA had passed legislation requiring ins co's to reimburse for 'diminished value'.

    I had a recent theft claim, and it took a 'claims trouble shooter' on staff with my insurance agency to get the adjuster on the right track. So, I'm thinking your insurance agent may be of help. Settling a claim is like buying a car, I think, with a lot of hooey sorting through called for. LOL, the claim form on my 'total loss' was fishing for 'diminished value' with questions about previous repairs; so, I feel certain that adjusters understand the concept. Whether or not they will voluntarily compensate you is a totally different question.

    Since you lease, my guess is that you'll face the argument that you have no actual 'diminished value', i.e. no actual loss; and I've got no idea how that would play out.
  • mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    This is for a friend who owns his '01 Tahoe.

    He got a check yesterday from the other insurance for a fair "diminished value" settlement and is quite pleased.

  • kinleykinley Member Posts: 854
    it is possible that company treated the petition as a separate claim. Deadline = within a reasonable period of time which is between 30 and 90 days. Negotiation? Definately. Especially in a Contributory Negligence Law state where the party seeking "DV" could be as little as 10% at fault.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Very cool! I posted on the other 'lease' thread, also.
  • kinleykinley Member Posts: 854
  • leomartinleomartin Member Posts: 3
    Hello: My 2000 Honda Civil was involved in a major accident and it cost almost $10,000 to repair. The repair shop did a good job and the vehicle looks good. When I go to sell this vehicle, either to a dealer or private party, I will need to disclosed that the vehicle was involved in a major accident. Because of this I figure that I would need to lower by asking price by $2,500 to $3,000. I would be interested in hearing other opinions concerning this. Thanks
  • bodble2bodble2 Member Posts: 4,514
    but the $ amount of the diminished value would depend on how long you keep the car -- the longer you keep it, the less the diminished value.

    Furthermore, according to my insurance broker, this diminished value is not a litigious issue, at least not against the insurance company.
    I'm not sure if there is case precedent of someone selling the car right after the accident, thereby crystalizing the diminished value, and then suing the at-fault party.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ....... Wholly Molly ...!!!

           Ten Grand ...? and it wasn't totaled ..?

            Obviously I don't know the miles, what type or model Civic it is .. but the super clean, super nice 20k 00 LX's, are hardly breaking the high $9's at the auctions .. this pup "may" be worth $5/$6,000 on a trade and "maybe" $8/$9,0 "asking" on the retail side .. whooof $10 grand ..? - I'm sure there's gotta be some frame damage some place, besides that, a dealer will spot the work with their eyes closed and a private buyer probably will too - plus this has to be declared at trade or at sale time .. ouch, this is a nightmare waiting to happen - sorry.

  • leomartinleomartin Member Posts: 3
    The vehicle, the EX model, was in the accident in January. It only had 17,000 miles on it. I too was a little taken back that it was not totaled, but I was told that it was right on the edge.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Yup, there's deminished value.

    In some states, compensation for deminished value has become routine (GA for one). You might wanna check with your insurance agent.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    .... It's an EX with 17k in January ..? .. if it's a 4dr, they weren't doing much more than the high $10's, low $11's in Jan/Feb .. you need to get this deal hammered out.

  • chibridchibrid Member Posts: 5
    My wife was recently in an accident in our 2003 Civic Hybrid (1 Year old, 13,500 miles). While stopped, she was rear-ended and pushed under a truck far enough to break the windshield and dislodge the dashboard. To my surprize, the air bags did not deploy. Fortunately, she was not injured, but the car had $10,100 in damage. I'm sure the value of the car is significantly lower than a comparable vehicle that has not been in an accident even though the repair shop does excellent work. Any advice on what I should do? I live in VA.
  • kinleykinley Member Posts: 854
    to the dealer and trade them in for a new car. You will get another virgin vehicle and the dealer's body shop will have some work to do. When the dealer says he will have to reduce the value of the trade because it will have undergone major repair and the reduction is $XXX - that is your diminished value you seek from the adverse insurance company.
  • chibridchibrid Member Posts: 5
    Good advice kenley. I wonder how much of the diminished value would be due to appreciation since the car has over 13,000 miles?
  • kinleykinley Member Posts: 854
    The dealer's additional reduction in value is the DV. DV is not a part of Depreciation scales used in the book.
  • chibridchibrid Member Posts: 5
    Kinley. My issue is over. The repair shop found additional damage to my Hybrid and the insurance company now considers it totaled. I've already bought a new one.
  • kinleykinley Member Posts: 854
  • thetwoakidsthetwoakids Member Posts: 5
    I was in a major car accident last year. I was driving a 2002 Honda Odessey with just over 500 miles on it. The car was not even two months old.

    The frame was not damaged but there was significant repairs to the car overall.

    The car is now finished (using a very reputable repair shop and only Honda parts) and I am trying to figure out how to price it.

    I know what the Blue Book says but I am assuming I should take off some $ b/c it was in accident...but how much.

    I plan on giving whoever buys the car photos of it right after the accident.

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    And a hard question to answer.

    The Odyssey may be fixed "perfectly" but it's still been wrecked.

    Most people wouldn't want it unless thye could steal it.

    Maybe some of the others here have a better grasp of this than I do but it would be hard to apply a hard number to this.
  • sirveauxsirveaux Member Posts: 5
    I'm curious how much a Junk Title (California) diminishes the value of a vehicle. The vehicle in question is a 99 Maxima in great condition. Is this vehicle essentially worthless? Any input is appreciated, thanks!

  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    .... Need some more info here babe .. model, miles, condition, options, color ..

  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,818
    we need to know the extent of the damage.

    Terry, what are you doing posting at 04:11??? You know how we worry.
  • janzjanz Member Posts: 129
    Years ago, when my car was totalled in CA, I asked why a release of liability was still needed. I was told it was for my protection incase someone salvaged it and put it back on the road.
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