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Comments
Ditto on the envy -- I'm super jealous!
Have you driven a non-turbo Forester for comparison? Please keep us updated on your impressions.
Ken
That is astonishing! The collision coverage alone, based on the newer vehicle's much higher replacement value, ought to account for more than that! I'm still a little worried about what State Farm will sock me, but you've given hope to an old skinfint.
"Also you were right on all counts on the speedo it shows 140 but goes up another 10 MPH without figure at end. Don't count the Automatic out, I am very impressed with the way it goes and shifts it is NOT slow, again I'll know more after 1,500 miles :-)."
One burning unanswered question - whether or not XTs will have speed limiters. In your 32 miles home from the dealer, did you hit the governor? <just joking, no owner would do that in his brand new XT>.
"I agree with you - ME NEITHER - not paying $2,000 over sticker, but in a way I can't blame the dealer,"
I've always felt the manufacturers ought to have the right to set MSRP at what they think the car should sell for and then impose that on dealers. Otherwise consumers are completely at the mercy of stick-up artists.
"fitting for the subwoofer in the rear cargo area side panel under the driver's side rear window." ITS THERE."
Does it intrude at all into the cargo area, and/or does it eliminate any of the storage cubbies back there? I wonder what was gained by moving out from under the seat and back there (other than maybe a few pounds off the front wheels and shifted rearward to lessen the XT's additional nose-heaviness).
As you and I have both seen, the EPA ratings for an automatic XT are 19/23. I wish like heck somebody would come across a 5-speed XT and clue us in as to its EPA ratings. I'm hoping for at least 20/25.
I bought a service manual (on CD) via eBay for the '03 X/XS a few days ago. It won't be accurate for anything about the XT's engine, but it ought to be useful for nearly everything else.
Congrats on your new baby! A famous old '50s automotive writer for Mechanix Illustrated, Tom McCahill, once was asked about the common bromide that cars broken in quickly and hard will be faster than than cars broken in slowly. McCahill's reply, which aligned perfectly with my father's (who was the best mechanic I've ever known) was "A car broken in quickly will run fast faster - but a car broken in slowly will run even faster - and longer." I've always advocated long, gentle, progressive break-ins no matter what the manufacturer says. The mfr is off the hook after the warranty expires; the owner is on the hook for as long as he owns the car. For me, and for my XT, that will probably be at least 150,000 miles. I will resist all temptations to rush the break-in.
- jack
Basically, he says (after complete warm-up) run your new engine harder than the manufacturers recommend, especially during the first 20 miles. Not just to increase HP, but to improve ring seat and therefore engine life.
I and others are undecided about it as is mentioned in a discussion on the subject:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36- - 9925
We need some long-term guinea pigs... I mean testers... to help settle the matter.
-tom (don't shoot the messenger
Basically, he says (after complete warm-up) run your new engine harder than the manufacturers recommend, especially during the first 20 miles. Not just to increase HP, but to improve ring seat and therefore engine life."
Each owner will have to consider all these competing recommendations and decide for himself. Personally, I put more credence into the recommendation of the vehicle manufacturer (who will, after all, be responsible for any claims throughout the powertrain warranty)than to recommendations from 3rd parties who won't contribute a cent to my repair bills if their advice is faulty.
Throughout the vehicle, there are rubbing or rotating components that (IMO) benefit from a break-in that progresses from gentle to normal - clutch facing, brake pads, rings, gears, bushings, bearings, CV joints, the works.
I know a few people who had major problems with Mazda rotaries. I broke in my early '79 RX-7 progressing from very gentle to (eventually,about 3000 miles later) normal driving. I then put nearly 200,000 of the hardest, most enjoyable, living-at-the-redline miles imaginable on that car. It was well maintained, but the engine internals were never touched, and it was still happily running "as new" when I finally parted with it ten years later because my family expanded to three. YMMV.
- jack
Thanks for the info.
john
Still no XTs at Fitzgerald. They never get stuff early on.
-juice
The Woofer in the rear is flush in the panel.......
Gotta go back to work at lunch more later keep questions coming....
(anxiously awaiting to get a java black XT premium in less than 6 months when my IMBA VIP eligiblity is in effect) :-)
-Brian
I can tell you it is THE smoothest new Subaru I have EVER driven (4th new one since 1998). And I've test driven many more new Subarus in that time span too. I know I'm talking too much on this Automatic, but I think when everyone else tries it they will see (FEEL) what I mean. BTW I going to put at least 80 miles on it tonight so I'll let you know more................ Our other Subaru is a 2002 VDC Sedan - I thought that moved pretty good (its 210 HP H6 w/K&N air filter), but this XT is IMHO even quicker (and it is not even broken in yet). I know the 5 speed will be snappy, but try the Automatic too...............................it will surprise you........
The rep informed me that the SOA website will be updated on 6/27 -- however I seriously doubt they'll have much detailed info on the tranny.
Ken
The smoothness is also good, some turbos are really peaky.
-juice
Thanks for the info. john "
I haven't purchased it quite yet - it should be (better be!) here in the next two weeks.
Carr Subaru on Canyon in Beaverton, just west of Portland. www.carr.subaru.com , where you can see that the black automatic XT I inspected a week ago is on hand and available.
My contact is their Internet Fleet Sales Manager, Ken Eby. His e-mail address is keby@carrauto.com . He might appreciate knowing the referral came from me. Good luck - Jack Brown
-Bob
Yesterday I googled new-car shopping sites to see whether any of them have any XT specs that I haven't already seen. Can't put my finger on the link, but I found a site that listed the gearset ratios for the XT 5-speed. I've been hoping that 4th might move a bit toward 5th to reduce the huge 39% step-up (or 28% rpm drop) between 4th and 5th. No such luck. If the ratios listed on the site are correct, the XT's 5-speed has exactly the same ratios as the '03 X/XS. That may or may not mean there has been no other change to the transmission (e.g. beefing it up).
Also found (on msn.com's auto site) numbers on Forester demographics - again, no idea whether they're correct. I keep hearing claims that 2/3 of Forester buyers are women. Is there an authoritative source for that? According to the MSN site, the actual ratio is 55% men / 45% women. Not that it matters; I'd buy my XT even if I were the only guy driving one. The MSN site also says the average Forester buyer is 50! I'll single-handedly boost that statistic...
- jack
Let us know if you find that link again. I've tried Googling for any Forester XT info, but all the ones I get are from the UK.
I think I've also heard that there are more women buyers of the Forester. If anything I'd believe a 55:45 female:male ratio and not the other way around.
Ken
http://www.cars.com/carsapp/autoshowny/?szc=97219&year=2003&a- mp;srv=dealer&act=ncbssrch&sb=dst&sk=name&so=asc&- amp;fs=&rd=100&ddrd=30&config=t&rt=quick_ncbs.tmp- l&referrer=configurator&trf=hmpg&mkid=45&zc=97219- &x=16&y=13
If that doesn't work, the site is www.cars.com . Select new cars, Subaru, 2004, then Forester. Click on Standard Equipment. A scrolling window opens. Scroll WAY down to Specifications and Dimensions. There you'll see the trans ratios, which are exactly what I've seen published for the '03 X/XS. Ditto the 4.11 final drive ratio.
They list the XT's curb weight at 3,210 lbs. The same site lists the XS curb wt as 3,095. The difference is 115 pounds - exactly what Edmunds' First Drive said the XT's weight gain is, so both sources seem to be on the same page.
- jack
Ken
Off to chat, but only briefly; strong thunderstorms in area.
Ed
That does it. We have people spread out all over. Every single sighting, and every single delivery, has been of XT automatics. What is the obvious explanation that we've all been missing?
It's obviously a big lie that the XT will be available with a stick. Subaru has really pulled one over on us. They probably bribed Edmonds to help maintain the ruse by claiming they drove a MT when it actually was a slushbox.
I'm gonna sue for false representation.
- jb
They have 3 XT's all together, at least showing up online. 2 AT, 1 MT.
-Brian
I'll believe it when somebody from this group goes there and eyeballs it. And even if it turns out to be real, this obviously is a malicious conspiracy. Subaru so desperately wants everybody to pay extra for automatics that the only 5-speed anywhere in the entire USA is - are you ready for this - Sierra Gold! They know pefectly well that nobody's going to actually buy one in that color, so they can safely build exactly one MT XT, paint it gold, and relax knowing that every XT they actually sell will have the automatic, while they've deftly immunized themselves from any truth-in-advertising claim.
I tell you, it's all a nefarious plot.
- jb, whose impatience is out of control
Any good volume discount dealers in areas that HAVE the car?
Also, my gut feeling is that far more customers will prefer the automatic, just as they do with big honkin' V8s.
Bob
However we had to go to Georgia last night. Had 4 adults and 1 child in the car. Pick up and passing was still outstanding (almost like only driver with no passengers). BTW my tires were at 47 lbs cold so dealer prep missed setting correct pressure. Did first fillup and mileage was 18 MPG. I'm not too concerned (yet) at car only had 180 miles at the first fillup. The tank was full on delivery. Premium is mandatory (so be it). Will have chance to look at manual on Automatic transmission tonight. Can't believe how thick the manual is. Also be aware if you are dealing with the dealer on one of these get the Splash Guards, they are no longer standard. I didn't and I'm getting a set (color matched) for $124.95 plus tax. If I can't sweet talk the owner to free install for this price, no sweat I'll put them on myself. The cargo tray is not included either and that's about $75.00. I may get that later, to me the Splash Guards are mandatory.
More later.............
The XT will have a far greater proportion of males, who seek out higher performance models and can generally afford them. I bet it would be about 40/60 in favor of male ownership for the turbo only.
jb: I'm with you, I love a good conspiracy theory! Prove it Subaru, send one to my house please! Silver. Hurry.
-juice
I am amazed that dealers don't pay more attention to this. Sending a prospective customer out on a test drive with 45-50 psi in the tires is not the way to impress people with the vehicle's ride qualities.
I assume you've dropped them back to 30/28 or thereabouts. How much difference did that make in the too-light steering, or the amount of road noise transmitted into the cabin, and so forth?
As I recall, you're 6'5" or so. Howinheck did you manage to get an adult into the seat behind you? I'm only 5'11" and when I set the front seat for my liking (nearly all the way back), I can barely squeeze into the back.
Several people in another forum have noticed that the next-gen Legacy with automatic has a pushbutton labeled "ECO" on the console next to the shifter. They've asked whether the automatic 2.5 turbo Forester has that. What say you?
- jack
John
I agree with chassol as far as the XT's automatic is concerned. I test drove one last weekend, and the 4EAT is unlike any of Subaru's other automatics. Super-smooth shifts without the dreaded lag, and I felt no noticeable let-up in the power curve.
Also, I read somewhere (one of SoA's press releases?) that rapid use of the accelerator kicks the 4EAT into "power" or "performance" mode. I guess this would serve the same purpose as having the "ECO" and "POWER" switch next to the gear selector?
Finally! My kinda gal!
"I agree with chassol as far as the XT's automatic is concerned."
Well, except for that. I guess everybody's entitled to one little fault...
- jack
Bob
The 5-speed I drove was silver. It had the rear bumper step pad, mud flaps, armrest extension & cargo net; and the MSRP was just over $26K.
The engine is great. I didn't detect any turbo lag, but the power DOES build with revs. It was a hoot running it through the gears. Before you know it your doing 80 mph.
Bob
And, how about doing a test of the AT for us? ;-)
-Brian
ballistic - Sure did lower the tire pressure and it made a BIG difference - also I run my tires a little high usually 30 - 32 lbs in front and rear. I do a lot of Interstate driving, so thats why i do it.
Put gas in again this time 21.3 MPG... getting better.......only 300 miles 1200 to go. Also - I plan on doing an oil and filter change at 1500 miles (old school). I do my own and I use Fram's top filter (WalMart $9.97) and Castrol Syntec 10-40. (Oil cap shows use 5-30, so I'm going to check the usable range in the owners manual - Being summer in the South I like the higher weight oil, but will do as manual reads allowable. Also want to use a K&N Air Filter, it makes a big difference in the 2002 VDC and, if available, should on this Forester too.....
Well time to get the owners manual out and start reading......................
Page 7-18 Maximum speeds XT in 1st gear - 39 - 2nd gear 73 - 3rd gear 118. OK - 118 maximum 3rd gear where is the governor factor at 114 or whatever the hundred teen number that has been bounced around. - NO OTHER INFO on the questions we all have on direct drive etc...........
More later, I'm still reading.........
The only difference was this one had NJ manufacturer's tags! Whoever was driving this was from SOA!
Geez... The stars are in alignment tonight.
Bob
The power came on smoothly up to about 4K rpm with very little detectable turbo lag. Once it hits 4K rpm, the engine begins pulling very hard and before I knew it, I was at 80MPH. I got a kick out of seeing the hood scoop out of a Forester window -- nice.
The best way to describe the power delivery on the XT is that it felt like an auto WRX but without the "step function". Perhaps it was the lack of this abruptness or the fact that the turbo spool up was not nearly as audible as with the WRXs that the XT didn't feel fast. You roll on the accelerator and it just smoothly powers up to 80MPH. I know auto WRX drivers will be very jealous of it's low-end torque.
The suspension really didn't feel much different from other Foresters. I wasn't expecting anything new since it appears the XT gets the same tuning as the non-turbo models.
The interior fabric was nice. The black/grey combination is not as dark as you would think in daylight. This test drive was the first time I actually drove the newly redesigned Forester and I must say I was very pleased. I really liked the lumbar support on the driver seat -- very comfortable.
The new subwoofer in the cargo area adds more depth to the sound compared to the previous under-the-seat units. I also really like the placement of the tweeters -- right in that triangle by the side mirrors.
Okay, now for the downside -- despite the smooth power delivery, the auto XT didn't excite me. Perhaps it was the fact that it only had 24 miles on the odo and the 4EAT wasn't broken in yet, but I was hoping for a more adrenaline pumping rush of power. What I really would like to get my hands on is a 5-speed. If the difference between the auto and 5-speed is anywhere close to what it is in the WRX, the XT 5-speed will be one hoot to drive.
Ken
These XT test drives seem to confirm that they've smoothed out the powerbands on the new 2.5 motor.
I guess my rationale for the XT is the mega moonroof and it's a wagon, making it still versatile for a family with 2 kids. The WRX sedan is the only one available with a moonroof. While I did find the WRX sedan to seem bigger on the inside than it appeared, I just can't justify a small sedan w/ 2 kids in carseats.
This certainly stirs the pot a bit, I'll have to drive one myself I guess. :-)
-Brian
I guess the &@#%$ stars must all be aligned over the &@#%$ east coast, because there sure aren't any lined up over Portland! One of those silver 5-speeds is probably mine, shipped by mistake to the wrong &@#%$ coast! <grumble>
chassol says "Sure did lower the tire pressure and it made a BIG difference - also I run my tires a little high usually 30 - 32 lbs in front and rear."
Did you mean 32 front, 30 rear? That's what I plan to use for starters. What differences did you observe? Did the steering feel any less overboosted? Any difference in road noise transmitted to the interior? How different is the ride over over pavement irregularities? Did lowering the pressure still leave your XT with sharp, responsive handling, or do the lower pressures take the edge off?
"Put gas in again this time 21.3 MPG... getting better......."
21.3 is going in the right direction, but this tank was mostly freeway driving, right? When you change your oil, how about confirming whether the XT has a magnetic crankcase drain plug (to attract and hold any ferrous particles). Some sources indicate that Subaru preinstalls magnetic plugs everywhere (engine, gearbox, differentials). I've always thought they were a great idea.
"Page 7-18 Maximum speeds XT in 1st gear - 39 - 2nd gear 73 - 3rd gear 118. OK - 118 maximum 3rd gear where is the governor factor at 114 or whatever"
Well, now, that's very good news. Wow - 118 in 3rd with a gear to go!
My calculations for the 5-speed at the 6500RPM redline with 4:11 final drive are:
1st (3.454) = 35.6
2nd (2.062) = 59.7
3rd (1.448) = 85.0
4th (1.088) = 113.1
5th (0.780) = 157.8 (theoretical)
My estimate of the XT's true max = 134 @ 5500 (drag limited). This is based in part on several European tests of the 2-liter Forester S turbo which (with 177bhp and manual box) attained a true 125.
With just a very slight over-rev, the XT will be able to reach a true 60mph with only one gearchange...sub-6sec runs ought to be possible without excessive brutality, given its abundant low-end and midrange punch compared to the WRX.
If my car doesn't arrive soon, I'm going to over-obsess myself right into a straitjacket.
- jack
Hey, Silke, Ken, Bob and others, who is going to be the first to test-drive both an AT and a manual transmission, for comparison? (Although I am pretty sure I want the manual )
- D.
Bob
allhorizon - I agree that someone here needs to do a side-by-side comparo of the AT and the manual. Personally, I will most likely buy the AT though, because I MUST have that moonroof...
On a different note, has anyone here been following the mass hysteria over in the STi forum on NASIOC regarding the engine knock/detonation problem? I'm just wondering whether that should concern us prospective turbo Forester buyers, as the XT shares the 2.5l block with the STi.
I know that, aside from the actual block, most other internals are different in the Forester, and that it is also tuned much more conservatively. However, I can't help but be a little paranoid, since nobody seems to be able to point to the cause of the problem yet. Speculations are running rampant at this point, ranging from a faulty combustion chamber design to a malfunctioning knock sensor and ECU with too short a memory to compensate for the recurring detonations.
I'm not too much of a gearhead, so I'm curious to hear what you guys think of this. As far as the STi is concerned, there may be a massive recall on the horizon if SoA doesn't manage to shift blame on the drivers (which they will undoubtedly try first)...
The red XT AT was a premium, the black XT AT was just a 'normal' one. The java black in sunlight was nice, red would be fine as well. Too bad there is no dark blue. The gold one isn't my taste, but I bet it sells quickly since it has the MT.
No brochures either! How can they have product but no literature on 'em?
-Brian
I'm envious that you guys have even test driven them! I gotta get my wife to White Flint, and then side-step outta there for half hour. Fitzgerald Subaru is right next door.
Engine sound great. Bob seemed far more impressed than Ken, and both have 2.5l Foresters now. But hmm, Bob has an auto now, so the difference might seem exaggerated.
-juice
juice -- You have to join the club! ;-) I didn't want to make it sound like the AT wasn't any fun -- just it didn't have the "woweee!" factor. Again, I attribute it partially to the fact that TCU probably hasn't really adapted to any type of spirited driving.
Ken
There was a slight, buzzy rattle from the overhead console or windshield header area - will probably be caught by the pre-delivery prep.
The steering is still very light at low speeds, seems better on the highway. Not something I can't get used to. I didn't have my tire gauge, so I was unable to check pressures.
The brake pedal feel is a little softer than I'd like; I prefer less "give" once the brakes begin to engage. No big deal.
The ride and handling felt nice and tight, very well controlled, without any harshness. Very satisfactory.
The subwoofer doesn't intrude into the load area, BUT it does eliminate the left-hand cubbyhole. I still don't know what was gained by moving it back there from under the seat. I didn't turn the radio on because I was concentrating on other things, so I can't comment on the audio quality.
The airscoop looks smallish from outsite, but from behind the wheel it looks large! I can't imagine sitting behind the STi's monster scoop, especially if a driver is short.
And now for the engine...
Very responsive to the throttle; a little soft from a standstill for the first 3/4 second or so, then a nice rush. Not quite the push-you-back-into-the-seat sensation I was expecting, but very satisfying nonetheless. Because this was an impromptu drive, I didn't have my stopwatch, so I can't give any figures. I'd guess 0-60 in the automatic will be around 7 seconds - maybe a little less if you preload the torque converter to the max before launch.
Tne engine idles quietly and with only a slight vibration. It seems smooth and quiet in normal driving. Under wide open throttle, it sounds (to me) different from (better than) an X/XS. Bear in mind my test drives of those were several weeks ago, but as the XT engine crosses about 3000RPM under full throttle it takes on a hard, urgent, very mechanical note - not excessivly loud, just right! I loved that sound! Waaaay better than the radio could possibly provide!
Even when left in Drive, under full throttle the automatic surprised me by shifting right at the 6500 redline, with a very satisfyingly quick and firm shiftchange. I redlined it in first and second, but not, alas, 3rd (there wasn't enough freeway to hit 118!...) If you like automatics, you're going to love this one.
Assuming the new engine turns out to be satisfactorily reliable and not too much of a gas-hog, I don't know how any buyer is going to be unhappy with his XT. At the price, and given its wide-ranging versatility, I don't know how they could improve on it. Well, maybe 1 or 2" more backseat kneeroom...
- jack
Your priorities are WAY out of whack... (-;
- jb
Man, you kind of drove the snot out of that thing. Any noticeable turbo noise?
-Brian