I can't tell you how many people I see driving around in rainy weather with foggy windshields because they either 1) Don't have the AC on 2) Have it on recirculating instead of fresh 3) Both (we're talking non-auto climate control vehicles).
On many cars, including the very popular Accords and Camrys, the defroster mode will not work unless the AC is on and the air is fresh.
My coworker has driven an Accord for seven years and did not know this. He thought Honda just had a bad defroster system until I showed he was wrong. Don't dealers explain these things upon delivery?
I would bet that's what is to blame for the accident mentioned above. Especially since the girl was 16 - she probably had no idea how to clear up the windows and thought just putting on the defroster would work.
You should note that the press release says the windshield fog got worse when she used defrost.
Exactly the experience I had, repeatedly, in my new 92 LS400. The 92 locked the A/C out at 34F OAT.
Almost all modern day (say 1985 and on) vehicles automatically activate the A/C in defrost/defog/demist mode. Such activation may very well have led directly to the young lady's problem. If she had previously used the A/C, (in a Lexus possibly even a few days before)maybe even unknowingly in defrost/defog/demist mode, the later incident of windshield fogging may have been the result of the A/C's earlier use.
Once the A/C is used a thin film of moisture will always remain on the surfaces of the A/C evaporator, like a time bomb.
The lower the ambient temperature is, the less efficient the A/C will be in "drying" that fresh incoming airflow, until at about 34F it's non-existant.
Hardly a good example of an engineering defect, no matter who made the HVAC system.
Tragic case of a 16 yr old not knowing to pull over and FIX the visibility problem and NOT keep driving at the same time. I would think with the weather in CT her Dad or somebody should have instructed her how to set the defrost CORRECTLY.
When I was about 20 and driving my sister's prized '66 TR4-A, I was stopped at a light and got rear-ended. The young girl's excuse? "My glasses were falling off so I reached up to fix them and they fell off so I was looking down at the floor to find them." Uh, ok.
That when she activated the defrost/defog/demist functionality the A/C didn't come on but the system automatically went to max heat and max blower and "fresh".
In late 1991 I was 51 years old, with 44 years of driving experience, and absolutely couldn't figure out how to make my 92 LS400 climate control system defog the windshield and keep it defogged.
Sitting in their nice cosy offices in Japan no engineer is going to have any idea how serious the matter is when I activate the defrost/defog/demist function in my car. Absent that capability what they should do is make the maximum effort to resolve my circumstance. Maximum heat and max blower, and then let me modulate those downward as I see fit.
In the meantime my LS now has a switch that fools the ECU into thinking it just got damn cold in the car when I activate defrost/defog/demist.
And unless they can figure a way to quickly and thoroughly dry the vanes of these very complex and dense modern day evaporators soon after I stop using the A/C then it should never be used in defog mode.
The first time it happened to me I was near the top of Snoqualmie Pass in a snowstorm in the left lane with other vehicles to my right. My quick judgement, apparently, at the time was that it was safest to try and maintain my position within my lane while simulatneously trying to clear the windshield. It only began to clear once I thought to lower a rear window.
The second time I was doing about 65 MPH on I5 in Tacoma southbound in the left lane with traffic all about. In that case I watched the nearby jersey barrier through the left window to maintain my lane position.
..the fastest way to defrost the windshield was to enable the A/C in fresh air mode, with highest heat, move forced air flow to the windshield, and open a window a bit on each side of the vehicle to help the humid air exit.
Depending on how much air the fan could move on "high", this has always Taken Care of The Problem in under a minute, more likely in less than half-a-minute. No matter what Pass I was driving through.
I'm probably confused and in way over my head on this topic...but is this pretty much the procedure you are describing as "The Fix" to the supposed Lexus/Denso HVAC engineering defect?
New less efficient refrigerant along with manufacturer's desire for quietness and comfort has led to today's A/C evaporator being very dense and complex.
In a test I did, the 1992 LS400 evaporator held about a quart of water, as a very thin film of moisture, on its 10,000 square inches of surface area for more than two days. Sitting out in the open in the middle of a three bay garage with the average humdity at 40 to 50%
On my drive to the pass theh A/C operated until I reached a point wherein the outside temperature declined to about 34F, the point where the ECU shuts the A/C compressor off, opens the clutch circuit until the OAT rises again. After that the previously condensed "trapped" moisture was able to start evaporating into the car's incoming airstream.
In the meantime of course the interior surface of the windshield was growing colder and colder due to the outside cold airflow impinging at ~65MPH.
At some point I noticed that there were small wisps of condensation forming on the lower corners of the windshield and accordingly I activated the defrost function.
BLAM!
Suddenly my windshield was fully coated with fog and I had no forward visibility.
I turned up the blower. Things got worse.
I started toggling the heat setpoint upwards.
The small wisps of condensation that triggered the event was the result of "leakage" airflow from the defrost vents. Once I activated defrost then ALL of the HUMID airflow from the system was routed to my cold windshield surface.
Faster blower, MORE humid airflow.
I agree that the A/C can be of great help in defogging windshields and windows when the ambient is above 50F. I don't know what to say or do about these modern day systems with dense and complex A/C evaporators that hold moisture for days on end.
In the meantime I feel the safest thing to do is disable the A/C altogether during the winter months and remember to ALWAYS turn up the blower and the heat before activating the defrost function.
Toyota and Lexus climate control systems (NipponDenso, Denso US), once the cabin atmosphere has reached or is very close to the temperature setpoint, rely EXCLUSIVELY on the ability of the A/C to dehumidify the system airflow and thereby prevent windshield condensation or remove condensed moisture in defrost/defog/demist mode.
As the OAT declines below about 50F the ability of an A/C system to dehumidify the incoming air stream declines precipitously until near freezing where it is non-existant.
At the lower incoming air flow temperatures the A/C compressor circuit is even locked out and still T/L does not see fit to bring heating into play.
That could be just about the right timing for having first used the defrost/defog/demist functionality to clear the windshield, have it work successfully, return the system to normal, and then a short time later, say seven minutes, have the fogging occur once again due to the A/C compressor having been automatically shut off when leaving defrost mode.
And by through my own experience I can tell you that the second fogging incident of the day is ALWAYS much worse than the first. In my case the first was simply "activate defrost, windshield clears virtually immediately, return the system to normal operation". But now you have just "primed the pump", the evaporator surfaces are definitely now well covered with moisture.
Apparently, you and the CT 16-year old the only two people in the country with this problem.
Why aren't dozens of other folks, some that drive thru The Same Pass in The Same Japanese Vehicles, having the same KDP ("Killer Defrost Problem")?
If they did, I'm guessing that po' old dense Denso (sorry, couldn't help myself) engineer sitting in his Tokyo cubicle would have to hop a fast freight, drive The Pass, and discover KDP in all its glory.
The bottom line is that A/C, with heat & fresh air input, directed to the windshield, plus a window or two cracked open, solves this situation.
You lost the lawsuit on this topic and you keep reviving it in this forum. Guess that's understandable.
Hey, let's move up a few years, what happened to your contention last year about the CO2 concentration inside Lexus vehicles being poisionous because they don't pull in enough fresh air or something along those lines? Any AP stories on mysterious deaths among the Lexus owners? Not enough poison to stop you from buying your 4th or 5th Lexus?
Actually, if CO2 was present, that would explain some of your posts (:o)! LOL just kidding don't mean anything by it just a sad attempt at humor
But keep in the back of your mind the fact that these vehicles have very little air "outflow", and with 4 or 5 people inside you just might begin to have that stuffy feeling due to lack of enough oxygen.
"The bottom line is that A/C, with heat and fresh air input, directed to the windshield, plus a window or two cracked open, solves this problem."
Let's see, Toyota and Lexus disable the A/C ciruit, FULLY, below certain temperatures, not that it would be usefull anyway. And even with the A/C fully disabled they do not use heating to the windshield. Even their own manuals indicate that the airflow to the windshield in defrost mode can be up to 20F cooler than the heating airflow to the footwell outlets.
But the real bottom line is that when I buy a vehicle of/in this class I have a perfect right to expect not to have to go to extra measures (outside of extreme circumstances) to get features to work properly, especially features that worked well, and as expected, on cars of lower class and less expense.
That 16 year old may have been inexperienced, but she did exactly what most of us would do in the circumstance. Who among us wouldn't become confused and/or puzzled if the windshield became suddenly more fogged over upon activating the defrost function?
At the ripe old age of 16 would either you or I have known what to try next? I think not.
A real tragedy, with one young person dead and three more injured, one seriously. An inexperienced 16-yr old driver now full of guilt, fumbling around an unfamiliar dash layout, edging closer to the shoulder to keep away from oncoming headlight glare in the fog...bad news all around.
I still want to know why, after driving the vehicle many(?) miles, the windshield started to fog over and then when the defrost was activated the condition suddenly got worse.
Our focus should be on why the defrost function didn't work as all of us have reason to expect, not the immaturity and/or lack of life's experience of the driver.
I suggest that the moisture was mostly on the outside of the window. They were 20 miles from the Atlantic Ocean on a Connecticut Autumn night. Moisture could easily condense on the outside of the windshield. Driving would have exacerbated this problem, and it would have gotten worse, as she described. Turning on the defroster would not solve that particular problem. By the time she realized that the wipers were needed, she was already upon the pedestrians.
She turned on her wipers and "the next thing she heard was a large thud...." (see below)
"The teen put on her windshield wipers to be able to see the oncoming car lights and road lines, according to the warrant. "The next thing she heard was a large thud from the front corner of her vehicle," the warrant said.
If you read both press stories it seems all too obvious that the problem was fogging on the inside of the windshield.
I have had condensation form on the outside surface of my windshield but it was a very humid July evening near Birmingham Alabama, had just driven through a rainstorm, and we had driven all afternoon of a very hot day without realizing that the A/C was on and the system was inadvertantly partially in defrost mode.
A Porsche 996 design flaw.
I just can't imagine that happening in Conn. as late as the 28th of Sept. and as late as 11PM.
Tongue in cheek remark? Yikes. The inexperienced, lethal teen kills two because of driving a vehicle unfit to proceed. Pedestrians don't deserve death walking near highway with drivers such as this. Some might call this an "accident", but it is really not too different than "driving under influence". I'm sorry, but the excuse of "couldn't get window fog under control" doesn't cut it.
But I truly believe it was more the fault of the vehicle manufacturer than it was the girl. When you activate the defrost function the fogging condition should quickly start to clear up, not get worse.
"There but for a stroke of luck go I".
The circumstances are exactly as I have encountered too many times back in late 91 and early 92 in my then new 92 LS400. And I was extremely lucky in that it never happened to me at night.
Before you're too quick to criticize the girl take a few moments and think about what your first action/reaction would be if your headlights suddenly failed on a dark night.
Pull to the right to stop, maybe?
Or would you first check to make sure you hadn't bumped the light switch off?
But in the above case I would bet that the A/C compressor circuit was opened by the control system just a few minutes before the accident.
"But I truly believe it was more the fault of the vehicle manufacturer than it was the girl."
Thanks for summing-up the intelligence level of your position on this matter. Please go back to posting boring letters you've sent to Lexus Customer Relations about defective AWD systems or if chains fit or why the factory can't wire the heated seats properly.
Right, let's just forget any personal responsibility for our own actions; instead, let's just blame the vehicle manufacturer.
She drove BLIND for seven minutes. Yup, sue GM.
Uh...by the way...speaking of personal responsibilities...remember earlier today, in post #153, when Kreskin somehow KNEW the real reason behind the accident - "...but you can bet the HVAC design was by Denso."
Care to offer any apology to our Denso engineer buddy in that cubicle in Tokyo?
Over time, everyone on these boards learns to skip past certain posts. Until Edmunds implements an optional filter, I think the host's advice, just use the down arrow, makes a lot of sense.
To paraphrase the cliche about wrestling with pigs, when you get in a flame war with another poster whose posts reflect points of view that are (to be polite) odd, you both get dirty and only the other poster enjoys it.
If you skim other Edmunds forums, you'll see that Willard (wwest) spends an awful lot of time posting "definitive" information. That seems to be his thing. Very casual readers of these boards may be confused by some of what he says. But, over time or if anyone reads multiple wwest posts, I think they get the picture.
It got progressively worse as they drove. The defroster was not the problem. Again, I suggest that the moisture collecting on the outside of the window is the cause. She turned on her wipers "to be able to see the oncoming car lights and road lines"...
...or is it the dreaded "right turn"? Perhaps her parents should sue Connecticut/Denso for designing right turns that cause increased windshield fogging. There's just as much evidence to support that claim.
"as they were driving the front windshield was fogged up, and it was difficult to see through it"
"As she drove up the road her front windshield began to fog up"
"Jarzabek stated that she then made a right turn, and the windshield began to fog up even more"
"she slowed down and looked down to activate the front defroster," the warrant said. "She then reported that as she looked back through the front window she noticed that the fog was even worse"
"The teen put on her windshield wipers to be able to see the oncoming car lights and road lines", according to the warrant. "The next thing she heard was a large thud from the front corner of her vehicle"
the thing to do is contact Hope Seeley and get the full and real story and volunteer my services as an expert on the OBVIOUS flaws in modern day automotive climate control systems.
Make sure to tell her that OBVIOUS flaw (I meant fact) while voluteering, ahem, limited expertise.
"Mr. West, please tell the court of all the '97 GMC Suburbans you've owned."
"Oh...Please, then, tell the court how many GMC trucks you've owned"?
"Oh really, well then, Ms. Jarzabek stated that she made a right turn, and the windshield began to fog up even more. Please explain how turning right causes windshields to fog up?
No further questions, your honor, the prosecution rests.
I'd like to read reports from any 330rx drivers regarding blind spot problems, soggy downshifting transmission etc. Also, any good comments and observations.
Just took a look at a new RX330. I was surprised that it really wasn't that much different from the 300. Also, I thought the extra wood and metal looked a bit over done! To me, the 300 has a more elegant presentation due to its simpler interior appointments. I'm still leaning toward a 300. Anyone get a price in the 34.5k range in PA/OH as I've seen posted here?
Went in to our local Lexus dealer on Monday to look at the RX330. They had had an "event" the previous Thursday evening to introduce it that we were unable to go to. It turned out the the car they had for the event was a prototype that has been getting trucked from dealer to dealer and was no longer there. The sales guy tried to sell us on the '03 RX300 by saying they would be making "spectacular" deals to clear out their remaining 15 or 20. We took one out for a drive, and I found the ride to be too soft and spongy for my tastes.
When we got back, a truck was in the process of unloading 5 new RX330's. 4 were already sold and one was tagged as a dealer demo. We liked the looks (the bird's eye maple in the tan interior is gorgeous), and asked them to call us when the demo was prepped and ready to drive.
Tuesday evening we went back to drive it. I liked it much better than the 300. It was much less spongy and handled much better. Acceleration was very good, as was cornering (it had the optional 18" wheels). I still liked the ride of the FX-35 non-sport better, but it's for my wife and she likes the RX330 better.
They told me that they already had 30-40 names on the wait list, and that the price was full MSRP (which I expected). As we are in no particular hurry, we'll wait until the initial furor dies down and then go get one.
We took delivery of our 330 yesterday (nav/ML pkg, Tow, 18" wheels, & HH). The visibility wasn't a problem, the rearview camera and downward outside mirrors worked great when reversing, and it had plenty of zip when accelerating. So far the only negatives have been the roof rack rail popping up on one end and more air/road noise than I'd have expected. I can't compare it to the 300's but it compares very favorably to the 2000 M-B ML 430 we traded in for it, both in performance and most definitely in the ergometrics and quality of the interior, especially the seats. The vehicle has so many features that the operators manual is telephone-book size ! later, ldf
I'm surprised about the comment of air/road noise. Lexus prides itself on quietness. Maybe a minor open air vent, something didn't fit right or there was a slight open window or door not completely shut.
The roof rack rail popping up sounds like a manufacturing defect. I wonder if quality will suffer due to the rx330 being asembled in Canada rather than Japan.???????
i saw one on the road today,definetly looks bigger than rx300, overall, very nice, coming from an ex owner of rx300, but the back look bit too boxy for me. I noticed the rear lights/lenz ,, there were lot of lenzes but only the outer side lit up, the inside lenzes are only parking lights? some are clear and red.
I've now driven both the Performance Pkg (VP) and standard suspension models, and as you would expect there is a noticable difference in the ride/handling between the two. As you would expect, the VP's ride is quite a bit harsher over bumps and potholes, but it definitely handles better and provides better road feel. Fans of the traditional, smooth Lexus-like ride would probably be happier with the non-Sport models, but those who prefer more a Euro-like ride would appreciate the VP. But in our pot-holed and cracked roads, especially this time of year during the spring thaw, the standard suspension was definitely more comfortable for everyday driving. It also seemed quieter with less road noise. I suspect that most of this difference is due to the difference in the taller profile and less aggressive tread of the 17 inch tires vs. the 18 inchers on the VP. Hard to tell how much of the difference is due to the wheels/tires vs the air suspension. cfgross, I would be interested in your comments if you get a chance to drive the VP model, to see how you think it compares to the FX35, which is known to have a pretty stiff ride, even on the non-sport model.
In any case my wife and I are very impressed with the vehicle. I find it to be a significant step up from the RX300 that I took on an extended test drive two years ago. I would agree however that with the deals they are doing right now, the RX300 becomes very attractive - they are really anxious to clear them out.
I also wanted to point out that you can now configure and price the 330 on Lexus.com - at least in my area it matches the pricing that I'm getting from the local dealer (I wonder when edmunds.com will follow...)
One anomaly that doesn't show up though is that on the VP model, at least in our area, the only available color choices are black, mica grey and silver - all with black interiors, which I like in a sport edition model anyway but it's too bad they don't offer a wider selection.
yes, I expect is will have the same HVAC flaw as the RX300. But I have no doubt that my workaround method will work just as well on the 330 as it does on the 300.
During the winter months I open the refrigerant pressure sensor circuit, that prevents the compressor from being run altogether. And if/when I need defrost/defog/demist functionality I give the temperature setpoint control a quick clockwise spin and then activate the defrost/defog/demist function.
To prevent the system from switching to cooling mode I simply add a 2.8k ohm resistor in series with the OAT sensor during the colder months. Also helps enormously at bringing the vehicle up to setpoint more quickly.
Took delivery last Thursday on a Black/Black VP/NAV. So far, everything works and everything fits--just as I expected. No problem with roof rack rails (sounds like a dealer prep QC problem to me) and IMO the road/air noise is comparable to my GS3. BTW, for approximately the first six months, all 330s will be built in Japan.
The black exterior really works well with the 18' graphite wheels and the Lexus silver/aluminum plated grill and rear lettering. Inside the black also works well with the brush aluminum that encase the NAV/CD and the door/window controls areas. The walnut wood trim that comes with the black interior looks rich but understated (although I'm really impressed with the golden bird's-eye maple trim) and the seats are soft, supple, and very supportive. The one Lexus misstep here is that you can't get the wood trim steering wheel and shifting knob with the performance pkg--IMO they give the interior an even more luxurious look. The rear of the 330 is definitely different and serves as one of the most distinguishing features from the 300--but for me different is good and I like it.
The rearview camera along with the side mirrors that tilt down when backing up compensate very well for any rear blindspots and the HID headlamps with AFS provide superb visibility.
The air suspension option gives the driver some flexibility in chosing the type ride/handling he wishes to engage in. Comparing the 330 to the 300 that I test drove previously, the 330's ride feels much more road connected and responsive--even in the normal mode.
All-in-all, the 330 has met/exceeded my expectations. Even though I have an affinity for Lexus, I thoroughly researched several other competitors (particularly the MDX) before making my choice. I wouldn't have bought a 300 so the timing of the 330 was perfect for me. Putting it another way, if I had purchased something else prior to the 330 being introduced, I now would be disappointed--very, very disappointed.
adb3, just curious - with the VP, what ride height do you find best for normal driving? I didn't experiment with this too much during my test drive. To what extent can you set the height manually and then it will stay there (which settings will stay put at all speeds).
Also, with the sequential shift (tiptronic)transmission, which I did try out briefly, do you find that you have complete control over shift points, i.e. will it shift to the next gear automatically at a certain RPM if you don't move to the next gear manually? Also does it have a "sport mode" that raises the shift points for more spirited driving? (if so I didn't notice this feature, nor did the salesman point it out).
Between high, normal, and low I find normal works just fine for regular driving. And even in the N-mode when you get up to Hwy speeds, the air suspension automatically lowers the vehicle to provide better handling--although not as low as in the low-mode which you can set in manually at any speed. High-mode is really only for going over rough terrain at low speeds.
Frankly, I haven't tried the sequential shift yet. However, according to the manual this is how it works. D-mode is normally 4th gear so when you go over to S-mode you will initially be in 4th. You can then shift to 5th (overdrive), if you choose. You can then downshift to any gear (sequentially) that the vehicle speed will allow (if you try to shift to too low a gear a warning tone will sound and of course you could damage the transmission). The same warning will sound if you are upshifting and the vehicle speed exceeds the gear that you are in.
Here's what the 2004 manual says about it: "To prevent fogging up of the windshield, the air intake mode may change automatically to the OUTSIDE AIR mode depending on the condition of the a/c system.
For example, when the ambient temp is low, the air intake mode may change automatically to the OUTSIDE AIR mode. This is not a malfunction.
When the a/c is ON, if the engine coolant temp becomes extremely high, the RECIRCULATED AIR mode is automatically selected. This is not a malfunction. When the engine coolant temp is lowered, the previous mode resumes." It also notes that the a/c quits working as the outside temp decreases to around 32(F).
My vehicle was made in Japan and it's my understanding that the Ontario plant will not come on line until Sept. or so. If I could have been assured that I could have ordered a performance package before then, I would have done so.(our region won't be getting them for several months). Although the Acura MDX (my second choice) is made in Canada, I prefer to trust a vehicle made in Japan. later, ldf
I have heard rumors that they removed the spare tire from the back end and put it under the back end. Did any of you that test drove the 330 notice if this is true and if so, is the tire in the open or is it covered with something?
It would also be interesting to know what brand of tires are on the vehicle when comments are make about handling. Could the better handling on the test drive of the 330 equiped with air suspension be due to Michelins?? I've heard that they now come on some of the RX330's
I never did understand why the put crap tires on a vehicle this expensive.
I have the 18" aluminum wheels option. It came with Michelins, 255/55/R18 Energy MXV4, XSE tires rated 99V. The manual references either Michelins or Goodyears in their warranty section. I saw Michelin tires on the other three 330's at the dealer's. In my opinion, they are louder or noisier but handle just as well as Michelin Cross-Terrains I had on my other suv.
There is a full-sized spare with a cover shield located underneath the cargo area which you have to access from below the vehicle. later, ldf
Both the 17 and 18 inch wheels come with Michelins, at least in our area. There is a big difference in the appearance of the tread in each tire - the 18's are clearly designed with performance in mind, whereas the 17's appear to be more of an all-season touring tire. However, even the 18's are not an all-out performance tire - they are M&S rated and have a wear rating of over 400 (440 as I recall). Also, I think I read somewhere that the speed rating is only "H" which is typical for a M&S rated performance tire.
abd3, thanks for the suspension report. Interesting that you can manually set it to the lowest setting at any speed. From the advertising material I didn't know if this was just for loading/unloading duty when the car was stationary. My other car (that I will be keeping) is a 2001 Audi allroad which appears to be very similar in its approach. Its highest Level 4 setting provides a clearance of 8.2 inches, but it will automatically lower to Level 3 and then to Level 2 (normal) as the speed increases. You can, however, can manually set it to the lowest height (Level 1) and it will stay there if you wish. The Tiptronic transmission also appears to be very similar to the RX330.
Got a call from local dealer (San Diego) responding to my email inquiry. He said depending on how many 330s in stock he may offer unspecified discount off MSRP if I can wait until end of April.
He wants my refundable deposit by Mon so (he says)dealership will get larger allotment. Is this BS?
Anyone else feel there it's worth waiting a few weeks?
Comments
On many cars, including the very popular Accords and Camrys, the defroster mode will not work unless the AC is on and the air is fresh.
My coworker has driven an Accord for seven years and did not know this. He thought Honda just had a bad defroster system until I showed he was wrong. Don't dealers explain these things upon delivery?
I would bet that's what is to blame for the accident mentioned above. Especially since the girl was 16 - she probably had no idea how to clear up the windows and thought just putting on the defroster would work.
Exactly the experience I had, repeatedly, in my new 92 LS400. The 92 locked the A/C out at 34F OAT.
Almost all modern day (say 1985 and on) vehicles automatically activate the A/C in defrost/defog/demist mode. Such activation may very well have led directly to the young lady's problem. If she had previously used the A/C, (in a Lexus possibly even a few days before)maybe even unknowingly in defrost/defog/demist mode, the later incident of windshield fogging may have been the result of the A/C's earlier use.
Once the A/C is used a thin film of moisture will always remain on the surfaces of the A/C evaporator, like a time bomb.
The lower the ambient temperature is, the less efficient the A/C will be in "drying" that fresh incoming airflow, until at about 34F it's non-existant.
Hardly a good example of an engineering defect, no matter who made the HVAC system.
Tragic case of a 16 yr old not knowing to pull over and FIX the visibility problem and NOT keep driving at the same time. I would think with the weather in CT her Dad or somebody should have instructed her how to set the defrost CORRECTLY.
When I was about 20 and driving my sister's prized '66 TR4-A, I was stopped at a light and got rear-ended. The young girl's excuse? "My glasses were falling off so I reached up to fix them and they fell off so I was looking down at the floor to find them." Uh, ok.
I probably should have sued Ray-Ban, eh?
In late 1991 I was 51 years old, with 44 years of driving experience, and absolutely couldn't figure out how to make my 92 LS400 climate control system defog the windshield and keep it defogged.
Sitting in their nice cosy offices in Japan no engineer is going to have any idea how serious the matter is when I activate the defrost/defog/demist function in my car. Absent that capability what they should do is make the maximum effort to resolve my circumstance. Maximum heat and max blower, and then let me modulate those downward as I see fit.
In the meantime my LS now has a switch that fools the ECU into thinking it just got damn cold in the car when I activate defrost/defog/demist.
And unless they can figure a way to quickly and thoroughly dry the vanes of these very complex and dense modern day evaporators soon after I stop using the A/C then it should never be used in defog mode.
Fix the defrost controls.
Call a cab.
Use your sweater to wipe the inside moisture off.
Stick your head out the window, like Jim Carey in Pet Detective.
Just about anything...other than the dumbest move, to KEEP ON DRIVING.
Gosh Willard, you're always the one saying folks should take responsibility for their actions.
SEVEN MINUTES.
Amazing she didn't kill more folks - and herself.
The second time I was doing about 65 MPH on I5 in Tacoma southbound in the left lane with traffic all about. In that case I watched the nearby jersey barrier through the left window to maintain my lane position.
Depending on how much air the fan could move on "high", this has always Taken Care of The Problem in under a minute, more likely in less than half-a-minute. No matter what Pass I was driving through.
I'm probably confused and in way over my head on this topic...but is this pretty much the procedure you are describing as "The Fix" to the supposed Lexus/Denso HVAC engineering defect?
In a test I did, the 1992 LS400 evaporator held about a quart of water, as a very thin film of moisture, on its 10,000 square inches of surface area for more than two days. Sitting out in the open in the middle of a three bay garage with the average humdity at 40 to 50%
On my drive to the pass theh A/C operated until I reached a point wherein the outside temperature declined to about 34F, the point where the ECU shuts the A/C compressor off, opens the clutch circuit until the OAT rises again. After that the previously condensed "trapped" moisture was able to start evaporating into the car's incoming airstream.
In the meantime of course the interior surface of the windshield was growing colder and colder due to the outside cold airflow impinging at ~65MPH.
At some point I noticed that there were small wisps of condensation forming on the lower corners of the windshield and accordingly I activated the defrost function.
BLAM!
Suddenly my windshield was fully coated with fog and I had no forward visibility.
I turned up the blower. Things got worse.
I started toggling the heat setpoint upwards.
The small wisps of condensation that triggered the event was the result of "leakage" airflow from the defrost vents. Once I activated defrost then ALL of the HUMID airflow from the system was routed to my cold windshield surface.
Faster blower, MORE humid airflow.
I agree that the A/C can be of great help in defogging windshields and windows when the ambient is above 50F. I don't know what to say or do about these modern day systems with dense and complex A/C evaporators that hold moisture for days on end.
In the meantime I feel the safest thing to do is disable the A/C altogether during the winter months and remember to ALWAYS turn up the blower and the heat before activating the defrost function.
As the OAT declines below about 50F the ability of an A/C system to dehumidify the incoming air stream declines precipitously until near freezing where it is non-existant.
At the lower incoming air flow temperatures the A/C compressor circuit is even locked out and still T/L does not see fit to bring heating into play.
Dumb, absolutely DUMB!
And by through my own experience I can tell you that the second fogging incident of the day is ALWAYS much worse than the first. In my case the first was simply "activate defrost, windshield clears virtually immediately, return the system to normal operation". But now you have just "primed the pump", the evaporator surfaces are definitely now well covered with moisture.
Why aren't dozens of other folks, some that drive thru The Same Pass in The Same Japanese Vehicles, having the same KDP ("Killer Defrost Problem")?
If they did, I'm guessing that po' old dense Denso (sorry, couldn't help myself) engineer sitting in his Tokyo cubicle would have to hop a fast freight, drive The Pass, and discover KDP in all its glory.
The bottom line is that A/C, with heat & fresh air input, directed to the windshield, plus a window or two cracked open, solves this situation.
You lost the lawsuit on this topic and you keep reviving it in this forum. Guess that's understandable.
Hey, let's move up a few years, what happened to your contention last year about the CO2 concentration inside Lexus vehicles being poisionous because they don't pull in enough fresh air or something along those lines? Any AP stories on mysterious deaths among the Lexus owners? Not enough poison to stop you from buying your 4th or 5th Lexus?
Actually, if CO2 was present, that would explain some of your posts (:o)! LOL just kidding don't mean anything by it just a sad attempt at humor
"The bottom line is that A/C, with heat and fresh air input, directed to the windshield, plus a window or two cracked open, solves this problem."
Let's see, Toyota and Lexus disable the A/C ciruit, FULLY, below certain temperatures, not that it would be usefull anyway. And even with the A/C fully disabled they do not use heating to the windshield. Even their own manuals indicate that the airflow to the windshield in defrost mode can be up to 20F cooler than the heating airflow to the footwell outlets.
But the real bottom line is that when I buy a vehicle of/in this class I have a perfect right to expect not to have to go to extra measures (outside of extreme circumstances) to get features to work properly, especially features that worked well, and as expected, on cars of lower class and less expense.
That 16 year old may have been inexperienced, but she did exactly what most of us would do in the circumstance. Who among us wouldn't become confused and/or puzzled if the windshield became suddenly more fogged over upon activating the defrost function?
At the ripe old age of 16 would either you or I have known what to try next? I think not.
Seven minutes? How about 5 seconds of not seeing out?
I knew that one when I was six years old, let alone sixteen.
Oh, I also noticed that there wasn't any fog on the windshield, that can happen in Germany a lot.
Can't wait to drive one.
A real tragedy, with one young person dead and three more injured, one seriously. An inexperienced 16-yr old driver now full of guilt, fumbling around an unfamiliar dash layout, edging closer to the shoulder to keep away from oncoming headlight glare in the fog...bad news all around.
Right, Willard? You get the last word.
Thanks for the link, Squack.
Thanks for the link, interesting to see the 16 year was trying to take the correct action.
Our focus should be on why the defrost function didn't work as all of us have reason to expect, not the immaturity and/or lack of life's experience of the driver.
Turning on the defroster would not solve that particular problem. By the time she realized that the wipers were needed, she was already upon the pedestrians.
She turned on her wipers and "the next thing she heard was a large thud...." (see below)
"The teen put on her windshield wipers to be able to see the oncoming car lights and road lines, according to the warrant. "The next thing she heard was a large thud from the front corner of her vehicle," the warrant said.
I wish her the best.
I have had condensation form on the outside surface of my windshield but it was a very humid July evening near Birmingham Alabama, had just driven through a rainstorm, and we had driven all afternoon of a very hot day without realizing that the A/C was on and the system was inadvertantly partially in defrost mode.
A Porsche 996 design flaw.
I just can't imagine that happening in Conn. as late as the 28th of Sept. and as late as 11PM.
"There but for a stroke of luck go I".
The circumstances are exactly as I have encountered too many times back in late 91 and early 92 in my then new 92 LS400. And I was extremely lucky in that it never happened to me at night.
Before you're too quick to criticize the girl take a few moments and think about what your first action/reaction would be if your headlights suddenly failed on a dark night.
Pull to the right to stop, maybe?
Or would you first check to make sure you hadn't bumped the light switch off?
But in the above case I would bet that the A/C compressor circuit was opened by the control system just a few minutes before the accident.
Driving through cold, damp air will cause moisture to condense on the windshield, and as you've stated, it can happen in warm, damp air, too.
Please provide evidence that supports the obviousness of your statement.
Thanks for summing-up the intelligence level of your position on this matter. Please go back to posting boring letters you've sent to Lexus Customer Relations about defective AWD systems or if chains fit or why the factory can't wire the heated seats properly.
Right, let's just forget any personal responsibility for our own actions; instead, let's just blame the vehicle manufacturer.
She drove BLIND for seven minutes. Yup, sue GM.
Uh...by the way...speaking of personal responsibilities...remember earlier today, in post #153, when Kreskin somehow KNEW the real reason behind the accident - "...but you can bet the HVAC design was by Denso."
Care to offer any apology to our Denso engineer buddy in that cubicle in Tokyo?
I thought not.
Over time, everyone on these boards learns to skip past certain posts. Until Edmunds implements an optional filter, I think the host's advice, just use the down arrow, makes a lot of sense.
To paraphrase the cliche about wrestling with pigs, when you get in a flame war with another poster whose posts reflect points of view that are (to be polite) odd, you both get dirty and only the other poster enjoys it.
If you skim other Edmunds forums, you'll see that Willard (wwest) spends an awful lot of time posting "definitive" information. That seems to be his thing. Very casual readers of these boards may be confused by some of what he says. But, over time or if anyone reads multiple wwest posts, I think they get the picture.
It's not worth it.
...or is it the dreaded "right turn"? Perhaps her parents should sue Connecticut/Denso for designing right turns that cause increased windshield fogging. There's just as much evidence to support that claim.
"as they were driving the front windshield was fogged up, and it was difficult to see through it"
"As she drove up the road her front windshield began to fog up"
"Jarzabek stated that she then made a right turn, and the windshield began to fog up even more"
"she slowed down and looked down to activate the front defroster," the warrant said. "She then reported that as she looked back through the front window she noticed that the fog was even worse"
"The teen put on her windshield wipers to be able to see the oncoming car lights and road lines", according to the warrant. "The next thing she heard was a large thud from the front corner of her vehicle"
PS. Build your own RX 330 now at:
http://www.lexus.com/years_ahead_index.html
"Mr. West, please tell the court of all the '97 GMC Suburbans you've owned."
"Oh...Please, then, tell the court how many GMC trucks you've owned"?
"Oh really, well then, Ms. Jarzabek stated that she made a right turn, and the windshield began to fog up even more. Please explain how turning right causes windshields to fog up?
No further questions, your honor, the prosecution rests.
tidester, host
Thanks
When we got back, a truck was in the process of unloading 5 new RX330's. 4 were already sold and one was tagged as a dealer demo. We liked the looks (the bird's eye maple in the tan interior is gorgeous), and asked them to call us when the demo was prepped and ready to drive.
Tuesday evening we went back to drive it. I liked it much better than the 300. It was much less spongy and handled much better. Acceleration was very good, as was cornering (it had the optional 18" wheels). I still liked the ride of the FX-35 non-sport better, but it's for my wife and she likes the RX330 better.
They told me that they already had 30-40 names on the wait list, and that the price was full MSRP (which I expected). As we are in no particular hurry, we'll wait until the initial furor dies down and then go get one.
Craig
I can't compare it to the 300's but it compares very favorably to the 2000 M-B ML 430 we traded in for it, both in performance and most definitely in the ergometrics and quality of the interior, especially the seats. The vehicle has so many features that the operators manual is telephone-book size ! later, ldf
The roof rack rail popping up sounds like a manufacturing defect. I wonder if quality will suffer due to the rx330 being asembled in Canada rather than Japan.???????
Perhaps those lucky devils that have already taken delivery can check under the hood and note country of origin.
In any case my wife and I are very impressed with the vehicle. I find it to be a significant step up from the RX300 that I took on an extended test drive two years ago. I would agree however that with the deals they are doing right now, the RX300 becomes very attractive - they are really anxious to clear them out.
One anomaly that doesn't show up though is that on the VP model, at least in our area, the only available color choices are black, mica grey and silver - all with black interiors, which I like in a sport edition model anyway but it's too bad they don't offer a wider selection.
During the winter months I open the refrigerant pressure sensor circuit, that prevents the compressor from being run altogether. And if/when I need defrost/defog/demist functionality I give the temperature setpoint control a quick clockwise spin and then activate the defrost/defog/demist function.
To prevent the system from switching to cooling mode I simply add a 2.8k ohm resistor in series with the OAT sensor during the colder months. Also helps enormously at bringing the vehicle up to setpoint more quickly.
The black exterior really works well with the 18' graphite wheels and the Lexus silver/aluminum plated grill and rear lettering. Inside the black also works well with the brush aluminum that encase the NAV/CD and the door/window controls areas. The walnut wood trim that comes with the black interior looks rich but understated (although I'm really impressed with the golden bird's-eye maple trim) and the seats are soft, supple, and very supportive. The one Lexus misstep here is that you can't get the wood trim steering wheel and shifting knob with the performance pkg--IMO they give the interior an even more luxurious look. The rear of the 330 is definitely different and serves as one of the most distinguishing features from the 300--but for me different is good and I like it.
The rearview camera along with the side mirrors that tilt down when backing up compensate very well for any rear blindspots and the HID headlamps with AFS provide superb visibility.
The air suspension option gives the driver some flexibility in chosing the type ride/handling he wishes to engage in. Comparing the 330 to the 300 that I test drove previously, the 330's ride feels much more road connected and responsive--even in the normal mode.
All-in-all, the 330 has met/exceeded my expectations. Even though I have an affinity for Lexus, I thoroughly researched several other competitors (particularly the MDX) before making my choice. I wouldn't have bought a 300 so the timing of the 330 was perfect for me. Putting it another way, if I had purchased something else prior to the 330 being introduced, I now would be disappointed--very, very disappointed.
Also, with the sequential shift (tiptronic)transmission, which I did try out briefly, do you find that you have complete control over shift points, i.e. will it shift to the next gear automatically at a certain RPM if you don't move to the next gear manually? Also does it have a "sport mode" that raises the shift points for more spirited driving? (if so I didn't notice this feature, nor did the salesman point it out).
Thanks for any comments...
Frankly, I haven't tried the sequential shift yet. However, according to the manual this is how it works. D-mode is normally 4th gear so when you go over to S-mode you will initially be in 4th. You can then shift to 5th (overdrive), if you choose. You can then downshift to any gear (sequentially) that the vehicle speed will allow (if you try to shift to too low a gear a warning tone will sound and of course you could damage the transmission). The same warning will sound if you are upshifting and the vehicle speed exceeds the gear that you are in.
There is no "sports mode" in the 330.
Hope this helps.
"To prevent fogging up of the windshield, the air intake mode may change automatically to the OUTSIDE AIR mode depending on the condition of the a/c system.
For example, when the ambient temp is low, the air intake mode may change automatically to the OUTSIDE AIR mode. This is not a malfunction.
When the a/c is ON, if the engine coolant temp becomes extremely high, the RECIRCULATED AIR mode is automatically selected. This is not a malfunction. When the engine coolant temp is lowered, the previous mode resumes." It also notes that the a/c quits working as the outside temp decreases to around 32(F).
My vehicle was made in Japan and it's my understanding that the Ontario plant will not come on line until Sept. or so. If I could have been assured that I could have ordered a performance package before then, I would have done so.(our region won't be getting them for several months). Although the Acura MDX (my second choice) is made in Canada, I prefer to trust a vehicle made in Japan. later, ldf
It would also be interesting to know what brand of tires are on the vehicle when comments are make about handling. Could the better handling on the test drive of the 330 equiped with air suspension be due to Michelins?? I've heard that they now come on some of the RX330's
I never did understand why the put crap tires on a vehicle this expensive.
In my opinion, they are louder or noisier but handle just as well as Michelin Cross-Terrains I had on my other suv.
There is a full-sized spare with a cover shield located underneath the cargo area which you have to access from below the vehicle. later, ldf
abd3, thanks for the suspension report. Interesting that you can manually set it to the lowest setting at any speed. From the advertising material I didn't know if this was just for loading/unloading duty when the car was stationary. My other car (that I will be keeping) is a 2001 Audi allroad which appears to be very similar in its approach. Its highest Level 4 setting provides a clearance of 8.2 inches, but it will automatically lower to Level 3 and then to Level 2 (normal) as the speed increases. You can, however, can manually set it to the lowest height (Level 1) and it will stay there if you wish. The Tiptronic transmission also appears to be very similar to the RX330.
He wants my refundable deposit by Mon so (he says)dealership will get larger allotment. Is this BS?
Anyone else feel there it's worth waiting a few weeks?