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Forester Turbo in 1 year
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Comments
>> The 4Motion has 190hp and won't be nearly as fast <<
I certainly hope so! (Although, in its defense, it has very good low-end torque). But, I too, was hoping for a mileage-miracle. I was hoping the mpg in the XT would be more like an on-off thing: drive it moderately, get decent mileage. Drive it spirited, you pay for it.
Perhaps the DOHC friction combined with the low compression make it less efficient than what the AVCS (VVT) can recover. Then the AVCS would effectively just be for low-end torque. So much technology, and you end up with torque, max power, weight, and fuel consumption comparable to an H6 or V6...
- D.
-juice
http://autonet.ca/CarMarket/stories.cfm?storyID=8453
I have been thinking the measure was in MILES per hour. If this is true, then it really doesn't seem that much faster than the normally aspirated version. I hope it's not so. Since I live in the flat Illinois prairie, I don't need an engine that handles better at high altitude, which would seem to be the best part of the turbo if it's not as speedy as I'd hoped.
Ballistic: I read in the article the weight increase was only 115 lbs., not 150.
-Bob
-Bob
So yes, you can safely assume that the article got it wrong and Subaru of Canada has it right (after they corrected their own typo, a while back).
Juice: Of course it is worth paying a bit more on gas and premium for the XT. Just wishful thinking.
- D.
I saw that, too. Pretty amusing. My old 36hp '57 VW Beetle probably wasn't too much worse than that.
>Ballistic: I read in the article the weight increase was only 115 lbs., not 150.
You're right; blame my old eyes. 115 isn't quite such a concern. Too bad there's no place in the stern to relocate the battery; that would balance things out nicely.
Ballistic: Ditto. What is interesting to me is how often people in the auto industry, especially auto reviewers, help perpetuate these myths. Its seems that I have read a number of articles in which reviewers claim to feel safer in the taller, wider, and heavier vehicle. Of course these are the same people who consistently adhere to the bigger is better mentality.
My wife took a look at the Forester with me yesterday and she liked it more than the Legacy wagon. So I guess I'll just have to get one. Hey, if the wife likes it, how can a guy complain. Plus, she said I might as well get the premium pack since its only a few dollars more. Hope some 2003s are still around to bargain for in August. The one condition is that I can't complain or whine about how nice the 2005 Legacys look when they come out. I think I can hold up to that deal (maybe).
Will consider the XT, but the 19 to 23 MPG is a big turn off for me. Does not sound financially prudent for our needs. We got some long trips in our future.
BTW: Its now Dr. Barkley.
P.S. Then next week it should be Daddy Barkley.
P.S.S. Then after that I'll be happy with just Barkley again. Busy couple of weeks.
- Dr. Daddy D. (couldn't resist the three Ds).
By the way, the XS with premium pachage and leather is about the same price as the XT (without). So you are just talking about a couple of hundred dollars difference a year due to premium gas and slightly worse mileage.
If the 2.5turbo engine was available NOW in the Legacy wagon, I'd have a tough choice deciding between that and the XT I've ordered. But because it isn't, choosing the XT was easy.
"The one condition is that I can't complain or whine about how nice the 2005 Legacys look when they come out."
My wife's Concorde will probably be due for replacement one to two years from now, so that new Legacy (with 2.5T and 5-speed auto) might appeal to her. I'm in a no-lose situation!
"BTW: Its now Dr. Barkley. Then next week it should be Daddy Barkley."
Congrats - twice.
-jack
How proven in the new turbo engine in the XT? I know it is based on the WRX engine but is it expected to be trouble free or can we expect this year to be a "1st year model get the kinks out" model? Any thoughts?
It is actually based on the (North America-only) STi engine, not the WRX engine.
I am not worried because (i) although modified, the normally aspirated 2.5l engine has been around for quite a number of years (6 or so?), (ii) in Japan, AVCS (VVT) has been used on the 2.0l engine for over a year, (iii) Subaru is very experienced in designing engines for turbocharging (20 years or so), and (iv) it is the heavily de-tuned version of the 300hp/300ft-lbs STi engine, so the various forces and loads on the engine are significantly reduced, in comparison.
Hope this helps,
- D.
Your right Jack, you do have the best of both worlds with an XT and Legacy in your future. I think my wife would look nice in a Legacy sedan someday, but that will not happen anytime soon.
When looking at the Legacy and Forester yesterday I have to admit we both liked the higher seating afforded by the Forester. I have become increasingly frustrated with not being able to see around all of the other SUVs, trucks, and mini-vans on the road. So I guess I'll be guilty of the "if you can't beat'em, join'em" mentality.
"By the way, the XS with premium pachage and leather is about the same price as the XT (without). So you are just talking about a couple of hundred dollars difference a year due to premium gas and slightly worse mileage."
Ya, I realized that, so now I'll probably have to think (perseverate) about those choices. You XT people are a bad influence $$.
Dr. Phil (go ahead LOL)
>> You XT people are a bad influence <<
This effect has been described here as joining the dark side, although I insist that in its original meaning, it just applies to being attracted to the WRX or STi, not to the turbo in general.
May the torque be with you,
- D.
http://www.wrxforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;- t=001538
-tom
Ken
dtoso1 asks: "How proven in the new turbo engine in the XT? I know it is based on the WRX engine but is it expected to be trouble free or can we expect this year to be a "1st year model get the kinks out" model? Any thoughts? "
It is a brand-new engine, unavailable in any Subaru prior to a month or two ago (in the STi). It has important new engineering features that were not on the ordinary WRX, such as variable valve timing and electronic throttle control. No one outside Subaru has any idea how durable or reliable this new engine will be.
- jack
Actually, I'm not disappointed that the suspension has evidently been left alone - I wouldn't want the XT to become a hard-riding buckboard. I think the current Forester strikes a very nice balance between handling and everyday ride quality. My only real concern is the extra 115 lbs in the nose, and how much that will aggravate understeer.
Cobb's comment about little or nothing becoming available beyond 50% throttle seemed strange. There is no direct connection between the pedal and the butterfly due to the electronic throttle control. Few of us has driven a car with that feature, so maybe it takes getting used to.
- jack
I'll certainly have to test drive one and decide what's more fun. Sunroof and leather XS or base XT turbo. Decision, decisions, decisions.
Barkley
Mark
Went to the dealer today and they're telling me no XTs until, "the end of July."
WTF is with Subaru Distribution Co.? Why does the NY tri-state area always get the raw end of the stick when it comes to new model distribution? Before I was told, "early June", now it's TWO months after everywhere else gets them?
This means I have to drive to an SOA area to get the car. The sales guy was apologetic but I told him flat out that he's most likely losing a sale because they can't offer a product the competition can. He wasn't pleased with that but I told him to tell his sales manager to complain to SDC.
I think it's intolerable Subaru has this pathetic excuse for a distribution system in this country. If they want to move up to the big leagues this is NO way to do it. It's an embarassment.
I agree that the current Forester strikes a balance between handling and everyday ride quality. However, given that Subaru was targeting the XT against other "true sport-oriented models", I think they could have done a liiiittle more to compliment the new engine. The suspension could have been dialed slightly more towards performance without upsetting everyday drivability a la Legacy GT.
Ken
No argument, but it is, after all, nominally a SUV. It already out-handles any other SUV priced under $50K. I'm pretty sure I'll be satisfied, maybe with a beefier rear sway bar.
Interesting you should mention the Legacy. Believe if or not, the next-gen Legacy is already being driven. The link below takes you to a brand-new review of the British version - 2 liters, turbo, 260bhp, Tiptronic (or at least that's what they called the 5-speed auto). Plus there are nice pictures I haven't seen anywhere else, including a shot of the interior.
I have no temptation to cancel my XT order and wait for the Legacy, because the XT will fill my needs very well, and do it now. But maybe my wife (who'd rather have an automatic anyway) will get a next-gen Legacy 2.5 turbo to snuggle up next to the XT in our garage...here's the link. You may have to register on the site to read the review:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/
Yes, I've been following the new Legacy write-ups pretty religiously. It looks very promising but it is still some time away until it hits our market. I would keep an XT order on the books too.
Ken
At some point all those sporty SUVs will know what they're up against when they spot it. (My wife hates it, but that will not deter me!)
Juice, I will be taking advantage of my wife's ASHA membership to get in line for a silver 5-MT XT (at invoice) soon from Fitzmall. Look for me tooling around NE in the fall.
--dcdouglas
i am confident thati can get almost 30 mpg on the highway from either the 2.0 or 2.5 boxer turbos, as i tend to stick close to the speed limits. i wish the mags would publish the 35 to 65 times, and also compare with a 600 pound ( 4 passengers)distributed load. those are numbers that i can relate to.
in the meantime, i am waiting until my subaru VIP benefit ripens, december, so many of these XT mysteries will be old news by then.
Mark
I post this here because this is where I picked up the original thread in following the discussions about our much aticipated Forster XT. After much indicision, my wife and I finaly just bought our first new car, a Forester XS Premium manual transmission. It had 3 miles on it at the lot. I checked the tires, and they were all inflated to 55+psi! I would have never thought to check! Anyway, we LOVE it! even if it is the non-turbocharged model.
-Jim
Egad. I'm the one who described my XS roadtest, to which Subearu responded with the overinflation comment. Based on the way the car I tested rode and steered, it wouldn't surprise me if its tires had been left at 45+ psi. I'm looking forward to driving a Forester on correctly-inflated tires.
- jack
Just bring a tire pressure gauge with you when you go for a test drive or to pick up your new vehicle.
I too will be waiting for your impressions Jim. Have you driven a WRX at all just for comparison sake?
-Brian
-Bob
The XS handles really nicely, and for everyday driving the normal engine is more than ample (especially compared to our Mazda 2200) All the gauges are readable when I drive, and I have lots of leg room, but with the tilt steering and many seat adjustments both my wife and I can easily fit.
The stereo is a bit lacking, but then it has just the stock speakers and no tweeters or sub. I'm not looking for a thumper, but by comparison the upgraded sound system is much nicer (co-worker has one in an Outback). I'll be saving up for some upgrades there.
All in all we love it. Of course I'll write back later with any concerns or annoyances if they pop up.
-Jim
Nice write up -- you should share it in the Forester forum as well!
Just wait -- you'll be driving in inclement weather just because you have a Forester.
Ken
Today my dealer FINALLY received info on mine. He says it's scheduled to arrive in the week of June 23, but that (because we're just across the Columbia from the port) there's an outside chance it might arrive a little sooner (i.e. late in the preceding week). So if I'm lucky I might have mine in ten days or so. But I'm usually not lucky.
- jack
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4046- 985#post4046985
It may not do anything but it made me feel better
If you are carting kids around, it's a good balance.
-juice
Speaking only for myself, I really do believe that the suspension on the current X/XS (and presumably XT) is a truly outstanding compromise between those who want class-leading handling and those who want (or need) a reasonably comfortable, non-jarring ride. If the suspension setup moved very far in either direction from its present settings, significant numbers of people in one group or the other would likely begin to find the car unacceptable. I personally would not object to a bit firmer shock valving and stiffer sway bars (particularly at the rear). However, my wife has a chronic bad back, and the XS she drove was right at (or maybe a bit beyond) her zone of concern. Thus, out of consideration for her, if the XT significantly stiffened the ride, I would sadly have to seek something else.
In the ride-vs-handling compromise, I think Subaru has hit the center of the sweet spot. Those comparative few who truly require something approaching a competition setup can (albeit at some expense) achieve their goals with what will no doubt be plentiful aftermarket bits. On the other hand, how would one go about softening a Forester if the stock setup was too stiff?
Finally, consider that for any given vehicle, the number of years of rattle-free enjoyment (who likes rattles?) delivered is inversely related to suspension harshness...
- jack
Need to check insurance rate for turbo (I'm over 50 w/safe driver).
Got Credit Union rate of 4.5%.
Be aware the sticker on window of 04 shows single CD changer, the black one I test drove had the 6 CD changer - so apparently window sticker info had not been updated for actual production model.
The car was much quicker than the 01 - keep in mind this is not only a turbo, but also DOHC instead of SOHC that 01 has. Had 98 Outback Limited wagon and that had the DOHC 2.5 (non-turbo of course). There is a definite plus power curve in the DOHC versus the SOHC both in the 98 and the 04.
Waiting for dealer to get car, its on trailer between Jacksonville, Florida and Newport News, Virginia.
04 has 140 MPH speedo, but expect governor to control as folks have stated here. Car seemed to be extremely light, but the tires may have been over inflated as some here have voiced.
Subarus have gotten a little expensive, but they are very well built and if you have a good dealer - Subaru of Jacksonville is one of top 20 Subaru dealers in the country (about 600 dealers in US). Phil Porter is the owner (he also owns a Subaru dealership in Connecticut) - you won't have any problems. My arguement has ALWAYS been the car (no matter what brand it is) is only as good as the dealer service.
By the way Subaru of Jacksonville has already DELIVERED 4 WRX STi's and have 1 in stock. Be aware they had it at $2,000 over sticker ($33,500) and they are like kids in a candy store and have added a killer sound system and special exhaust - sticker is now $38,500 and probably will go higher as they find more toys to add to this. Its Aspen White.
I don't work for Phil - just buy Subarus from him - this is our third one.
I can't wait for the 04 to get here hopefully before Friday (the 13th).
Will let you know when I get it and how it is after getting a few miles on it.
That's only scratching the surface. In most markets outside North America, you can get (in addition to those nifty folding armrests)"
A center armrest in the back seat;
A dual-range (2-speed) transfer case;
Self-leveling rear suspension to maintain height;
HID headlamps;
Headlight washers in the front bumper;
among other things. I think it borders on insanity to go to the expense of engineering these useful additions - and then deny them to the largest, most profitable market Subaru has.
I would like in particular the 2-speed transfer case. Besides its obvious value in off-roading, it would dramatically improve the Forester's ability to pull a boat, motor, and trailer out of the water and up a steep boat ramp without turning my 5-speed clutch into charcoal.
- jack, who wishes Subaru would let us have a crack at the good stuff, too!
My information says the triple-gauge Perf.GaugePack is still available. However, I decided against it because:
1. It's very expensive - $600 or thereabouts;
2. Besides the boost gauge I want, it includes a voltmeter I have no use for (though I'd like an ammeter) and an oil temp gauge when I'd probably prefer oil pressure;
3. It eliminates the dashtop storage cubby, where I might want to install something else, such as a GPS nav system, especially if I find one I like that is also portable from vehicle to vehicle.
So, because the boost gauge is what I REALLY wanted, I chose to spend $200 for the column-mounted unit, leaving the dashtop bin for other uses. So long as the column mounting doesn't block something important (like the low-fuel warning light or the bottom end of the fuel gauge) then I'm a happy camper.
I might try later to find a spot someplace for a small 2- or 3-gauge panel with oil pressure, amps, and maybe oil pressure.
- jack
Please share what you discover. I'm 59 with nothing chargeable in 15 years, but my agent had no XT-specific rating information available as of a week ago.
"Be aware the sticker on window of 04 shows single CD changer, the black one I test drove had the 6 CD changer - so apparently window sticker info had not been updated for actual production model."
I didn't look that closely at the sticker on the one I examined last week, but everything I've read, including cars101.com (an excellent Seattle dealer's website) indicates that the 6-disk changer is standard. I wish they hadn't dropped the cassette; I'll probably have to have one mounted in the glovebox. They at least should have made the CD player MP3-compatible in lieu of the cassette.
The car was much quicker than the 01 - keep in mind this is not only a turbo, but also DOHC instead of SOHC that 01 has."
Plus variable intake valve timing and drive-by-wire electronic throttle control...
"04 has 140 MPH speedo,"
Look closer...the highest number is 140, but the markings go all the way to 150. Anybody know of a really steep, long downhill with a strong tailwind?
"...but expect governor to control as folks have stated here."
That will really tick me off. While all prior U.S. Foresters have evidently had speed limiters, the WRX doesn't, and the STi doesn't, and Foresters sold elsewhere don't either (anybody know about Canada?). After denying us 5-speed buyers the sunroof and leather (both of which I would gladly have bought) they #@&$@#-well better not impose a speed limiter!
"By the way Subaru of Jacksonville has already DELIVERED 4 WRX STi's and have 1 in stock. Be aware they had it at $2,000 over sticker ($33,500) and they are like kids in a candy store and have added a killer sound system and special exhaust - sticker is now $38,500 and probably will go higher as they find more toys to add to this."
I regard this to be an unacceptable trade practice, and I will never purchase any auto from any dealer that attempts to compel buyers to pay for overpriced add-ons they don't specifically want.
- jack
Went up to our Subaru dealer last night and they have a Java Black Pearl XT with manual and a Silver XT with automatic...neither have leather though
Dawn
Bob
CD Tuner: 120 watt AM/FM/Weatherband 6-disc CD changer (most likely made by Clarion)
Front speakers: 6.3" diameter, 2.4" height, and 5.6" B.C. diameter (most likely 6.5" made by Panasonic)
Rear Speakers: 5.3" diameter, 1.8" height, and 4.6" B.C. diameter (most likely 5.25" made by Panasonic)
Tweeters: 1.4" diameter, 0.78" height (most likely made by Panasonic)
Subwoofer: 5.5" diameter (most likely made by Panasonic - I question this, as it would be an extremely small subwoofer)
It's been my experience that the stock components do not compare well with what I can buy on my own.
Hope this helps!
-Bob
Bob C: I think the XT uses the same audio components as the XS. If you go to Crutchfield's website, they'll have all of those specs available including which speakers are plug-n-play.
Ken
-Bob
-Brian
OK I'm going to answer all of the above questions in this thread since my prior posting
ballistic --------------------------------------
Sticker with 04 as described - the insurance was a great surprise - only $29 more every six months versus what was paid for the 01. I can't argue with that. BTW I have Nationwide I had to provide the VIN of the 04 before they could give me a solid quote.
Also you were right on all counts on the speedo it shows 140 but goes up another 10 MPH without figure at end. Don't count the Automatic out, I am very impressed with the way it goes and shifts it is NOT slow, again I'll know more after 1,500 miles :-).
I agree with you - ME NEITHER - not paying $2,000 over sticker, but in a way I can't blame the dealer, as this is the only one he has done this with and if you don't want to pay the price you don't have to. I think that if the person wants it they will pay it, and I'll bet once supply catches up with demand it will drift back down to normal (Remember 600 dealers and only 3000 scheduled to be built for 2004 model).
So far as the one they have sorta kept (will sell if someone offers to buy) they are playing with all sorts of toys on it, hey these guys are having fun building this thing and again if someone out there has more $ than brains - well so be it. BTW the radio (its a radio???) also has a DVD player built in and the screen is damn good size - about what the GPS unit looked like in the future Subaru cars - about 8" - 10". Not for me, but hey again more $ than brains...............
mcscully731 ---------------------------------
What did I pay - well the sticker (Honest real one on window was at $28,457) - I had the trade of the 01 which was a little upside down and I bought the extended Subaru warranty (Gold Plus) 5yr 100,000 no deductible - $1990 + $250 for turbo total w/ sales tax $2374.40 sales tax on trade difference was $900.00. With the other minor costs I financed $30,956 (4.5%) So if you go $30,956 - 28457 - 2374 - 900 = negative $775 which means In my personal opinion I was about $1,000 over what I intended to pay. I got Phil to throw in the Subaru car cover $100.00 retail after these numbers.......... Bottomline if I had had no trade (had 41,000 miles on 01 and new tires were close to being needed) I would have done better. He should net out a fair amount on the 01, but not till the last trade is down to cash will the real figure be known. The $1,000 I felt was over my figure? - Well the Subaru dealer we had before Phil was the pits... To me the dealer service is worth the extra.... they have the best service of any car dealership I have bought from in the last 20+ years. Now if I ever have no trade then its $500 over invoice.... This is one dealer i want to see stay in business - My Humble 2 cents worth.
And don't buy one till you test drive the Automatic, it will surprise you..........
forestergump ----------------------------------
You hit it on the head -
"I think I remember when I checked out the XT at the Chicago Auto Show that there was a speaker fitting for the subwoofer in the rear cargo area side panel under the driver's side rear window." ITS THERE...........
Hope I caught everyones questions - Have to hit sack so I can get up to go to work (Have to pay for this thing somehow :-).
Only have 32 miles I put on it coming home from the dealer. Will report more as I find (discover) new things and I'll watch this column and if anyone has any questions I try to answer them.........
BTW
Sticker was
With Automatic $25,770.00
Premium Leather/Moon Roof 1,750.00
Popular Equipment Group 7
(Auto dimming Mirror/Compass &
Security System Upgrade) 387.00
Destination & Delivery 550.00
----------
Total $28,457.00
Mileage for Automatic is City - 19 & Highway - 23 on window sticker
Hope this helps........ will catch everyone later........
Dont worry about acceleration issues...we will let the car mags burn up their test vehicles for that..you break that turbo in nice and easy! your enthusiasm for the auto tranny has got me second guessing. ill keep thinking on it while you and jack give us the comparison reports!
BTW..I am sooooo envious!
Mark